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"The Smash Brothers" Series: Calling All Collaborators

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
Location
Indiana
Am I the only one here who thinks a tournament between the 7 of them now would be meaningless and silly? It's not like they're practicing at the level they were when they were great.

Now, gathering the 7 of them for some open conversations and debate is far more interesting to me. But a tournament between a bunch of washed-up pros that aren't playing anymore? This really excites people? I'm pretty sure the Top 8 at Apex would be higher-quality matches.

And just to be clear, I'm certain that all of them would still be dominant today if this was the era that they played in. I'm not saying that today's players are better or worse, they're just up-to-date and playing and practicing.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
yeah a tournament would be pretty goofy, i assumed it would just be like a gala or party or something, at which there would probably be some smash played but it wouldnt be the focus

i just dont see a tourney being anything but disappointing and awkward when there are some really brutal losses

i'd still totally watch the matches though
 

samox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
205
Location
Boston, MA
UPDATE 21: Turning Trucks
Kickstarter Balance: $3,462.00
Paypal Balance: $313.67 (-$234.89 for Omni Light)
TOTAL FUNDING SO FAR: $3,775.67

Alright! I'm back from the farm and got some cool news: We got mentioned on the Boston Globe website thanks to our intrepid ally KDJ.

Although nothing huge, it's definitely the kind of thing that can add legitimacy and leverage for what we do next - namely, fully fund this damn thing! Thanks KDJ!

I would like to address some legitimate concerns brought up while I was gone:

@ Battlecow: In regards to making the deadline - it WILL happen. If we're sitting here on Halloween night and we still don't have enough money to make it, I will put the rest on credit cards to make sure the donations come through. This project means too much to me to let it fail. Your donations will not come to naught - they will specifically alleviate the crushing debt I'll have to incur in that eventuality - BUT, hopefully we can secure enough funding to prevent that from happening.

@ Anth0ny: It might come to that, but I'd rather not complicate matters by using the event as the driver for fundraising at this point. Most of you have guessed what it is already - a reunion of sorts. However, since we're still trying to nail down participation from everyone, it won't due as a banner to rally the troops under just yet. Alex Strife has hit the nail on the head - a few of these guys are proving difficult to get any responses from.

Like I said, one way or another this thing will fly - it may just take a lot of freaking duct tape.

Much love to Zoler for the donation! Keep 'em coming guys.

I don't want to have to turn any more trucks to make ends meet.

MORE TO COME!

PS: We're definitely coming to cover Concentrate 2. Consider coming if you can make it!
 

MuraRengan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,510
Location
New Orleans
*sigh* I wonder if KDJ gave them the OK to call Melee "glitch based." It's really annoying when that kind of ignorance is publicized.
 

voorhese

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
3,389
Location
Decatur, IN
i disagree, they had to implement it so it made sense if they aerial dodged towards the ground. not a glitch
 

MuraRengan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,510
Location
New Orleans
Wavedashing is totally a glitch. Just saying.
Hope you're not serious. The WD argument is years since ended. Whether it was just the plain logic of the physics engine reacting exactly as it is supposed to, or the fact that Sakurai himself mentioned in an interview that he knew that wavedash was possible while he was making the game. It's pretty much 100% not a glitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjjVqqbCLfw

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162416
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
Location
Indiana
Yeah, I don't think people realize what a unique opportunity this is. This happens so rarely that a community has a chance to crystallize its history in such a defined and clear, not to mention entertaining, way. Usually such things are lost to history. Also, getting projects like this going only help to spur interest and growth in the community, and can really separate you from other gaming communities out there in a very good way.

Shrug. Definitely a worthwhile opportunity if you can donate.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Stupid question: MLG wouldn't happen to have any Melee footage in a vault somewhere, would they?

I was watching an old MLG video and noticed the MLG logo at the beginning, so if it's anywhere, I'm guessing it's somewhere on some computer at MLG hq. Was all this footage just recorded off a stream and not backed up anywhere? Wasn't into the competitive scene in 06, so I'm probably way off.

I'm bringing this up because this thing is going to be in 1080p, so it would be nice to have some Smash footage in respectable quality, as opposed to youtube quality...
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
Hope you're not serious. The WD argument is years since ended. Whether it was just the plain logic of the physics engine reacting exactly as it is supposed to, or the fact that Sakurai himself mentioned in an interview that he knew that wavedash was possible while he was making the game. It's pretty much 100% not a glitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjjVqqbCLfw

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162416
I've seen that video, and that was what convinced me that it WAS a glitch, lol. Sakurai mentioned that he NOTICED IT during the development phase. As in, he didn't intentionally put it in. I don't know what your definition of glitch is, but "using the physics of the game to perform a technique that wasn't intended by the developers" covers the black hole glitch as well as wavedashing.

Not saying anything against wavedashing (obviously, lol). Just saying that "glitch" is a totally appropriate word for what it is.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
Why is "a preservation of momentum upon landing" a glitch? it's part of the foundation for the game's entire physics engine. Stupid post.
 

wWw Dazwa

#BADMAN
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,569
Location
maine
Stupid question: MLG wouldn't happen to have any Melee footage in a vault somewhere, would they?

I was watching an old MLG video and noticed the MLG logo at the beginning, so if it's anywhere, I'm guessing it's somewhere on some computer at MLG hq. Was all this footage just recorded off a stream and not backed up anywhere? Wasn't into the competitive scene in 06, so I'm probably way off.

I'm bringing this up because this thing is going to be in 1080p, so it would be nice to have some Smash footage in respectable quality, as opposed to youtube quality...
I'll find out next weekend, great idea!
 

MuraRengan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,510
Location
New Orleans
I've seen that video, and that was what convinced me that it WAS a glitch, lol. Sakurai mentioned that he NOTICED IT during the development phase. As in, he didn't intentionally put it in. I don't know what your definition of glitch is, but "using the physics of the game to perform a technique that wasn't intended by the developers" covers the black hole glitch as well as wavedashing.

Not saying anything against wavedashing (obviously, lol). Just saying that "glitch" is a totally appropriate word for what it is.
Well, I disagree, but this topic isn't about wavedash being a glitch so I'll hold all arguments.
 

samox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
205
Location
Boston, MA
UPDATE 22: Like A Boss
Kickstarter Balance: $3,462.00
Paypal Balance: $313.67 (-$234.89 for Omni Light)
TOTAL FUNDING SO FAR: $3,775.67 - UNCHANGED

Short update today. Busy crafting messages to the well-healed.

@ MuraRengan and Battlecow: Yeah, um, that was probably the author snatching some copy of mine from the Kickstarter page. I characterized wavedashing as a "glitch" for a couple reasons:

First, it is a recognizable term to someone who hasn't played ANY games before (vs. "exploit" - not as widely known outside gamer communities). EVERYONE and their grandma knows what a glitch is.

Secondly, though I agree with MuraRengan about the specific terminology and definition, Battlecow's interpretation flies with me for one reason: at a certain point during testing - it WAS a glitch. It wasn't an exploit until it was subsequently exploited for tactical purposes. Before then, it was simply an anomaly of the physics engine - an anomaly they rolled with, but an anomaly none the less.

Therefore, I can see room for it to fall under both definitions.

However, this is one of those things which will fall under the "Teach the Controversy" ethos - we'll give voice to those ardently supporting either position and get as much of a pulse from this as is necessary.

@ PeePee: Thanks my brother!!! A million times over! :)

@ KishPrime: Your words are almost like money! Thanks for the support my friend.

Just a reminder: You guys all rule.

MORE TO COME!

EDIT:

HOLY ****. You guys really did spread this around. I just googled Smash Documentary and we're posted all over the place! Very nice surprise and will only help our cause as I pitch this to our 1% friends. :)

Thanks again you all. You have no idea how much it means to have this kind of support going forward - it will literally propel this thing into existence.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
Why is "a preservation of momentum upon landing" a glitch? it's part of the foundation for the game's entire physics engine. Stupid post.
It logically follows from the way the game's made, but Sakurai and co. didn't mean for you to use it to slide around. It's a technique that was included by accident/happenstance, rather than by intent. In my mind, that makes it a glitch.

Not that that even matters in the slightest, of course. It's all just semantics.
 

MuraRengan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,510
Location
New Orleans
Not that that even matters in the slightest, of course. It's all just semantics.
But it does matter. Glitch has a negative connotation, and when you go around whimsically calling one of the most defining techniques in Melee a glitch, people get the wrong idea about the game. For some reason, believing that Wavedashing is a glitch has lead many other semi-informed people to believe that Melee's advanced techs are glitches. I've had to explain to many Brawl players how wavedashing, l-canceling, dashdance, teching, jc-canceling, and a bunch of other stuff are normal functions of the game. This leads many to believe that they shouldn't play Melee because, they don't want to get good by "abusing glitches and breaking the game." It matters a lot, because it creates an impression about Melee that lasts with people who don't bother to learn about the truth. Many people out there believe that Melee is a glitchy, poorly designed game, and don't want to have anything to do with it because of that. So yeah, the semantics do matter.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,550
glitches are generally things that are difficult for the end user to explain (going through walls, falling through the floor, inexplicable teleportation, etc.). wavedashing is pretty easy to explain. black hole glitch or invisible ceiling glitch, however, are not.
 

MasterShake

Smash Lord
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,911
Location
Sacramento, CA
I thought the Black Hole and Invisible Ceiling were both explainable.

Now the Ice Climber's freeze glitch. That's some ****ed up ****.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
It logically follows from the way the game's made, but Sakurai and co. didn't mean for you to use it to slide around. It's a technique that was included by accident/happenstance, rather than by intent. In my mind, that makes it a glitch.

Not that that even matters in the slightest, of course. It's all just semantics.
Actually, that's exactly what "Sakurai and co." meant for us to do. Slide around. That's what preserved momentum is. Sliding on the ground.

What Sakurai didn't mean for us to do, was press jump and dodge really fast. Wait, no, he did mean for us to be able to do that, because he didn't glue a big ****ing rubber band that clung to the fingers of everyone who bought Melee and made it a ***** to press the shield trigger within several frames of a jump.

You're saying that Sakurai didn't intend for us to develop a technique around his game's mechanics. Obviously Sakurai didn't stop and visualize every single application, combo, or scenario in his game and put a readme in the game's data to let us know, "OK guys, so crouch canceling being used at low% so fox can shine you was INTENDED, don't go calling it a glitch! LOL. like you'd ever do that!"
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
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Messages
26,550
I thought the Black Hole and Invisible Ceiling were both explainable.
black hole can be explained by Magus420 only if at all.
invisible ceiling glitch can't really, other than the obvious roy counter ones... which aren't really explained, it's just known when it happens.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
just posted this to a fb group for smash

everyone should do the same in one way or another!

advise them to donate
 

Kite91

Mada Mada Dane
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
1,071
Location
East Stroudsburg, Pa
Can I say that I love this idea and cant wait for this to be finished. I wish i had money to donate. Ive been waiting for a great Smash Doc. <333 CANT WAIT
 

Fierce Deku

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
54
Completely awesome. Especially as someone who was oblivious to the tourney scene back during the time covered in the pilot, I'm really exited about this. I also see this as a great way to show non-smashers the competitive Smash scene, legitimize it in their minds, and get them interested. I'll definitely be linking a lot of people to this down the road.

P.S. I was completely shocked to hear that people actually played tournaments with items, even back when the community was young. Would never have guessed that.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
But it does matter. Glitch has a negative connotation, and when you go around whimsically calling one of the most defining techniques in Melee a glitch, people get the wrong idea about the game. For some reason, believing that Wavedashing is a glitch has lead many other semi-informed people to believe that Melee's advanced techs are glitches. I've had to explain to many Brawl players how wavedashing, l-canceling, dashdance, teching, jc-canceling, and a bunch of other stuff are normal functions of the game. This leads many to believe that they shouldn't play Melee because, they don't want to get good by "abusing glitches and breaking the game." It matters a lot, because it creates an impression about Melee that lasts with people who don't bother to learn about the truth. Many people out there believe that Melee is a glitchy, poorly designed game, and don't want to have anything to do with it because of that. So yeah, the semantics do matter.
Deep breaths. I'm not going around saying "it's a glitch" to anyone, because it doesn't matter, but I do think that it's an acceptable term for what it is.

Actually, that's exactly what "Sakurai and co." meant for us to do. Slide around. That's what preserved momentum is. Sliding on the ground.

What Sakurai didn't mean for us to do, was press jump and dodge really fast. Wait, no, he did mean for us to be able to do that, because he didn't glue a big ****ing rubber band that clung to the fingers of everyone who bought Melee and made it a ***** to press the shield trigger within several frames of a jump.

You're saying that Sakurai didn't intend for us to develop a technique around his game's mechanics. Obviously Sakurai didn't stop and visualize every single application, combo, or scenario in his game and put a readme in the game's data to let us know, "OK guys, so crouch canceling being used at low% so fox can shine you was INTENDED, don't go calling it a glitch! LOL. like you'd ever do that!"
So... what's a glitch, then? I mean, obviously the black hole GLITCH isn't a glitch, because, hey, Sakurai didn't intentionally add a feature to make it impossible for you to do it. There's a difference between a combo that sakurai didn't visualize and a MECHANIC he didn't visualize. He obviously new that attacks would be linked in ingenious ways, techniques would be used innovatively, etc., but he did NOT know that you were going to be able to slide around on the ground like a ****ing tobogganer. Yes, it's explainable. But think about this- if someone discovered that you could, I don't know, jump and airdodge at the exact same time to become invincible for ten seconds, wouldn't it be a glitch? Even if it makes sense, given the mechanics of the game?

@strongbad- That's a distinction you could draw, but it's not included in the generally accepted definition of "glitch." For instance- people know why missingno. happens in Pokémon RB, but that doesn't mean it's not still "The Missingno. Glitch."
 

Mr.Jackpot

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
1,727
Location
WA
But it does matter. Glitch has a negative connotation, and when you go around whimsically calling one of the most defining techniques in Melee a glitch, people get the wrong idea about the game. For some reason, believing that Wavedashing is a glitch has lead many other semi-informed people to believe that Melee's advanced techs are glitches. I've had to explain to many Brawl players how wavedashing, l-canceling, dashdance, teching, jc-canceling, and a bunch of other stuff are normal functions of the game. This leads many to believe that they shouldn't play Melee because, they don't want to get good by "abusing glitches and breaking the game." It matters a lot, because it creates an impression about Melee that lasts with people who don't bother to learn about the truth. Many people out there believe that Melee is a glitchy, poorly designed game, and don't want to have anything to do with it because of that. So yeah, the semantics do matter.
I'm saving this post.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
Also literally no one has ever not played melee because they thought it was "glitchy" in a poorly-designed sense. If they say that's why, I guarantee you they have another less ridiculous reason.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
So... what's a glitch, then? I mean, obviously the black hole GLITCH isn't a glitch, because, hey, Sakurai didn't intentionally add a feature to make it impossible for you to do it. There's a difference between a combo that sakurai didn't visualize and a MECHANIC he didn't visualize. He obviously new that attacks would be linked in ingenious ways, techniques would be used innovatively, etc., but he did NOT know that you were going to be able to slide around on the ground like a ****ing tobogganer. Yes, it's explainable. But think about this- if someone discovered that you could, I don't know, jump and airdodge at the exact same time to become invincible for ten seconds, wouldn't it be a glitch? Even if it makes sense, given the mechanics of the game?
Air dodging was a mechanic that Sakurai didn't visualize? Or did you mean jumping was a mechanic Sakurai didn't visualize? Or did you mean keeping momentum when you landed, which is the entire reason they bothered to code LANDINGFALLSPECIAL in the first place, was something he didn't visualize?

Realize that using a horizontal up-b near the ground and sliding forward when you land is obviously not an abuse of the game's mechanics, it was what Sakurai thought made sense.

Now, realize that airdodging serves the exact same function as a traditional up-b. It manually moves you forward, in the air. Realize that unlike an up-b, however, its angle could be more easily chosen.

To quote you, "he obviously knew that attacks would be linked in ingenious ways, techniques would be innovated". The only word I'm going to take out, is attacks. I'll replace it with "commands". Still the same thing.

"he obviously knew that commands would be linked in ingenious ways, techniques would be innovated". All wavedashing is, is pressing Y and L really fast. Manipulate where you wavedash by moving the analog around below the x-axis.

He pictured momentum preservation as a little, subtle thing. An extra extra tacked on to provide some distance here and there. Dashing was for normal movement. We started to actually, you know, use the momentum to move. Obviously he didn't predict us "tobogganing around", but he didn't predict us hopping around like frogs next to a shield shine-drilling.

If the mechanics of the game were such that being invincible for a certain amount of time was an integral part of the fighting system, and all characters had a move that gave you some level of invincibility, then that would make sense in the "physics" of the game.

Just how the mechanics of our game are such that moving our characters a certain distance is already an integral part of the fighting system, something that, before wavedashing, every character already had.

So if some characters had moves that gave them invincibility for 6s, and their airdodge/jump gave them invincibility for 10s, that's the same as Luigi's dash making him move at regular velocity, and his wavedash making him move at high velocity.
 
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