The Smash series is on the verge of getting as stale as Pokémon to me

[Shroob]

Special Smash is very limiting. Every character will have the same effect once the specific Special Smash match is selected. Events Match Creation would go more in depth, we can set one individual as a giant and the Vs. metal for example. Also again, we'd be able to write descriptions and set themes to play on different stages, Super Mario Bros theme playing on a Metroid stage, etc for example.

I mean, again though, what's the point of it?

You're writing descriptions for.... who? Yourself? To share online?


I feel like sharing online would be.... less than great tbh, because the amount of policing they'd have to do just so people don't fill their descriptions with profanities and racism wouldn't be worth the effort.


If it's for you then........ okay....? I guess.....? What's the point? To give yourself a pat on the back for being clever? That'll wear off, really, really fast.


I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of it. It'd be way, WAY too exploitable online for someone to just throw up some 'event' where the description is laden with profanities, and if it's for you.... what's the point? To pat yourself on the back as a "Look, I made a reference!"

 

[UserKev]

I mean, again though, what's the point of it?

You're writing descriptions for.... who? Yourself? To share online?


I feel like sharing online would be.... less than great tbh, because the amount of policing they'd have to do just so people don't fill their descriptions with profanities and racism wouldn't be worth the effort.


If it's for you then........ okay....? I guess.....? What's the point? To give yourself a pat on the back for being clever? That'll wear off, really, really fast.


I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of it. It'd be way, WAY too exploitable online for someone to just throw up some 'event' where the description is laden with profanities, and if it's for you.... what's the point? To pat yourself on the back as a "Look, I made a reference!"

Face palm..

Doesn't the current Stage Builder have the same down side? Ngl, I seen some explicit thumbnails of them..

 

[Shroob]

Face palm..

Doesn't the current Stage Builder have the same down side? Ngl, I seen some explicit thumbnails of them..

Yes and no.


You're always going to have people that do that when custom uploads are involved, but I'd argue that a stage is easier to police than the description of something. It's as you said, a big thumbnail of something bad makes it easier to point out as problematic and report it.


Regardless, I still don't see the appeal. Spirits are already basically the "I got the reference" thing we currently have as is, and even though they're a far cry from prior games, they get the job done. I really, really do not see the appeal, because eventually, that novelty wears off after the same idea's been done over a hundred times.

At least with stages, they allow users to express some artistic freedom and make some honest to god impressive levels with the tools provided. The fact I can play Smash on a Vaporwave album cover, on a Gamecube, or in the parking lot of a McDonalds is hilarious. Even though I don't make my own stages, I appreciate immensely the creativity that others pour into it, because I love custom stages.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

I would enjoy it if Smash went back to being a museum of all things Nintendo. Melee’s trophy gallery had that feel, spirits as they currently are don’t do it for me. I want to learn about the old, the obscure, the region locked. I want odd character choices. I’m over the high profile 3rd party inclusions.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I would enjoy it if Smash went back to being a museum of all things Nintendo. Melee’s trophy gallery had that feel, spirits as they currently are don’t do it for me. I want to learn about the old, the obscure, the region locked. I want odd character choices. I’m over the high profile 3rd party inclusions.

Personally I'd love if Smash could add obscure third parties

 

[Quillion]

I don't really care whether a character, first or third party, is obscure or popular. I just want them to stop making them overcomplicated and more like the 64-Brawl characters where they pick and choose the best aspects of the characters that fit into Smash's limitations.

 

[Shroob]

I don't really care whether a character, first or third party, is obscure or popular. I just want them to stop making them overcomplicated and more like the 64-Brawl characters where they pick and choose the best aspects of the characters that fit into Smash's limitations.

I mean, I'd argue a lot of them do just that.

Most of the DLC characters are all absurdly simple.


Pythra is no more complex than Melee Zelda/Sheik, even less so since they effectively have the same moveset.

Byleth is a very simple character.

Same with Banjo.

Min Min has her arm swap, but otherwise, very simple.

Sephiroth is as bog standard a swordfighter as you can get.

Terry is no more difficult than Ryu, and in a lot of ways, easier.


You get characters like Steve and Hero, who are definitely out there by Smash standards, but a majority of the DLC is far from "overcomplicated". The hardest characters are Steve and Kazuya, and Kazuya, if you've played any other fighting game with inputs, is honestly not that bad.


And honestly, if they didn't fit within Smash's limitations in the first place, they wouldn't be in the game at all, the fact that they're here clearly shows that they do in fact fit within Smash's limitations. It's just that what Smash's "limitations" are have changed over the years.

 

[Oracle Link]

i never got the FoRmUlA bAd argument especialy the pre Botw and kirby games prove that formulas work great
(the only reason why people think the formula got boring is because Skyward sword and Star allies arent that well recieved)
i defintily get pokemon because everything is the same although saying pokemon should change the Battle system is dumb the thing that need to be changed is the Story and structure!
With smash i think changing the old chars a bit more should be enough also the next game doesnt need 2 pikachu evos and 8 fire emblem chars usw!

 

[Quillion]

i never got the FoRmUlA bAd argument especialy the pre Botw and kirby games prove that formulas work great
(the only reason why people think the formula got boring is because Skyward sword and Star allies arent that well recieved)
i defintily get pokemon because everything is the same although saying pokemon should change the Battle system is dumb the thing that need to be changed is the Story and structure!
With smash i think changing the old chars a bit more should be enough also the next game doesnt need 2 pikachu evos and 8 fire emblem chars usw!

It's not that I say "formula bad, needs to be a new genre altogether." I think there are ways to keep core aspects of Smash's formula yet change others so that the experience is significantly different. Personally, I think they can focus on giving all of the characters new tools to play with without completely overhauling everyone's movesets. And I don't mean by changing certain moves; I mean by giving them a new category of moves like Super Specials or Shield-Bs.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It's not that I say "formula bad, needs to be a new genre altogether." I think there are ways to keep core aspects of Smash's formula yet change others so that the experience is significantly different. Personally, I think they can focus on giving all of the characters new tools to play with without completely overhauling everyone's movesets. And I don't mean by changing certain moves; I mean by giving them a new category of moves like Super Specials or Shield-Bs.

Back-Bs and diagonal-airs would be pretty cool.

 

[Quillion]

Back-Bs and diagonal-airs would be pretty cool.

I'm not so sure about Back-Bs or diagonal aerials (I think Terry's Back-B makes him overcomplicated among other things IMO), but I've been mulling about the idea of whether back-tilts or back-Smashes would work.

 

[UserKev]

Honestly, I find Mario Kart Stages in Smash a bit annoying. Its a gimmick that Captain Falcon already perfectly represented, any more stages using the same gimmick is like asking for too much. The Mario Kart stages are redundant, they feel just "thrown" in more than anything.

 

[subterrestrial]

yea I agree tbh smash ultimate has no palpable aesthetic or theming like the other installments and they’re starting to prioritize characters over literally everything else lmao

I fear the next smash game without sakurai will be a corporate shell of its former self filled to the brim with microtransactions tbh they might go full on gatcha

 

[Shroob]

yea I agree tbh smash ultimate has no palpable aesthetic or theming like the other installments and they’re starting to prioritize characters over literally everything else lmao

I fear the next smash game without sakurai will be a corporate shell of its former self filled to the brim with microtransactions tbh they might go full on gatcha

The theme is "Everyone is here".


This is basically the Marvel vs Capcom 2 of Smash before the next game probably does a drastic roster cut. It's basically a final curtain bow on Sakurai's era of Smash, and all that he's been able to do with the series.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The theme is "Everyone is here".


This is basically the Marvel vs Capcom 2 of Smash before the next game probably does a drastic roster cut. It's basically a final curtain bow on Sakurai's era of Smash, and all that he's been able to do with the series.

By "theming" he means menus and promo material. Smash rosters themselves have never had themes and it should stay that way.

 

[Lenidem]

I'm a bit surprised when I hear people want "obscure characters" in Smash. If you want someone specific and he happens not to be famous, that's one thing. But if a character is largely unkown to the public, it might be for a good reason (and I emphasize the "might"). Take the Ice Climbers, for exemple: why did many people discover their existence with Melee? Because their original game was, well, kinda bad. So nobody talked about it, and them. I'd rather have characters from good games, famous or not.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm a bit surprised when I hear people want "obscure characters" in Smash. If you want someone specific and he happens not to be famous, that's one thing. But if a character is largely unkown to the public, it might be for a good reason (and I emphasize the "might"). Take the Ice Climbers, for exemple: why did many people discover their existence with Melee? Because their original game was, well, kinda bad. So nobody talked about it, and them. I'd rather have characters from good games, famous or not.

The Ice Climbers ended up being great fighters, so really the quality of a character's origin doesn't matter - the same applies for stages, Yoshi's Story is an all-time great Smash stage but garbage game. That being said, with modern Smash design being focused on game accuracy there is an argument against bad games being repped - case in point Min Min - but either way, I'd take a well designed but innacurate Bubsy or Lester the Unlikely over a poorly designed but game accurate Crash or Rayman any day.

 

[Lenidem]

The Ice Climbers ended up being great fighters, so really the quality of a character's origin doesn't matter - the same applies for stages, Yoshi's Story is an all-time great Smash stage but garbage game. That being said, with modern Smash design being focused on game accuracy there is an argument against bad games being repped - case in point Min Min - but either way, I'd take a well designed but innacurate Bubsy or Lester the Unlikely over a poorly designed but game accurate Crash or Rayman any day.

Anybody can make a "great fighter" despite the "moveset potential" expression. And "well designed but innacurate nobody vs poorly designed but game accurate celebrity" is not the question at all. You have to give equal treatment to both, or the comparison is rigged.

 

[Shroob]

The Ice Climbers ended up being great fighters, so really the quality of a character's origin doesn't matter - the same applies for stages, Yoshi's Story is an all-time great Smash stage but garbage game. That being said, with modern Smash design being focused on game accuracy there is an argument against bad games being repped - case in point Min Min - but either way, I'd take a well designed but innacurate Bubsy or Lester the Unlikely over a poorly designed but game accurate Crash or Rayman any day.

Just because you don't like a game, doesn't mean it's not worth a spot.

 

[subterrestrial]

imagine conflating quality with popularity

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

I want obscure Nintendo characters because they are Nintendo characters. Ice Climbers, Mr. Game&Watch, Pit - people now know who these characters are. They now know where they came from. All because they were given a new lease on life thanks to Smash.

 

[Quillion]

While I can't discredit the role the big-name third party characters play in the later installments, I have developed a preference for obscure Nintendo characters as well. The latter is what makes Smash not forget where it came from.

 

[Shroob]

While I can't discredit the role the big-name third party characters play in the later installments, I have developed a preference for obscure Nintendo characters as well. The latter is what makes Smash not forget where it came from.

I mean, Smash hasn't.


It's just that instead of adding a new 'obscure' character this game, it brought back every prior character. That's pretty much the ultimate "Remembering where it came from."

 

[Oracle Link]

I especially think the best way for smash 6 would be the following!

Cut out most of the 3rd partys, And most of the less loved chars like some fe chars Shiek and a young link and pokemon and you know!
Add a bunch of better inclusions for these Franchises!
Include less 1-1 Stages!
And adjust the movesets while keeping The basic attacks Functionally the same! And most specials too!

 

[Quillion]

I mean, Smash hasn't.


It's just that instead of adding a new 'obscure' character this game, it brought back every prior character. That's pretty much the ultimate "Remembering where it came from."

Bringing back every character is one thing to celebrate the history of the series itself, but moving forward, there needs to be additional obscure Nintendo characters. Didn't someone say that bringing every character back might not be possible again?

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Bringing back every character is one thing to celebrate the history of the series itself, but moving forward, there needs to be additional obscure Nintendo characters. Didn't someone say that bringing every character back might not be possible again?

Well you gotta think licensing will only become more complicated. And eventually the money spent/shared won’t be justifiable.

 

[Geno Boost]

My problems are that:

1. newcomers and the ways they're revealed are getting increasingly extravagant and therefore kicking out lesser known characters

i strongly agree with this the fact many companies including nintendo trying to get there specfic characters in especially during the DLC where its all choosen by nintendo instead of letting Sakurai choose on his own like the past smash games.
i hope more characters gets their chance to get revived in smash like Geno, Isaac and many other requested characters that have been dead for a long time by the parent company

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

i strongly agree with this the fact many companies including nintendo trying to get there specfic characters in instead of letting Sakurai choose on his own like the past smash games
i hope more characters gets their chance to get revived in smash like Geno, Isaac and many other requested characters that have been dead for a long time by the parent company

No, that's the opposite of what I'm arguing for - I want surprising characters neither the investors nor the fans want. I want the fandom to be introduced to new characters from old games they've never seen before

 

[Geno Boost]

No, that's the opposite of what I'm arguing for - I want surprising characters neither the investors nor the fans want. I want the fandom to be introduced to new characters from old games they've never seen before

i would like that as well someone like Sukapon and Hakkun would be amazing

 

[Lenidem]

No, that's the opposite of what I'm arguing for - I want surprising characters neither the investors nor the fans want. I want the fandom to be introduced to new characters from old games they've never seen before

For me, this role can and should go to the trophies, the old ones or the assist. Back in Melee, I was intrigued by this little Pit guy or by the Love/Hate Giant, as I am now by Sukapon or Starfy. It's enough to make me curious. But in the first place, I was driven to Smash because I could play as Mario, Link and Pikachu, and all the beloved celebrities. I'm not excited at all when they reveal someone I don't know (which technically never happens because at least I always have heard about the newcomers, but if I have no personal connection to them, then I just don't care).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

For me, this role can and should go to the trophies, the old ones or the assist. Back in Melee, I was intrigued by this little Pit guy or by the Love/Hate Giant, as I am now by Sukapon or Starfy. It's enough to make me curious. But in the first place, I was driven to Smash because I could play as Mario, Link and Pikachu, and all the beloved celebrities. I'm not excited at all when they reveal someone I don't know (which technically never happens because at least I always have heard about the newcomers, but if I have no personal connection to them, then I just don't care).

As a kid, I was sold on Smash because of the oddballs I had never heard of - Mario and Pikachu was cool and all, but I wanted to see more of this "Mr. Game & Watch" guy. The quirky retros were the real stars to me.

 

[Lenidem]

As a kid, I was sold on Smash because of the oddballs I had never heard of - Mario and Pikachu was cool and all, but I wanted to see more of this "Mr. Game & Watch" guy. The quirky retros were the real stars to me.

Well, Mr. Game & Watch is only "obscure" if you're really young. He was the face - or rather the silhouette of the Game & Watch system, the only successful portable at this time. So I don't think it's a good exemple.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Well, Mr. Game & Watch is only "obscure" if you're really young. He was the face - or rather the silhouette of the Game & Watch system, the only successful portable at this time. So I don't think it's a good exemple.

Mr. G&W literally did not exist before Smash. He's a composite of different, mostly nameless G&W characters. Even with G&W and its Gallery ports' popularity, Mr. G&W as a whole was still a new concept and if you like at G&W promo material the real faces of the brand were the established characters who had G&W spin-offs. Popeye, Snoopy, Link, Mickey, Mario, even Stanley to an extent.

 

[Lenidem]

Yes

Mr. G&W literally did not exist before Smash. He's a composite of different, mostly nameless G&W characters. Even with G&W and its Gallery ports' popularity, Mr. G&W as a whole was still a new concept and if you like at G&W promo material the real faces of the brand were the established characters who had G&W spin-offs. Popeye, Snoopy, Link, Mickey, Mario, even Stanley to an extent.

Yes, I know that. Doesn't change the fact that his "face" was highly recognizable.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Well, Mr. Game & Watch is only "obscure" if you're really young. He was the face - or rather the silhouette of the Game & Watch system, the only successful portable at this time. So I don't think it's a good exemple.

Well you just made his point. When melee came out I was too young to know what a Game & Watch was. And everyday kids are born decades removed from the start of Nintendo gaming. Original characters like Mach Rider or Mike Jones are now super obscure to the generation of gamers that Nintendo aims at. All the more reason to bring back the oldies and one offs so the younger crowd can meet and appreciate them.

 

[subterrestrial]

playing brawl as a kid actually got me to play ice climbers (the game) and it’s literally one of my fav games of all time

i think there’s sum merit to adding obscure characters into smash, because I definitely wouldn’t have ever played it otherwise

 

[Lenidem]

Well you just made his point. When melee came out I was too young to know what a Game & Watch was. And everyday kids are born decades removed from the start of Nintendo gaming. Original characters like Mach Rider or Mike Jones are now super obscure to the generation of gamers that Nintendo aims at. All the more reason to bring back the oldies and one offs so the younger crowd can meet and appreciate them.

So by "obscure" you mean characters you don't personally know. Then Banjo is obscure to people who grew up after the N64, but he's a super-star for the others. Not a very useful definition.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Ice Climber is a weird choice.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

So by "obscure" you mean characters you don't personally know. Then Banjo is obscure to people who grew up after the N64, but he's a super-star for the others. Not a very useful definition.

What? I literally listed Mach Rider and Mike Jones. Mach Rider had 1 game on NES in 1985 and a Vs arcade cabinet. Mike Jones had 2 NES games all before 91.

obscure is defined as “not discovered or known about” which is subjective. So yea, not knowing a character makes them obscure.

 

[Lenidem]

What? I literally listed Mach Rider and Mike Jones. Mach Rider had 1 game on NES in 1985 and a Vs arcade cabinet. Mike Jones had 2 NES games all before 91.

obscure is defined as “not discovered or known about” which is subjective. So yea, not knowing a character makes them obscure.

You included Mr. Game & Watch because you "didn't know who he was", and anyone interested in the NES games knows who Mike Jones and Mach Rider are. At this point, you should say that you want retro characters, that would be more accurate.