1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

The Solution: An Ice Climbers Guide to Non-Grab Skillz by choknater

Discussion in 'Ice Climbers' started by choknater, Aug 9, 2007.

  1. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,288
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    Let's face it. Tournaments are starting to ban the wobble. Everyone who's anyone knows how to avoid grabs, smash-DI out of dair chain throws, get away from wavesmashes, spam aerials, and kill Nana. Combine all these strategies and you can create an Ice Climbers counter-strategy with virtually any character. Even Sheik and Falco, long considered the worst characters to use against ICs, now have ways to fight back through spamming and clever spacing. Certain matchups like Fox and Marth have become nearly impossible to conquer because their offensive prowls are too strong, and it's too difficult to penetrate. More often than not, you will find Nana dead in two hits; the opponent doesn't even care about Popo during their aggression. They know the drill (no pun intended.)

    I'm here to tell you it's not impossible. To show you how to reach out past the bread-and-butter grab/smash IC strategies, to teach you how to fight.

    To celebrate my 3,000th post, I'm going to service the ICs community with a guide on how to win matches without having to grab. I'll try to make it easy to read, and lead it with many lists and questions. Hence, solutions.

    Question: How do I beat an opponent using ICs when he's not letting me grab?

    And now, here's what I call,

    THE SOLUTION

    by choknater​


    DISCLAIMER: Be warned, I will not be talking about ANY grab strategies during this guide. They're all covered in other threads, so there's no point. If you want to learn about grabs, don't look here.

    Contents
    I - Know your opponent. He's thinking "Don't get grabbed."
    II - Your hammers are your arsenal
    II.B - What, ICE?! Info on Blocks and Blizzards.
    III - Combos
    III.B - Popo Combos
    IV - Spacing
    V - choknater stuff
    VI - Some final words


    I - Know your opponent. He's thinking "Don't get grabbed."

    Sure enough, there's a reason IC players grab a lot. Grabs set up a number of things:
    - combos
    - heavy damage
    - desynch combos
    - chain grabs, in all their overrated, escapable glory
    - instant death

    And sure enough, the smart opponent is doing all he can to avoid it. (Note: You're probably going to win anyway if you are playing an opponent who doesn't.) Opponents will reconsider rushing in with an aerial for fear of a shield grab. They will keep their distance. If they are floaty, they will stay in the air so they can't get grabbed. If they have a weapon, they will space you just enough so they can hit your shield without getting grabbed. If they have a projectile, they will spam it. If they are easily killed, they will camp. If they are fast, they will spam your shield because it's safe to do so. If they are Peach, they will keep dsmashing so you can't grab her, let alone her float cancels.

    That pretty much covers all the characters. Any character can create an anti-grab strategy against the ICs.

    Take this strategy, for example: Ice Climbers vs. Mr. Game & Watch

    GW knows he can hit your shield safely because all his moves have disjointed hitboxes. His fair and dtilt can outrange the hammers and separate you from Nana. He knows that if he messes up, the IC might attempt to get a quick wavesmash on him, so he readies his dtilt to stop any incoming wavedash attempt. This also helps him get away from grabs. His jab spam is also good at close range because it can safely poke his way to safety from being grabbed. If the GW stays aggressive enough to avoid grabs but also keeps the IC at bay in order to stay away from wavesmashes, he should maintain an advantage throughout the match. Despite his tier standing, the matchup should be pretty even.

    Another example: Ice Climbers vs. Falco

    For Falco, getting grabbed means death. If he survives a grab, he can thank God for saving him, because the IC player probably messed up. Grab desynch combos are just too good in this matchup, so he must find ways of his own to avoid grabs. *ding! a light bulb!* Grab them before they grab me! Falco's fthrow can do wonders against IC because it smacks them both. This can nullify many attempts to grab Falco because many IC players reflexively try to grab him in certain close-range situations. Falco is able to grab first and fthrow, which both separates them and allows him to spam more lasers. Laser grabbing, laser to jab, and laser to shine are all grab-safe. Ftilt is also a great move because it can outrange, avoid grabs, and potentially separate. Once they are separated, continue the pillars combos as usual, and fsmash/bair/spike Nana to her doom. Sadly, Popo alone gets annihilated by Falco unless Popo can pull off a godly combo. More often than not, Falco will pull off that combo before Popo can.

    So in this case, even a character considered to be dead meat for IC players can strategize. I've had my own experiences against Zhu, Forward, and Bombsoldier to vouch. This may be a generalization, but good Falcos tend to learn what and what not to do very quickly. This is because Falco is an aggressive character, so a good player's mistake that once proved fatal won't be made again.

    So what do you do if you can't grab your opponent? Well, you use your hands to grab... but what's in your hands?

    II - Your hammers are your arsenal

    Ah, it's a couple of huge mallets.

    There are certain properties about the hammers that you should know about:
    - You have a weapon in your hand, just like Marth, Roy, the Links, and GW. What does that mean? Disjointed hitboxes. For those of you who don't know what those are, they're hitboxes that aren't connected to the opponent (all weapons/projectiles, Mario's fsmash, Zelda's kicks, and many more). IC's moves have HUGE priority because they're disjointed, albeit they are sometimes difficult to hit with. For moves like bair and ftilt, you need a ton of accuracy and practice... but it pays off.

    - The hammers hit hard. And more often than not, they will hit twice. Never forget the fact that you're hitting twice (you are also getting hit twice, but that's not the issue.) Hitting twice means fewer openings for the opponent, plus you can desynch. Sometimes, recklessly attacking shields can be a good thing if you know that they don't have many options to counter, and you can whittle down crappy shields that way. Light shielders are pushed away. The smashes deal heavy damage, especially when charged. 15% per hammer is a lot.

    - Spacing must be dead on. Know the exact length of the hammers and how to space accordingly. If you are too close or too far, your combos may be broken for bad spacing, wrong knockback trajectory, or a miss. WD is IC's spacing tool, so master perfect WDs, wavelands, short WDs, and how to attack from a WD. I will go deeper into spacing in a later section.

    - Approaching is key in SSBM. Since you know the hammers are disjointed, hard-hitting, and have good range especially with the WD, you have many choices to approach. IC's can definitely be played aggressively. Use all the spacing and punishing mindgames you can think of in order to effectively approach, because you have a lot of options.
    - wavesmashes
    - dash attacking, it comes out very fast and very far
    - WD to aerial, fair and bair especially
    - uair from underneath
    - dair on floaties (it's great, trust me.)
    Unfortunately, ICs are at a terrible disadvantage when above the opponent. The only moves that can hit below them are the dair, fair, and ice block. All three are ridiculously punishable. Either stay level with or below your opponent.

    Here are some noteworthy moves, and how to use them in certain situations:
    Dsmash - Comes out fast. Extremely fast. The perfect WD move, the perfect mistake-punisher. It's also great for punishing techs, especially when the opponent ends up behind you and you can't grab them.
    Uair - Also very fast, and lasts a long time. If used on the first jump, a double jump can be used for any other aerial. For opponents on platforms, it can safely be spammed from below just to keep them on top. Think Marth.
    Dair - Great for floaties because of its damage. I can't stress this enough. Just don't get CC'd.
    Dash attack - As aforementioned, a great approach move. Sets up usmash, utilt, and uair, your tools for keeping opponents on top. Sets up other aerials. For fast fallers, it sets up grabs. If they DI, it can set up another dash attack. Nifty move, eh?
    Bair - Fast and strong. (Fun fact: strong enough to stop Yoshi's double jump.) It is practically a smash, but loads faster. This is your primary killer, aerial-wise.

    What about the projectiles? They put the "ICE" in Ice Climbers!

    II.B - What, ICE?! Info on Blocks and Blizzards

    These two moves are the only projectiles that IC have. And, well, they're not very good. They're slow, and they do meager damage. I would use them sparingly. Synched or desynched.

    Here are some pluses:
    - Ice blocks can prevent camping. That little piece of damage is enough to tell your opponent not to stand there, and maybe start an approach of his own. They do not, however, prevent platform camping.
    - The synched blizzard can save you from many approaches from front and back. ESPECIALLY against Captain Falcon's short hop approaches. It'll stop him in his tracks... but only use it if you absolutely know he's going to approach. Tricky situation here: it's way too punishable to be safe, but it'll help you in clutch defensive situations. Never forget about the blizzard.
    - Desynched blizzard is pretty good defensively. Roll back or spot dodge, then begin using desynched blocks and blizzards. This is the most popular desynch for a reason.
    - Ice blocks trade damage with Falco during his laser spamming.
    - The hammer part of the neutral-b can be used easily from the dthrow, which can set up interestingly flashy (and easy) chain throws and/or combos.
    - Double blizzard is damaging. This is done by doing a blizzard in the air with both ICs.
    - Both can be used to edgeguard.
    - Like Doc's pill, an Ice block can be used during a high recovery to distract your opponent.
    - Remember that they can freeze at high damages. Don't forget it. Much like Yoshi's egg lay, smashing an opponent while he's frozen racks up huge damage. Popping out of the ice sets him up for an attack that can leave him, well, out cold. (lol @ puns)
    - I disapprove of nanapulting. This may not be a plus for you, but it's definitely a plus for me to know how reckless it can be. Use it at your own risk. I'd rather have nana alive.
    - Quad Ice Blocks: Here's something cool from Zjiin/Wobbles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB9-vr_q6gg

    Now that you know how to hit, how can you make the best of attacks?

    III - Combos

    First thing's first: since your moves hit really hard, your combos don't need to be long. For example, a usmash to a uair to another uair is an easy 45+%, and also puts yourself below the opponent, an advantageous position. By all means, use more usmashes and uairs if they are above you.

    Memorize the combo potential of each move. Keep in mind that uair is probably the best combo move IC has to offer. However, many others can also provide strange new setups in situations where you can follow up with something. You should already know how to improvise combos through your smash experience, so that's what you should do: memorize, then improvize improvize improvize.

    I really recommend training mode or level 1 CPU's for this. DI is important, so don't forget to incorporate this stuff into matches and note where your combos fail due to DI.

    Now, since I don't really have a mindset or outline for explaining combos, here is a long list of suggestions. They are mostly short and effective combos and clever ways to attack people's shields into further combos:

    - For fast fallers: dash attack, usmash, uair, uair. Or something to that effect. In many cases, this has provided even more useful for me than a grab. Its damage is so huge that it only takes another smash to finish them off. This even works for slightly lighter and slower-falling characters, like Marth/Roy, Sheik, etc. The alternative for slower characters (if you can't get the usmash or second uair) is dash attack, uair, uair. The final uair can also be a fair if they DI in front of you, and it's also much more damaging.

    - Jab dsmash. Self-explanatory. It's better if you WD into it because the sliding jab makes it easier to hit with the dsmash. The jab can be CC'd, but it may prove difficult to punish because the dsmash is so fast.

    - Dair dsmash. It's the same as the jab smash, except you're tapping with an aerial. Its knockback slightly farther than the jab, but since it hits a little harder, it's more damaging and may be more difficult to avoid with a lighter character. Dair fsmash is also viable for super-floaties Luigi and Jigglypuff.

    DAIR DISCLAIMER: Although dair is a great move, CC annihilates it. You probably knew that already. Take note: sometimes you can depend on the other person not CCing if he doesn't expect it, but some highly reactive players such as HugS will sense when to CC even WHILE it's hitting. So watch out for those fast reflexes, dair users. I happen to have a reactive Doc player (HomeMadeWaffles) and a super fast Yoshi player (Park5150) in my area who are pro at fighting ICs. I have fallen victim to so many CC dsmashes, it brings tears to my eyes.

    - Dair dair. Speaking of super floaties, use this SUPER USEFUL spam against Jigglypuff. If she is close by, you can dair her constantly, because she stays in the air after she is hit. None of her aerials are fast enough to stop it except for nair (if she can think of it in that situation... it's unlikely, unless they know about this strategy.) Marginally useful against Luigi because his nair is too good. Just Dair fsmash him.

    - Platform drop dair. Usually unexpected, usually not CC'd.

    - Fair as a combo starter. This move, like dair, is underrated. It's slow, but not laggy. Its knockback is good for combos. It can set up grabs, smashes, or more fairs and uairs. If DI'd, it can set up dash attacks or some other WD move you'd consider. Don't disregard this move as useless. It can also be used as a spacing tool if you do a retreating fair. Fair spike is too good. People will almost never tech the fair spike because they hardly ever expect it to hit (because it's difficult to aim.) They'll only tech if they're really high and they see that they're going to hit the ground. Otherwise, it's unexpected. Use this to your advantage. Keep in mind it can be meteor cancelled.

    - Usmash at 0% or low %. This sets up practically everything.

    - Fair (spike or no spike) to tech chase. Too good.

    - Uair uair. Fall in love with this combo, it's like 30% of damage or something sexy like that. It puts your opponent on top, and sometimes it forces a double jump. Capitalize on that double jump by throwing in more uairs and eventually knocking them off for a weak jumpless-recovery.

    - Dash attack fsmash. TGM combo if you do it in reverse. Do this if a fast faller has slight DI that makes you unable to neither use another dash attack nor usmash. Huge damage for two hits.

    - Jab cancels on the shield are very efficient. For the uninformed, jab cancels are jabs followed by a quick crouch followed by another jab. This is faster than waiting for the jab animation to end. When ICs spam this on a shield, there is very, very little room to retaliate.

    - choknater exclusive: Continuous desynch spam. And I'm not just talking wd smashes... fair and bair can also be used during continuous desynch, and I've seen some players wince when I start spamming desynched short hop fairs. They become very frightened at its mysterious glory because they've never seen it before. There are open spots, but the opponent is usually too surprised to see them, unless they are mindlessly aggressive. lol @ mindgames which are deeper than mindgames. Be sure not to l-cancel the continuous aerials because it may force the other counterpart to shield, stopping or corrupting the desynch.

    - choknater exclusive: Against a shielding opponent, roll toward him, hold the c-stick toward his shield so that Nana uses an fsmash, and then immediately dsmash with Popo. The dsmash can shield stab. Since you're facing away from the opponent, they get the faster part of the dsmash. If they lightshield, or keep shielding, spam more desynched smashes, tilts, or jabs. If they roll, follow up with wd fsmash. This is a very nice trap if you want to attack a shielding opponent instead of grabbing.

    - choknater exclusive: Okay, this one really isn't a combo, but I don't know where else to put it. I've tricked many people with this one. You roll, and during your roll, hold the c-stick in the direction you want to do another roll. Popo will do a c-stick roll and Nana will do an fsmash. Very neat trick. This can either be used defensively if you roll from side to side, or an approach if you roll in one direction. Since nana does the smash, Popo is free to do whatever he wants (such as tech chase.)

    Alright, so those are my bread and butter suggestions. By no means are those all the combos possible, but they should give you a general idea of how the combos work. I hope you're getting a real feel of how to play ICs without grabs now. Improvise.

    Question: What if Nana's dead?

    III.B Popo Combos

    Pick cpu lvl 1 Fox on FD, endless time or 99-stock. Practice this combo with Popo:

    Uthrow, usmash, grab, uthrow, (the cpu does hard front DI on this throw for some reason), dash attack, utilt, uair, and then another aerial.

    This was one of my favorite combos when I started training my solo Popo, and it really gives you the gist of how to combo with him. Comboing is hard, and you must always know what to do next. Accuracy is also key. It's very awesome to be able to combo into another grab, which is another reason why that combo is important. On Marth, try dthrow nair dthrow and create your own variations. That might give you a small idea of how to combo into a grab.

    Popo obviously doesn't hit twice, so it's twice as hard to rack up damage. You must be spot on with every attack. In my opinion, pure Popo skill can dictate how good and how clutch an IC player can really be. (They also tend to have good Nanas lol.) At 0C3, ChuDat did a 4-stock comeback with one Popo life on Luninspectra. So... godly...

    Lvl 1 computers and training partners who easily kill nana are the best kind of training you can get for using Popo alone. His combos are usually weaker versions of combos using both ICs, except without leet grabs and desynchs. However, there is one major plus about having Popo alone:

    His mobility is free to dance, because Nana isn't there for you to save. IC's fast wavedashes, wavelands, and approaches are amplified in Popo because he doesn't have to stop moving for Nana to resynch. This is where wavelanding really comes in handy, because it's an awesome mobility tool for getting around stages. You don't want to stay on a platform too long, of course, but being able to move quickly on them is much more useful for Popo than it is for both ICs together.

    One last thing about Popo: don't mess up a tech chase.

    Now then... What if the opponent is avoiding all of these combos and setups? ICs can't handle a lot of aerial movement...

    IV - Spacing

    Sometimes, you're just gonna have to wait for the opponent to put themselves in the position to be hit. This is where you need to work on YOUR reflexes and reactive moves. I'm mostly going to cover defensive spacing in this section.

    This will be a short section, but I gave it its own section because it's extremely important. Here are some spacing tips.

    - WD backwards to fsmash or dash attack are fantastic counters to an incoming aerial. WDing backwards is generally one of the most useful defensive spacing tools ICs can use. However, be aware of the ledges. WDing back too much can put you near the ledge, which isn't all that safe. They can't really ledge camp because there's two of them, so one of them is not gonna be able to hang on.

    - Roll. Their roll is pretty decent. Always keep c-stick rolling in mind, it has some good utility against spamming. Rolling also starts desynch, so why not?

    - Sidestepping is bad, unless it's for desynching. Those little frames of opening for other characters' sidesteps are double for ICs, so if someone attacks you while you're dodging, there's a high chance one of the ICs will get hit. Perfect separation, because one is left shielding. Please WD or jump instead.

    - Spacing is not just horizontal spacing: vertical is very important too. Remember that you don't want to be on top because there are no good moves coming down except for dair/fair. For opponents above, uair keeps them their. Knowledge of these little spacing nuances will greatly increase the damage that you deal. Be weary of opponents falling down and attacking. If you space it well by WDing in time, it could be a free grab or smash.

    - choknater exclusive: A WD can be stopped very precisely by charging a smash. This is most useful for fsmashes. For example, if you can anticipate a ledge hop attack, or a running shffl attack, you can intercept it by WDing back. If you charge a smash during the WD, your sliding will stop, and you can stop the smash at will, which has VERY accurate results if timed properly. This is my ledge hop punisher... It reminds me a lot of Samus's commonly used WD back to fsmash. I use this technique very often because I tend to only do very long wavedashes, and I can't break the habit to do a short WD. Fortunately, the long WD moves faster, and charged smashes are more accurate to time.

    Feel like you now have a good sense of a non-grab ICs? How do you become even better?

    V - choknater stuff

    Use some stuff I made up, lol. Did I say I wasn't gonna discuss grab combos? I lied. I have a few interesting grab combos for you IC players out there.

    All of the following combos are desynched, starting with Popo. They may seem impractical, but they work more often than you'd believe.

    - choknater combo: Dthrow, dair, dair, dsmash/fsmash. Both dairs are slightly hopped forward, neither are l-cancelled. I made this up while training against lvl 1 Jigglypuff. It works on other characters, however. Heavier/faster falling characters are able to CC the 2nd dair. This combo is TOO GOOD. Exclaim "choknater combo!" after using it.

    - choknater combo 2: Dthrow, bair, WD back usmash. Can be followed up with uair. You know how to reverse dair chain? This works the same way: as you full jump forward with Nana, use the c-stick to do the aerial. This might put the opponent in the perfect position to be Usmashed by Popo. It may seem impractical, but just remember how good a setup the usmash can be. A few times I followed this combo with a uair, landed on a platform, then did an fsmash. "choknater combo!"

    - On Link, and some other chars: Dthrow, bair, backwards dash grab can be used as a chain throw. Sexy, and actually quite easy to connect, because no one expects it, and therefore don't DI it correctly.

    - How to grab-kill Fox the sexy way:
    If you're facing the ledge: Damage Fox, dthrow, reverse dair, dsmash. That dair gives an awesome amount of extra damage, and the dsmash is harder to DI then your basic dthrow fsmash.
    If you're facing away from the ledge: short hop c-stick back. It hits Fox with a bair and messes up DI because it's unexpected. Its knockback is amazing, I have killed Foxes at like 65% because their DI was poor. (I guess this has been known.)

    - DI-DESTROYER (I thought this was mine, but Wobbles and some other players knew it already :'C)
    As you grab, charge an fsmash with Nana. Uthrow and let go of the smash and you should hit the opponent backwards. If they DI'd "properly," which means upwards and into the attack, then the knockback is absolutely huge. This was known, but I thought I'd post it again because it's one of my more prized moves.

    VI - Some final words

    Okay, that choknater stuff might not have sounded very good to you. However, those techniques are ones that I truly value because I made them up on my own. They work for me, and I think they're great.

    In my opinion, the essence of today's smach scene is originality. This guide encourages you to act on your own and invent, which is the beauty of SSBM as a fighting game. It's not a matter of mastering known techniques to become a great player, it's about making your own. Almost every strategy in Smash has a counter strategy (except for Mew2King. There is no counter-strategy for Mew2King.) For Ice Climbers, there are many ways for you to counter anti-grab strategies. All hope is not lost. My combos, which were once mine to use, are now yours. And if you don't think they're good, then by all means, create your own.

    Note: This guide isn't saying grabs are obselete... grab all you want. IC's grabs are always gonna be awesome. This guide is for decent/good/advanced players with advanced opponents who know how to avoid grabs.

    I hope you enjoyed this guide as much as I did, and now, let's all celebrate my 3,000th post by discussing!!

    (Fun Fact: I wasted my 3,000th post in the Back Room. This is actually my 3,001st post, :'C)
     
    Mister the Wizard and S2rulL like this.
  2. pockyD

    pockyD
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2006
    Messages:
    11,928
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    sticky-worthy ;)
     
    Benny P likes this.
  3. PB&J

    PB&J
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,758
    Location:
    lawrenceville, GA
    this guide was very good wouldn't of said it better..thanks for putting it up
     
  4. Binx

    Binx
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,040
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Wow, pretty amazing, I'll definately try some of this, I like solo popo, I think solo popo is about as good as mario but my friends dont agree with me, ah well.

    EDIT: I agree this should be stickied asap
     
  5. Kyu Puff

    Kyu Puff
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,252
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Awesome.

    Btw, would desync'd d-airs help to avoid being crouch cancelled? So you could d-air with Popo, and have Nana left to either smash or d-air immediately afterwards?
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Hopewell Junction!
    thank god.


    nothing i would change.

    maybe some edge guarding techniques? idkk
     
  7. nealdt

    nealdt
    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,191
    Location:
    Long Beach CA

    Fantastic work, chok.
     
  8. dj asakura

    dj asakura
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Messages:
    841
    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    wow, probably one of the better guides i've seen.

    really good stuff, especially since it focuses on an important aspect of the ICs game: non-grab techniques

    very nice
     
  9. Gimpyfish62

    Gimpyfish62
    Expand Collapse
    Banned (62 points)

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Edmonds, Washington

    good stuff mate its about time something like this was made and you did a good job doing it, very nice
     
  10. Wikipedia

    Wikipedia
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Resurrected.
    Shhhhhhhh, chok, Ice Climber players don't know that their controller doesn't only have the Z button.
     
    Benny P likes this.
  11. Binx

    Binx
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,040
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Grats on the sticky ;) once again very nice stuff.
     
  12. holywhack

    holywhack
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    94
    woohoo now i know to use nair with puff against aerial ICs if I'm too close... great guide though.
     
  13. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,288
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    A CC can always counter a dair if the opponent uses a move fast enough. Shines, jabs, quick down tilts/smashes, they can all escape dairs. The dair is best used as a tap reset very similar to a jab.

    Thanks for the sticky and the support xD! I'm glad you like it.

    You see, the reason I want to emphasize these points because, I admit, I'm not very good at chain grabs and I don't even know how to wobble correctly. Everyone seems to escape my grab stuff so I have to play a different way. I have a huge appreciation for ChuDat's improvised styles because I have seen him win many matches without even grabbing. I figured I don't really need grabs to win, and I found out that I was different from many other IC players who focused on grabbing. So I thought I'd write a guide on what I'm good at.
     
  14. park5150

    park5150
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    609
    Location:
    mofodesto
    .....you made this because of me....HAHA JK LOL
    #1 you're too good
    #2 i am going to start using the ICs
    #3 You're too good
     
  15. Lunchbox

    Lunchbox
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2007
    Messages:
    238
    Location:
    Miztik, CA
    man andre this is a really amazing guide man i dont know what to say besides this is incridible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
     
  16. Buuman

    Buuman
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    Spencer MA
    Awesome guide man, this should definitely be stickied, very unique guide.
     
  17. Lixivium

    Lixivium
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,689
    I suggest watching videos of Trail to see how IC's might be played without relying on chaingrabs, so that when you do chaingrab it's all the more effective. Trail uses a lot of jab -> D-smash, techchasing with charged smashes, and lots of movement tricks.
     
  18. park5150

    park5150
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    609
    Location:
    mofodesto
    Yeah, i seen some but ChokNater will make some videos i hope...(you better andre!!), yeah, you're right!!!
     
  19. Binx

    Binx
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,040
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I think one of the most important things this guide really teaches is that ICs have many more options than people use, because of the small player base for ICs we havnt learned every technique available to us, and many ICs ONLY grab or at least barely do anything else. As a cute eskimo warrior duo you have 2 hammers, 4 b moves, 2 projectiles and a grab and there are times to impliment all these things.
     
  20. cloudz

    cloudz
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Hopewell Junction!
    Could you maybe add the Quad ice blocks to the ice block section?

    4 ice blocks at once is something worth talking about i think ;)
     
  21. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,288
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    Ah wow, as long as I've been an IC player, I've never heard of that. It sounds really interesting and I'd gladly add it to the guide. Care to enlighten me?
     
  22. Binx

    Binx
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,040
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I don't think this is possible, maybe you could ledgecancle them?
     
  23. pockyD

    pockyD
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2006
    Messages:
    11,928
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    it's basically launching ice blocks as you wd off a platform so the lag cancels, then launching another pair of blocks right away
     
  24. HylianLord

    HylianLord
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2005
    Messages:
    541
    Location:
    Cupertino (Norcal!), CA
    rofl 4 blocks, thats ****ing rediculous looo

    and choc mentioned me =)
     
  25. cloudz

    cloudz
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Hopewell Junction!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB9-vr_q6gg


    Zjiin made it so all props are to him lolz


    wobbles discovered it thoughh(i think)
     
  26. Wikipedia

    Wikipedia
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Resurrected.
    That's crazy, the deke quad blocks looks like a nice taunt.
     
  27. cloudz

    cloudz
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Hopewell Junction!
    its good for single climber ice chasing as well :)
     
  28. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,288
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    thanks for the link, that's pretty cool. i added it in to the projectile section, not mentioning its utility or anything because i don't use it and don't know anything about it. i added in the video link. :p
     
  29. park5150

    park5150
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    609
    Location:
    mofodesto
    lol, i tried it....its aight, but its kinda useless sometimes.
     
  30. Speedsk8er

    Speedsk8er
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,212
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Sans Mario's combo game but yeah, you're about right.

    Pretty good guide though. My roommate likes to play Link and spam projectiles when far away and exploit his range when close. I hate it. And then to finish everything off.. Spin-spike. AH! >_< He knows to avoid my grabs. Alot of the stuff you put though, I've already known about though. This is actually mostly my playstyle, seeing as I don't chaingrab much.
     
  31. Gimpyfish62

    Gimpyfish62
    Expand Collapse
    Banned (62 points)

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Edmonds, Washington

    solo popo as good as mario LOOL

    solo popo is worse than bowser
     
  32. Speedsk8er

    Speedsk8er
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,212
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    :( almost as good? Please? Pretty please? :(
     
  33. ragnarock

    ragnarock
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,539
    This was a great guide I found out all kinds of stuff. But I have two questions

    1. How do you hold on to the edge with Popo while Nana is powering up an smash attack?
     
  34. psicicle

    psicicle
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    618
    lol I know a lot of this stuff because I didn't even learn to chaingrab until half a year after finding out about advanced stuff and before that I never used the grab because it seemed useless because I played SSB64. So my grabless game is decent. Maybe. I don't know, I don't have tournament experience yet I only have some secondhand experience. I play against some people who sometimes go to tournies.
     
  35. Wobbles

    Wobbles
    Expand Collapse
    Desert Eskimo

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,883
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ

    Solo Popo can still chaingrab like 1/4 of the cast, combo fast fallers--but hey, who can't--and still has KO'ing strength with his smashes. And he's still fast as hell.

    Solo Popo is low-tier. Unless we can invent something crazy, like a super-wave-hammer-cancel. Then he'd be top tier.

    Amirite?
     
  36. Speedsk8er

    Speedsk8er
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,212
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Listen to this man.
     
  37. Chaudgobay

    Chaudgobay
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    151
    Location:
    Brazil
    dont think so

    think solo popo is mid tier, same level as Link or Pikachu
    it's really dificult to play with an oponet with solo popo

    but not as impossible as u said
     
  38. psicicle

    psicicle
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    618
    I play a better solo popo than most of the other characters just because I use him more often than other chars
     
  39. choknater

    choknater
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Obsessed

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,288
    Location:
    Modesto, CA
    NNID:
    choknater
    There are certain cases where solo Popo is seemingly better (or at least more practical) than having both Ice Climbers. Notable matchups are with Ganon or Ness (ever tried to fight against PK Fire? Simna abuses that sh*t). Against characters like this, sometimes you're gonna have to need that extra mobility without having to worry about Nana's re-synching or recovery.
     
  40. Lixivium

    Lixivium
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,689
    Solo Popo may be faster, but that's about it. Without Nana, Popo's attacks are half as powerful and twice as punishable. He has virtually no comboing ability, and you're not likely to get more than 10-15 damage out of solo chaingrabbing. His recovery is a joke.

    You never want to be solo any more than you have to be.
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?