The Snorlax Room

[Firus]

Protip: RMTs go as a new thread in the Battle Tower. Firus lead you to the wrong thread, for some odd reason.

Check the thread. I said to go to the Battle Tower for RMTs and The Snorlax Room for asking about team strategies and the like.

 

[Wave⁂]

Unsurprisingly, accusations about Firus sucking were wrong

Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Kofu]

A little late but
Wave, I noticed you mentioned STAB Scald for Lapras.
Lapras doesn't get Scald.

 

[Wave⁂]

Huh. I wonder if it's because Lapras is Ice-type.

 

[Kofu]

I believe that is indeed the reason. The only Ice-Type to get Scald is Snowy Castform, which doesn't really even count IMO. lol.

 

[BairJew]

choknater: thanks man i'll check out that site. Idk if you would think tourney experience is also useful i've had a bit, but thanks for your help.

 

[Wave⁂]

I believe that is indeed the reason. The only Ice-Type to get Scald is Snowy Castform, which doesn't really even count IMO. lol.

Man, if Walrein got Scald he'd be pretty beastly.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Walrein is Ice-type? Get outta here.

 

[choknater]

choknater: thanks man i'll check out that site. Idk if you would think tourney experience is also useful i've had a bit, but thanks for your help.

tournys are always very gimmicky and you focus so much on winning your single battles, no matter how much luck or one-time tricks are involved.

for online ladders, you really focus on creating a great team that will win many battles.



anyway, dragonite being #1 at smogon now really says a lot about smogon. it's like they really want stall to be viable. i mean, take a look at the things they banned

rain + swift swim
- offense too strong

blaziken
- offense too strong

garchomp
- offense too strong. but also sand veil i guess?

excadrill
- offense too strong

it's just stupid. i had a conversation with my friend about this and he said "back in GSC we just dealt with it that stall was the best and offense sucked. if it's the opposite now, people should just live with the fact that stall sucks. don't ban stuff just to make it viable, just because people complain."

it's unbelievable. if anything, chomp and excadrill were legitimate sand options to fight swift swim. and blaziken was a DEFINITE option for sun teams to fight swift swim. they all balance each other out.

they all just heavily shift the gen V metagame towards offense... but... why is that such a bad thing?!!?!?

edit: oh yeah and thundurus. another stupid ban because it was CLEARLY AT #10 in the usage stats when it was banned. wth man.

oh well. my favorite pokemon is sun cloyster which can win any game if i play my cards right. OFFENSEEEE.

 

[Wave⁂]

Usage != ban-worthy

 

[choknater]

that's dumb imo. i'm not saying it's not the only criteria, but thundurus being at 10 shows that it clearly wasn't being used on every single team and was totally beatable. what was the problem with him anyway? nasty plot? thunder wave? hammer arm?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The point. You missed it.

 

[Wave⁂]

thundurus being at 10 shows that it clearly was totally beatable.

dat logic, so OP

 

[choknater]

yeah, you guys are lame too. you just shoot down my posts without explaining. please explain, so that i may not be uneducated, and smart like the rest of you.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

When was usage ever indicative of the need to ban a Pokemon.

Just look at Scizor in DPPt, where he was the most used Pokemon by far, and the metagame overcentralized around it to the point where Scizor was the easiest Pokemon in the game to lure. But Scizor wasn't banned.

 

[choknater]

so why wasn't he banned, and thundurus was banned. people even wanted to ban REUNICLUS WTH.

and i understand that usage isn't grounds to ban something, but it was always a pretty clear indicator of what pokemon in the metagame were strong. pretty sure the garchomp ban in pre-HGSS was a good ban, because he was #1 and was dominating the metagame like mewtwo in rby.

but then even after HGSS he was still banned which didn't make sense to me haha.

 

[Wave⁂]

1. Why are you using usage as evidence for a ban when stuff like Mienshao is in the top 50?
2. Why would anyone use Thunderbro on a sand or sun team? Clearly usage is not reliable.
3. Nasty Plot Thunderbro basically 2HKOed everything in the rain

 

[Terywj [태리]]

so why wasn't he banned, and thundurus was banned. people even wanted to ban REUNICLUS WTH.

...

You were just arguing that Thundurus didn't need to be banned if he was #10, so I noted that usage has never been a reason that Smogon has used to ban a Pokemon. How do you explain the Salamence ban, then? Like, if you don't understand this, then I kinda give up.

 

[choknater]

2. Why would anyone use Thunderbro on a sand or sun team? Clearly usage is not reliable.

okay, this more clearly illustrates why he is not used on every team. i forgot that the weather creates a lot of diversity.

3. Nasty Plot Thunderbro basically 2HKOed everything in the rain

except excadrill and garchomp

...

You were just arguing that Thundurus didn't need to be banned if he was #10, so I noted that usage has never been a reason that Smogon has used to ban a Pokemon. How do you explain the Salamence ban, then? Like, if you don't understand this, then I kinda give up.

i get this. i understand that usage doesn't mean bannable now, i'm just asking why thundurus was banned now. still seems like a dumb ban bc smogoners hate offense

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I never followed the Thundurus ban too closely, but with Nasty Plot, you basically had to rely on Quagsire to stop it. Quagsire. Remember how Garchomp was stupid in that people started using stuff like Cloyster and Cresselia? Yeah, same concept, different Pokemon.

Excadrill and Garchomp don't enjoy taking +2 Focus Blasts, BTW.

 

[Wave⁂]

except excadrill and garchomp

Garchomp is outsped and OHKOed with HP Ice, I doubt Excadrill can take a +2 Focus Blast too well. Even if you're using Hammer Arm (without a -Atk nature), you OHKO with entry hazards.

 

[choknater]

haha. in that sense, golurk also sounds like a hard counter to thundurus.

using obscure pokemon to hard counter major threats isn't a bad idea either IMO, as long as they are fit well into a team.

wave: fair enough. i don't mean to introduce other elements into the mix, but since we're talking weather and you're talking about rain-assisted thunders... in the sandstorm, sand veil would make it a little less likely for garchomp to die, and excadrill would be faster.

anyway, this discussion is opening my eyes a little bit to his options and why he is GOOD. but i still don't understand the ban.

maybe i am just an anti-ban person in general and always find ways to counter the bannable stuff.

tery: i think cloyster is an amazing pokemon because he hard counters a lot of threats that people rave too much about. gliscor? FREEEEE.

cloyster is my favorite pokemon in gen v metagame lol.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

haha. in that sense, golurk also sounds like a hard counter to thundurus.

>Golurk
>Hidden Power Ice

using obscure pokemon to hard counter major threats isn't a bad idea either IMO, as long as they are fit well into a team.

But when every team needs one or two of these obscure Pokemon in order to qualify in standard play, it becomes a problem.

 

[choknater]

sigh, well to me it just means they are no longer obscure.

i guess i don't really see "centralized" metagames as a big problem.

 

[Wave⁂]

Obscure is one thing. When you're using an obscure Pokemon who is also lackluster in many other areas solely for countering one Pokemon your opponent may or may not be using, then there's a problem.

 

[choknater]

that's just being foolish, then, isn't it? i don't think usage of a pokemon like that would make it rise to the top because the team would be weak. it'd just be able to beat a major threat, which there are dozens of in gen v.

 

[Wave⁂]

You're beating one specific threat while handicapping your team, leaving you open to other threats. When many people actually think that that is a good idea, do you really think that the one threat is one the same level as others?

 

[choknater]

alright, maybe they are on the next level

 

[Kofu]

I'm for not banning things, personally, but that's just me.

I never thought Thundurus and Excadrill were that overpowered. I also never experienced Sub/SD Chomp, Swift Swim + Drizzle, or Blaziken.
Well, kind of Blaziken.

 

[UltiMario]

Sub/SD Chomp was way overhyped.

To be honest DDNite is much more threatening

 

[The Real Gamer]

The thing about Sub/SD Chomp that was annoying as hell was Sand Veil. One silly miss and before you know it your whole team is swept as a result.

I really never found Excadrill that rough to deal with. There was a lot of viable stuff that could easily stop it.

Thundrus and Blazekin were huge *** holes and deserved their bans.

 

[Kofu]

As far as I know, it was mainly banned because of the .36 chance you had of missing twice in a row.
Which is in between the chance of missing once with Hypnosis and Focus Blast.

 

[asianaussie]

dragonite #1?

next thing you know hitmonchan'll be OU

is slowbro OU? was he ever OU in gen 5?

first gen claiming its stake

 

[Wave⁂]

I really never found Excadrill that rough to deal with. There was a lot of viable stuff that could easily stop it.

Counters:
Bronzong
Skarmory
Gliscor (without Return)

Bronzong can't take X-Scissor that well (3HKO at +2), and probably has trouble killing Excadrill with Balloon. Skarmory can't actually kill Excadrill, and just sits around waiting for Rock Slide crits and flinches.

That said, Excadrill has a ****ton of checks, of course.

 

[Kofu]

Weezing does an okay job of stopping Excadrill, barring Rock Slide flinches, with Will-o-wisp, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, and Pain Split. It's actually a decent way to stop weaker Physical Pokémon, because physical Psychic attacks are so rare.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Weezing can take two +2 Rock Slides / Returns? Whaaat?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Counters:
Bronzong
Skarmory
Gliscor (without Return)

Bronzong can't take X-Scissor that well (3HKO at +2), and probably has trouble killing Excadrill with Balloon. Skarmory can't actually kill Excadrill, and just sits around waiting for Rock Slide crits and flinches.

That said, Excadrill has a ****ton of checks, of course.

Yeah when I said "stop it" I was actually referring to checks.

 

[Wave⁂]

Unless your check can deal with taking repeated EQs / Rock Slides from a Excadrill who switches out when you try to hit him, you can't only use checks.

 

[Kofu]

Weezing can take two +2 Rock Slides / Returns? Whaaat?

These are all for 252/252+ Weezing

Jolly +2 Rock Slide: 107-126
Jolly +2 Return: 145-171
Jolly +2 LO Rock Slide: 136-161
Jolly +2 LO Return: 186-219
Adamant +2 Rock Slide: 118-139
Adamant +2 Return: 159-188
Adamant +2 LO Rock Slide: 151-178
Adamant +2 LO Return: 204-241

It can take them (especially Rock Slide) if Excadrill doesn't have Life Orb. +2 LO Return is pretty much a losing game for Weezing, though.

If it takes minimum damage from the strongest Return, it's left with 130 HP. Assuming it hits with Will-o-Wisp, Excadrill's damage the next turn is reduced to 123 Maximum, and it can use Pain Split next.

It's not the best check, but you'd be surprised how well Weezing can work to halt physical attackers. I really don't know why more people didn't use LO Excadrill, since it's by far the most dangerous variant.

One more note about Excadrill: it can't always have all of Swords Dance, Return, X-Scissor, Rapid Spin, Substitute (possibly), and other moves, which helps in countering it. (Tangrowth does well if it doesn't have X-Scissor, taking 237 maximum from Adamant +2 LO Return, which allows it to Earthquake/Leaf Storm as a follow-up)

 

[UltiMario]

Kofu, use percentages, not HP damage.