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The Roy n00b's guide to not be as much of a n00b

handsockpuppet

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*sigh*

I had no idea you guys would be such babies about the fact that Roy is low tier and Marth is better. I'll tone it down for you wimps and address your points later ( I have a 6 hour plane ride to go on right now).
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
O_o um....i have just one thing to say about those two threads. They are both different. Thus hence why I made two.

Now....to further move this conversation along so people stop getting the wrong idea. If anything..this thread actually has some purpose. If this thead doesn't get the approval after some tweaking....we'll continue to have the same meaningless converations about why marth is better than roy, etc. just like in the days before brawl. Most boards do have a: check here before making a new thread type of situation. Some threads are VERY long, and whether you're a noob to the boards or just trying to pick up Roy for the heck of it....yeah...reading through some long behind thread isn't exacting time-friendly.

At any rate...it's just an option. Some people might prefer to check threads, while others may want a thread like this. Peach boards has one....which is kind of outdated *cough*dogyhelpusout*cough*. Case in point...with some fine tuning this could most definitely be a useful thread. Instead of flaming or whining, how about giving CONSTRUCTIVE criticism about how to improve this situation?


Here's some fine tuning for your thread, Sok.

Also....if you're going to spam, at least follow it up with something that actually pertains to the conversation. You can spam and still not make a situation awkward or bad for yourself. Get your spam in before or after the meaningful part of your post. Or throw a silly Roy joke in the post. Don't make it your post. No, that's not a pot shot to anyone, that's a bit of advice.


I've only been on these boards since July of '07, but I'm sick seeing the nonsensical stuff in the Roy boards.
 

Sukai

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turn around....
Okay, everyone (who's interested in intelligent discussion) go to the strategem thread to discuss Down Air, I edited my last post with details.
 

handsockpuppet

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ok, too late to remark on the fact that save for a little hitstun, the dair really sucks and is only good if the opponent is at 200% and falling directly in your range off the edge. Since you have a semi-intelligent discussion going, I'll let it go without mentioning that the time you're putting in this could better be put into any possible move links that can be put in for mindgames or finding some positive ways to explain Roy's current tier position to newcomers.

To address an old topic, it is true, Roy does has the worst recovery in the game. there was even once a recovery tier list, and Roy was bottom (still trying to recover it though (*irony*)). see, ganon falls slowly and is heavy, so his is good. the things that makes C. Falcon above roy are simple (and mind you this also applies for ganon):
1) He's heavy
2) His up-B is a pain in the *** to edgeguard since it grabs you (and to my knowledge has only moderate lag).
3) there's a glitch that good players abuse at the right times. See, in the air, if you do the down-B, you get an extra double jump, which sounds dumb, but when you're higher up in the air, this will save you.

luigi's recovery is beast, no contest.
1) he falls super slow
2) his side B goes really far at full charge, and he can charge it all the way if needed due to his super slow fall (although he rarely needs to). if he's way way off, no charge and hoping for a missfire works every so often.
3) if you tap B really fast during the down-B, Luigi goes upwards (same with Mario and Doc, but Luigi's is the hardest to pull off but goes up the most. mind you, most pros can do it to the biggest extentno problem).

Now for Marth

Marth's favor:
heavy
falls slow (which really affects DI)
has a faster up B
up B can push back anyone who tries to block
has no problem dealing with aerial pushes and gimps (well, certain projectile gimps still work, but not so much the attacking ones)

Roy's favor:
his up B can tilt a little to the side.

in all, Marth wins. mind you, the their side Bs have about the same DI.

side note: there's a lot of things I was planning on saying to the noobs who said that I was a moron and that they're more credible than me and nobody should take what I said seriously, but I'll let that also slide. no need to get into name calling or aggression, even if they started it.
 

Nø Ca$h

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isnt falcos recovery worse than roys? falco falls fast, is easily edge guarded, and has horrible up b/side b.
but yeah roy's sucks too.


last i checked, the name of this thread was "The Roy's n00b guide to not being as much of a n00b". meaning this thread is for people *new* to roy, to help people become familiar with roy.
 

handsockpuppet

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Falco has a stall move, the down-B, which is also good against edge guarders, both with projectiles and aerial gimps. in fact, Falco is not easily edgeguarded, since his aerials are beast and his side-B is tough to edgehog. see, a sweetpotted side-B will knock anybody off the dge if they're dangling there. it can be edgerolled, sure (there's a glitch that if you press R on the edge the game thinks you're still on the edge for a few frames), but If the falco sees it coming he can go just over onto the ledge with less lag than it takes for the opponent to get back on. Admittedly, his up-B isn't great, but it can be angled any direction, including pressuring the side of the stage to kill edguarders and being able to sweetspott from anywhere, including above. but in all, the main thing that makes Falco better is he has so many more choices and can be unpredictable, whereas Roy is completely obvious.

plus he can wall-jump.
 

Nø Ca$h

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first off i know what edge rolling is lol.

and his side b is easily predicted imo. it makes a *noise* lol. flare blade has low enough hit boxes to hit edge sweetspoters, right?

and i know falco is MUCH better than roy. (best projectile, one frame combo tool, best spike, ect. and roy is just a limited, laggy marth.)i also use marth part-time, everyone has bad recovery to him.just cause i posted here, doesnt mean im a roy noob, but im not awesome.... yet.

p.s.nice sig, u main soldier in tf2?
 

LSDX

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Can we please cease this pointless arguing and continue with the thread at hand? kthx.
 

handsockpuppet

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Agreed. and yes, I main the Soldier in TF2.

anyway, if anyone has any input they wish to share, especially a "nicer" way to put things, it would be greatly appreciated.
 

Nø Ca$h

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i wasnt trying to argue. my apologies if it came off in that manor.

imo, this guide wouldve REALLY helped me when i first started roy. it has the guidelines of him written in black and white.
good job
 

LSDX

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isnt falcos recovery worse than roys? falco falls fast, is easily edge guarded, and has horrible up b/side b.
but yeah roy's sucks too.


last i checked, the name of this thread was "The Roy's n00b guide to not being as much of a n00b". meaning this thread is for people *new* to roy, to help people become familiar with roy.
Falco has two recovery options (even though Firebird is a poor one) while Roy one has one. It could be disputed that Roy has 1.5 recoveries due to his being more vertical or horizontal depending on how you utilize his blazer.
 

TresChikon

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Wow there's been quite a bit of quarreling.

Seems like Handsockpuppet is just trying imply that Roy has to work much much harder to compete with gay chars like Marth.

Falco's recovery beats Roy's because he has a high as hell wall jump and more options to mindgame his way back on the stage. Roy only has up+b and air dodge.

Anyways my question is that is it worthwhile trying to space with fairs like Marth or is the hitlag so little that it's just best to forget about it?

Also, it looks like only the first side b gives lift like doc's cape. Does that mean i'm shooting myself in the foot if i do it more than once during recovery?

And is it possible to ledgehop-dair-meteor smash like marth's ledgehop spike?

Oh and can Roy stall?
 

ChivalRuse

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Seems like Handsockpuppet is just trying imply that Roy has to work much much harder to compete with gay chars like Marth.
He does.

Falco's recovery beats Roy's because he has a high as hell wall jump and more options to mindgame his way back on the stage. Roy only has up+b and air dodge.
Agreed.

Anyways my question is that is it worthwhile trying to space with fairs like Marth or is the hitlag so little that it's just best to forget about it?
Fairs are okay if Marth is in the air. But generally you want to use uairs in that scenario. Fair sucks when Marth is grounded because he can CC to grab you and that hurts.

If you're GOING to approach Marth, I would recommend dtilts, grabs, and occasionally a DED.

Also, it looks like only the first side b gives lift like doc's cape. Does that mean i'm shooting myself in the foot if i do it more than once during recovery?
Usually you only need the one side b to either air stall briefly or get you some momentum for your recovery. If you do side b in the air more than once, it does slow your falling speed some, and gains you a very small amount of horizontal distance.

So, if you recover from a high angle, usually using multiple side b's to recover is advantageous.

And is it possible to ledgehop-dair-meteor smash like marth's ledgehop spike?
You can, but it's difficult. I would say you have a better chance of ledgespiking your opponent than meteoring him.

Oh and can Roy stall?
By regrabbing the edge and regaining his invincibility frames? There's some debate over that. I don't know how thoroughly it's been tested. But it's pretty much a legitimate stall.
 

handsockpuppet

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Fairs are okay if Marth is in the air. But generally you want to use uairs in that scenario. Fair sucks when Marth is grounded because he can CC to grab you and that hurts.

If you're GOING to approach Marth, I would recommend dtilts, grabs, and occasionally a DED.
correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he means if you should do it against normal opponents, like marth does. I guess the answer is yes, since roy can easily be comboed, so you need to keep distance, but maybe not as much as Marth since you want to be close to sweetspot. also, kee in mind spamming fairs is not a valid tactic like it is if you're marth. I would suggest nair more, and remember to SHFFL almost always.

Usually you only need the one side b to either air stall briefly or get you some momentum for your recovery. If you do side b in the air more than once, it does slow your falling speed some, and gains you a very small amount of horizontal distance.

So, if you recover from a high angle, usually using multiple side b's to recover is advantageous.



You can, but it's difficult. I would say you have a better chance of ledgespiking your opponent than meteoring him.



By regrabbing the edge and regaining his invincibility frames? There's some debate over that. I don't know how thoroughly it's been tested. But it's pretty much a legitimate stall.
the first hit of DED does help, and you can do it multiple times. even though he effectiveness goes down with less air momentum, I don't think it really hinders you until like the 5th time.

I would not recommend doing any aerials off the edge. it has more lag then Marth's, and Roy falls way faster. plus, the dair is a very weak meteor smash (really easy to cancel) and only certin hitboxes smash (when your back is to them or they're directly below you).

Ledge stalling is effective, but mind the fact you can't do an immediate aerial and Roy falls fast. if you fastfall the ledgestall it's way better, but practice it a million times to make sure you don't mess up.
 

TresChikon

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Mmm, makes a lot of sense, but I was wondering about Roy's spacing versus the rest of the cast, any different from Marth? Or just stick to his awesome CCC and DED games?

EDIT: Hah, My post came like right after handsocks's and yeah I was asking about spacing against everyone in general.

Thanks for the Marth tip(pun intended) anways Chival, ill keep that in mind.

I don't even think Roy can survive that long offstage to use 5 DEDs, hah but I'll be sure to use that info wisely.

Got it, no aerials off the ledge, it's so easy to SD sometimes.

And ledge stalling will definetly improve my Roy

Thanks for the hand!(pun intended)
 

Nø Ca$h

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i dont like puns... >:[ . jk ;)

ledge hop dair is a no no. if its not sweet spotted, your opponent is at a better place to recover (and its easily meteor canceled). creativity is key though :) keep being creative w/ ledge stalling.

bah! i see where i was wrong in the falco recov. thing.
im sorry, i had insomniac johns XD
 

ChivalRuse

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@ Handsockpuppet: Fair is just a bad move in general. It just doesn't have enough hitstun. Retreating fair is decent, though, if you need to creat space. Yeah, I agree with you on nair. Nair is like the best aerial for approaching. You just have to be careful not to get shield grabbed. So be ready to nair through shields often and to SH waveland backward if you feel that you're headed for a bad landing spot.
 

darkoblivion12

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@ Handsockpuppet: Fair is just a bad move in general. It just doesn't have enough hitstun. Retreating fair is decent, though, if you need to creat space. Yeah, I agree with you on nair. Nair is like the best aerial for approaching. You just have to be careful not to get shield grabbed. So be ready to nair through shields often and to SH waveland backward if you feel that you're headed for a bad landing spot.
i find fair to be best when followed by a grab or dtilt. also DED air stall to fair is decent.
 

TresChikon

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So another question:

Normally it's ideal to space just enough to get the sweetspot, however are there any applications for an intentional sourspot?

Similarly to how Marth can sourspot some moves to chain combos better (i.e. Ken Combo.) The only real use I could figure out was to sourspot a nair at mid percentages to follow up with D-tilt, but even then, DI could break the combo making it not so reliable.
 

handsockpuppet

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the sourspotted nairs make it easier to get the second hit to connect, but the damage ratio doesn't change much between two sourspots and one sweetspot.

the main other things are the tipper on the flare blade is actually the sweetspot, and Roy's DED doesn't change in damage if tippered (and tippers can prevent easy shieldgrabs). You could also argue that the tippered Usmash when the opponent is coming down is the easiest way to Usmash spike.
 

TresChikon

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So with all of what you guys said, what would benefit a Roy's match more?

Spacing of U-airs, Nairs, Fairs, and DED to corner opponents for the kill?

Or to stick to the ol' Roy tactics like DD and CCC combo them to death? Or a healthy combination of both?

I'm just wondering if Roy is better suited to act as a tank of mindgames or can apply some pressure and mobility.
 

Ripple

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60% of the bottom and 40% of the top
 

joeplicate

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If people act like morons then I'll call them morons, you may be right that handosck isn't a moron being as I have no idea who he is and I only have this thread to judge his intelligence on, but in this thread he has clearly demonstrated a clear lack of intelligence and apparently other people agree with me.
dude i'm so glad this guy got banned looool
 

handsockpuppet

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*Taking NOVA's advice to take this argument to the core*
Actually, when hsp first wrote that "guide" it was garbage, I mean he said never ftilt, lol! Anyway since he got flamed he took some stuff out, but seeing as how no one has post in that thread in over a month... I'm guessing it's still a garbage guide. And I'm not just trying to hate, but it's true... no offense Hsp. So for all though future would-be-guide-makers, instead of talking about how garbage roy is and saying never to try anything accept dd and ded, try to list the pros and cons of roy's moveset and why YOU chose to use or not to use a particular move in a particular situation.
As much as I want to not take offense, its hard to not after a noob somehow thinks he's way more credible than me and thinks that people actually agree with him when he comes to a conclusion that because Roy can't be garbage, this thread must be. and who said he'd leave but came back anyway because he couldn't let it go. garbage thread? If you actually read all of it you'd noticed that in no way did I say that If you use Ftilt once in a match you'll never be good, I merely advised not using it. It's true I took that out, but that was all I took out, and this thread is just as good as it was in the beginning, which, IMO, was not garbage. so go love ike or something and join your friend virus and get banned.
 

Nø Ca$h

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*sniff sniff* do i smell a mm? naw jk.
but i agree with the puppeteer.

" :) you must learn to walk before you run :) "
-chinese fortune cookie.
i think it could apply to this thread well.
 
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