Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Oasis_S]

Y'KNOW, I'm curious Mr. Lange, what do you think of my Ridley design:

I kind of just threw the wings on there pretty quickly, but they wouldn't be part of his hurtbox so I didn't care that much. They should be a bit bigger since even Charizard's are bigger than his. Anyway, his body faces forward mostly, reducing his overall length. This allows his neck to appear scrunched up in a way that also keeps his head closer to his body. His head would also still be visible whether facing left or right. Overall his hurtbox remains in a pretty clear area. His tail is short like in Super Metroid, but not only has it appeared "stretchy" before in Metroid games, Smash is no stranger to using exaggerated animations like that to compensate. Speaking of Smash's exaggerated animations, his wings would also appear larger as they flapped, I imagine.

I made rather strict rules for myself for his size. He couldn't be taller than Bowser overall, the top of his head couldn't go over Ganondorf's, and he had to be at least eye level with Samus. He could stand to be a bit bigger, if that was really necessary. Maybe 10, 15%.

I tried to portray him as rather bestial, since that is apparently how Sakurai seems to view him, though I probably should have made his arms and hands in a more "ready to attack" stance. I figure Ridley's walk would have him, y'know, walking, and I think this stance would transition well enough into that kind of animation (and of course going into a flying dash shouldn't be a problem), but if he ends up galloping or crawling on all-fours then that stance probably wouldn't work.

So yeah, honestly, is it terrible, does it not work for him, what. OF COURSE OTHERS CAN COMMENT ON IT TO, been a while since I've brought it up and I think putting it in the collapse tag probably kept some people from ever seeing it.

 

[FalKoopa]

I suppose that size fits him. But I find that pose a bit awkward.

 

[Oasis_S]

What would you suggest? It's a good discussion to have, because we all go on about how implementing him isn't a big deal, yet when it comes to visualizing it there's not much to go on. And most of the hacks suck.

 

[Anomilus]

Missed everything I said. Woosh.

I was simply noting that Pikachu can go around carrying a gun in Smash Bros. Wasn't trying to counter any arguments. Heck, somebody else might actually see the bit of humor in my post.

So having said that, I'm gonna step aside from the debate for a second...

Mr. Lange, you really need to exercise some humility in your posts.

Would it hurt to recognize that others may not see things your way? Not in terms of right and wrong, but in varying angles of the discussion. Not everything you're arguing can be solid fact. In fact, this is the kind of debate that relies on speculations and theories and mostly anecdotal evidence. Not that there isn't facts and hard evidence to consider, but the point is you have to be careful in how you regard your own arguments. This constant dismissal of other people's interpretations and replies causes you to look hostile in your efforts to make solid arguments. Believing your own arguments to be exceptional creates arrogance and further encourages dismissing other replies. Interpretation runs high in these considerations of a game character's role, so you should try to bear with other people if they see things from a different perspective.

Your goal should be to present your perspective, back it up, and just see what other people come up with. Try not to narrow the possible range of responses. If the response you receive seems to curve away from your point, address their argument anyway and steer it back to your primary point. Or consider that the response comes from a different perspective.

 

[FalKoopa]

I actually expect a more hunched-over pose for Ridley, somewhat like how Bowser was in Brawl and Melee and a bit like DK.

 

[Erimir]

They don't approach designing the game with that kind of mindset. There's a consistency with the individual properties that they add to the game. When combined, it becomes nonsensical, but there's an established design that we are familiar with for each individual piece of the game, be them characters, items, or stages.

You're taking me out of context.

You're responding as if I suggested that they can and would just do anything whatsoever, when I was only saying that in reference to Ridley's size. All I was saying is, you know, take that stick out of your ass and stop sweating over minor details. If you do that, you'll never be happy with the game.

And I mean, the concept of the game is that you're playing with dolls or figurines, in which case the size changes totally make sense in both directions. Olimar is larger relatively speaking, Bowser is smaller. Given that concept, Ridley being smaller also makes total sense.

Either way, making Ridley smaller is NOT the same thing as

smearing and distorting the hell out of a character until it is not even the same character anymore.

Maybe it is to you, but that's not any kind of objective truth, and it's certainly not a subjective judgment that I agree with.

And the way you talk about it like nobody else could have a different opinion and you've somehow "proven" that your opinion is true with "logic" is just arrogant and more than a little bit dumb.

Also, that's kinda what they did to Ganondorf already. Yes, time constraints in Melee. They had the opportunity to fix it in Brawl and they didn't. So yes, they are willing to distort the hell out of a character, way more than simply making Ridley a bit smaller would do.

And I notice you didn't bother to defend yourself as supposedly being a Ridley supporter. You clearly DON'T want him to be in the game (as a playable character), don't try to get some kind of extra credibility by claiming you do.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wow....

You guys had an argument with a Ridley hater without me?

I'm never invited to anything.

You haven't seen the last of me.
I'LL BE BACK

That line makes me think he's a troll.

I mean he sounds like some old Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Man, just woke up and sure don't feel like reading so many pages of arguing.

One thing that I saw was Ridley was compared to Master Hand and Rayquaza. Ridley hasn't been that kind of boss in over a decade in the Metroid games by now, he's by far the most mobile boss in the franchise now, evidenced by the Meta Ridley battle in Metroid Prime and Omega Ridley battle in Metroid Prime 3. He makes Bowser look immobile as all living heck. And again, Master Hand and Rayquaza are about being big, Ridley isn't.

Then there's the size thing. As I said, it's a spin-off series, it's the kind of franchise that made Bowser and Petey Piranha playable to begin with (don't know Petey's size in Mario Kart though), for the sake of fun. An important example is, like it or not, Olimar. Pikmin is, besides leading an army, only about being smaller than anything else in the universe, it's actually part of Olimar's character. Being big isn't part of Ridley's character, recent games even acknowledge that with Ridley getting smaller in the very same game. Ridley is noticeably bigger as Meta Ridley in Prime 3 than his Omega Ridley appearance in the very same game, o his Meta Ridley appearance in his last appearance before that. Why? Because the Meta Ridley fight in Prime 3 required him to be very big, where as he wasn't supposed to be humongous in the Omega Ridley fight. Even th canon changes his size without explanation in order to make him fit their vision, if the canon can then it's a no brainer that a freaking spin-off series can.

And again, proportions isn't a problem, he's actually easier to pose than Charizard since he's so much thinner. Charizard is harder to find a stance for than Ridley, mainly because of his chubby legs, big belly and long neck, which also makes him harder to animate. Ridley is even easier than that, he is thin and has much more space to move in because of that, and his wingspan can be changed as desired as it even is in Brawl between his two boss fights, and again, as it is in Prime 3.

Size is far from what might hinder his inclusion, but it's apparently the one that's the easiest for people who don't want him in to go to. Not saying tou're anti-Ridley Mr Lange, jus referring to other past posters.

Btw, phone posting sucks.

 

[BlitznBurst]

God damn, all this HULLABALOO and we didn't even overtake the K. Rool thread in number of views.

THIS WAS ALL POINTLESS.

I found this far funnier than I should have :<

 

[LaniusShrike]

Guys.

GUYS.

GUYS.

It's spelled canon.

 

[IsmaR]

Guys.

GUYS.

GUYS.

It's spelled canon.

Spoiler

I actually expect a more hunched-over pose for Ridley, somewhat like how Bowser was in Brawl and Melee and a bit like DK.

I distinctly remember this was one of my earlier posts in this thread.

Bowser's posture update actually made me somewhat hopeful. They more than likely made him less hunched to differentiate him from a certain other reptile. Or other reptile(s).

Not that I think other characters have to conform just to include Ridley. Since then, I've adopted the belief he'll use the mix of being-quadrupedal/standing half the time, and maybe even floating during his running animation. Whatever works, really.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Y'KNOW, I'm curious Mr. Lange, what do you think of my Ridley design:

I think it'd work out pretty well. As you can see in the picture, it's what Ganondorf, Mario, Charizard, and Squirtle all do. I think they definitely could make his idle and walking pose be facing the screen without it looking weird, and with the way that his multi-jointed neck works he can pretty much look in any direction comfortably.

So, yeah, I like it, Oasis. I think it works much better than the directly sideways pose that you normally see.

Like, here is the image I had last night with what I was thinking of as the hitbox. It is true that having such a large head not be part of it is kind of harder to tell in at first glance, so your posture's great.

 

[FalKoopa]

Y'KNOW, I'm curious Mr. Lange, what do you think of my Ridley design:

Y'know, this picture really reminds me of the dinosaur size charts on Wikipedia.

I distinctly remember this was one of my earlier posts in this thread.

Really? Well, good to know, I suppose.

 

[RadRedi]

Well, good morning, everyone! I see there have been a few pages added. I'm sure it was nothing.

I see we've pulled out some reference charts. I like it! It's these kinds of things that helped me see just how Ridley might work in SSB.

I picture him being like SSBM/SSBB Bowser and Wolf mixed into one. He's definitely one of the bigger characters, but crouches over. As I believe someone else said, his extremely skinny frame makes for, really, a combination of decent poses. I think he could work in a really crouched-and-ready bipedal position.

Moreover, Ridley shouldn't be too terribly animated while on the ground. Since we mostly see him in the air, he could be an extraordinary aerial brawler.

 

[Kamiko]

What I've read of the past five pages so far has been painful. I'll read the rest later. I need sleep.

 

[Volodya]

I think some of these arguments could gain a healthy benefit from looking into making size comparison charts for SSB4? Very difficult with the limited resources available, I know. But something as simple as Samus's size currently (relative to other known characters) versus that in Brawl (relative to those same characters) would grant a better perspective.

This isn't specific advice for a certain side here, because I don't know the answer. Samus could be bigger or smaller now, but I think that's what is most important. Ridley's size relative to Samus must be believable. Some suspension of disbelief is fine because this is just Smash Bros, but let's not fabricate a space dragon from nothing and just conveniently name him after a famous director.

You feel me?

 

[Starcutter]

something as simple as Samus's size currently (relative to other known characters)

does this help?

Probably not too much, but it probably does a little.

 

[Volodya]

Well, the camera angle allows for some errors, but otherwise yes. Things like that.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm fairly surprised we didn't use the screenshot from the other day as a reference already.

Samus definitely doesn't seem small from legendofrob1's image, yet Bowser's still huge in comparison. Ridley could easily find some middle ground.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser just wants a hug there....

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Man....this thread...

Spoiler

 

[Xigger]

Isn't there some saying like...

"Size doesn't matter"?

 

[Starcutter]

Isn't there some saying like...

"Size doesn't matter"?

well, it kinda does. it's not like we can make him half the size of samus or even kirby and say it's OK. But I get your point

 

[IsmaR]

well, it kinda does. it's not like we can make him half the size of samus or even kirby and say it's OK.

Spoiler

Anyone who says mini-Ridley (not Little Birdie) isn't cute is out of their gourd.

 

[Xigger]

well, it kinda does. it's not like we can make him half the size of samus or even kirby and say it's OK. But I get your point

Nah, more funny than serious. All I know about the Ridley situation is the Melee cutscene and some quote along the lines "Ridley would be almost impossible. He would have to be slow, would that be all right? -laughs-"

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Geez Mr Lange, calm down. You're better than this. Sonic After the Sequel is proof (albeit I feel like you oversell the game).

I think that like Morbid Altruism catches on, and I think I know where you're coming from (Ridley's character is defined by how he's a boss archetype, right?).

So let me challenge you with this: How is that fundamentally different than Mario/Bowser? I don't see any difference there.

 

[Oasis_S]

Hmmm, you know, as much as I hate Samus's Other M design, it is a sleeker look which would make it even easier for Ridley to appear larger than her.


ALSO. *FLEX MUSCLES* IS EVERYONE FEELING STRONG TODAY?! YOU SHOULD! YOU HAVE ALL HELPED MAKE THE RIDLEY THREAD THE PERFECT, MOST #1 SUPPORT THREAD AROUND. MOST REPLIES. MOST VIEWS. RIDLEY'S SUPPORT IS THE STRONGEST IN THE WHOLE WORLD!

 

[BlitznBurst]

Hmmm, you know, as much as I hate Samus's Other M design, it is a sleeker look which would make it even easier for Ridley to appear larger than her.


ALSO. *FLEX MUSCLES* IS EVERYONE FEELING STRONG TODAY?! YOU SHOULD! YOU HAVE ALL HELPED MAKE THE RIDLEY THREAD THE PERFECT, MOST #1 SUPPORT THREAD AROUND. MOST REPLIES. MOST VIEWS. RIDLEY'S SUPPORT IS THE STRONGEST IN THE WHOLE WORLD!

You may have won this time, but I'll be back. Just you wait until K. Rool is announced...

 

[Anomilus]

Okay, here's a rough example of my vision of putting Ridley in Smash. Keep in mind this is solely based off of Ridley moving about in a quadrupedal stance.

After drawing Ridley I actually scaled him up a tiny bit. I also inserted Samus into this scene, assuming this is her size compared to Bowser. As shown, the idea is for Ridley to be at Bowser's height in his neutral stance.

The goofy looking red frame drawings above Bowser and to the right show the reason I'm fond of quadrupedal Ridley. Excusing the difficulty of showing perspective, Ridley's actual size makes him almost 2x as tall as Samus. Obviously, he goes right through platforms while bipedal. Which I'm actually fine with if it's only during certain attacks and while jumping. Actually, it reminds me of Mario's Super Mushroom taunt. That clearly will clip through anything above Mario, so the idea of Ridley also clipping through things above him isn't that big of a deal. At least to me it isn't...

Having said that, the moveset concepts I'm still working on don't exactly abuse this prospect. I so far only have one of my Up Smash ideas putting Ridley on his feet to attack, and currently I'm leaning more towards an Up Smash that keeps him on all fours. On the other hand, I'm actually leaning towards a Down Smash that puts him on two feet. Like Up Smash though, there's more than one concept I'll show off when I'm finally ready to release some more images.

Back to this neutral stance, I've most certainly haven't been thinking only about attacks. On the contrary, I want to take a break from drawing attacks and start drawing universal interactions. One thing that I want to address is how Ridley will be grabbed by other characters. Two ideas come to me: grabbing Ridley's snout so that he's struggling to get free, and grabbing Ridley by the neck. The latter can have Ridley turn his head away or perhaps tilt his head upward, his mouth opening and tongue hanging out. I'll have to sketch something out to see which one feels best.

And here's one concept I'll just write out. In regards to Ridley picking up and carrying large crates and barrels, I actually had the idea of having Ridley carry crates underneath him while rapidly flapping his wings. He'll still cover distance slowly like any character holding a heavy item, but I thought it would be a neat twist to the typical hunched over position other characters assume.

 

[Erimir]

That looks... too big. TBH

 

[FalKoopa]

Well, I'd rather not have Ridley in a completely quadrupedal stance. I doesn't suit him at all, imo.

Also, Ridley being twice the size of Bowser is too big, really. Needs more downscaling.

 

[Anomilus]

At one point

Well, I'd rather not have Ridley in a completely quadrupedal stance. I doesn't suit him at all, imo.

At one point I probably would have agreed with you. However, Omega Ridley pulls it off quite well and even manages to exude a very dragon-like aura with how he moved about. I recognize that being in such a stance takes away from his typical boss stature which reflects Super Metroid and the like.

Like I said, this is how I see it. Also keep in mind this is only on the ground. While off the ground Ridley can assume a position very similar to his Metroid appearances, or perhaps even similar to his appearance in Brawl, so it's not all bad. And personally, while I'm not against a bipedal Ridley being at Bowser's height, I just think that if something bigger can be achieved without becoming awkward, that should be the path to take.

In any case, my full vision will come to light when I finish the concepts. Even if it isn't accepted by many people, at the least I can be sure some people who can't even imagine Ridley fighting will have something to build on in their head. I find that much more important than any attempt to win over people who already believe Ridley can be playable. :o

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think they could get away with making Ridley the same height as Bowser in his upright stance. They could pull that off me thinks.

 

[Z1GMA]

Just turn him into a accordion and his frame'll be just fine.
His neck can already do that, after all.

 

[RODO]

Bowser is standing upright so that Ridley won't look too big! Ridley confirmed!!

 

[Phaazoid]

wish I named myself Shark on this site wish we could change names

God I wish that too. I made my account like, (checks join date) 2006, and had no username creativity back then. Nowadays I register my username as "Phaazoid" everywhere, but coming back here it's all like nop your name is samus+bday.

But maybe I'd change it to Mr. (something) because being addressed as Mr. all the time is great. Mr. Grike? Yeah, I like the sound of that.

THIS WAS ALL POINTLESS.

But that's why it's all so much fun!

View attachment 1278

tried to make it my avatar but the website told me it was too big

I guess lange wins

 

[RODO]

But in all honesty Sakurai could do whatever he wanted. He could do a "new challenger approaching" vid with Ridley working out and getting ready for the Smash tourney. Just as he is getting ready to leave he receives a letter in the mail saying he is too big to participate. So then he rounds up some of his space pirate scientist buddies and they make a shrinking machine for him that makes him a tad smaller. Or he could be carrying around a poison mushroom in his pocket that keeps him at a smaller size. Or Sakurai could just say "I do what I want" and make him smaller with no explanation.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

New counter argument for Ridley.

So Bowser uses magic at different instances in the Mario series. Ridley has been cloned how many times?

We could just say the Ridley in Smash is a smaller clone

 

[MasterOfKnees]

God I wish that too. I made my account like, (checks join date) 2006, and had no username creativity back then. Nowadays I register my username as "Phaazoid" everywhere, but coming back here it's all like nop your name is samus+bday.

Pleased to meet you, I'm Wariofan1. I don't main, and hardly even alt Wario anymore. He was not my most anticipated character for Brawl, he isn't my favorite Nintendo character, I haven't played a WarioWare game in years, and the only Wario games I enjoy these days are Wario Land 2 and Wario Land: Shake Dimension. But as you can still read, I am obviously still the #1 Wario fan, because my name says so.

I swear, this is the forum I'm the most active on recently, and it's the last place I have this dreaded name, and I have no idea why I even have it since I had dropped the name a long time ago in 2010, which is my sign up date. It kind of gives off the wrong impression of me, I'd much rather be named something that actually has to do with my Smash Bros activity, but nope, stuck with this hell of a name.

I guess we all have our embarrasing childhood online names.

 

[IsmaR]

Alternatively the dead people Ridley eats to regenerate himself are chock-full of nutrients. Some people drink milk, Ridley drinks bone marrow.

Also went with my real name as a username.~ It was unique sounding enough already.