The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

[Jim Morrison]

Thankfully, ledge stalling/planking is already banned.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm not even someone who knows Diddy in and out, but I'm pretty sure that there would've been options for dapuffster to actually do something.

Options, yes, but not quick enough to regain the advantage and keep it. MK is an uphill battle for the whole cast for a reason, right?

And having different stages that can complement any stalling technique MK can do, there's no possible way you can stage-strike these stages before fighting your opponent MK. Ban PS1 and stage-strike SV, then he can take advantage of RC or Norfair. All it really takes is 1 win in the first round, and the deal is sealed if all MK players wanted to do that "play to win" scenario: gain an advantage and camp it out.

Thankfully, ledge stalling/planking is already banned.

In Pound4, the rules state a 70-ledgegrab limit. We put that to the test here in PR between some of our top players, and successfully ledgestalling a whole match with MK ended up with 4x-5x ledgegrabs, and the opponent (which was a DDD played by our 2nd top player according to tourney results) couldn't do much about it.

 

[Red Arremer]

All it really takes is 1 win in the first round, and the deal is sealed if all MK players wanted to do that "play to win" scenario: gain an advantage and camp it out.

All it really takes is 1 win in the first round, and the deal is sealed once your opponent picks your character's worst matchup.
*shrugs*

 

[Kewkky]

All it really takes is 1 win in the first round, and the deal is sealed once your opponent picks your character's worst matchup.
*shrugs*

Heh, at least you can do something to avoid that and change your main before your opponent does something about it. If he CP's Halberd last round, then pick someone who can abuse that stage fairly well against most of the cast because of the low ceiling, and your opponent will CP that character and also be in a disadvantaged situation. MK can't plank or dair camp another MK, so even expected mirror matches can be done instead of just be CP'd and done with. If he takes you to JJ, use Falco or anyone else who's clearly going to choose that stage as a CP, and you're bound to go mirror: you have the same advantages and disadvantages, it's all a matter of skill then, and not unfrair tactics.

MK doesn't need to worry about that, since he's got it pretty easy in terms of MU's compared to the rest of the cast, and a good choice you could do to avoid a bad situation is pick MK himself. Even IC's, which are arguably 50:50, have a huge disadvantage if Nana dies, or they're separated by a large enough margin.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, if you win the second round you'll be screwed in the third.

Match 1: You lose, he has to pick his character first which you can react to and you are going to pick a stage.
Match 2: You win, you have to pick a character first which he can react to and he is going to pick a stage.
Bam, you lose. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight, because that's exactly what the pro-ban side wants.

 

[Espy Rose]

LOL!

Ultimately it is only up to the TOs, the false SBR just gives out recommendations.

I thought we all knew this already.

We do. We also know that a bunch of TOs will be too lazy to bother, and just go by the standard ruleset set by the SBR because it's that much easier.

That's what we're doing right now.

Oh boy, does that mean we'll have another four polls and a year's worth of bantering on that too?

All it really takes is 1 win in the first round, and the deal is sealed once your opponent picks your character's worst matchup.
*shrugs*

Wait, Meta Knight has a worst match up?

Well, if you win the second round you'll be screwed in the third.

Match 1: You lose, he has to pick his character first which you can react to and you are going to pick a stage.
Match 2: You win, you have to pick a character first which he can react to and he is going to pick a stage.
Bam, you lose. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight, because that's exactly what the pro-ban side wants.

True. It just so happens that Meta Knight does so well in sealing the deal.

If you mean the essays that have been posted in the OP of the poll, then know this:
The SBR leadership has set a limit onto the arguments and their length, which the Pro-Ban side has broken. The Anti-Ban side kept inside of these borders, thus their writeup is shorter.

A~nd I'm finished with this nonsense.

 

[Red Arremer]

A~nd I'm finished with this nonsense.

Think I'm lying and making half-truths like so many pro-bans did? Well, here you have the proof:

--To explain the case of your side as clearly and concisely as possible, bring up the BEST points available. Each side will be limited to the following
*7 direct points (ie MK over centralizes brawl, this is bad because of x, or MK does not overcentralize Brawl, this is shown through x - in the direct points you will NOT be responding to the other side, you will simply explain why your side feels MK should or should not be banned) Try to limit each point to less than 10 sentances
*3 counter-points (here, your side takes 3 points of the opposite side and counters them) - try to limit each counter point to less than 15 sentances
*A synopsis of evidence in the year 2009 that supports your side.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, if you win the second round you'll be screwed in the third.

Match 1: You lose, he has to pick his character first which you can react to and you are going to pick a stage.
Match 2: You win, you have to pick a character first which he can react to and he is going to pick a stage.
Bam, you lose. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight, because that's exactly what the pro-ban side wants.

That's what I mean in the CP reply I said in my last post. He wins the first, then you win the 2nd. He picks a stage on the 3rd, it's up to you what advantaged character you want to pick on that stage. Don't just rely on guesses against your opponent, because who knows if you pick a counter to his character, and he pulls a counter on THAT counter? Might as well just go with the character who has a great advantage on the stage.

The thing with MK (specifically his camping) is that he can do the same in many stages. He can successfully dair camp in more than 3, and plank in nearly all of them without being really punished at all. He has that option which can't really be told apart unless they can read your mind's intentions with what you were doing: You jump and dair while re-jumping trying to make your opponent make a mistake? It could easily be confused with actual dair camping, and people may point you out for trying to set up a wall that is virtually impenetrable if your character's attacks aren't disjointed. Same as planking: you might be grabbing the ledge waiting for them to give you a break to get back on the stage, but they don't, so you attack to get him to get out with the safest attack then regrab the ledge to see if it worked and you can safely return. When you look at your opponent, he's still there waiting for you. If you have an advantage, people will blame you for planking because you're doing what planking is essentially known to be: ledgedroppd uair abusing the ledgegrab invincibility frames when you drop from the ledge, then regrabbing it.

In conclusion to that paragraph: MK can plank and dair camp while making it seem like he's doing something else, when in reality his intentions are to camp it out and stall. You can't really control this, and it is a very unfair tactic that is further fueled by this game's physics and play mechanics, which is extending your hurtbox to attack if you don't have disjoints and MK attacking those with a disjoint that can't be clanked with. And no matter what stages your opponent chooses, you're still able to pull off these tactics on practically any stage... So you limit your opponent's options to the point where a couple of characters have no chance, unless the player is extremely skilled and great at reading follow-ups, qhich the majority of the Smash community isn't.

Probably the other SWF frequenters are looking down upon the SBR because it's an obvious issue to them, yet it was overlooked completely by the SBR by not giving them an answer to that problem, which is clearly ruining their gaming experience. And not just because of MK's ability to camp, stall or out-prioritize, but because of their inability to get better faster than their MK rivals, and to execute exactly what you guys say is possible in theory. Putting it as a commandment for people whose levels are not high-level play and top-level play is not really a way of resolving the problem.


Edit: Oh, and tell AlphaZealot that "sentence" is written with an 'e', not an 'a' as in "sentance".

 

[Espy Rose]

Think I'm lying and making half-truths like so many pro-bans did?

You interpreted my words' meaning wrong, good sir.
Insert 1 coin to continue.

 

[Scipion121212]

Counterpick system was lost. No one knows where is grave is, hated by mighty, yet loved by people.. Hanged as a vulgar bandit, with his organs being burned while he still lived.. Sad destiny of brave man.
But as mighty king told, "Victory is my destiny!".. Poor counterpick system, I will always remind him in tough situations. He shall still live in hearts of ours!

QFT!!
10truths (cmon, this thread is joke anyway)

 

[Kewkky]

"You guys, being the best and the brightest in regards to Brawl, could've come up with a better answer than "To Ban or Not To Ban" that would've been accepted by the vast majority of the public. It just so turns out that recommending TOs to try MK Banned events might result in their player turn-up diminishing, so even if others have done it and succeeded in the SBR (and out of the SBR too), other less-confident TO's won't want to risk the chance of a tarnished reputation."

That's what I'm getting from all the SBR hate that's in this topic.

 

[Red Arremer]

QFT!!
10truths (cmon, this thread is joke anyway)

I never said what you quoted.

 

[wangston]

speaking of videos were mk air camps the whole match. Are the videos of Dojo vs dehf from genesis up yet?

 

[Espy Rose]

I never said what you quoted.

What do you mean? Your name's right above the quoted text, silly!

speaking of videos were mk air camps the whole match. Are the videos of Dojo vs dehf from genesis up yet?

They should be getting up soon. You have to bug Nike20 to get them up any faster.
He's still busy uploading other stuff...Melee stuff.

Yeah, disgusting, I know.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

He's still busy uploading other stuff...Melee stuff.

Yeah, disgusting, I know.

**** thats quite a burn you typed there...well...considering how they acted in the genesis thread, they deserve it

 

[Scipion121212]

How did you discover that I actually voted pro-ban!?

Simple psychology (I will do this to you until you get your humor/ctrl+A up)

 

[Dr. Tuen]

About camping, I play MK at community-high-level (he he, I'm probably not all that great at major events, but I'm finally going to one. BIO 3 :-p). Anyways, my friend plays Falco... and air planking him doesn't really work. On FD, Falco can SH laser, then FH laser if i decide to go higher. If I get to close, he can SH cancel a fantasm to the other side of the stage. I can tornado, but that's rock-paper scissors. If he decides to laser again before he uses an escaping fantasm, then I get hit twice. If not, I win.

Anyways! Just saying, it's not very easy to camp every character.

Also, I've heard that including Green Greens in the counterpick selection could help the MK situation. It has a very low ceiling, and that can be worked to your advantage if used correctly. This means fighting in the center of the stage and killing upwards as much as possible. There's also evidence to show that both MK and an opposing character can survive explosions at over 110%.

---

I'm also looking to see what I can statistically prove about the MK vote and SBR, for those looking so "fondly" at their credibility. I only have a little over 35 members recorded, and have searched 1/10 of the member list.

Don't expect much though. The surest methods of statistical analysis can only be achieved with vote data. I would need to know who mained MK, who secondaried MK, who mained and secondaried other characters, and their votes! I can offer not to display specific vote information, but asking disclosure to me is still a request for more information than I'm allowed to have :-p. Anyways, without that the statistical data won't do much. This 'project' is mostly for me and my loads of free time after work, he he.

Anyways! I believe that given what SBR has had to work with, they've done a pretty good job. Recommended rule lists are good as a baseline, and for people just starting out as TOs. People can choose to ban MK at specific events (Just as those in favor of keeping him would have if MK were banned).

-Tuen

 

[Tarmogoyf]

About camping, I play MK at community-high-level (he he, I'm probably not all that great at major events, but I'm finally going to one. BIO 3 :-p). Anyways, my friend plays Falco... and air planking him doesn't really work. On FD, Falco can SH laser, then FH laser if i decide to go higher. If I get to close, he can SH cancel a fantasm to the other side of the stage. I can tornado, but that's rock-paper scissors. If he decides to laser again before he uses an escaping fantasm, then I get hit twice. If not, I win.

Anyways! Just saying, it's not very easy to camp every character.

QQ, have you heard or seen the match of Dojo VS DEHF at Genesis? You can definitley aircamp falco.

BTW, they haven't uploaded the sets yet if you want to search.

 

['V']

Wow.. They must've recorded EVERYTHING at Genesis for it to be taking this long.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Wow.. They must've recorded EVERYTHING at Genesis for it to be taking this long.

See below.

speaking of videos were mk air camps the whole match. Are the videos of Dojo vs dehf from genesis up yet?

They should be getting up soon. You have to bug Nike20 to get them up any faster.
He's still busy uploading other stuff...Melee stuff.

I think they did record like every relevant match though. There were camera's everywhere when I was there.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

QQ, have you heard or seen the match of Dojo VS DEHF at Genesis? You can definitley aircamp falco.

BTW, they haven't uploaded the sets yet if you want to search.

Oh I did hear a little about that. I really want to see the match to see what everything is about. Hopefully it gets uploaded soon. I would have expected it to be uploaded as match evidence for the pro-ban side.

 

[Kewkky]

Oh I did hear a little about that. I really want to see the match to see what everything is about. Hopefully it gets uploaded soon. I would have expected it to be uploaded as match evidence for the pro-ban side.

It doesn't really matter if it's for the pro-ban side or not, since the debate ended a few days ago and now we're just clarifying things that were obscure during the debate, more or less. If it ever IS uploaded (and I hope so), it's yet another video of MK's camping capabilities, but a more recent version of it.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Oh I did hear a little about that. I really want to see the match to see what everything is about. Hopefully it gets uploaded soon. I would have expected it to be uploaded as match evidence for the pro-ban side.

In the voting thread, the anti-ban side said (it was actually in the op) that it was just a bad judge call, and has nothing to do with MK.

*goes to find link*


EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

It's under argument #5

 

[etecoon]

I know, whenever I see that match I laugh at how ******** it is. But it's still one of the better examples as to how MK can successfully camp and time out other characters in the game while they can do nothing but watch.

dapuffster played that game completely stupid, he was clearly out of his league, failed to adapt at all, and using that as an example of MK being broken is a complete joke.

 

[Kewkky]

dapuffster played that game completely stupid, he was clearly out of his league, failed to adapt at all, and using that as an example of MK being broken is a complete joke.

Fine, wait until another more recent match is uploaded, like the long-awaited Dojo vs DEHF that people keep acclaiming.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

In the voting thread, the anti-ban side said (it was actually in the op) that it was just a bad judge call, and has nothing to do with MK.

*goes to find link*


EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

It's under argument #5

I read that earlier. Thanks for the link though! I just haven't heard many details about how the match was played. I'd like to watch it sometime too, but it's not up yet. I look forward to it's release!

 

[Dastrn]

but they could show a little more concern for the mid and lower levels.

Or,

The middle and lower levels can show a little more concern for getting better at the game

 

[etecoon]

Fine, wait until another more recent match is uploaded, like the long-awaited Dojo vs DEHF that people keep acclaiming.

yeah, I'm more curious about this because DEHF is a very competent player, also for anyone that was there/knows, did dojo have a stock lead during this stalling or just a % lead? a stock lead I could see falco struggling a lot with, a % lead, I'm not so sure that he shouldn't be able to overcome it unless MK is planking(yes I know he did some of that but I'd heard it was mostly air camping...)

 

[pizzapie7]

They should be getting up soon. You have to bug Nike20 to get them up any faster.
He's still busy uploading other stuff...Melee stuff.

Yeah, disgusting, I know.

But the Melee stuff was the stuff people cared more about. I mean, who wants to see slow campy gameplay if they could see Mango vs Armade commentated by Waffles and Phil!?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

But the Melee stuff was the stuff people cared more about. I mean, who wants to see slow campy gameplay if they could see Mango vs Armade commentated by Waffles and Phil!?

Which is why there were more brawl entrants?

Spoiler

yes, I know there were only 2 more

 

[etecoon]

more people play brawl because it's newer and is just more profitable, but melee gameplay is obviously more exciting and it's a million times better to watch, watching brawl is kind of...stupid really, it's good for educational purposes only, never entertainment.

 

[pizzapie7]

Which is why there were more brawl entrants?

Spoiler

yes, I know there were only 2 more

Just because there were more Brawl spots then Melee doesn't mean more people cared about Brawl. Look in the Genesis thread, people should have known they would have been flamed for asking about Brawl results when the rest of us were trying to get Melee Grand Final updates.

EDIT: and what the person above me said.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I personally think the bias against brawl is a bit unfair. There are things to like about both games, so there really isn't a reason to flame someone for preferring one over the other.

As for the middle levels (points to self, ha ha), in my experience MK hasn't become over-dominant. He's harder to learn than some people give it credit for. Not to say that he's IC's difficult (or equivalently difficult to a lot of high/top tier characters), but I've seen people have a tough time.

 

[Kewkky]

Just because there were more Brawl spots then Melee doesn't mean more people cared about Brawl. Look in the Genesis thread, people should have known they would have been flamed for asking about Brawl results when the rest of us were trying to get Melee Grand Final updates.

EDIT: and what the person above me said.

Isn't it sad how people enjoy humiliating others for the sake of bringing them to their side, or getting them to leave? I don't think anyone likes getting flamed for no reason.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

*facepalm*

Lets get off this before a flame war starts.

 

[pizzapie7]

Isn't it sad how people enjoy humiliating others for the sake of bringing them to their side, or getting them to leave? I don't think anyone likes getting flamed for no reason.

I don't see what's not to like about it. I find it funny when people try to flame me.

 

[Dastrn]

dugtrio is not that cool

 

[Scipion121212]

Or,

Me and others might want to start getting better at the being polite

QFT, you aren´t nice to mid level people, I agree with you. yes, not only Spadefox

 

[choknater]

Isn't it sad how people enjoy humiliating others for the sake of bringing them to their side, or getting them to leave? I don't think anyone likes getting flamed for no reason.

it's called business baby!

i humiliate myspace users so they can turn to facebook all the time

 

[pizzapie7]

dugtrio is not that cool

Duggy > You

:^D