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The Smash series is on the verge of getting as stale as Pokémon to me

HYRULESHERO42

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You included Mr. Game & Watch because you "didn't know who he was", and anyone interested in the NES games knows who Mike Jones and Mach Rider are. At this point, you should say that you want retro characters, that would be more accurate.
That would assume that every gamer knows the full catalog of Nintendo characters, which is unwise to do. I also want Wonder Red and Mallo. Those would be considered obscure (but not retro) to a vast majority of gamers. Maybe not us here on this forum, but to people who buy and play smash bros games now and in the future.
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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That would assume that every gamer knows the full catalog of Nintendo characters, which is unwise to do. I also want Wonder Red and Mallo. Those would be considered obscure (but not retro) to a vast majority of gamers. Maybe not us here on this forum, but to people who buy and play smash bros games now and in the future.
That's kind of the issue here. Your definition doesn't fit a lot of people's, and some aren't necessarily obscure to others. You're using something that's too subjective for a simple description.

That's a case where one should just list who they want, as examples, and hopefully it'll help get what you overall mean better. Cause as of now, there's no good way to define what you want into a few simple wrods.

---------------

That said, I do feel "everyone is here" is also a huge callback to Nintendo as well, as almost every character back is either 1st or "2nd" party to begin with. A ton of Nintendo characters returned, some either after missing a full game(I'm saying this as Smash 4 is one game total roster-wise) or 2. So while it's a callback to Smash's history, it's also a callback to Nintendo's history as well. Wolf, Ice Climbers, Young Link, Pichu, Ivysaur, Squirtle. Snake is the only returning 3rd party that was cut beforehand too. And this isn't counting how others luckily returned in Smash 4. Besides, most of the roster is still 1st party either way. So I don't know how it isn't legitimately celebrating Nintendo's history too. As well, there's a significant amount of Spirits more than Trophies at this point, so it also heavily acknowledges Nintendo's history. Smash never stopped celebrating Nintendo's history along with other 3rd party gaming history. It's just not always the "biggest" thing that brings players in like it used to be.

I don't disagree with having more cool Nintendo characters. Just in general, there's a ton who aren't there as is, like Mike Jones, whereas some are only kind of there like Porky(depending what the Absolute Safety Capsule was meant to be), and so on.
 

HYRULESHERO42

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It’s not like I’m the only person that uses the word obscure, which by the literally definition is a subjective term. The user base on this website nitpicks the most inane crap.

So humor me, how do you classify characters from games that only released in Japan, or only in America or Europe etc? How do you refer to characters from old NES games that never got sequels? Or characters from arcade cabinets that never came to home consoles? Or games that sold poorly and thus did not have large audiences familiar with them?

the catchall word is obscure.
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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It’s not like I’m the only person that uses the word obscure, which by the literally definition is a subjective term. The user base on this website nitpicks the most inane crap.

So humor me, how do you classify characters from games that only released in Japan, or only in America or Europe etc? How do you refer to characters from old NES games that never got sequels? Or characters from arcade cabinets that never came to home consoles? Or games that sold poorly and thus did not have large audiences familiar with them?

the catchall word is obscure.
And yet people still don't get what you mean. That's not on them. That's on you for not giving enough ifnormation. Just list who you mean as it comes up. You forget someone? No biggie. Add it to the list as soon as you can.

That's actually what gets people to know who you mean. Straight information. Besides, not all of those are even obscure characters. Characters can easily be iconic despite not releasing worldwide. They can also be iconic and obscure depending the region. Erdrick is iconic to Japan, but obscure in other regions in comparison. Neither are actual useful enough terms if you're not willing to actually list who you mean. You can easily throw characters into a category, sure. But just saying the category is often meaningless. Retro is subjective too, since it can either mean a style of sprites(like Shovel Knight) or characters from a sprite-based game at least 20 years back, and some might use it to mean "10 years ago", etc. And so on. Categories don't help pinpoint characters. Especially when tons of characters fit into multiple categories.

Notice what you described? That's actually useful information. Characters who only were released in one or two regions max helps pinpoints tons of characters you'd like to see(Fulgore from Killer Instinct isn't in a Japanese game, for instance, since the series only released in the US and slightly in Europe). Though there's not a huge amount of examples of this outside of Japan-only games, so a character like Ayumi and Mike(Startropics) is another good example. Ones you mentioned earlier, but at least your explanation you recently gave us is a lot more clear than using "obscure" which has a lot more meanings. There's a ton of games that released in every region but is relatively unknown(ever hear of Quest 64? Probably not. Most haven't. But it's an obscure game nonetheless, and only has gotten enough attention that it could someday become niche to the public, if even that). I shouldn't need to go on, but just remember that it's on you to elaborate. If you're forcing people to ask questions to understand you better, then it's clearly on you to explain your points far better. FYI, complaining that people don't understand a very unique word(that has more than one clear use) doesn't actually make people care about your points. Next time, the best answer is "this is who I mean, and I put them into these categories" so everybody gets your points better. It saves everyone a headache.
 

HYRULESHERO42

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So exactly where along this thread did I lose you? When I said I wanted Smash to go back to being about Nintendo history? Or when I disagreed with the notion that reps should only come from good/popular games? Or was it when I argued that Ice Climbers, G&W, and Pit became mainstream due to smash? How about addressing my actual posts instead of text walling me about a word you don’t like? Whether or not you agree with the definition of a word doesn’t excuse the fact that you haven’t read or addressed my posts and instead felt the desire to lecture me - a stranger on the internet - about opinions.

And since you’re probably not gonna read this either here’s a TL:DR - I welcome the addition of any and all Nintendo made characters into Smash. Especially playable fighters from series that have not yet been represented. Whether they were made in 1985 or 2021. If I lost you again, that’s on you.
 
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UserKev

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Its better to say you want more lesser known/Nintendo characters rather than labeling them obscure I guess.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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NGL, i just wish shared content wasnt just “18+ sexy Pyra, palutena, bayonetta, ZSS!!!” Its very easy to produce, but very popular because... reasons?
 

Quillion

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I'd like to remind everyone that while characters do add to the game, obscure, well-known, or otherwise, they alone aren't going to save Smash from being stale. They will need to be accompanied by mechanics that inform the game's core design and add more avenues for gameplay.
 

Quillion

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I'm blown away by Melee's Adventure Mode's replay value. That Mode is still Great and perfect. Smash 64's Board The Platforms even is still addictive. If we got a new Adventure Mode, I'd love it if we got a DK jungle, Earthbound, Yoshi Island, Little Mac and Wii Fit course level.
I'd say the replayability comes more from the shortness of the levels themselves and the speedrun potential, not so much from finding alternate paths or significant secrets.

I read somewhere, maybe on another thread, that we really do need an adventure mode that combines the best of Melee Adventure, SSE, and Smash Run (WoL is just a glorified Spirit Board). Something that combines the Nintendo worlds of Melee Adventure and Smash Run as well as the amount of content of SSE would be great.

That said, a side mode isn't going to save Smash from being stale either. Again, the change needs to happen to the core gameplay.
 

HYRULESHERO42

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How would they change the gameplay? The simplistic input commands and the universal application of said commands to every fighter is what separates Smash from traditional fighting games and allows it to remain accessible to an enormous user base. Unless I misunderstand your point I think overhauling the game play mechanics would be a terrible move.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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How would they change the gameplay? The simplistic input commands and the universal application of said commands to every fighter is what separates Smash from traditional fighting games and allows it to remain accessible to an enormous user base. Unless I misunderstand your point I think overhauling the game play mechanics would be a terrible move.
I think the main issue is related to the games defensive mechanics. Spotdodge is difficult to punish, especially because of spotdodge cancel which encourages mindless mashing, air dodge is a bad mechanic, shield is surprisingly weak in ultimate, with a plethora of command grabs and kill throws in the game. I don’t know how they could change them, but they are not very well thought out mechanics that aren’t terribly strong, but very frustrating to fight or to use.
If not the main issue, it’s certainly a contributing factor.
 
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UserKev

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I'd say the replayability comes more from the shortness of the levels themselves and the speedrun potential, not so much from finding alternate paths or significant secrets.
That's the point. Adventure Mode should be at most, simple while leaving room for difficulties at higher settings. It doesn't need to be more specific or try too hard. Its supposed to be fun.

I read somewhere, maybe on another thread, that we really do need an adventure mode that combines the best of Melee Adventure, SSE, and Smash Run (WoL is just a glorified Spirit Board). Something that combines the Nintendo worlds of Melee Adventure and Smash Run as well as the amount of content of SSE would be great.
Completely disagree. Anything SSE added on to anything would make them tedium and forgettable. There's no need to combine anything. Even Smash Run's aspects are already taken from Melee's Adventure Mode.

That said, a side mode isn't going to save Smash from being stale either. Again, the change needs to happen to the core gameplay.
Don't know what your trying to suggest here, bud.
 

Ice-N-Space

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I think Smash Bros has gotten stale with ultimate for these reasons

1. Attacks are to fast and safe
2. One on one is unbalance
3. All grabs are bad
4. Peach's grabs got changed
5. Gameplay focus to much on tournament players
6. Removing things like tripping
7. Story is to repetitive.
 

Shroob

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I think Smash Bros has gotten stale with ultimate for these reasons

1. Attacks are to fast and safe
2. One on one is unbalance
3. All grabs are bad
4. Peach's grabs got changed
5. Gameplay focus to much on tournament players
6. Removing things like tripping
7. Story is to repetitive.
There's a good reason that's gone.


No one liked tripping.
 

Quillion

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How would they change the gameplay? The simplistic input commands and the universal application of said commands to every fighter is what separates Smash from traditional fighting games and allows it to remain accessible to an enormous user base. Unless I misunderstand your point I think overhauling the game play mechanics would be a terrible move.
There are still ways to add to Smash's gameplay without compromising its simplicity. It's just like how the reveal of Pokémon Legends Arceus's Agile-Strong cooldown system was a minor cause of celebration since Game Freak finally figured out a way to truly iterate on the franchise's 6x4 battle system without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I would argue Pokémon's simplicity makes it stand out from any other JRPG, yet you won't hear the end of fans demanding that they innovate on that series.

If you're going to say, "Smash and Pokémon are different genres, and they need to be held to different standards," Kirby is a different genre from Pokémon as well, and that series is getting a lot of demands from its fandom to innovate as well.

Don't know what your trying to suggest here, bud.
What I'm saying is that while side modes, which all the 1P modes are, are nice to have, they're not the main meat and potatoes. As the video I posted above said, no one plays a game for the side content.

I think the main issue is related to the games defensive mechanics. Spotdodge is difficult to punish, especially because of spotdodge cancel which encourages mindless mashing, air dodge is a bad mechanic, shield is surprisingly weak in ultimate, with a plethora of command grabs and kill throws in the game. I don’t know how they could change them, but they are not very well thought out mechanics that aren’t terribly strong, but very frustrating to fight or to use.
If not the main issue, it’s certainly a contributing factor.
I just think the main issue is that Smash has more-or-less played the same with some physics changes for the general mechanics and frame changes for the individual characters. Yes, I get that Smash is a series, and all series follow a formula to some extent, but I don't think we should hold Smash to a lower standard of innovation compared to say Mario or Zelda.
 
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I think Smash Bros has gotten stale with ultimate for these reasons

1. Attacks are to fast and safe
2. One on one is unbalance
3. All grabs are bad
4. Peach's grabs got changed
5. Gameplay focus to much on tournament players
6. Removing things like tripping
7. Story is to repetitive.
I really hope you're not upset about Peach's changed grabs for the reason I think you are.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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I think Smash Bros has gotten stale with ultimate for these reasons

1. Attacks are to fast and safe
2. One on one is unbalance
3. All grabs are bad
4. Peach's grabs got changed
5. Gameplay focus to much on tournament players
6. Removing things like tripping
7. Story is to repetitive.
1. Tripping is awful
2. To say all grabs are bad while ignoring Luigi, DK, Bowser, Incineroar, and other grappler characters is just flat out wrong.

For your other points you are absolutely correct OR is unable to be argued due to how opinionated they are. The story was terrible, and many attacks are too safe for how strong or oppressive they are. I do disagree that one on one is too unbalanced, because smash ultimate is reasonably well balanced. I think that peach using toad is a great addition, but her back and down throws were some of my favorite just because they were so funny and out of place, kinda like her side B. Lastly, I think that the comp and casual balance is great, but I can see why you think its too competitive.
 

Ice-N-Space

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1. Tripping is awful
2. To say all grabs are bad while ignoring Luigi, DK, Bowser, Incineroar, and other grappler characters is just flat out wrong.

For your other points you are absolutely correct OR is unable to be argued due to how opinionated they are. The story was terrible, and many attacks are too safe for how strong or oppressive they are. I do disagree that one on one is too unbalanced, because smash ultimate is reasonably well balanced. I think that peach using toad is a great addition, but her back and down throws were some of my favorite just because they were so funny and out of place, kinda like her side B. Lastly, I think that the comp and casual balance is great, but I can see why you think its too competitive.
1. Tripping was fun and funny that's I want out of my games not frame data attacks.
2. Base grabs got nerf in Ultimate I'm not talking about "grab attacks".

What you saying is also opinionated. "I still hate toad and he doesn't add anything"
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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Tripping was mostly hated by the general fanbase. There are a minority of people who actually liked it. A smaller minority even want it to return(I'm fine with it gone, but I found it fun).

Anyway, I just want Toad playable. No, I don't mean Captain Toad. Entirely different character. I mean the actual main Toad. The guy from SMB2USA. That guy.
 

Quillion

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Brawl arguably has the best 1P content in the series (not that it's perfect), yet it comes with core gameplay ruined (not blemished or marred; ruined) by tripping. It's one of the biggest games polarized between good and bad elements ever. If we can learn anything from Brawl, it's that Smash shouldn't be treated like Mario Kart; it needs to be welcoming to all skill levels.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I think Smash Bros has gotten stale with ultimate for these reasons

1. Attacks are to fast and safe
2. One on one is unbalance
3. All grabs are bad
4. Peach's grabs got changed
5. Gameplay focus to much on tournament players
6. Removing things like tripping
7. Story is to repetitive.
  1. Shield-grabbing is still a thing though, so even if an attack is fast to execute, if it gets blocked at any point, then its ending lag will leave you vulnerable to counterattacks.
  2. The 1.2x damage multiplier explains a lot.
  3. This sounds like a joke, because some fighters have very powerful throws by their side; Ness's back throw being most notable. And of course, frame 6 grabs still exist.
  4. In fairness, Toad does get more screen time than just popping up for her neutral special.
  5. I don't watch very many tourneys, so I can't say much about this.
  6. Tripping still exists. It's just Brawl's random tripping mechanic that's gone.
  7. While spirit battles can be repetitive at times, they are an improvement over event matches, where you're forced to use specific characters.
 

Quillion

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I really want there to be a new category of moves for every character. TBH, I'm tired of being stuck with a jab, three tilts, three smashes, five aerials, four specials, and situational moves like getup attacks. We need something new to add to every character. I'm personally in favor of adding an "EX Special" mechanic and adding a meter that it draws from.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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I really want there to be a new category of moves for every character. TBH, I'm tired of being stuck with a jab, three tilts, three smashes, five aerials, four specials, and situational moves like getup attacks. We need something new to add to every character. I'm personally in favor of adding an "EX Special" mechanic and adding a meter that it draws from.
I would actually enjoy every character getting an extra special from an input command. This way DLC characters get more iconic moves and preexisting characters can use moves that are neglected by smash, like dead mans volley, BOTW link elemental arrows, blade of ultimate power, DK barrel, Mario ice balls, etc...
 
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HYRULESHERO42

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I would rather smash not become like other traditional fighting games. I don’t want character specific inputs to pull off combo moves. I don’t play fighting games for that reason. I don’t want to have to study and learn a character. I want to choose fighters on a whim and see how the established button layouts work for them compared to characters I’m already familiar with.
 

Linkmain-maybe

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I would rather smash not become like other traditional fighting games. I don’t want character specific inputs to pull off combo moves. I don’t play fighting games for that reason. I don’t want to have to study and learn a character. I want to choose fighters on a whim and see how the established button layouts work for them compared to characters I’m already familiar with.
I’m ok with specific inputs only if they are simple to do and can be used naturally in a match. Unlike terry, who is often seen randomly crouching and dashing when trying to input power geyser or BUSTA WOLF!!!
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Command input moves can feel rather distasteful at times, so I'm kind of happy that only a few fighters have that kind of feature. But I will say that Kazuya's command input moves are less finicky to execute when compared to what Ryu, Ken, and Terry have to go through.
 

Quillion

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Command inputs aren't exactly what I have in mind. I think a better solution would be to sacrifice either the X or Y button for a Super-type move. This way, everyone gets a move without becoming overcomplicated.

This would remove the two-button short hop macro, but I think the jumpsquat could be standardized to 4 frames to compensate.
 

HYRULESHERO42

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Command inputs aren't exactly what I have in mind. I think a better solution would be to sacrifice either the X or Y button for a Super-type move. This way, everyone gets a move without becoming overcomplicated.

This would remove the two-button short hop macro, but I think the jumpsquat could be standardized to 4 frames to compensate.
Ah ok ok I’m following you. I could get behind that as long as these special moves are ridiculously broken. Not everyone needs a Falcon Punch etc etc etc
 

Quillion

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Ah ok ok I’m following you. I could get behind that as long as these special moves are ridiculously broken. Not everyone needs a Falcon Punch etc etc etc
Yeah, what I want is for the Y or X button to become the "Super Special" button, making it so that it essentially is the button for souped-up specials at the cost of a meter. There would even be Neutral-Y/X, Side-Y/X, Up-Y/X, and Down-Y/X.

Heck, the assets for the failed Custom Move system in Smash 4 could be repurposed for the Super Special system. Imagine if Mario has a more reliable version of his "Big Fireball" for his Neutral-Y/X. Going off of your Falcon Punch example, Captain Falcon's Neutral-Y/X could be blue-colored, but is instead a "quick" Falcon Punch.
 
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