The Sword of Seals - Roy Moveset + Frame Data (incomplete)

[Psyruby]

I've never gotten Link's Ftilt to clank, but that may have to do with the range compared to Roy's.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait so what is the term for this phenomenon?

I forgot to post this here, but I had a similar effect happen to me vs a Roy. I was Marth and when I attacked his Fsmash, they should have clanked, but he absorbed it (it showed the little bubble animation) and I got hit. Seemed to be partial invincibility.

This happened again while challenging...I forgot what, but another one of Roy's normals.

Another weird OP thing with Roy is the crazy huge shield push-back he gets with his sweetspots.

 

[Doval]

Wait so what is the term for this phenomenon?

I forgot to post this here, but I had a similar effect happen to me vs a Roy. I was Marth and when I attacked his Fsmash, they should have clanked, but he absorbed it (it showed the little bubble animation) and I got hit. Seemed to be partial invincibility.

It's just clanking. If the difference in % between the hit boxes is greater than 8% the stronger move keeps going and the weak attack gets canceled. Otherwise they both get canceled. Attacks that don't clank are the exception, not the norm. Even Samus's Charge Shot is clankable, but at 25% few characters have strong enough attacks to stop it.

Here's a bit of miscellaneous frame data:

Jump squat: 5 frames (airborne on 6)
Jump landing lag: 2 frames
Dash to dash (foxtrot): 15 frames (next dash starts on 16)
Dash and shield ASAP: Shield comes out on 17
Dash and return to neutral: 27 frames (act on 28)
Return to neutral from a full run: 15 frames (act on 16)

I find it very interesting that Roy's dash attack is almost as laggy as his F-smash. Considering you can do his F-smash straight out of a foxtrot and it'll do more damage and has more range, I'm questioning the dash attack's usefulness. You can also do an F-tilt out of a foxtrot by pivoting (or if you're really good, a down tilt by pivoting twice). And of course there's also Side B which is probably the quickest option of all.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's just clanking. If the difference in % between the hit boxes is greater than 8% the stronger move keeps going and the weak attack gets canceled. Otherwise they both get canceled. Attacks that don't clank are the exception, not the norm. Even Samus's Charge Shot is clankable, but at 25% few characters have strong enough attacks to stop it.

I know how clanking works. I used moves that were within the clanking range. I remember taking note of that. It has to be partial invincibility.

 

[Doval]

I know how clanking works. I used moves that were within the clanking range. I remember taking note of that. It has to be partial invincibility.

You wouldn't see the bubble if it were partial invincibility. Starman item and respawning aside, stuff doesn't touch you when moves make you invincible.

Roy's F-smash does 20% sweet spotted, so it'e very possible he just beat your attack, especially if you didn't sweet spot yours.

 

[Vipermoon]

You wouldn't see the bubble if it were partial invincibility. Starman item and respawning aside, stuff doesn't touch you when moves make you invincible.

Roy's F-smash does 20% sweet spotted, so it'e very possible he just beat your attack, especially if you didn't sweet spot yours.

I can't remember exactly what move it was. It could have been my own Fsmash which does 13% and that could have been stale while his possibly fresh. But it also could have been a back air which isn't supposed to clank with anything since it's an aerial

 

[manrangan]

So, I found something interesting about the hitbox on Roy's ledge get up attack. (if that's what you call it)

It's kind of hilarious, really. I'm not sure if this will work on others besides Donkey Kong, but I doubt we'll see this happening a lot in tournament play and such.

 

[Chiroz]

So, I found something interesting about the hitbox on Roy's ledge get up attack. (if that's what you call it)

It's kind of hilarious, really. I'm not sure if this will work on others besides Donkey Kong, but I doubt we'll see this happening a lot in tournament play and such.

Other chars (like Mario and Ryu) also have that. Depending on the hitbox of the getup attack it actually works on many chars as long as their slightly above the ledge. It's not a reliable thing you should be aiming to land but it will land every once in a while.

 

[Vipermoon]

Here's a bit of miscellaneous frame data:

Jump squat: 5 frames (airborne on 6)
Jump landing lag: 2 frames
Dash to dash (foxtrot): 15 frames (next dash starts on 16)
Dash and shield ASAP: Shield comes out on 17
Dash and return to neutral: 27 frames (act on 28)
Return to neutral from a full run: 15 frames (act on 16)

Dash to Shield should be 16 frames. Did you wait till you saw the actual shield? Because the shield shows up in the animation on frame 2. But shields are truly frame 1 so dash to shield should be 16.

 

[Doval]

Dash to Shield should be 16 frames. Did you wait till you saw the actual shield? Because the shield shows up in the animation on frame 2. But shields are truly frame 1 so dash to shield should be 16.

I didn't, I'm aware of the frame 2 shield animation weirdness. I recorded four dash-shields and the capture card seems to have a dropped a frame on one of them, but the other three lasted 16 frames with the shield out on 17.

I've uploaded the videos (which are much smaller than the individual frames) to Google Drive. You can split them into frames with ffmpeg from the command line to verify them yourself.

Either

1. Press [Windows Key]
2. Search for Command Prompt or cmd.exe
3. Type cd "<path to videos folder>" (hint: Ctrl+V doesn't work, use right-click to paste)

or

1. Browse to the videos folder
2. [Shift] + [Right-click] on an empty space
3. Select Open command window here

And then type (for example)

• ffmpeg -i dash_shield.avi %06d.bmp

My capture card does drop frames every now and then but I generally record the same action at least twice to verify. These are recorded off the Wii U's S-video output.

 

[Vipermoon]

I didn't, I'm aware of the frame 2 shield animation weirdness. I recorded four dash-shields and the capture card seems to have a dropped a frame on one of them, but the other three lasted 16 frames with the shield out on 17.

I've uploaded the videos to Google Drive. You can split them into frames with ffmpeg from the command line to verify them yourself:

1. [Windows Key] > Search for 'Command Prompt' or 'cmd.exe'
2. cd <videos folder>
3. ffmpeg -i dash_shield.avi dash_shield_%06d.bmp

My capture card does drop frames every now and then but I generally record the same action at least twice to verify. These are recorded off the Wii U's S-video output.

Thank you. Sorry about that, it was under the impression it was sooner.

 

[Zeallyx]

After using a SH Fair, Roy is mobile just before the landing lag starts. This means Roy can use any move after the SH Fair right as he lands, plus Roy can jump before landing+any move for even more follow-up possibilities. This means:

- Roy can use his aerial with the least landing lag right after a SH Fair to substitute Fair's landing lag with the lesser landing lag of said aerial (I believe this is Nair or Uair). Basically Roy can use every aerial right before landing after a SH Fair (I recommend not using Dair though, nor another Fair for that matter);
- Roy can jump before landing after a SH Fair and use any move during this jump;
- Roy can side b right as he lands after a SH Fair;
- Roy can use a neutral b right as he lands after a SH Fair;
- Roy can use blazer (up b) right before he lands after a SH Fair;
- Roy can counter (down b) just as he lands after a SH Fair (if you hold down right after initiating the Fair to avoid fastfalling).

This all makes Fair a way safer (approach and spacing) option: lag substitution with Nair/Uair makes Roy mobile sooner, jumping right after a SH Fair avoids shieldgrabs + is a combo setup and attacking right after a SH Fair (using side b for example) makes way for shield pressure mixups and other combo's.

As for potential combo's at lower percents for sweetspotted Fairs:
- SH Fair->immediate side b (all four hits potentially)
- SH Fair->immediate (reversed) blazer (up b);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->(dash) grab;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Jab;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Dtilt;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Ftilt;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Utilt;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->grab;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->SH immediate Nair;
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Dash Attack.

As for potential combo's at mid percents for sweetspotted Fairs:
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Fsmash (if they miss the tech);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Dsmash (if they miss the tech);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->Dash Attack (if they miss the tech);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->SH Fair (if they miss the tech);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->SH Dair (if they miss the tech);
- SH Fair->Nair lag substitution->SH turn-around Bair (if they miss the tech).

As for potential combo's at higher percents for sweetspotted Fairs:
- SH Fair->immediate (sideways) up b;
- SH Fair->jump->Fair;
- SH Fair->jump->side b.

For non-sweetspotted Fairs the lower and mid percent potential combo's for sweetspotted Fairs seem to work up to higher percents, along with setting up tech chase situations in which Roy is mobile sooner (when Fair's landing lag is substituted with Nair's landing lag, for example).

Let's call this Zeal Canceling.

 

[RoyNowBoyNow]

Hi fellow Roy mains, been learning the wavebounce blade tonight and been having great fun. I've got a question though; is it possible to do with c stick set to smash as opposed to tilt? L as special and c stick as tilt is working but I can't seem to get L as special and c stick as smash to work. I can do it about 60% of the time atm so it could just be me being unlucky with my attempts when swapping controls.

 

[Chiroz]

Hi fellow Roy mains, been learning the wavebounce blade tonight and been having great fun. I've got a question though; is it possible to do with c stick set to smash as opposed to tilt? L as special and c stick as tilt is working but I can't seem to get L as special and c stick as smash to work. I can do it about 60% of the time atm so it could just be me being unlucky with my attempts when swapping controls.

It is not possible to do it in that way with C-Stick set to Smash, it must be set to Tilts.

It is possible to do it without the C-Stick at all, but only in the air. In the ground trying to do it without the C-Stick will cause your char to go into Pivot animation which doesn't allow you to input any attack but F-Tilt/F-Smash.

 

[DarkDeity15]

No thank you. Call it something that doesn't have your name in it. Seriously?

 

[Pedker]

No thank you. Call it something that doesn't have your name in it. Seriously?

Most discoveries are named after the person who discovered them lol. Whatever though

 

[Chiroz]

This isn't a discovery, this has been known since 3DS days. Also I think you can't do it with Roy's F-Air because it's less than 4 frames.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Great post. This property means that the move has IASA frames; I think Zero mentioned it in his video on Roy.

 

[Chiroz]

Great post. This property means that the move has IASA frames; I think Zero mentioned it in his video on Roy.

All moves have IASA because that just means the frame when you can move. What this means is that this move has IASA frames before its Auto Cancel frames, so it's better to do another action instead of landing.

 

[WakerofWinds]

All moves have IASA because that just means the frame when you can move. What this means is that this move has IASA frames before its Auto Cancel frames, so it's better to do another action instead of landing.

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you for clarifying for everyone else!

 

[Chiroz]

That's exactly what I meant. Thank you for clarifying for everyone else!

Still in order to replace the landing lag there needs to be enough frames before landing to perform the other move, I think there aren't enough frames but I haven't actually tested myself yet.

F-Air to Side-B and F-Air to Up-B were already said in the discussion thread of Roy's moveset too. There is literally 0 new information here and I honestly don't like people pretentious enough to try and name something after themselves (Specially something that isn't new).

 

[WakerofWinds]

Still in order to replace the landing lag there needs to be enough frames before landing to perform the other move, I think there aren't enough frames but I haven't actually tested myself yet.

F-Air to Side-B and F-Air to Up-B were already said in the discussion thread of Roy's moveset too. There is literally 0 new information here and I honestly don't like people pretentious enough to try and name something after themselves (Specially something that isn't new).

Not sure why you quoted me for that. But anyway, I think you can jump before you hit the ground, which might be a decent option every once in awhile.

 

[Chiroz]

Not sure why you quoted me for that. But anyway, I think you can jump before you hit the ground, which might be a decent option every once in awhile.

Yea you can jump, Side-B, Neutral-B, Down-B and Up-B. I don't know if you can do an aerial to replace the lag though. The quote wasn't meant for you to be honest .

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Zeal cancelling? Really?

Tbh it doesn't need a name. It's something we all figured out pretty much the second we tried out Roy. That'd be like calling jumping Zeal Gliding or something stupid like that. Or shielding tilting Badger Blocking.

 

[Hiimmas]

DED first swing frame data?

 

[Gawain]

People have known about this since day 1. I'm not calling it after some person. I despise this trend in this community. It's pompous and obnoxious, and not every little tiny detail needs some kind of super special name. You're just performing an action in the IASA of fair. That's all it is.

 

[Zeallyx]

Calm down guys, I was kidding: I had hoped the wording and the Roy emote made that clear. Who cares about the name or whether it's entirely new, it's about the uses of this. I'm hyped for less laggy Fairs.

 

[Guineapig126]

Not sure if anyone has stated this yet, but using this you can true combo F-Air into specials at low percents. Nice.

EDIT: Before anyone misunderstands me, I meant that the true combo part is important. It's inescapable.

 

[Zeallyx]

Not sure if anyone has stated this yet, but using this you can true combo F-Air into specials at low percents. Nice.

EDIT: Before anyone misunderstands me, I meant that the true combo part is important. It's inescapable.

Exactly!

This thread is mainly for putting this in the spotlight and for providing an overview of the things this makes possible, new and old.
This alone makes SH Fair a way better option and I thought that this deserves it's own compendium of options and combo's, it's own discussion and, thus, it's own thread. I didn't expect you all to jump on that last sentence in the opening post, lol.

This hyped me up so much, because after playing Roy for the first times a few days ago I felt Roy had amazing potential. I told my friend: ''All Roy could possibly hope for to make him even better is less landing lag on his SH Fair". So when I was messing around with Roy in training mode yesterday and I stumbled upon a way to make this reality (by Nairing during the IASA frames just before Roy lands) I got really excited. Of course I was aware that this might not be new, but imo it's that big of a deal to still warrant it's own thread and discussion even if it's already been noted before. Too bad I possibly wasn't the first to note this, but I do seem to be the first to make a thread about it that can serve as a compendium of it's uses.

Also, though Fair's IASA frames have been noted, I haven't heard about the specific option of substituting Nair's landing lag with Fair's landing lag, so I might have contributed something in the end, as that's mainly what I was talking about, also when I jokingly named it: that specific use of the IASA frames (the substituting Fair's landing lag with Nair's landing lag).

Can you guys re-read the opening post WITHOUT jumping on the last sentence and join in on the Roy hype this all makes possible? We're all here to progress Roy's metagame and to contribute to that goal, and I was trying to do just that.

So, let's start Zeal canceling consistently for (even) better results
jk

 

[Vipermoon]

DED first swing frame data?

The first swing hitboxes come out on frames 7-9 and you can input the second swing starting on frame 10. IASA is frame 42.

 

[Hype_knight]

I don't know if this is any help (and I'm not even sure what even happened in this clip), but I think Roy's Usmash has a spike

https://youtu.be/0eWvxzbzCsI

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Meh. Still not a big deal to me, I've been doing all of this with Marth since day one.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just like Melee. Yay.

 

[Zeallyx]

Meh. Still not a big deal to me, I've been doing all of this with Marth since day one.

Marth can't do this: Marth is stuck with having to land and experiencing Fair's landing lag after using a SH Fair.

 

[DailyDose]

Roy is able to act out of Fair earlier than Marth before hitting the ground (frame 29 for Roy, frame 38 for Marth), but Marth's floatiness means he is still able to act out of SH Fair before he hits the ground, and Fair auto cancels by that time too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but Roy has super armor on his Uspecial for about a frame on the ground and nowhere else. Put some bombs on a platform and try it yourself.

And has everybody been DIing correctly here in SSB4? Because trying to DI like you used to is usually the absolute worst thing you can do. Aim for the corners exclusively with left and right for survival, and up or up and out to escape combos.

 

[Chiroz]

So ummmm, Roy's up-B and people who are about the grab the ledge create a super stage spike even at 0%. I was playing a Falcon and I hit his Up-B with mine right as he was about to grab the edge. Falcon was around 30% and he got stage spiked and traveled faster than if Ganon would have spiked him, it was incredibly fast. It was so jarring we both screamed: "wtf?".

I've done this 2 more times since, it's very strong because it's unrecoverable even at very low %s (haven't tested 0% but it might be too). It's either they tech or die by the looks of it.

 

[guedes the brawler]

mindgames: condition an oppoinent to expect dthrow->jab->ftilt but after a few times end it with Fsmash isntead of f-tilt.

far from a true combo, but they will probably expect the ftilt and do nothing

 

[MarioMeteor]

mindgames: condition an oppoinent to expect dthrow->jab->ftilt but after a few times end it with Fsmash isntead of f-tilt.

far from a true combo, but they will probably expect the ftilt and do nothing

Most of the time, if you down throw > empty short hop, they'll air dodge on instinct, in which case forward smash is guarenteed.

 

[Oblivion129]

The first swing hitboxes come out on frames 7-9 and you can input the second swing starting on frame 10. IASA is frame 42.

Do you know the IASA frames of all his DED hits?