Wall of Text: A write-up on the pros and cons of the different wall types in a Superball-centred moveset.
I wanted to make a moveset using the write-up posted above and everything fell in its place pretty fast.
Neutral B would be the Superball, Side B would be a Flowerbed Return, Up B would be an updated Flower Trampoline where the Trampoline itself would disappear right after the jump, as the move would already have the functions of catching the ball and throwing it in the garden easily, with Down B being a wall to bounce the ball.
However, there are a few different types of walls to use, each with their own pros, cons and playstyle possibilities.
First is the many kinds of potential walls in function.
Should Daisy put a wall next to her, or should she be able to put out a wall farther away, like Zelda's Phantom?
then mentioned the possibility of a 'delayed wall", not unlike Villager's Tree, although Daisy could sprout her wall from anywhere with the press of a button
Eventually I settled on two types of walls:
The slide wall
is a move that consists of three parts.
First is the charging, which dictates how far the wall would slide after releasing the charge.
This charge could either be Shadow Sneak-style, where the charge cannot be "held" and the more traditional charging style where Daisy can store the charge for later use.
Then is the sliding part.
This is where Daisy would summon the wall and slide it to its destination.
Without charge, this destination is relatively close to Daisy, whereas a charged slide wall would go the extra mile.
Lastly is the wall part, where the wall stays where it is, reflecting Superballs that bounce against it.
The slide wall is a more direct wall when it comes to reflecting Superballs, being able to intercept a ball quickly if Daisy slides it in the desired place in time.
This would allow for quick reflects, as Daisy would be able to put a wall where she needs to when she needs to from any part of the stage.
The quick reaction time can also be used to keep opponents away from the Superball, as Daisy can put up a wall between the opponent and the ball from anywhere from the stage as long as she has enough charge.
This quick reaction time can be emphasised even more with a move where the wall does not stay after being slided, instead reflecting balls that bounce against it as the ball is still sliding.
To balance it out, the charge can be held in order to have a quick way ready to intercept balls from across the stage.
The delayed wall
would instead be more about strategy and pre-planning.
It would consist of three parts.
First is the "planting part"
Daisy would plant a small object on the ground that denotes where the wall is going to be.
This doesn't have to be a seed, just like the wall doesn't have to be a plant.
This wouldn't affect opponents, just like Villager's tree sprout doesn't (except when he uses that blasted custom sprout)
Then the sprouting part unfolds, as Daisy presses the button again to make the wall pop out of the ground.
This would damage and knockback opponents, but nothing too severe.
Then the wall would stay on the ground and reflect any Superballs that bounce against it.
Since Daisy can't swiftly put up a wall with this method, this one would be more about planning and strategy.
If you want to throw the ball, but also want it back, you can put down a wall there, throw a ball, and pop up the wall.
This way, Daisy can put up a wall after throwing a ball for surprising effects.
If you don't want the wall to act as a trap too much, especially since Daisy would be able to sprout it from across the stage, one could implement the requirement that the wall won't sprout when an opponent is close and would get hit.
This would prevent the wall to be used as a way to deter opponents instead of the wall being used to reflect the balls in the right direction.
However, this would not stop Daisy from using the rising wall as a way to get to a higher level to catch balls easier.
Second are the different ways of visually representing a wall.
What I mean by that is that we now have the concept of a wall-hitbox, but how would that hitbox look like in game?
I found three options to be the most likely:
For some Super Mario Land flair, the flying Easter Island statues are the way to go.
The sliding wall would involve a Batadon flying out of the ground before flying forwards to the destination.
The delayed wall would involve Daisy laying down a Ganchan, the rock enemy, which for the reasons of creative liberty changes into a Batadon when pressing the button again.
Functionally, their flying habits make aerial walls possible.
For the sliding wall, they could also pop out of the ground at their destination instead of sliding over the ground itself, damaging opponents, which could keep their zoning potential at a minimum and letting the wall be used for Superball-shenanigans only.
Visually, the walls are the most imposing of the three choices, which means it's hard (pun intended)
to say opponents "can just run through it"
Unlike almost holographic "flower magic", one does not simply run through a statue.
This can get even more troublesome with the sliding wall, where an uncharged wall can put up an extra shield immediately.
The biggest con to them is the lack of Super Mario Land representation throughout the rest of the moveset.
Never is Daisy shown to be a summoner of Super Mario Land and although it's not unlikely that Daisy is capable of summoning her underlings, she's never shown to do so in Mario games or the moveset, making it clash with the rest of her portrayal
Of course when talking about walls in Daisy's arsenal of abilities, Crystal Smash deserves a mention.
For the sliding wall, there are two possibilities.
Either Daisy summons the wall in front of her and pushes it magically to the destination.
Or, resembling Shadow Sneak, the Crystal Wall would automatically pop out at the destination, again leaving out the camping possibilities of a wall shoving over the stage.
For the delayed wall, Daisy can summon the top of the crystal which shows itself completely with a second button press.
Pros are the possibility of a slide-less sliding wall, the fact it's a canonical ability to Daisy that isn't out of place in a sports moveset.
Cons are again the fact that opponents can't run or walk through and the fact Mario Strikers introduced a lot of abilities that are out of character and I feel Crystal Smash is one of them.
Functionally, another con is that crystals can't be summoned in the air, which means the real pinballing potential is left untapped.
A bit generic compared to the others, but Daisy can also use her flower magic to summon a big flower to act as a wall.
For the sliding wall, Daisy can magically slide foward a big flower hologram magic thing.
For the delayed wall, Daisy can plant a seed, turning into a big flower when pressing the button again.
Pros are the fact that flower magic is not as solid as crystals or walls, and thus gives the possibilities of the wall not affecting opponents, the fact they fit into the flower-based moveset thematically and the fact they can be used to upgrade the ball and the fact flower magic can also be performed in the air to perform precise pinball shenanigans.
Cons are the flower magic's genericness, coupled with Daisy not using a flower wall canonically which gives this move a very "pulled a move out of the ass"-like feeling.
(Note: I'm sure it gets annoying that I constantly emphasise on my preference for Daisy to not have powerful defensive tools but walls and other terraforming is really rare in Smash and I don't want Daisy's schtick to be walls, but I want these walls to emphasise her playstyle of technical item player.
Thus, the walls, gardens etc's usefullness should be limited to increasing the depth of Daisy's mobility options and item play instead of being a tool on their own, especially since they're tools that would encourage an extremely passive playstyle on a character that is anything except passive.
Look at DeDeDe, R.O.B and Bowser Jr. All have a clear playstyle, but since they have a move that can trap, they're seen as trapping characters. Daisy, with a wall, would almost certainly be seen as trapping, almost zoning even, with this terraforming at her disposal
It's why I am still sceptical on a wall since it has defensive and trapping uses, albeit secondary in both the sliding and delayed wall types, with the sliding wall sliding opponents away in the initial slide, and the delayed wall acting as a trap in its first stage, with opponents that step on it being prone to being knocked back by Daisy activating stage two)
Gotta tag @Diddy Kong
since he's close to joining our cause
Read up on this idea with this and the post quoted and you're good to go.
Maybe tag moveset bud @Munomario777
too since he likes making movesets.
And since he's not all that active @Thatkidwiththeafro
deserves a special tag as well
Special non-tagging thanks to Tortilla for inspiring me to write the "Daisy is not a passive zoning character" rant that's in this write-up every two lines.
Since Poison Daisy isn't really the way to go, I wanted to continue making a general Daisy moveset, but because thinking of specific moves is really hard here's another one of my moveset design concepts.
Basically I've thought of all the elements a Daisy moveset could and should have when it comes to gameplay.
First is the ball.
Daisy must have a move where she summons a ball.
This way, she has a projectile that she can use to create comboes and extend her range
While the ball is potentially a great way to poke at mid-range, it'd require great technique to consistently aim the ball at the opponent.
On top of that, the ball can't be spammed, as it stays on stage and can't be automatically summoned when it's still on stage.
To prevent the core of Daisy moveset, well, sucking balls by lying on-stage all the time doing nothing, the ball could automatically bounce up if it hits the ground, either by the ball being or taking from Super Mario Land's Superball in that sense.
By letting the ball roam around the stage for so long, Daisy is forced to take the approach and take control of the ball in mid-range, mostly by the tools presented below and thus cannot camp with this powerful projectile by spamming it over and over.
Design-wise, it's to create a core to an unique athlete playstyle, where she's active and mobile without being a rushdown fighter.
Furthermore, it's an amazing way to portray her as the unique blend of aggressiveness and grace, as a technique class-fighter and to further her connection with Peach, who also uses a technical projectile.
Next is an upgraded ball
Of course, as the ball is the crux of her moveset, there should also be a way to upgrade the ball.
Aside from giving Daisy an in-fight objective and a way to let several other of her moves interact with the ball in a special way, it's also a way to further design her character and fighting role.
Giving the upgrade a Lip Stick-effect, for example, makes the ball an excellent damage dealer and creates pressure when combined with a heavy combo, however, it might also seem a bit passive, since the ball does the damage dealing and doesn't require Daisy to go in to capitalise on the damage increase.
In fact, it could very well be used in a zoning playstyle, using the slowly increasing damage to camp the clock as you have higher percentage
Perhaps more interesting would be to split the ball into three like the Torpedo in Super Mario Land.
It'd require Daisy to be more active if she wants to capitalise on the roaming balls by converting them into rapid volleys, but it might seem a bit gimmicky, turning Daisy more into a Pac-Man-esque character with a stage filled with traps than a Diddy Kong where a robust cqc character is spiced up with a projectile.
Of course existing effects, such as Stun or Trip could work as well, although the danger might lie in balance and/or uniqueness
A throwable projectile that trips might be too similar to Diddy, whereas a throwable projectile that stuns might make Daisy too good.
With the core laid down, let's continue with the next part of building Daisy's moveset: Mobility Specials
Since Daisy needs to get to the ball quickly or needs to space correctly easily, Daisy needs some mobility.
This mobility would be, compared to Peach's float, faster and less precise, meaning Daisy would ditch Peach's microspacing in favor of more rigorous spacing.
On top of adding to Daisy's athlete-style, with Daisy essentially gaining multiple jumps, they'd also have the function of keeping up with the ball and its weird angles.
Mobility specials can work in multiple ways, such as a horizontal dive or a third jump.
These mobility specials can also come with an auto-catch function
This auto-catch would create a smooth way to transition between an hypervolley/trapping style of a ball bouncing around, to a more reactionary style of throwing the ball when the time is right.
Alternatively, it might be a good way to reposition the ball in order to start a combo where you want.
Not only an auto-catch function could work, an auto-throw function could work as well, allowing Daisy to throw the ball in more directions than with the original move.
Alternatively, throwing the ball with this function might be a good trigger for the upgraded version of the ball.
Next is a piece of stage control, the ability to plant a garden
This garden can serve a few purposes:
First, it can trigger the ball upgrade: When the ball bounces in the garden (Outright throwing might not work due to that being a bit too easy), it turns into the upgraded version.
This way, Daisy's technique-side can show, since it gives a specific goal to where the ball needs to be goaded, aside from in the opponent's face.
On top of that, it could work for mobility, such as maybe avoiding the end lag on mobility moves by landing in the fresh flowers, but it could also work hurt the opponents' mobility slowing opponents stepping in the flowers, although I'd rather avoid implementing that part of the move in order to keep Daisy from getting a too powerful zoning tool that might allow her to get too passive.
Then there's an obvious move, but one that can change the dynamics in the moveset, which is the inclusion of powered up sports equipment
Really, the only unique thing about these is being a less subtle way to tack on the upgrade onto the ball, allowing Daisy to shoot a powerful ball at the opponent when the right time and the right angle aligns.
Last but not least, there's the wall.
The wall is perhaps the move that I should've started with, since it's relate to the balls the most.
First of all, it's a good way to bounce the ball in the desired direction.
Redirecting the ball might be hard sometimes, but a wall could help in that.
Put a wall on the ledge and the ball is less prone to getting blasted off, or for a more stylish trick, put a wall behind the opponent and throw the ball at him to potentionally hit twice.
Of course, since it's a wall, it can hinder the opponents' movement by putting a wall between you and the opponent.
This can also be used to keep the opponents from reaching the ball.
However, these applications might give Daisy a trap-character moniker too fast and might even turn her into a zoner.
A recurring theme in this design draft, sure, but I really don't want Daisy to be a zoner or a trapper even though she has projectiles.
But of course, it can also be used to help her mobility. Of course, Daisy can use the walls as a way to get higher up easier, but an eventual wall jump can also tremendously increase her mobility and ways to get around.
The wall can come in multiple flavors, as the wall can either spawn a few meters in front of Daisy like Zelda's charged Phantom-move or for a more technical move, Daisy can "plant" a small crystal/flower bud in one location. If she presses the button again, which can be anywhere, the mini-wall grows into a full-sized wall, blocking opponents.
This way Daisy can hinder opponents' movement, but also have greater control over the ball.
A fence can also be incorporated in the garden special.
Aside from having the same uses as a wall on a smaller scale, it can also be used to pinball a ball through the garden, with the garden, slowing opponents, fence, acting as an obstacle and the ball, damaging opponents, working together to limit the opponent's movement.
Also, the fence can be used to implement new mobility tricks for Daisy, such as allowing her to jump over the fence to perform a trick akin to Mario Kart, with her gaining a speed boost afterwards.
Some examples of moves.
Most moves not listed here are easy to guess, like a "Garden" special where she summons a garden, a "Flower Swing" move where she swings with a baseball bat/tennis racket/etc.
Some are more creative, so they're listed here.
Batadon Bastion (Category: Walls)
Two Batadons from Super Mario Land pop out out the ground a few metres next to Daisy, floating one Daisy head above the ground, one on each side of Daisy
Crystal Smash (Category: Walls)
Daisy summons a ring of crystals around her.
But some moves can also use multiple categories:
Flowerbed Return (Categories: Mobility, Garden, Auto-Catch)
Daisy dives forward a few metres, flowers appearing where she lands.
She automatically catches the ball if she's close.
Flower Glider (Categories: Mobility, Wall)
Daisy recovers using a Flower Glider.
Like Peach's Parasol, it knocks up opponents, but also the ball, making it a semi-wall
In order to add the Garden-category, flowers could appear where Daisy lands, as she smashes the big flower in the ground.
Flower Trampoline (Categories: Mobility, Wall, Auto-Catch, Auto-Throw, Garden)
Wooh, that's a biggy.
But I'll break it down.
Daisy jumps up by summoning a Flower Trampoline (Mobility)
Up until the peak, she can catch the ball (Auto-Cafch)
At her peak, she can throw the ball in three directions diagonally downwards (auto-throw)
A small garden appears where the auto-thrown ball lands (Garden)
The trampoline can be angled in three directions (diagonally up left, diagonally up right and upwards) and stays on stage, which causes balls that touch it to bounce in that direcfions (Wall)
Remind you, most of these moves and attributes are shown to be used by Daisy, so it's an unique moveset while keeping outrageous creative liberty away