The SkyWorld Legality Discussion -->

[AAP]

wouldn't flying under the platform essentially be stalling the match and therefore be illegal?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Pretty sure stalling isn't the problem due to tourney regs and most flying characters can fly around any stage.

 

[ShengNu]

No way is this stage legal! Playing in it is almost as bad as playing in the cave portion of Temple. This stage gets the ban hammer fo sho!

i agree lol xD

 

[wasabicheese]

skyworld isnt THAT bad

 

[RolandBeoulve]

It isn't as bad as temple but has enough negative aspects to be banned from tournament play.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if its too much liek a cave to you, that do what i do, and destroy the top platform,

easy CP

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres no way this stage is worse than the other CP's like orpheon and siege, they both kill you randomly, skyworld does not. it may kill you very low, but youll always see it coming

 

[RolandBeoulve]

The cave of life isn't the only problem please read the rest of the thread. Promoting a single winning strategy, uphill battle for almost all of the cast. Read the thread and argue all the points not just the ones that work for you. My Lucario loves places to tech, horizontal is the only K.O. I've had any problems with.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

theres no way this stage is worse than the other CP's like orpheon and siege, they both kill you randomly, skyworld does not. it may kill you very low, but youll always see it coming

wait how is orpheon or siege support random kills. There are warnings for both stages (the sound beckon for orpheon and the stage intremission for siege). I have never had a cheap death on siege because you can plan ahead.

With skyworld randomness is more a factor, you aren't given a warning for when a platform dissapears r reappears (counting the lame bottom scrolling one). And even considering the camping 'solution,' doesn't the character beneath the platforms usually have the advantage over the ones on top.....expecially ROB. So now not only does the robot have a massive advantage with recovery on the stage, but now he can be a camping machine and practically destroy anyone hoping to escape the cave of life.

 

[TehBo49]

wouldn't flying under the platform essentially be stalling the match and therefore be illegal?

Exactly. That's why Temple was banned in Melee.

 

[fkacyan]

theres no way this stage is worse than the other CP's like orpheon and siege, they both kill you randomly, skyworld does not. it may kill you very low, but youll always see it coming

Orpheon and Siege both have no hazards, as well as warnings for when they transform. They're not even comparable. At all.

As I've said before, you should not need a strategy to negate the default aspects of a stage. If you say that the stage is fine if the top two platforms aren't there, you're saying it's not fine when they are there. Which is the majority of the time.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I thought this discussion was dead. Apparently not.

 

[Wander]

I call banned. Not only do stagespikes off the top two platforms happen often and usually without warning, it's not uncommon to miss a recovery because your opponent broke the platform you were trying to grab. Although not as common, it's also possible to get stuck under the moving platform and die that way. The cave of life is also an obvious problem. All the right ingredients for a ban. At the very least a counterpick, but I doubt anyone is calling for Skyworld to be neutral. Give it the hammer.

 

[Ulevo]

Why are people using other stages in comparison to Skyworld as to why it should be banned? Why are people talking about how Meta Knight has an advantage on every neutral? Why are people talking about needing a specific character having a large advantage on Skyworld as a means to justify its ban?

These are totally irrelevant to the topic.

Skyworld to my knowledge does not favor any character exceptionally over the other, aside from characters with insane recovery abilities, such as Pit or ROB. That doesn't give it reason for a ban. However, there are several contributing factors.

- The stage has the same caged problem as Hyrule Temple. I don't care if you can destroy the stage platforms-- they reappear literally a few seconds later, and a player can easily shield/dodge until they come back to continue the cycle.

- This stage promotes camping. The excuse "just don't go down there" isn't the point. If a player has a damage or stock lead, they are in automatic advantage by camping down there waiting for the timer to run out until the opponent decides to come down, and if they do decide to come down, the player already down there has the upper hand.

- Many characters are at a disadvantage when returning to the stage. Characters that damage when returning are in danger of destroying the same platform they are trying to grab. Characters using tether recovery have nothing to grab onto if the platform is destroyed before or during their return, putting them at large disadvantage. Also, any character returning can be killed by the opponent destroying the stage before they return.

- Characters can be spiked through the clouds while standing on them, making for ludicrously low % kills.

- Characters can be stage spiked by any upward sending attack at very low % if the ceiling platform is still intact while the bottom floor is not, which is a very common scenario since most fights occur in the middle of the stage where attacks will be striking the floor platform.

- The platforms can reform while a character is attempting to return through the clouds, resulting in a stock loss. This is very plausible considering the rate at which the platforms reform.


You don't need reasons other than this.

 

[Ekaru]

if its too much liek a cave to you, that do what i do, and destroy the top platform,

easy CP

Wow, you're totally right, dude. I mean, the opponent is SERIOUSLY going to sit there and watch as you destroy the top platform, then just wait and get hit as you come down!

Now seriously, the stage is designed in such a way so the following can occur:

- Sonic can run around forever.
- Characters with lofty recoveries like MK, Pit, ROB, can run away under the stage. Oh, and Luigi? He can do something very similar.
- If you try to destroy the top platform, you'll probably take a hit. Or two. Or five. Thing is, Pit can just give you an arrow and ROB can just blast you. Lucario can just go 'nick' with an aura sphere on your brigade, ect.
- Last but not least, saying 'just destroy the top platform' is like saying 'go put yourself as a vulnerable target against any good player, it seriously won't hurt you in the long run!' It just doesn't work.

People, stop saying to just destroy the top platform. It doesn't really work against good people who camp down there, because you'll take too much percentage and be at too much of a disadvantage to be worth it, and THEN they can abuse the loop and just avoid you til the cave of life is back.

People, it's not JUST the cave of life; it's the stacked-loop structure. Destroy the top platform? Congrats. Now your opponent can just abuse the loops and avoid you forever.

Easy BAN.

EDIT: OR just what the guy above me said. >.>

 

[sn1per13]

Am I the only person who gets owned when someone breaks the stage and I can't tether recovery?

 

[RolandBeoulve]

Am I the only person who gets owned when someone breaks the stage and I can't tether recovery?

No a good deal of the cast is gimped in a few unique ways by this level.

 

[-Frozen-]

Why are people using other stages in comparison to Skyworld as to why it should be banned? Why are people talking about how Meta Knight has an advantage on every neutral? Why are people talking about needing a specific character having a large advantage on Skyworld as a means to justify its ban?

These are totally irrelevant to the topic.

Skyworld to my knowledge does not favor any character exceptionally over the other, aside from characters with insane recovery abilities, such as Pit or ROB. That doesn't give it reason for a ban. However, there are several contributing factors.

- The stage has the same caged problem as Hyrule Temple. I don't care if you can destroy the stage platforms-- they reappear literally a few seconds later, and a player can easily shield/dodge until they come back to continue the cycle.

- This stage promotes camping. The excuse "just don't go down there" isn't the point. If a player has a damage or stock lead, they are in automatic advantage by camping down there waiting for the timer to run out until the opponent decides to come down, and if they do decide to come down, the player already down there has the upper hand.

- Many characters are at a disadvantage when returning to the stage. Characters that damage when returning are in danger of destroying the same platform they are trying to grab. Characters using tether recovery have nothing to grab onto if the platform is destroyed before or during their return, putting them at large disadvantage. Also, any character returning can be killed by the opponent destroying the stage before they return.

- Characters can be spiked through the clouds while standing on them, making for ludicrously low % kills.

- Characters can be stage spiked by any upward sending attack at very low % if the ceiling platform is still intact while the bottom floor is not, which is a very common scenario since most fights occur in the middle of the stage where attacks will be striking the floor platform.

- The platforms can reform while a character is attempting to return through the clouds, resulting in a stock loss. This is very plausible considering the rate at which the platforms reform.


You don't need reasons other than this.

Thank you.

Well written, and I think your post sums up and lists perfectly all the reasons Skyworld should not be legal, and anyone who still disagrees, is just, well...

Anyways, I dont really see any further need to debate it, i think all the answers as to why it should most likely be banned were pretty clear near the start of this thread.

As for me, even as a Pit main, I hate the stage, and i wouldnt be sad to see it end up banned in the least.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I want Mic's Opinion on this.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I want Mic's Opinion on this.

and what good is that going to do? I think Ulevo's post summed it all up.

 

[fkacyan]

and what good is that going to do? I think Ulevo's post summed it all up.

I'll translate for you:

"People have made intelligent points I cannot rebut. I want a higher authority I believe will support me to prove them wrong because I can't."

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

the ht fight club had walls and celiengs... the skyworld has only celings...
counter-pick

 

[Amarkov]

the ht fight club had walls and celiengs... the skyworld has only celings...
counter-pick

It'd be one thing if it JUST had that room of life. It's really not that bad. But the room of life and the loop and spiking through the floor and stage spiking at low damage...

At some point, you just have to say "this is stupid" and ban the stage.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I'll translate for you:

"People have made intelligent points I cannot rebut. I want a higher authority I believe will support me to prove them wrong because I can't."

lol, so true. Okay well in that case, case closed.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

You are incorrect sir..


But Mic was in charge of the stage selection for Melee so he's kindof an expert when it comes to things like this seeing as MLG gave him that duty...


So no. I just want the debate to be over, b/c smashers like YOU think Skyworld is too gay to have as a counterpick, and smashers like myself and King feel that it's gay, but NOT gay enough to warrant a total ban.

 

[Ulevo]

You are incorrect sir..


But Mic was in charge of the stage selection for Melee so he's kindof an expert when it comes to things like this seeing as MLG gave him that duty...


So no. I just want the debate to be over, b/c smashers like YOU think Skyworld is too gay to have as a counterpick, and smashers like myself and King feel that it's gay, but NOT gay enough to warrant a total ban.

I can understand your request. Having expert advise is never a bad idea, and I'm sure Mic would be very suitable to give said advice on the matter considering his previous responsibilities. But throughout your thread in the posts I've read, you really haven't made any statements to strengthen the argument that Skyworld shouldn't be banned, other than by comparing it to other stages or by saying that it shouldn't be because of the lack of overwhelming character advantage on it. You never really addressed the problems at hand specifically, and they are clearly noticeable. We shouldn't ban stages prematurely, as that saps out competitive options and potential, but saying that a stage is innocent (such as ones that scream ban like Warioware and NPC) until proven guilty isn't always the right way to go.

Edit: By the way, your signature rocks. "So Good."

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

My main point is that SkyWorld's inherent gayness comes from the ability to destroy its platforms.. which basically means the stage is either gay, or it isn't gay... but at either time it can either grant you a "cave of life" or limit certain recoveries...

Honestly i don't even consider the tether recovery crap viable due to the fact that Norfair generally isn't banned.. and that is a HUGE advantage for ANY toon w/ a tether recovery of ANY kind.

And the spiking is also a silly argument b/c anyone can pay enough attention to tech.. probably the reason Luigi's mansion isn't banned yet/nor will be. You can tech at ANY time. Player skill.. NOT level gayness... and if someone is THAT worried about the house effect then destroy the levels above if you don't want to be trapped.

As for the "Cave of Life" effect, just destroy the platforms above the center and you shouldn't have too much of a problem...

I'm a large fan of this level [and luigi's mansion] just b/c there is ALOT of strategy involved in playing there correctly as oppossed to just running in and spamming Dsmash. Personally i think Frigate is ALOT gayer than this stage, b/c at most tourney's you can't really hear the TV you're playing on, so most stage flips are seemingly random whereas at least in SkyWorld you know EXACTLY what is going on.

Yes it's gay.

No it's not THAT gay.

Neutral.. F*CK NO.

Counter-Pick.. Yeah, i think i'm down for that.


Did that answer any of your questions?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you also discreditted some things somewhat premature....

when you destroy the plat forms you say it only takes seconds for them to come back when in reality going into the match having the mindset of, "im going to cave **** them until the cave is gone, than run and hide until the cave respawns" is not really viable. the platforms take a good amount of time to respawn (20-30 secs?) and camping out the duration of those periods just isnt an executable strategy.

if someone (like me) is dedicated enuff to throw down a few hits on the platforms when the opponent is away from them, its easily possible to have the majority of the match take place with out a fully formed cave.

also the point about banning a stage prematurely and limiting the competitiveness actually does apply here. having the constant thread of getting bounced around and hit through clouds, is going to make ppl learn their matchups, which moves have what trajectories, and they will get better at teching very quickly if they know whats good for them.

also, the platforms spawning and screwing ppls recovery, is just as random and uncommon as getting teleported under the third part of castle siege, or getting stuck under the stage when frigate orpheon flips. both playable stages as far as i know.

all in all....
is it a totally equal, completely fair stage...no
does it have any thing game breaking, that would screw over a good touney player.... also no
solution? CP stage

 

[fkacyan]

Why do people keep trying to compare the platforms at Skyworld to other stages?

The Castle Siege glitch is an extremely rare occurence, as is getting trapped under Orpheon. Getting gimped by Skyworld's platforms is both intended and far more common.

Platforms spawning isn't the issue. It's the fact that they're attackable, which means that tethers might hit them instead of sweetspotting, linear upBs might destroy them instead of grabbing on, etc. That has nothing to do with player skill and rather a badly designed surface. Combine this with other factors of the level and it adds up to a ban.

 

[TehBo49]

you also discreditted some things somewhat premature....

when you destroy the plat forms you say it only takes seconds for them to come back when in reality going into the match having the mindset of, "im going to cave **** them until the cave is gone, than run and hide until the cave respawns" is not really viable. the platforms take a good amount of time to respawn (20-30 secs?) and camping out the duration of those periods just isnt an executable strategy.

The platforms actually reappear after about only 10 seconds. A good player can avoid getting hit in that amount of time. Some characters can just fly under the stage until it comes back.

if someone (like me) is dedicated enuff to throw down a few hits on the platforms when the opponent is away from them, its easily possible to have the majority of the match take place with out a fully formed cave.

But the thing is, a smart opponent won't just sit there & watch as you destroy the platform. They'll take advantage of the situation & attack you. It just isn't worth breaking the platform if you would take all that damage.

also the point about banning a stage prematurely and limiting the competitiveness actually does apply here. having the constant thread of getting bounced around and hit through clouds, is going to make ppl learn their matchups, which moves have what trajectories, and they will get better at teching very quickly if they know whats good for them.

Certain stages don't need to be tried out to determine a ban. If that's the case, let's try Hyrule & Warioware too. This stage has plenty of obvious problems to just call a ban now. Practicing teching isn't a good excuse.

also, the platforms spawning and screwing ppls recovery, is just as random and uncommon as getting teleported under the third part of castle siege, or getting stuck under the stage when frigate orpheon flips. both playable stages as far as i know.

Those aren't even comparable. Both happen infrequently & are easily avoidable. Frigate Orpheon flips like once every 50 seconds with a good 3 seconds warning. Castle Siege switches at about the same interval, but goes through 2 other transformations with even more warning time. Complaining about them is like complaining about getting stuck under Smashville or Battlefield while trying to recover.

On Skyworld however, it's very common to get stuck under the platforms because they reform so quickly & because most fighting occurs in the middle, the bottom platform will be detroyed all the time. Most of the time, you lose a stock that way or by being stage spiked.

all in all....
is it a totally equal, completely fair stage...no
does it have any thing game breaking, that would screw over a good touney player.... also no
solution? CP stage

No.
Yes.
Solution: Ban.

 

[Pure-???]

Skyworld sucks and I don't see any reaosn why anyone cares. I think it should be banned because, let's be honest, is there anyone who actually LIKES the stage to begin with? And furthermore, it wrecks recoveries that are not ROB and Pit.

 

[Ori_bro]

its ok i like it

 

[gantrain05]

oh not to mention someone with a horrible horizontal recovery, (ganondorf) gets so easily gimped when he gets knocked off the stage and the opponent just breaks the ground and oh look no more grabbing that platform your dead, its very irritating and i hate that level.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

And yet.. i think we've all forgotten that tether characters have bad recoveries to begin with.. and so go characters like Ganon, and Falco.. in fact, i have seen these characters GIMPED MANY TIMES on other stages aswell.. so you're saying they're MORE gimped on SkyWorld? this seems silly to me.. b/c any character can Fair Olimar, and autograb the ledge, and then gay him on FD.. it anything... SkyWorld just gives these characters a chance to return the favor...

the ganon player above me.. i'd think you would LOVE this stage... AutoCancelled Dair-->Spike on the clouds?

seriously i just think far too many smashers in this thread have been stage spiked on SkyWorld and they think its worthy of a ban b/c of that..

again i'm going to say that this stage is pretty gay, but requires ALOT of strategy, and alot of skill to play on correctly...

Btw.. Would MuteCity have been banned in melee if tether characters had existed back then?

 

[gantrain05]

oh no don't get me wrong i love the Dair spikes thru the clouds, but more often than not its me on the gimped end than the opponent, just not a good ganon level for me.

 

[KeyKid19]

Let me ask you.. what characters have an advantage on this stage > other characters...

Anyone who can fly (or has boost fuel) has an advantage. They have a much lower chance of getting "stage gayed".

Also, I don't think your argument holds much weight. What characters have an advantage over others at WarioWare? How about New Pork City? How about Hanenbow? How about Port Town? All of these are banned not because they favor one character or small group of characters over another, but because they take the focus off of fighting. The same is true about SkyWorld.

This is also why I feel Rainbow Cruise should banned but that's for another thread.

 

[Ulevo]

And yet.. i think we've all forgotten that tether characters have bad recoveries to begin with.. and so go characters like Ganon, and Falco.. in fact, i have seen these characters GIMPED MANY TIMES on other stages aswell.. so you're saying they're MORE gimped on SkyWorld? this seems silly to me.. b/c any character can Fair Olimar, and autograb the ledge, and then gay him on FD.. it anything... SkyWorld just gives these characters a chance to return the favor...

the ganon player above me.. i'd think you would LOVE this stage... AutoCancelled Dair-->Spike on the clouds?

seriously i just think far too many smashers in this thread have been stage spiked on SkyWorld and they think its worthy of a ban b/c of that..

again i'm going to say that this stage is pretty gay, but requires ALOT of strategy, and alot of skill to play on correctly...

Btw.. Would MuteCity have been banned in melee if tether characters had existed back then?

The Tether recoveries are not the only issue, they are merely another issue on top of a large list. Yes, any character, tether or not, can be gimped on any level. It is however extremely easy to do so on Skyworld. Normally when edgehogging, the hogger puts themselves at risk by doing so for the possibility of being hit by the returning player. On Skyworld, all it takes is for the player to hit the platform a few times at the most, and the player dies due to a ledge absence, and the player on the stage was put at no risk whatsoever. That is too easy, and is a big disadvantage to any character not named Pit or ROB.


Also, for anyone who is curious, the platforms reform 10 seconds after they've been destroyed.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Hanenbow isn't banned.. and rainbow cruise doesn't take the focus off fighting.. ever recall playing on PokeFloats...

 

[slikvik]

The whole "it should be banned because it gimps tether/vertical recovery" argument isn't a legitimate argument by itself for banning a stage on the sole basis that it has disadvantages to certain kinds of characters' recoveries. Much for the same reason you can tell a player "don't play a character that can be CG'ed by DDD on walkoff stages/walls", don't pick tether characters on stages with bad recovery options for said characters. If a player wants to stick with one single character, they'd best be prepared and willing to accept the consequences of their character's pitfalls.

The "cave of death" and "loop" of skyworld is also mostly negatable due to their small size, and ability to have the problematic platforms destroyed. The cave on its own also it's very long nor is it tall, so many characters don't have issues removing their opponent from the cave. Add that the platforms are skinny enough to attack through, and that helps balance spacing issues caused by players separating themselves from each other between the platforms.

In my opinion, it could be close to bannable, if only there were anything else substantially wrong with it...but to me, it's just an awkward counterpick stage with advantages/disadvantages to certain characters, much like stages such as Melee's Brinstar and Mute City were (remember how much fun it was to recover as Falcon, Ness, Sheik, etc on Mute City?). Aside from the destructible ledges & platforms, it has a relatively neutral-style layout, with bottom/upper platforms, sided by two mid-platforms, with decent-ranged blast zones to the sides/ceiling/floor of the stage. Not too big, not to small.

And as much as I would personally love to see the stage gone, we owe each stage due process and evaluation; bias towards certain types of characters shouldn't play a big part in it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and as far as the "burden of proof" is concerned, the burden falls on the community and their members to first prove with due evaluation that the stage is Ban-WORTHY, not that the stage is worthy of becoming Un-Banned.

King Out

I think king provided enough reasons as to why this stage should be a counterpick

 

[TehBo49]

The Tether recoveries are not the only issue, they are merely another issue on top of a large list. Yes, any character, tether or not, can be gimped on any level. It is however extremely easy to do so on Skyworld. Normally when edgehogging, the hogger puts themselves at risk by doing so for the possibility of being hit by the returning player. On Skyworld, all it takes is for the player to hit the platform a few times at the most, and the player dies due to a ledge absence, and the player on the stage was put at no risk whatsoever. That is too easy, and is a big disadvantage to any character not named Pit or ROB.


Also, for anyone who is curious, the platforms reform 10 seconds after they've been destroyed.

Don't forget that if tether recoverers get stage spiked on this stage, there's almost no chance that they'll make it back as there recoveries are too short.