The Smash Tournament Format is Flawed

[dan smith]

Items are random, tournaments aren't random scenario generation exercises, they are tests of skills.

YOU FAILED SO HARD!!

Oooh...

 

[RedMage8BT]

Actually... he makes a pretty good point... EXCEPT for things that have already been brought up... items' locations are too random etc...

 

[Sephi_hatu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146646

I approve of that thread ^^^

Its the conversation I wanted to be having, I just didnt go about it in the best of ways.

 

[Winston]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146646

I approve of that thread ^^^

Its the conversation I wanted to be having, I just didnt go about it in the best of ways.

Good job not answering Mookierah's post.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

Good job not answering Mookierah's post.

Dont get your panties in a bunch. Youll notice I didnt answer alot of peoples posts.

However, to you, fun is relative from person to person. Items may be more fun to one person, but not to the other.

 

[Gymclass_Hero]

Items are random.

End thread.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dont get your panties in a bunch. Youll notice I didnt answer alot of peoples posts.

However, to you, fun is relative from person to person. Items may be more fun to one person, but not to the other.

And tournaments are formed on the basis that testing one's skill...is fun. Seeing who is better...is fun. Where did you get this notion that we weren't having fun the way things are right now. Where'd you get the idea that you can take this fun away from us by introducing something that undermines the test of skill that we've worked so hard for.

That is why you fail.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Dont get your panties in a bunch. Youll notice I didnt answer alot of peoples posts.

However, to you, fun is relative from person to person. Items may be more fun to one person, but not to the other.

That's the thing, tournaments aren't just about "having fun in a match." I mean, people play tournaments because they enjoy it, but that's not the point. A lot of people who do play in tournaments will do items matches with friends for fun, but that is not what a tournament is about. Tournaments are more serious, they have money on the line. It's actually a competition, and they don't want the random spawning of an item to turn the tide of a match because items as a whole reduce the character to character, player to player skill.

While there is skill in playing with items, it's a completely different type of skill than that measured in tournaments.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

And tournaments are formed on the basis that testing one's skill...is fun. Seeing who is better...is fun. Where did you get this notion that we weren't having fun the way things are right now. Where'd you get the idea that you can take this fun away from us by introducing something that undermines the test of skill that we've worked so hard for.

That is why you fail.

You should properly comprehend what Im saying. I in no way said tournaments werent fun. I said some people dont like items. There are, indeed, people who dont find items fun. I never said that people werent having fun. You seem to be putting alot of words in my mouth.

 

[Qlink]

It all depends on who you face
Theres people who hate items...
And those who use them
Pros refuse to use items but being a master of items is better...

It all depends on how you use them and use them as lets say...a extended weapon...
Or whatever...

Thats why pros arent pros...its because they refuse to use items because the player sucks...

 

[Micahc]

GAAAAH!!! I freaking HATE these useless threads!!! Play with items if you want, just know that tournaments don't have them! Grow up and deal with it people. And stop comparing Smash to Street Fighter.

 

[Rhubarbo]

God, can't you understand that all items add 0 skill to the game. Here are the points against items:

1) Random spawing
2) Spawns in front of you when charging Smash
3) Adds element to the game that is not skillful

Here are counter arguments:
1) Odds are that some items will spawn beside you in the whole match
2)...
3) If you are so skilled, you should be able to play with items

The reason theses counter arguments are flawed is because sometimes, you can go a whole match and items just spawn where your opponent is. There is not indicator telling you when an item will spawn and where. If there was, then they MIGHT have been allowed, but as it stands now, all items do is remove skill for novelty.

Turning them off doensn't remove fun at all. Certain people prefer to play with items off and ENJOY that. That is why there is an option to do so. If you want to host an items tournament, have fun with all the 0 people that show up.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You should properly comprehend what Im saying. I in no way said tournaments werent fun. I said some people dont like items. There are, indeed, people who dont find items fun. I never said that people werent having fun. You seem to be putting alot of words in my mouth.

In the context of the thread pertaining to wanting items to be considered for tournaments, it is only natural to assume that thought tournaments would be better with them.

In the context of your previous post

However, to you, fun is relative from person to person. Items may be more fun to one person, but not to the other.

It is only natural to imply that you believe that tournaments would be better with items on the assumtion that they would be more fun.

By that, you would be saying that item tournaments are more fun than the current tournament setting, would you not. If I'm wrong in my assumtion that you believe tournaments would be better with items because they would be more fun, then I appologize. But if I'm right, then you should notice that my arguement still stands.

A lot of people are misinformed on the reasons that items are banned. They believe that items were banned because of the exploding capsules that could randomly appear. However, that is simply a part of a much broader reason that items are banned.

Items are banned in melee tournaments because they randomly give a player an advantage. The size of the advantage may range from the aquiring of a fan, to a bomb falling on your opponent. However, the size of the advantage is insignificant. What does matter is the fact that, because items spawn randomly, neither player can predict these situations, and thus neither player can really "work" for these advantages. They can only work to counteract an advantage that their opponent was unfairly given, whether that be an item spawning in a place that makes it easier for your opponent to get it, or an item having a more direct effect on your well being (like an exploding bomb or rolling crate). One advantage is easier to counteract than the other, but the fact is that now the match has been unpredicabely swayed to be more in favor of one of the players than it was before, with no effort on the end of the one recieving the advantage. That is not the spirit of competative play, which is why random elements are taken out whenever possible. If we could take out misfires, we would. If we could take out death turnips, we would. If we can take out items, we will.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

And tournaments are formed on the basis that testing one's skill...is fun. Seeing who is better...is fun. Where did you get this notion that we weren't having fun the way things are right now. Where'd you get the idea that you can take this fun away from us by introducing something that undermines the test of skill that we've worked so hard for.

That is why you fail.

QFMFT. You play smash your way, we will play it ours. I've said ti over and over again. It's differing mindsets between competitive and non-competitive players that cause these problems. We will never understand each other, let us have these stupid arguments just die already.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

I would like to see at least some tournaments playing with items on. They are a huge part of Smash Bros, and I am curious to see how skilled players would use them. Maybe it'd be cool in 2v2, because it would let 2 people potentially gang up on the person with the item. The appearance of items would force people to change their strategies.

One way of playing with items is to have the first two matches in a set of three with a predetermined set of items available on low appearance rate. The third match could be at a boring stage like Final Destination with no items.

 

[Smilez]

Random items, randomly spawning at random place sounds pretty random to me. Prove your *********** by disagreeing w/ this. NUB!

 

[fallenangemon0]

They're completely different. Super bars are awarded in those games thanks to activity. Whether you are poking, spamming a projectile, parrying, just-defend, etc. your meter is awarded thanks to activity inputted by the controls.

Items in smash have random spawn locations regardless of player activity. One can be camping, running away, or doing nothing at all. Yet there's a chance that an item will pop up near any player doing anything or nothing at all.

The point in a smash tournament format is to eliminate as many random factors as possible. Items are too chaotic and vary in their usefulness to be considered in a high stakes tournament scene. Your comparison to games with super bars is too limited. That's not a very accurate analogy.

I offer you a better one. Take the same game with the said super bars. Now add random items that spawn in random places during the fight. Some items fill your super bar, others make you invincible, some eliminate your super bars, some make you lose control of your character, and all this spawns during a best 3 out of 5. Luck has now become a major factor in winning while some of the skill takes a backseat. That's something competitive play tries to limit at all costs.

Personally though, I don't mind separating tourneys into items/smash balls/no items. You attract a wide audience and encourage use of a wide variety of characters. If people were interested in taking up time to do all that, I'm sure there'd be limited complaints. I know I'd play all three myself.

YES! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Playing tourneys with items would just kick the metagame in the nuts . You may as well just put every tourney entrant's name into a hat and just draw the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Place winners. I know that may seem like a hyperbole but when you factor in that Items spawn in specific places, some explode upon contact, and some dont even work sometimes, you dont have a metagame that is based off of skills ( like it should be ) but one of luck and odds. The whole purpose of a tourney is to see who is the best. Not "See who winds up winning because an item spawned on top of a player as he was attacking, causing it to explode, causing him to lose". If you want tourneys to be based on luck you really have no business on suggesting why you think they should to those of us that play tourneys for the sole reason of them being based off of the players skill and nothing more.

By having items in the metagame Smash Bros becomes, not a game of whos better than who, but more of a coin toss.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

Randomness is not necessarily bad. In Magic, there are frequently draft tournaments. Opening up the game to more variables tests areas that more rigid rules allow. There does not have to be one tournament format.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

In the context of the thread pertaining to wanting items to be considered for tournaments, it is only natural to assume that thought tournaments would be better with them.

In the context of your previous post It is only natural to imply that you believe that tournaments would be better with items on the assumtion that they would be more fun.

By that, you would be saying that item tournaments are more fun than the current tournament setting, would you not. If I'm wrong in my assumtion that you believe tournaments would be better with items because they would be more fun, then I appologize. But if I'm right, then you should notice that my arguement still stands.

A lot of people are misinformed on the reasons that items are banned. They believe that items were banned because of the exploding capsules that could randomly appear. However, that is simply a part of a much broader reason that items are banned.

Items are banned in melee tournaments because they randomly give a player an advantage. The size of the advantage may range from the aquiring of a fan, to a bomb falling on your opponent. However, the size of the advantage is insignificant. What does matter is the fact that, because items spawn randomly, neither player can predict these situations, and thus neither player can really "work" for these advantages. They can only work to counteract an advantage that their opponent was unfairly given, whether that be an item spawning in a place that makes it easier for your opponent to get it, or an item having a more direct effect on your well being (like an exploding bomb or rolling crate). One advantage is easier to counteract than the other, but the fact is that now the match has been unpredicabely swayed to be more in favor of one of the players than it was before, with no effort on the end of the one recieving the advantage. That is not the spirit of competative play, which is why random elements are taken out whenever possible. If we could take out misfires, we would. If we could take out death turnips, we would. If we can take out items, we will.

So you said 'Okay, you posted this'. Then went on to say 'Okay, now Im going to suppose you said something entirely different' and railed on alot of unsaid words.

Ive conceded points. Im not saying that items arent random.

Randomness is not necessarily bad. In Magic, there are frequently draft tournaments. Opening up the game to more variables tests areas that more rigid rules allow. There does not have to be one tournament format.

The problem with magic is that its controlled randomness. Players can control the odds of drawing a card and so forth. There are different formats in which the game can be played, but theres still one overarching standard.

 

[PXG]

How many times does this topic have to brought up? The fact that items are random is more than enough to have them banned in tournaments. Seriously, this is ridiculous. Just stop...

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

The problem with magic is that its controlled randomness. Players can control the odds of drawing a card and so forth. There are different formats in which the game can be played, but theres still one overarching standard.

I was talking about the randomness associated with creating your deck in the draft format. Players get to open packs of cards, pick a card that they want, and pass it to the left (or right). You don't control what cards are available in the pack of cards you open, but you pick the one you want out of it. Then, you receive a more limited selection from other players' packs. It's a fun format, with loads of strategy.

 

[jellis186]

My man, you're wrong, accept it. I've never been to a tourney, I am not a tourney player and personally, items on or off mean nothing to me. But in the context of what a tourney is, items destroy it.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

How many times does this topic have to brought up? The fact that items are random is more than enough to have them banned in tournaments. Seriously, this is ridiculous. Just stop...

My man, you're wrong, accept it. I've never been to a tourney, I am not a tourney player and personally, items on or off mean nothing to me. But in the context of what a tourney is, items destroy it.

Having items in tournaments is neither definitely ridiculous nor definitely wrong. Those are opinions. It is possible to have a tournament with items. The tournament will not blow up. People can still compete, and on a more unpredictable playing field. Draft tournaments testify to this.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

I was talking about the randomness associated with creating your deck in the draft format. Players get to open packs of cards, pick a card that they want, and pass it to the left (or right). You don't control what cards are available in the pack of cards you open, but you pick the one you want out of it. Then, you receive a more limited selection from other players' packs. It's a fun format, with loads of strategy.

Ah yes, draft format. I thought you were getting at the randomness of shuffling your deck. I was saying that theres draft, but then theres the more played standard format.

 

[Justin Wiles]

In the context of the thread pertaining to wanting items to be considered for tournaments, it is only natural to assume that thought tournaments would be better with them.

In the context of your previous post It is only natural to imply that you believe that tournaments would be better with items on the assumtion that they would be more fun.

By that, you would be saying that item tournaments are more fun than the current tournament setting, would you not. If I'm wrong in my assumtion that you believe tournaments would be better with items because they would be more fun, then I appologize. But if I'm right, then you should notice that my arguement still stands.

A lot of people are misinformed on the reasons that items are banned. They believe that items were banned because of the exploding capsules that could randomly appear. However, that is simply a part of a much broader reason that items are banned.

Items are banned in melee tournaments because they randomly give a player an advantage. The size of the advantage may range from the aquiring of a fan, to a bomb falling on your opponent. However, the size of the advantage is insignificant. What does matter is the fact that, because items spawn randomly, neither player can predict these situations, and thus neither player can really "work" for these advantages. They can only work to counteract an advantage that their opponent was unfairly given, whether that be an item spawning in a place that makes it easier for your opponent to get it, or an item having a more direct effect on your well being (like an exploding bomb or rolling crate). One advantage is easier to counteract than the other, but the fact is that now the match has been unpredicabely swayed to be more in favor of one of the players than it was before, with no effort on the end of the one recieving the advantage. That is not the spirit of competative play, which is why random elements are taken out whenever possible. If we could take out misfires, we would. If we could take out death turnips, we would. If we can take out items, we will.

I'm going to agree with you for the most part, but I think certain random occurances like death turnips and mis-fires add a bit of flavour to a moveset. Granted it is random, but unlike items, it is a randomness that both players have to deal with as they come. Both players know that at any time the Green Missile is fired, it could be a mis-fire, and both players have to prepare themselves for either of the two outcomes.

The same with, say, Peach's F-Smash. At one point, the Peach may want the frying pan but doesn't get it, at another point the Peach might KO the other player with the Golf Club, but the opponent could have survived against the Racket... it's just something you deal with in a different way than the random spawning of items.

 

[PXG]

I am not against anyone establishing tournaments allowing items. Hell, I encourage it. However, the competitive community is not going to change its ruling. We believe that items are too random and undermine and diminish the whole reason as to why we hold a tournament...for SKILL....PRIDE....MONEY...PRIZES! With such things on the line, it just not right, or fair to allow luck or random elements to determine an outcome of a match.

And whoever thinks we don't play for fun is a fool. Think about, even though we do play for other things, who in the right mind waste their time playing a VIDEO GAME, if it weren't fun to play? Seriously. As serious as some tournaments are, its still just a game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm going to agree with you for the most part, but I think certain random occurances like death turnips and mis-fires add a bit of flavour to a moveset. Granted it is random, but unlike items, it is a randomness that both players have to deal with as they come. Both players know that at any time the Green Missile is fired, it could be a mis-fire, and both players have to prepare themselves for either of the two outcomes.

You see, it would add so much move flavor if it was actually controllable or predictable. Like if every ninth side B with Luigi was a misfire, or if every 60th turnip was a death turnip (well, maybe the first death turnip could be your 10th turnip, and then afterwards it would be every 60th one)

The same with, say, Peach's F-Smash. At one point, the Peach may want the frying pan but doesn't get it, at another point the Peach might KO the other player with the Golf Club, but the opponent could have survived against the Racket... it's just something you deal with in a different way than the random spawning of items.

And yet wouldn't being able to actually control these things be so much better? Wouldn't being able to plan for a guaranteed golf club be better than hoping for one?

 

[BigRick]

Why do some ppl be talkin about cash when its only 2% of all that be gettin some?

 

[Kuroneko]

Game would be based on luck; if it spawned close to you or not.

People have stated before in different topics of the same nature, you can still run tournaments with items, but don't expect people to show up.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

Game would be based on luck; if it spawned close to you or not.

People have stated before in different topics of the same nature, you can still run tournaments with items, but don't expect people to show up.

The game would involve luck, but it would not be based on luck. I would expect players that do well without items to perform well with items. The selection of items, and their probability of appearing, is controlled.

Again, look at draft tournaments. They are often held when a new expansion comes out, or held in addition to tournaments with more standard rules. People have fun, and they are still competitive, often playing for money. The draft process is incredibly deep, and offers more variety than other formats, which usually involve people playing with the same three popular decks.

 

[Micahc]

I wonder if we would have a more competative community if the mods locked any item threads and banned the poster?

 

[Scicky]

I love how 80% of the posts in this thread consist of "you-fail"

You-fail

 

[Best101]

Here are some of my reasons for not having items on in competitive matches.

1)They're randomly appear, and they randomly appear in different parts of the stage. Also the item itself is randomly chosen by the game.

2)You also have to worry about the random exploding crates

3)You don't have to use an item to have an added advantage. You can throw the item. You wouldn't believe what you can do by simply throwing a fan repeatedly at your opponent.

4)It completely destroys the concept of edgeguarding. Instead of having to think of creative ways to keep your opponent off the stage, edgeguarding will become a game of finding the right item to chuck at your opponent. Items in this case actually takes skill away, and fun away from the competition.

5)Taking off unfair items so as to make the match more fair would only leave you with a few items to play with. Then you say that you can change the rate at which they appear so they can appear more slowly. Why bother with all the trouble when you can just take all the items off and not worry all of the above mentioned random factors items can bring.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

Here are some of my reasons for not having items on in competitive matches.

1)They're randomly appear, and they randomly appear in different parts of the stage. Also the item itself is randomly chosen by the game.

2)You also have to worry about the random exploding crates

3)You don't have to use an item to have an added advantage. You can throw the item. You wouldn't believe what you can do by simply throwing a fan repeatedly at your opponent.

4)It completely destroys the concept of edgeguarding. Instead of having to think of creative ways to keep your opponent off the stage, edgeguarding will become a game of finding the right item to chuck at your opponent. Items in this case actually takes skill away, and fun away from the competition.

5)Taking off unfair items so as to make the match more fair would only leave you with a few items to play with. Then you say that you can change the rate at which they appear so they can appear more slowly. Why bother with all the trouble when you can just take all the items off and not worry all of the above mentioned random factors items can bring.

1) I agree, but I do not see this as a problem.

2)You answer this with 5.

3)Throwing items is part of playing with them. You can also catch items (I don't know if this is true in Brawl). You would not want to give away your item to somebody who is really good at catching.

4)I would not call edgeguarding creative. If anything, throwing items opens up more options for edgeguarding.

5)Why bother? Because, for example, I would like to play with items in a tournament setting.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

I am not against anyone establishing tournaments allowing items. Hell, I encourage it. However, the competitive community is not going to change its ruling. We believe that items are too random and undermine and diminish the whole reason as to why we hold a tournament...for SKILL....PRIDE....MONEY...PRIZES! With such things on the line, it just not right, or fair to allow luck or random elements to determine an outcome of a match.

And whoever thinks we don't play for fun is a fool. Think about, even though we do play for other things, who in the right mind waste their time playing a VIDEO GAME, if it weren't fun to play? Seriously. As serious as some tournaments are, its still just a game.

They other side of this coin is that, if everyone paid money to play a tournament with items in it, they cant complain. They knew the risk and they took it. Everyone took that risk, so it evens out.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^If you don't believe that having someone randomly recieve the advantage is a problem, then you should try hosting your own tournaments and see who shows up. Most people agree, that if you paid to enter a tournament, then you should not be knocked out because something completely random happened. If there is $1000 on the line, you'd better make sure to get rid of as many random factors as you can.

And having everyone take a risk does not mean that it evens out. It means that it is now more likely for the enevitable to happen. Someone will get a win stolen from them, it's only a matter of time.

 

[Banjodorf]

You fail. You believe it's what the items DO that makes them banned? wrong.

Ever heard of random exploding barrels? Yes. I have. If you had 10,000 dollars on the line, and were winning, and a random barrel spawned on top of you, you attacked, hit the barrel, and died, you'd lose your chance of getting 10,000 dollars regardless of whether you were winning or not.

That is why items are banned.

And super-meters are not random, so it's not the same thing.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

^^If you don't believe that having someone randomly recieve the advantage is a problem, then you should try hosting your own tournaments and see who shows up. Most people agree, that if you paid to enter a tournament, then you should not be knocked out because something completely random happened. If there is $1000 on the line, you'd better make sure to get rid of as many random factors as you can.

And having everyone take a risk does not mean that it evens out. It means that it is now more likely for the enevitable to happen. Someone will get a win stolen from them, it's only a matter of time.

You missed my point. If items are on, and that is the format, and you pay to enter it, YOU CANT COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU. You should be fully aware of what might happen. Your paying to play the game this way, and youve paid to abide by those rules. Everyone has agreed to this, then you cant complain, because its happening to everyone else.

You fail. You believe it's what the items DO that makes them banned? wrong.

Ever heard of random exploding barrels? Yes. I have. If you had 10,000 dollars on the line, and were winning, and a random barrel spawned on top of you, you attacked, hit the barrel, and died, you'd lose your chance of getting 10,000 dollars regardless of whether you were winning or not.

That is why items are banned.

And super-meters are not random, so it's not the same thing.

This has been discussed in the topic already. I already talked about this in my post. Brawl fixes this.

 

[Same-Move Sammy]

^^If you don't believe that having someone randomly recieve the advantage is a problem, then you should try hosting your own tournaments and see who shows up. Most people agree, that if you paid to enter a tournament, then you should not be knocked out because something completely random happened. If there is $1000 on the line, you'd better make sure to get rid of as many random factors as you can.

And having everyone take a risk does not mean that it evens out. It means that it is now more likely for the enevitable to happen. Someone will get a win stolen from them, it's only a matter of time.

As stated before, any characters with moves with random effects completely undermines this. They receive random advantages. It's not about minimizing randomness if characters that can pull out random items (especially powerful items) are allowed in tournaments.

 

[Banjodorf]

You missed my point. If items are on, and that is the format, and you pay to enter it, YOU CANT COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU. You should be fully aware of what might happen. Your paying to play the game this way, and youve paid to abide by those rules. Everyone has agreed to this, then you cant complain, because its happening to everyone else.



This has been discussed in the topic already. I already talked about this in my post. Brawl fixes this.

actually, Brawl didnt fix this. Random, unmarked exploding BARRELS still exist. Only the crates may be turned off.

And even if barrels COULD be turned off, I gues you didnt see a particular video.

In this video, It's Pit vs. Lucario on Smashville. Sudden death. They fight for a minute, Pit sends lucario up off the screen. Right before Lucario gets Star-KO'd, a bob-omb falls unexpectedly right on top of pit, and pit dies before Lucario does, which is unfair, as pit was the clear winner.

If that was a money match, and YOU were competeing, and YOU were pit, you'd have been HELLA pissed.