• The new bonus episode of the Smash Brothers Documentary Metagame, Godslayer, is now available on Vimeo

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Smash series is on the verge of getting as stale as Pokémon to me

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
I'd been a big fan of the series since Melee, and I've even gone back and played a bit of 64 during that time. With every previous game, I've played them extensively, trying every character in VS mode and playing through all the single player content I can. But with Ultimate, I just don't feel that spark anymore. I keep getting the impressions "I've been playing as these same characters for years" and "I've been playing this same general game for years," and both bother me.

People will bring up that the game feel between each installment has been different with general physics changes and specific frame and damage changes. I get that those things matter a lot at the high level, but to me, that's like saying Twilight Princess's regular sword combos and additional sword skills get said game out of Ocarina of Time's shadow, and enough people will disagree to make that wrong. It's also like saying the Pokémon Black and White's faster movement and battle pace makes it completely different from Diamond and Pearl.

People will also bring up that the series continuously introduces new characters with new moves and abilities, but doesn't Pokémon do that too? The latter series can't escape the criticism of being stagnant on account of new characters and moves being added, so why does Smash?

I wouldn't say Smash is all the way there in regards to being stagnant; the game has only had five main series installments after all, not really much in the grand scheme of things. But if nothing is done to address this by the sixth game, the series will just become as stale as Pokémon.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2,814
Location
Jinbe Land
I think Smash is getting stale, but I don't agree on why - I like that Smash can keep its general mechanics and movesets the same (though some - like Sonic - do need changes)

My problems are that:
  1. newcomers and the ways they're revealed are getting increasingly extravagant and therefore kicking out lesser known characters
  2. the aesthetic is slowly getting more and more corporate and lifeless with each game
  3. the series is taking itself way too seriously with the genocide-themed story mode and verge-of-tears sob song theme.
  4. Lack of experimentation with recent stages, always aiming for a balance instead of going strictly competitive or strictly casual.
 
Last edited:

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
My problems are that newcomers and the ways they're revealed are getting increasingly extravagant
I agree with this. Like I've discussed on another thread, much of the newer characters are getting increasingly gimmicky and over-complex, as they seem to want to bring in as many mechanics from their home games as humanly possible instead of reworking them into Smash's limitations.

the aesthetic is slowly getting more and more corporate and lifeless, and the series is taking itself way too seriously with the whole genocide-themed story mode and verge-of-tears sob song theme.
What do either of these mean though? Also, isn't the latter exclusively an Ultimate thing? How does that make it stale?
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2,814
Location
Jinbe Land
What do either of these mean though? Also, isn't the latter exclusively an Ultimate thing? How does that make it stale?
Look at these:

Now look at this:

It looks no different from a Google ad, and is made even worse when put side by side by any of the prior instalments' menus, especially Melee or 64. Doesn't really harm the gameplay but takes away from the overall experience.

The latter is indeed technically an SSBU thing, but Brawl's theme song was also a little overdramatic so I would not be surpirsed for future Smashes to not learn it doesn't work.

I agree with this. Like I've discussed on another thread, much of the newer characters are getting increasingly gimmicky and over-complex, as they seem to want to bring in as many mechanics from their home games as humanly possible instead of reworking them into Smash's limitations.
I do agree there, but I was actually moreso refering to the character choices themselves. A well-known DLC lineup is justifable, but SSBU base game's characters were either iconic or fan favouries, no true nobodies.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
Look at these:

Now look at this:

It looks no different from a Google ad, and is made even worse when put side by side by any of the prior instalments' menus, especially Melee or 64. Doesn't really harm the gameplay but takes away from the overall experience.

The latter is indeed technically an SSBU thing, but Brawl's theme song was also a little overdramatic so I would not be surpirsed for future Smashes to not learn it doesn't work.


I do agree there, but I was actually moreso refering to the character choices themselves. A well-known DLC lineup is justifable, but SSBU base game's characters were either iconic or fan favouries, no true nobodies.
Well, I personally like the signature "Sakurai menu". It was in other games after all:

1631030120744.png

Ultimate's iteration of the Sakurai menu does look a little mobile-ish though.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
Can't stand why Sakurai would use the Persona menu theme aesthetic into Ultimate. Highly interested in Miyamoto as next director.

Smash isn't as special it once was tho. One solution I can see, Smash may need to go back pure mode and ditch heavy third party and focus on modes and making priorities for the "One off" character that are otherwise highly requested or from critically acclaimed games.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
Smash isn't as special it once was tho. One solution I can see, Smash may need to go back pure mode and ditch heavy third party and focus on modes and making priorities for the "One off" character that are otherwise highly requested or from critically acclaimed games.
I think as long as they recycle the models and animations from Ultimate for a future game, we can get all the modes back AND have all the characters too.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
Another critique of mine, music should never be unlockable in Smash. I miss discovering the themes that would sometimes randomly play after playing on my favorite stages multiple times.

I don't know why Sakurai thought such a unfavorable process would do anything.
I feel like the coin shop in Ultimate makes the process fine. You don't need to scramble for a CD or anything.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
99
To be fair Smash 4 skipped having a "melodramatic" lyrical theme. And not coincidentally, it seems that Smash 4's main theme is the most forgotten of them all in the series.
Sm4sh had a very generic sounding theme. But I still prefer it over LifeLight’s cringe worthy lyrics.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
Anyway, I'm gonna be the contrarian and disagree with a lot of y'all.


I think Smash is getting stale, but I don't agree on why - I like that Smash can keep its general mechanics and movesets the same (though some - like Sonic - do need changes)

My problems are that:
  1. newcomers and the ways they're revealed are getting increasingly extravagant and therefore kicking out lesser known characters
  2. the aesthetic is slowly getting more and more corporate and lifeless with each game
  3. the series is taking itself way too seriously with the genocide-themed story mode and verge-of-tears sob song theme.
  4. Lack of experimentation with recent stages, always aiming for a balance instead of going strictly competitive or strictly casual.
1. Newcomer reveals have always been 'extravagant' as far back as Brawl. The only thing that's changed is the budget and marketing towards them. No 'smaller' character is being passed over in favor, or else we wouldn't have characters like K.Rool, Terry or Banjo.

2. The aesthetic is Smash. It looks a hell of a lot better than Brawl could ever hope for, and blows Smash 4 out of the water no question.

3. Already explained above why this is a non-issue.

4. Completely subjective. Where exactly does the 'middle-ground' exist here? Because what you may think it is could vary drastically for someone else.
Can't stand why Sakurai would use the Persona menu theme aesthetic into Ultimate. Highly interested in Miyamoto as next director.

Smash isn't as special it once was tho. One solution I can see, Smash may need to go back pure mode and ditch heavy third party and focus on modes and making priorities for the "One off" character that are otherwise highly requested or from critically acclaimed games.
God, no.


One of the biggest parts of Smash is the crossover appeal nowadays. You remove that, what are you left with? A bunch of B-Z list Nintendo characters filling the void and the playerbase droppig like a rock due to a lack of attempt to pull in new blood. You want 'more modes'? Like.... what? Target Smash? A mode they bastardized in Brawl and made even worse in Smash 4? Hate to break it to ya, but if 30+ characters was too much for Smash, then we're never getting unique Target Smash again.


Adventure Mode? We got one. It may not be 'fun', but Subspace wasn't fun either.

And after that, what exactly are we missing that other Smash games had? We have Classic Mode, and a legit good Classic Mode at that, we have Home Run Contest, we have Stage Builder, Multi-Man Melee, Spirits effectively are event battles, versus is here, online is online like the only thing I really miss is a proper All-Star Mode and Trophies, but I can live without Trophies, since that's a ton of work for basically no payoff. Also, better online obviously.


3rd Parties keep people talking about Smash. Compare the absolute freakout that characters like Steve or Sephiroth caused compared to say, Min Min, or Pythra, all characters in the same pass. Is it 'unfair' to compare them? Probably, but that's also a testament to how big 3rd parties getting into Smash are. Without them, who is Nintendo going to market DLC characters to? Us? The people who already bought the game and who were already going to buy the DLC regardless? Where's the fresh blood? Where's the new money coming from. Nintendo catering exclusively to Nintendo fans is... not as good as an idea as you'd think it'd be, as crazy as that sounds. All that does is stagnate the series and playerbase.


If you're feeling that Smash "isn't as special as it once was", I can't help but feel like it's less that Smash isn't as special, and more you're not happy with the character choices tbh. Maybe I'm completely off base, but whenever I see "We need to cut back on 3rd parties!", that's almost always the case.
 
Last edited:

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
Shroob Shroob : You disagree with a lot of people but not me? I kinda feel left out...

One of the biggest parts of Smash is the crossover appeal nowadays. You remove that, what are you left with? A bunch of B-Z list Nintendo characters filling the void and the playerbase droppig like a rock due to a lack of attempt to pull in new blood.
I keep saying this, but Smash is an icon-maker at this point. The star power of the bigger Nintendo characters help lift the profile of the B-Z list characters. This has happened as far back as Melee with the Ice Climbers.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
Shroob Shroob : You disagree with a lot of people but not me? I kinda feel left out...



I keep saying this, but Smash is an icon-maker at this point. The star power of the bigger Nintendo characters help lift the profile of the B-Z list characters. This has happened as far back as Melee with the Ice Climbers.
Debatable.

Ice Climbers are known for being in Smash, but their home game is obscure as ever.

Captain Falcon hasn't gotten a new game since the Gamecube despite Smash frankly showering him in love.

Lucas being in Brawl never got Mother 3 localized.

Kid Icarus: Uprising sold over a million units, which is impressive for a series which had at that point 2 entries, but way less than Nintendo probably wanted it too, especially with how much advertising they pumped into it, and as far as we know, they still have no plans to do anything with the IP over a decade later.

The one thing it DID do, is open up the west for Fire Emblem, and at the time, Marth and Roy were being considered cut from Melee.

Smash can renew interest in series sure, but does that equate to sales? Not always, and with Nintendo being Nintendo, they may just not want to do anything with the IP.


Look at say, Golden Sun, a series that has a strong, STRONG fan support to get Isaac in as a playable character, but Nintendo has zero desire to revive the IP anytime soon.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2,814
Location
Jinbe Land
1. Newcomer reveals have always been 'extravagant' as far back as Brawl. The only thing that's changed is the budget and marketing towards them. No 'smaller' character is being passed over in favor, or else we wouldn't have characters like K.Rool, Terry or Banjo.

2. The aesthetic is Smash. It looks a hell of a lot better than Brawl could ever hope for, and blows Smash 4 out of the water no question.

3. Already explained above why this is a non-issue.

4. Completely subjective. Where exactly does the 'middle-ground' exist here? Because what you may think it is could vary drastically for someone else.
  1. In what world are Banjo, Terry and K. Rool "smaller" characters? I mean the Z-listers, that's what I want. Not quirky cult classics or icons who fell to obscurity, but obscure and unknown characters neither zoomers nor boomers could give a damn about. First or third party, I don't care.
  2. There is no one Smash aesthetic. 64 was wrestling-inspired with a small hint of Factory PoMo, Melee was clear as day Y2K with a clear Matrix influence, Brawl was also technological but with the Y2K imfluence stripped away, 3DS and Wii U had more of a comic/pop art appearance, albeit more subtly got across, but now Ultimate is just a Chromebook advert. Note when I say "aesthetic", I mean menus and UI.
  3. No? You didn't? I checked all your posts on this thread, not a single one talks about Smash melodrama outside of "Brawl had it too"
  4. When I say "Middle Ground", I mean stages like Dracula's Castle and Spiral Mountain which are clearly based on a casual player's misinterpretation of competitive play, lacking much in the way of hazards but also having layouts that could never see competitive use.
Debatable.

Ice Climbers are known for being in Smash, but their home game is obscure as ever.

Captain Falcon hasn't gotten a new game since the Gamecube despite Smash frankly showering him in love.

Lucas being in Brawl never got Mother 3 localized.

Kid Icarus: Uprising sold over a million units, which is impressive for a series which had at that point 2 entries, but way less than Nintendo probably wanted it too, especially with how much advertising they pumped into it, and as far as we know, they still have no plans to do anything with the IP over a decade later.

The one thing it DID do, is open up the west for Fire Emblem, and at the time, Marth and Roy were being considered cut from Melee.

Smash can renew interest in series sure, but does that equate to sales? Not always, and with Nintendo being Nintendo, they may just not want to do anything with the IP.
You know that game series can just die, right? The problem isn't Smash, the problem isn't series disappearing, the problem is that Nintendo never tell people when their series end. Sakurai himself stated he didn't want to do any KI projects after Uprising.

Also, yeah, Mother 3 not getting localised isn't really about sales or Smash but more about the game's pro-communist themes. Even if they could censor the hot springs scene, you would have to rework everything about the game to make it not controversial in American shores.
 
Last edited:

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,765
Debatable.

Ice Climbers are known for being in Smash, but their home game is obscure as ever.

Captain Falcon hasn't gotten a new game since the Gamecube despite Smash frankly showering him in love.

Lucas being in Brawl never got Mother 3 localized.

Kid Icarus: Uprising sold over a million units, which is impressive for a series which had at that point 2 entries, but way less than Nintendo probably wanted it too, especially with how much advertising they pumped into it, and as far as we know, they still have no plans to do anything with the IP over a decade later.

The one thing it DID do, is open up the west for Fire Emblem, and at the time, Marth and Roy were being considered cut from Melee.

Smash can renew interest in series sure, but does that equate to sales? Not always, and with Nintendo being Nintendo, they may just not want to do anything with the IP.


Look at say, Golden Sun, a series that has a strong, STRONG fan support to get Isaac in as a playable character, but Nintendo has zero desire to revive the IP anytime soon.
What I meant is that Smash isn't necessarily going to make each IP into a mega-seller, but instead it makes every character in it into an icon. Whether that be through being known for being in Smash or otherwise.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
  1. In what world are Banjo, Terry and K. Rool "smaller" characters? I mean the Z-listers, that's what I want. Not quirky cult classics or icons who fell to obscurity, but obscure and unknown characters. First or third party, I don't care.
  2. There is no one Smash aesthetic. 64 was wrestling-inspired with a small hint of Factory PoMo, Melee was clear as day Y2K with a clear Matrix influence, Brawl was also technological but with the Y2K imfluence stripped away, 3DS and Wii U had more of a comic/pop art appearance, albeit more subtly got across, but now Ultimate is just a Chromebook advert. Note when I say "aesthetic", I mean menus and UI.
  3. No? You didn't? I checked all your posts on this thread, not a single one talks about Smash melodrama outside of "Brawl had it too"
  4. When I say "Middle Ground", I mean stages like Dracula's Castle and Spiral Mountain which are clearly based on a casual player's misinterpretation of competitive play, lacking much in the way of hazards but also having layouts that could never see competitive use.
1. The Z-Listers never had a shot to begin with. Aside from Plant, which is put in as a 'haha joke' character, we've never had a z-lister even in Smash outside of trophies. The absolute most we've ever gotten were Retro characters, but even then I wouldn't consider say, Kid Icarus or Duck Hunt Z-list titles. Maybe Ice Climber, but that's maybe it.

2. I like Ultimate's UIs. Just because something's streamlined doesn't mean it's bad. Granted, I love Melee's menus, but I can like both.

3. It's a non-issue because it's not important. We've had 'melodrama' since Brawl, and hell, you could argue even earlier with Melee due to Giga Bowser and Crazy Hand being extremely edgy for the former and dark for the latter, Hell, you could even make a case for 64 due to the opening movie and the battle with Master Hand. Smash 'taking itself too seriously' is a joke, when you can have Diddy Kong make Ganondorf trip on a banana peel on Wii Fit studio.

4. Alright, so gimme an example of something that is. Because we have over 110 stages now.



What I meant is that Smash isn't necessarily going to make each IP into a mega-seller, but instead it makes every character in it into an icon. Whether that be through being known for being in Smash or otherwise.
Alright? I don't inherently disagree with that. That is true, but the original point was that the person was advocating for a heavy 3rd party character cut, which would do more harm than good.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2,814
Location
Jinbe Land
1. The Z-Listers never had a shot to begin with. Aside from Plant, which is put in as a 'haha joke' character, we've never had a z-lister even in Smash outside of trophies. The absolute most we've ever gotten were Retro characters, but even then I wouldn't consider say, Kid Icarus or Duck Hunt Z-list titles. Maybe Ice Climber, but that's maybe it.

2. I like Ultimate's UIs. Just because something's streamlined doesn't mean it's bad. Granted, I love Melee's menus, but I can like both.

3. It's a non-issue because it's not important. We've had 'melodrama' since Brawl, and hell, you could argue even earlier with Melee due to Giga Bowser and Crazy Hand being extremely edgy for the former and dark for the latter, Hell, you could even make a case for 64 due to the opening movie and the battle with Master Hand. Smash 'taking itself too seriously' is a joke, when you can have Diddy Kong make Ganondorf trip on a banana peel on Wii Fit studio.

4. Alright, so gimme an example of something that is. Because we have over 110 stages now.
  1. Piranha Plant is not a Z-lister, the Ice Climbers are. I want more characters like the Ice Climbers who nobody has ever heard of.
  2. Streamlined is defined as "efficient and effective". That Ready to Fight banner is not effective. If you mean "simplicity is good"... it's not. Why do you think people were making fun of the "big tech artstyle" a while back? Simplicity can be good, but not lacking personality. SSBU's menus have no personality and are extremely frustrating
  3. My point exactly - a game where the Duck Hunt dog can punch Bayonetta should not have a theme song about the fRaGiLiTy Of LiFe or a storyline where a robot is tricked into partaking in the genocide of his entire race. Stuff like Crazy Hand or Giga Bowser are fine because they're not how the game is primarily presenting itself. The balance needs to be there, think how Shadow was a great side character because he showed a darker side to the Sonic world, but once he got into the spotlight he became a Poochie-tier joke.
  4. I gave examples! Spiral Mountain and Drac's Castle! Those are the stages I don't like - I'd prefer stages be an easy split between competitive (Smashville, FoD, Yoshi's Story) and casual (Hyrule Castle, Pac-Land, Temple)
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
  1. Piranha Plant is not a Z-lister, the Ice Climbers are. I want more characters like the Ice Climbers who nobody has ever heard of.
  2. Streamlined is defined as "efficient and effective". That Ready to Fight banner is not effective. If you mean "simplicity is good"... it's not. Why do you think people were making fun of the "big tech artstyle" a while back? Simplicity can be good, but not lacking personality. SSBU's menus have no personality and are extremely frustrating
  3. My point exactly - a game where the Duck Hunt dog can punch Bayonetta should not have a theme song about the fRaGiLiTy Of LiFe or a storyline where a robot is tricked into partaking in the genocide of his entire race. Stuff like Crazy Hand or Giga Bowser are fine because they're not how the game is primarily presenting itself. The balance needs to be there, think how Shadow was a great side character because he showed a darker side to the Sonic world, but once he got into the spotlight he became a Poochie-tier joke.
  4. I gave examples! Spiral Mountain and Drac's Castle! Those are the stages I don't like - I'd prefer stages be an easy split between competitive (Smashville, FoD, Yoshi's Story) and casual (Hyrule Castle, Pac-Land, Temple)
1. I mean, I'd love stuff like say, Fawful, I know damn well that Fawful would never get in Smash. Smash is Nintendo putting their best foot forward, of course they'd want it to be full of recognizable characters. Nothing wrong with wanting more niche characters of course, but it also doesn't surprise me that the majority of the roster are going to be big, iconic characters either, since it's a game that's primarily about Nintendo's history, which usually ends up focusing more on the 'big' characters. Characters like Mr.Game and Watch unironically did more for Nintendo than say, Stanley the Bug Man or Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, and even Ice Climbers are lucky because Sakurai wanted them for their gimmick of being a duo character more than them being who they were.

2. Again, I disagree, but this is 100% a matter of personal taste, so there's really not a debate to be had here aside from "I like this" "No, you're wrong" "I disagree".

3. I mean, who cares? Legit, who cares. The majority of Smash fans don't even remember what the hell happened in Subspace's story at this point, and frankly, the story modes in fighting games are always the weakest part and just there for a paltry single player content. Look at any fighting game, Street Fighter, Blazblue, etc and you'll see that the story mode is just 'there' for you to do once and never again. I think you're putting way too much stock into a mode that the majority of people will do once and never again. Like, Street Fighter's 'plot' involves secret shadow organizations hell bent on taking over the world with genetically engineered super soldiers.... and no one cares because no one buys Street Fighter for the story mode.

4. This seems kinda narrow minded. The fact that you only want stages that can be 1 of 2 ways with no wiggle room in between is..... eh? Especially since Sakurai doesn't decide what stages are 'competitve' or not, it's the community. It feels like if you do that, you strip away creative freedom and basically say "No, this stage is competitive" "This stage is casual." "There are no in-betweens for people who don't want either."
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
God, no.


One of the biggest parts of Smash is the crossover appeal nowadays. You remove that, what are you left with? A bunch of B-Z list Nintendo characters filling the void and the playerbase droppig like a rock due to a lack of attempt to pull in new blood. You want 'more modes'? Like.... what? Target Smash? A mode they bastardized in Brawl and made even worse in Smash 4? Hate to break it to ya, but if 30+ characters was too much for Smash, then we're never getting unique Target Smash again.


Adventure Mode? We got one. It may not be 'fun', but Subspace wasn't fun either.

And after that, what exactly are we missing that other Smash games had? We have Classic Mode, and a legit good Classic Mode at that, we have Home Run Contest, we have Stage Builder, Multi-Man Melee, Spirits effectively are event battles, versus is here, online is online like the only thing I really miss is a proper All-Star Mode and Trophies, but I can live without Trophies, since that's a ton of work for basically no payoff. Also, better online obviously.


If you're feeling that Smash "isn't as special as it once was", I can't help but feel like it's less that Smash isn't as special, and more you're not happy with the character choices tbh. Maybe I'm completely off base, but whenever I see "We need to cut back on 3rd parties!", that's almost always the case.
Master Orders has fun potential and should be reworked. You could even throw in a Bowser's Orders if you really want to get creative. A Survival Mode is clearly missing, its irritating. Or Smash Tower should definitely become a thing. I agree that Ultimate's Classic Mode is great for what its worth.

New Modes or reworks of older modes can easily be done tho with the right timing and inspiration. Or, you just need an exciting title for the mode that will give you an idea how the mode will work. Race To The Finish is a timeless example of this.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
Master Orders has fun potential and should be reworked. You could even throw in a Bowser's Orders if you really want to get creative. A Survival Mode is clearly missing, its irritating. Or Smash Tower should definitely become a thing. I agree that Ultimate's Classic Mode is great for what its worth.

New Modes or reworks of older modes can easily be done tho with the right timing and inspiration. Or, you just need an exciting title for the mode that will give you an idea how the mode will work. Race To The Finish is a timeless example of this.
Thing about Master Orders is we don't have enough collectable content in Smash Ult to really justify it. We have an entire spirit board, so you can't/probably shouldn't put spirits there, and what are you left with? CDs and Mii costumes? Both of which are really, really easy to obtain?


When you had stuff like, trophies, custom moves, special stat items, sure, but there's just not enough collectables to really justify its inclusion.


Survival mode is, as much as I hate to say it, effectively the new All-Star mode.

And Smash Tower was always a rumor, it was never real in the first place. Sure, it's neat, but it also never existed.



I mean, we 'have' Race to the Finish. It may not be called that, but the mini-game we get in Classic Mode is 100% Race to the Finish.
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
Thing about Master Orders is we don't have enough collectable content in Smash Ult to really justify it. We have an entire spirit board, so you can't/probably shouldn't put spirits there, and what are you left with? CDs and Mii costumes? Both of which are really, really easy to obtain?


When you had stuff like, trophies, custom moves, special stat items, sure, but there's just not enough collectables to really justify its inclusion.


Survival mode is, as much as I hate to say it, effectively the new All-Star mode.

And Smash Tower was always a rumor, it was never real in the first place. Sure, it's neat, but it also never existed.



I mean, we 'have' Race to the Finish. It may not be called that, but the mini-game we get in Classic Mode is 100% Race to the Finish.
You don't get it? Master Orders could easily be the sequel to Events Match but was lazily done in Smash 4. Its a Mode with a lot of missing potential.

I thought of this lol but nah. Survival Mode should still have its own separate mode. All Star Mode is just All Star Mode. Survival Mode would be completely random. But you could have franchise match ups divided by order or A-Z arranged.

That's the point. Imagine if we got Smash Tower? See how incredible it would've been? Smash Tower is a rumor but shouldn't be. Its funny like that.

All props to you. Your a great Smash debater across the boards, but your last sentence regarding Race To The Finish is really missing the point.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
You don't get it? Master Orders could easily be the sequel to Events Match but was lazily done in Smash 4. Its a Mode with a lot of missing potential.

I thought of this lol but nah. Survival Mode should still have its own separate mode. All Star Mode is just All Star Mode. Survival Mode would be completely random. But you could have franchise match ups divided by order or A-Z arranged.

That's the point. Imagine if we got Smash Tower? See how incredible it would've been? Smash Tower is a rumor but shouldn't be. Its funny like that.

All props to you. Your a great Smash debater across the boards, but your last sentence regarding Race To The Finish is really missing the point.
I mean, that's what Spirits are though. As much as even I don't like to admit it, Spirits effectively 'are' the replacement for Event Matches. They're battles that are set up in reference to something, with pre-determined conditions to make the fight 'different' than a standard battle. They may never be unique as some of Melee's sure, but to be honest, even Brawl didn't have as unique of Event Matches as Melee did. Melee could do more unique **** simply because it had less to work with in a weird way.


As for the Tower of Smash thing, I mean, sure, but I can't really put too much thought into it since it never existed in the first place. I could dream up dozens of things I'd like, but they're just that, dreams. I can't hold it against a game for something that the devs probably never even thought of.


I admit, I read the last part incorrectly, that's on me.



Regardless, the thing to remember though, is that Smash is at its core, a fighting game, which usually... don't have a lot of single-player content period. They usually have a slapped together story mode, and that's it. While I'm not going to say it's wrong to want more out of Smash, because it's always okay to want more(within reason), I also feel like Ultimate's 'fine' in regards to Single-Player content. We got Stage Builder and HRC added in post-launch, the only thing I'd personally want is a fixed All-Star Mode, but with 80+ characters, I understand why they did what they did(Even if I don't like it).


I guess I feel like focusing harder on "Single-player content" is just not the 'right' direction to focus on Smash, since, I mean, the main mode for Smash will always be the Versus, the single player stuff is just bonus.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
I mean, that's what Spirits are though. As much as even I don't like to admit it, Spirits effectively 'are' the replacement for Event Matches. They're battles that are set up in reference to something, with pre-determined conditions to make the fight 'different' than a standard battle. They may never be unique as some of Melee's sure, but to be honest, even Brawl didn't have as unique of Event Matches as Melee did. Melee could do more unique **** simply because it had less to work with in a weird way.


As for the Tower of Smash thing, I mean, sure, but I can't really put too much thought into it since it never existed in the first place. I could dream up dozens of things I'd like, but they're just that, dreams. I can't hold it against a game for something that the devs probably never even thought of.


I admit, I read the last part incorrectly, that's on me.



Regardless, the thing to remember though, is that Smash is at its core, a fighting game, which usually... don't have a lot of single-player content period. They usually have a slapped together story mode, and that's it. While I'm not going to say it's wrong to want more out of Smash, because it's always okay to want more(within reason), I also feel like Ultimate's 'fine' in regards to Single-Player content. We got Stage Builder and HRC added in post-launch, the only thing I'd personally want is a fixed All-Star Mode, but with 80+ characters, I understand why they did what they did(Even if I don't like it).


I guess I feel like focusing harder on "Single-player content" is just not the 'right' direction to focus on Smash, since, I mean, the main mode for Smash will always be the Versus, the single player stuff is just bonus.
The only notion in your post I don't agree with is your statement on modes. Strangely, modes are what helped put Smash on the map but many people seem to have forgotten about it and are content with characters. They used to be one of Smash most defining points.

Remember that new modes can be easily done with the right timing. "Smash Tower" is such an out there blurt that I'm positive Sakurai has given some thought.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
The only notion in your post I don't agree with is your statement on modes. Strangely, modes are what helped put Smash on the map but many people seem to have forgotten about it and are content with characters. They used to be one of Smash most defining points.

Remember that new modes can be easily done with the right timing. "Smash Tower" is such an out there blurt that I'm positive Sakurai has given some thought.
I think the thing to remember is that, as the roster grows, the smaller, less important modes suffer due to it. And this isn't exclusive to Ultimate, this has been here since Brawl.


Smash 64 and Melee gave each character a unique Target Test stage, but Brawl did away with that entirely, because designing unique ones probably just wasn't on their radar, and in Smash 4, it got worse.

Event matches have become progressively less interesting as the games have gone on, and probably due to there being soo many characters in Smash 4, it got even less interesting.

Some modes are immune to this, like Classic mode, since every character needs a Classic mode, DLC or not, but then you have All Star Mode which, while I hate to admit it, because I don't like Ultimate's Classic Mode, I also have to admit that an All-Star Mode with nearly 90 characters, and needing to clear it with every character? Would be tedious as hell and simply not fun. I 'want' a Classic All-Star Mode, but then I look at how much of a slog it'd be, and it shakes my resolve severely.



The trade off of big roster, is less, less-important modes, or, they get cut back substantially. To 'me' personally, the most important modes in Smash are, in no particular order, are Classic, Versus, Multi-Man Melee, Home Run Contest, -a- form of collectable item, Stage Builder, and Online, which Ultimate has, so I'm perfectly content in regards to the Single-Player content, give or take a real All-Star Mode.


But I also don't think it's fair to pin the blame on Ultimate when, we were already seeing signs of this back in Brawl, and Brawl had less than half of Ult's roster count.

The only way, IMO, we're getting more single-player content in future games that doesn't fall into an already established niche, is if say, Smash 6 is a DRASTIC drop-off of characters, which, I don't personally think is worth it, but that's my opinion.
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
Another critique, Am I seriously the only who thinks Stage Builder should be done away with? I really like Stage Builder but the feature has become such a joke Smash would really benefit again without. It will never have the depth of actual "creating" a stage and I find my self depressed after creating one.

A Events Match Creation is where its at. Give us the option to write descriptions, set up our selected characters to the specifically themed match, character alt customs and any selectable themes. The mode could even depend on how much we currently have unlocked, giving us the full extensive slots for matches after every character, stage and theme is unlocked.
 

PeridotGX

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 8, 2017
Messages
7,093
Location
That Distant Shore
NNID
Denoma5280
Switch FC
2036-9032-5151
Out of curiosity's sake - what would your preferred Smash look like? I have few problems with Ultimate, and most of those are very minor complaints.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2,814
Location
Jinbe Land
Out of curiosity's sake - what would your preferred Smash look like? I have few problems with Ultimate, and most of those are very minor complaints.
There'd be a high emphasis on obscure characters, competitive design would come first but with plenty of casual content as well (though it wouldn't be Melee 2 either), the aesthetic would be very similar to Smash 64's, there would be no story mode and minimal single-player options in favour of a variety of multiplayer options, (Smashketball, combo contests, e.t.c.) There would be no shill picks - possibly even a "must've debuted 4 or more years ago" rule to prevent them, fan demand for characters would only be listened to when reasonable, lots of alt costumes, the Dojo format returning for character reveals, and pre-and-post-battle character quotes.
 

Shroob

Sup?
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
33,072
Location
Washington
Another critique, Am I seriously the only who thinks Stage Builder should be done away with? I really like Stage Builder but the feature has become such a joke Smash would really benefit again without. It will never have the depth of actual "creating" a stage and I find my self depressed after creating one.

A Events Match Creation is where its at. Give us the option to write descriptions, set up our selected characters to the specifically themed match, character alt customs and any selectable themes. The mode could even depend on how much we currently have unlocked, giving us the full extensive slots for matches after every character, stage and theme is unlocked.
I don't see what the point of this mode would be. We have stuff like Special Smash already in game to create 'weird' Smash battles. I guarantee you that an Event Match Creation mode would get very boring, very fast, because all it'd really be is an updated Special Smash, but one that'd allow you to save your pre-set rules.


I'd always take Stage Builder, because I love seeing how creative the community can be. I have some close to like, 50-100 stages downloaded because they were just soo damn impressive.
 
Last edited:

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,209
I don't see what the point of this mode would be. We have stuff like Special Smash already in game to create 'weird' Smash battles. I guarantee you that an Event Match Creation mode would get very boring, very fast, because all it'd really be is an updated Special Smash, but one that'd allow you to save your pre-set rules.


I'd always take Stage Builder, because I love seeing how creative the community can be. I have some close to like, 50-100 stages downloaded because they were just soo damn impressive.
Special Smash is very limiting. Every character will have the same effect once the specific Special Smash match is selected. Events Match Creation would go more in depth, we can set one individual as a giant and the Vs. metal for example. Also again, we'd be able to write descriptions and set themes to play on different stages, Super Mario Bros theme playing on a Metroid stage, etc for example.
 
Top Bottom