The Shieldstun Directory - The one-stop depository (sorta)

[Kinzer]

Yay last minute Holiday projects!

(Please do consider these numbers will have to be redone. If you don't see this message anymore, then I've updated it.)

Jab 1: -6

Jab 2: -12

Jab 3: -18

Forward smash (uncharged): -13

Forward smash (charged): -11

Forward tilt (torso): -17

Forward tilt (feet): -18

Down smash (heavy, uncharged): -26

Down smash (heavy, charged): -24

Down smash (medium, uncharged): -20

Down smash (medium, charged): -21

Due to the nature of Sonic's DSmash, I decided not to attempt to test or gather the numbers for the light hit. The opponent can really only be expected to either powershield it, or take the hit. The medium hit extends through the first pass-through and the weak hit only becomes active on the recoil when the opponent has either already taken the first two hits, or or is coming in from outside the attack's maximum range.

Down tilt: -10

Up smash (body, uncharged): -27

Up smash (platform, uncharged: -24

Up smash (body, charged): -27

Up smash (platform, charged): -24

In truth, the "body" is referring to the 7th hit of USmash. USmash has 8 hits, but the 8th hit always misses if done next to the opponent. The "platform" hitbox calculates the shieldstun disadvantage of the 8th and final hit of the USmash.

Up tilt: -22

Neutral air (heavy, FAF): -31

Neutral air (heavy, auto-cancel): 0

Neutral air (medium, FAF):

Back air (strong hit, FAF): -11

Back air (strong hit, auto-cancel): +4

Back air (weak hit, FAF): -9

Back air (weak hit, auto cancel): -8

Forward air (FAF): -12

Forward air (auto-cancel): -22

Up air 1 (auto-cancel): -10

Up air 2 (FAF): -16

Up air 2 (auto-cancel): -12

Down air (Auto-cancel): -20

Ask me to find the aerial First actable frames for Dair and I'll eat your babies! :X

Homing Attack (FAF): -37

Homing Attack (auto-cancel): -57

Note, the auto-cancel frames aren't exact. This was tested using the platforms on Battlefield. Another stage with platforms elevated at a different level may give Sonic less or more recovery lag, but regardless, this move still sucks.

Spring coil (FAF): +1

And that's just with the projectile hitting as soon as Sonic jumps off his Spring Coil. Sonic has more of a frame advantage when the Spring Coil hits at a later time. This is however only for the shielding opponent; Sonic himself can't really take advantage of it. Oh well.

Spin Dash hop (FAF): +9

Spin dash roll (Spin Dash variation, uncharged, FAF): +15

Spin Dash roll (Spin Dash variation, charged, FAF): +18

Spin Dash roll (Spin Charge variation, uncharged, FAF): +17

Spin Dash jump (FAF): +9

Vertical Spin Dash jump: +8

Aerial Spin Charge (no influence, FAF): +9

Aerial Spin Charge (Frontal influence, FAF): +10

All the rolls assume you haven't done a U-Turn, and that you're on a flat plane.

Ledge get-up <100%: -22

Ledge get-up attack >100% -10

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Uhm, happy holidays?

 

[Kinzer]

Actually though, I'm not quite done, I need to reserve more posts. Believe me, I got big plans for this project that I will not get done in a weeks amount of time.

Alright, so now that I have this thread out and open for public view, I want to make some things clear.

Although this is mostly a Smash Lab term, I believe it is imperative that everybody know what FAF is if they don't already. FAF is short for "First actionable frame." Think of it as another way to say "Interruptable As Soon As" or IASA. Personally I prefer the former just because it feels like a more accurate description of what's going on here, which is how soon you, or your opponent can act when taking action or taking an action upon themselves. Not every action in this game can be interrupted before the animation is done; just something cosmetic really.

Moving on to more important things. I have the bulk of Sonic's attack done. You can see from here that Sonic is generally bad on shields, but then again not many other characters in this game are. You will notice however that Sonic has some very neat follow-ups from his Spin ball game. Coincidence? I think not. Really, all this mumbo-jumbo about Sonic getting punished for hitting a shielded opponent is just failure on the parts of the players to make themselves safe. You have a jump button and a Spring Jump as a third and last resort, use them if you have to!

I know I am missing some things, like the rest of Neutral Air, and Sonic's trip attacks and hard fall attacks, but I'll get that done when I can find an easier way to calculate when Neutral has its hitboxes; preferably with PSA. It's very difficult to tell when a certain hitbox of Nair starts and ends on shield since the attack looks so similar (Whew, I thought I'd never say that before) and the attack lasts for quite some time. Take my word for it though that it really isn't safe under many circumstances.

I'll be keeping a sort of changelog, and I'll also be keeping information about other characters here for Sonics. If you want to know how much time Sonic has to punish Meta Knight's uncharged Down smash, you'll find it here. You will not find how much time Olimar for example has to do the same, because frankly that doesn't belong in this sub-forum. I'm only doing this though because most every other character board does not have this type of frame-data available at hand. Hurrah for Sonic being the first at something?!

 

[Kinzer]

I'm actually taking requests from people. If any of you want something from the perspective of Sonic, like how to punish a banana throw, let me know and I'll get it for you.

One at a time though please.

 

[Trillion]

Nice thread Kinzer. I was thinking something similar the other day. I recently noticed that if I did bair and hit shield, then I could usually jab faster than the opponent could do anything. I was hoping to find some info about shield stun and suddenly here you are delivering just what I needed!

+1 Vote for this to be indexed.

 

[Tenki]

does this change with stale moves?

 

[Kinzer]

It probably gets less of an advantage. I didn't check that. There's apparently a shiledstun formula with the damage as the variable, so I'd expect that with less damage you get less of an advantage or more of a disadvantage.

 

[Tenki]

at the very minimum, can you check something like a 4-5 stale b-air?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Just like any anime, this thread has a lot of filler. (in reference to the filler in the OP)

 

[Kinzer]

at the very minimum, can you check something like a 4-5 stale b-air?

If I'm not tired after the tourney, you got it Tenki.

Just like any anime, this thread has a lot of filler. (in reference to the filler in the OP)

Hmm?

Oh that.

Yeah, turns out I'm too lazy to motivate myself to do the entire cast; so I'm just taking anybody's request when they come along.

Also, I just realized this while I was sleeping last night.

I never put in dash attack.

In this thread anyway.

I'll update that later.

 

[infomon]

Sorry i'm a n00b, can you please explain to me what all the numbers mean?

For example, jab1: -6. So my guess is that this means:
- sonic uses the first hit of jab
- its hitbox first appears on frame x
- on that first-possible-frame, it hits the opponent's regular shield (not powershield)
- the opponent immediately (ie. on the very next frame) starts dropping their shield
- now sonic's in I-hit-a-shield lag, and the opponent's in shield-drop-lag
- after the opponent gets out of lag, Sonic still can't do anything for another 6 frames
(ie. negative means advantage to the blocker)

Is this correct?

- the jab's hitbox stays out for multiple frames... so what happens if it isn't shielded until the last possible frame? (this might not be possible to pull off with "jab", but w/e) Is the (dis)advantage the same?
- what happens in the case of a powershield?
- how does shield-drop-lag work? is it common for the blocker to be too slow at dropping their shield to make up for the advantage, or does hitlag apply enough to both characters to make this (typically) negligible?

thanx!

 

[Kinzer]

No Infzy, it's on that same frame that Jab 1 [or any attack for that matter] connects that the shieldstun and hitlag (frame 3 to be precise) start to be applied.

All I did was just have the opponent let go of the shield button, then once I saw the shield drop I held the button again (it takes 7 frames to drop a shield), and during this time I'd have Sonic hold the shield button too since that'd be when he can initiate a new action. The rest should be self-explanatory but yes, the opponent gets a +6 frame advantage on Sonic if he shields his first jab and doesn't go into Jab 2.

Anyway, I'm glad you asked. You see, for some moves (mainly aerials), I would have to test for first frame and last possible frame. Back air for example stays out for 6 frames (you wouldn't believed how surprised I was to find this out). The first and second frame have the strong hitbox. For my data that you see at this very moment, I used the first frame. For the weak hit back air, I hit on the last possible frame and got those numbers. That means if you hit with the weak hit of back air any sooner, your opponent has more time to punish. I did not however get some things, biggest example would be light hit DSmash, because things like that are either very difficult to hit with, or just plain impossible. Jab in this case only has so much range and you have to give up so much mobility to use it as opposed to using aerials which is why I gathered nothing more than the first active hitbox frames. That's the general rule then; if you somehow manage to hit with the later part of the hitbox, you get more (or less) of a (dis)advantage.

Powershields I'm not sure. If Kita is right (which I have my doubts but I myself have no data on such a thing), there's no difference in terms of frame advantage. The illusion of you having more is usually sdue to you not suffering any knockback from a powershield, being closer to the opponent, and thus having more options. Frame 6 FTilt and DTilt are fast, but in terms of sheer speed can't match Sonic's frame 3 jab which if I had a choice between a guaranteed jab follow up and a mix-up tilt, give me my free damage I say.

Once again, there's a formula for figuring most of this out. I don't know it myself, but it tends to be that the more damage a move does, the more shieldstun the opponent will suffer. Now despite the obvious forward smash dealing more damage than Sonic's jab is simply because of the animation. It doesn't matter if FSmash gave your opponent 25 frames of shieldstun when the move ends on frame 50 (note, this is just an example, this isn't really the case); as opposed to say Jab 3 which only deals maybe 5-10 frames of shieldstun but having a much, much faster cooldown of say... oh, maybe 35 frames, or 15? Whatever suits your fancy. Just remember those are still examples and not the actual cases, but you can see there's a huge difference in the degree of punishment (or follow-ups if applicable).

Whew, I hope that covered everything.

 

[Trillion]

If the opponent powershields an attack, does it have the same amount of shield stun frames for the opponent? What about for us?

 

[da K.I.D.]

powershield = no shield stun, no shield pushback, and no shield drop lag.

Also, kin. it sounds like you are saying that those numbers that you have in the OP, are the frame advantage the opponen has AFTER they drop shield, which means that you would have to add 7 frames to the frame disadvantage if they decide to punish with an aerial as opposed to a shield drop attack.

 

[Kinzer]

Also, kin. it sounds like you are saying that those numbers that you have in the OP, are the frame advantage the opponent has AFTER they drop shield, which means that you would have to add 7 frames to the frame disadvantage if they decide to punish with an aerial as opposed to a shield drop attack.

That's precisely it.

... Or at least I think it is anyway, you're somewhat unclear.

... Yeah, I suppose I did TBH. I'm not sure what else I could use though, every opponent has a different attack with a different speed and different range. I only wanted to use the shield since that's universal (excluding Yoshi's) and always comes out on the first frame so I would assume these numbers here are the absolute most any opponent has to punish Sonic.

Is something wrong with that?

 

[da K.I.D.]

It should be obvious whats wrong with that.

when you list frame safety like that, your supposed to list the numbers before shield drop because some character dont have to calculate shield drop into their punish timing.

peach and mk come to mind.

 

[Kinzer]

Are you kidding me?

Ugh, all that does is make things either 6 or 7 frames more punishable considering that you can't drop your shield and act from a neutral position again 7-8 frames later.

I guess I have to re-do this anyway, considering I'm still missing Nair's data.

I guess I should start using Squirtle/ZSS for this kind of thing...

 

[B.A.M.]

lol theres tons of characters that dont have to drop shield to punish. Im glad KID said something. I was taking the data for face value and I was about say how stupid we must all be if that is our true data.