Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Oasis_S]

The intention to make Ridley large is always because he is a always a boss. Being a boss calls for that kind of thing. Easy way to make something scary and intimidating. Obviously, being playable would call for something different. It's really that simple.

Beyond that you would have to argue "why should he be playable to warrant those changes?"


They can't ruin Ridley any more than they can ruin every other character in Smash, since they're all just caricatures of themselves to begin with.

 

[Mr Lange]

Yep, last few posts convinced me that no one is reading anything I've written.
Including Morbid's response.
Smash does care about canon, and they do care about scale. They will flex a bit, but they won't defy expectations with what has been established with the characters. That is poor design practice. It would defeat the purpose of doing this, because if they do start making characters radically different from what they are, then they've crossed a line where there's no logical end to how much they can change the characters.

The intention to make Ridley large is always because he is a always a boss. Being a boss calls for that kind of thing. Easy way to make something scary and intimidating. Obviously, being playable would call for something different. It's really that simple.

Beyond that you would have to argue "why should he be playable to warrant those changes?"


They can't ruin Ridley any more than they can ruin every other character in Smash, since they're all just caricatures of themselves to begin with.

They don't just do that. They don't just change sizes at a whim. They want to try and keep things recognizable. By that argument Kraid is every bit as valid of a playable character simply because he's a boss, and he's large. No, they're not going to make Kraid playable for obvious reasons. The same thing applies to Ridley.

So you know what, why don't we argue that Kraid should be playable? If they're so willing to ignore canon and change sizes, there's no reason Kraid can't be playable. And look he was Samus's size in the first game. Obviously they don't care then I win every argument checkmate the end "Kraid is too big" is stupid.

 

[Oasis_S]

And they would keep things recognizable by making Ridley larger than Samus, since that is the only kind of scale that matters

Also they could totally make Kraid or Rayquaza playable if they really wanted to, lol. Just have a bit of an imagination, will you.

 

[IsmaR]

Keep all Kraid discussion in this thread, mate.

http://smashboards.com/threads/kraid-for-smash-4.337053/

 

[Xhampi]

If Ness and Lucas can learn their moves from their friends just for smash, can't the space pirates just make a clone of Ridley like they have done in the past and use their technology to do some modifications to his body (space pirates are known for doing this.....a lot) to make him smaller than the original for whatever reason like make him better at avoiding attacks or more fast ?

 

[Morbi]

Yep, last few posts convinced me that no one is reading anything I've written.
Including Morbid's response.
Smash does care about canon, and they do care about scale. They will flex a bit, but they won't defy expectations with what has been established with the characters. That is poor design practice. It would defeat the purpose of doing this, because if they do start making characters radically different from what they are, then they've crossed a line where there's no logical end to how much they can change the characters.

They don't just do that. They don't just change sizes at a whim. They want to try and keep things recognizable. By that argument Kraid is every bit as valid of a playable character simply because he's a boss, and he's large. No, they're not going to make Kraid playable for obvious reasons. The same thing applies to Ridley.

So you know what, why don't we argue that Kraid should be playable? If they're so willing to ignore canon and change sizes, there's no reason Kraid can't be playable. And look he was Samus's size in the first game. Obviously they don't care then.

You do know Olimar is the size of a quarter, correct? He is literally scaled up to about 100x his original size. Secondly... since you clearly know nothing about Legend of Zelda. Sheik only exists during the OoT timeline. She doesn't exist in Twilight Princess. Secondly, Zelda never uses Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or Nayru's Love. Another argument could be made that Young Link cannot get Fire Arrows or use the Longshot. How about Ganondorf not using his sword... despite being a swordsmen? This is just in regards to LoZ canon. There are FAR more inconsistencies within all of the other franchises...Mewtwo is a speed based Pokemon. However, he is one of the slowest in the game. No doubt they are small inconsistencies... which is why I don't care. Neither should you.

I did read what you said... basically you are saying that Smash cares about canon without any evidence. Everything points to the contrary. So if you want to give me a few examples?

 

[Deleted member]

At this point, why should anyone care what you have to say, Mr. "Large", since you clearly don't care what anyone else says?

Trying to pull the other irritating Ridley detraction act of desperation of "why not *insert other large character* too?" just tells me you ran out of anything worth taking seriously.
Why should Kraid be playable?

Let's see, what has Kraid done for the Metroid series....
-appeared in the Metroid games a whopping total of 3 times, one being a remake (though to be fair, he was planned for a 4th in Metroid Prime).
-only served as a stubborn brute as a lines of defense for Mother Brain; nothing else.

By terms of importance to the series, Kraid is pretty damn low on the list. At least he's higher up than Crocomire...

Now, in comparison, what has Ridley done?
-appeared in the Metroid games in some form in all but 3 games.
-serves as the leader of the Space Pirates, and worked for Mother Brain for self-benefit.
-serves as Samus' ****ing origin story and the reason why the series has a plot to begin with.
-is Samus' archnemesis.

....no contest. Ridley is pretty much the most major character of the series outside Samus herself.

How about popularity?
Well, Ridley is pretty much Metroid's most requested/popular character for Smash, ever since pre-Brawl days.
Kraid? Barely any support if any legitimate support whatsoever (as in, not fake support from people saying stupid **** like "if Ridley isn't too big, then Kraid isn't")


That settles it; Kraid is simply not worthy as a playable character.
And note, how I didn't even use size as reasoning. That's because it's **** reasoning from any end of the argument.
Having a Fake Kraid sized Kraid with Real Kraid size mode attacking from the background as a Final Smash would be reasonable.

 

[Oasis_S]

You're just not being logical, Golden.

 

[Starcutter]

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't samus a bit smaller in SSB4?

if so, maybe they did it so the size comparrisons would be better for Ridley.

 

[Mr Lange]

You do know Olimar is the size of a quarter, correct? He is literally scaled up to about 100x his original size. Secondly... since you clearly know nothing about Legend of Zelda. Sheik only exists during the OoT timeline. She doesn't exist in Twilight Princess. Secondly, Zelda never uses Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, or Nayru's Love. Another argument could be made that Young Link cannot get Fire Arrows or use the Longshot. How about Ganondorf not using his sword... despite being a swordsmen? This is just in regards to LoZ canon. There are FAR more inconsistencies within all of the other franchises...Mewtwo is a speed based Pokemon. However, he is one of the slowest in the game. No doubt they are small inconsistencies... which is why I don't care. Neither should you.

I did read what you said... basically you are saying that Smash cares about canon without any evidence. Everything points to the contrary. So if you want to give me a few examples?

Everything you just said proves you read none of my posts on the last page. I addressed Olimar. Everything regarding the inclusion of additional abilities or size changes they have done is perfectly believable for the player. That is the point everyone keeps ignoring.

At this point, why should anyone care what you have to say, Mr. "Large", since you clearly don't care what anyone else says?

Trying to pull the other irritating Ridley detraction act of desperation of "why not *insert other large character* too?" just tells me you ran out of anything worth taking seriously.
Why should Kraid be playable?

Let's see, what has Kraid done for the Metroid series....
-appeared in the Metroid games a whopping total of 3 times, one being a remake (though to be fair, he was planned for a 4th in Metroid Prime).
-only served as a stubborn brute as a lines of defense for Mother Brain; nothing else.

By terms of importance to the series, Kraid is pretty damn low on the list. At least he's higher up than Crocomire...

Now, in comparison, what has Ridley done?
-appeared in the Metroid games in some form in all but 3 games.
-serves as the leader of the Space Pirates, and worked for Mother Brain for self-benefit.
-serves as Samus' ****ing origin story and the reason why the series has a plot to begin with.
-is Samus' archnemesis.

....no contest. Ridley is pretty much the most major character of the series outside Samus herself.

How about popularity?
Well, Ridley is pretty much Metroid's most requested/popular character for Smash, ever since pre-Brawl days.
Kraid? Barely any support if any legitimate support whatsoever (as in, not fake support from people saying stupid **** like "if Ridley isn't too big, then Kraid isn't")


That settles it; Kraid is simply not worthy as a playable character.
And note, how I didn't even use size as reasoning. That's because it's **** reasoning from any end of the argument.
Having a Fake Kraid sized Kraid with Real Kraid size mode attacking from the background as a Final Smash would be reasonable.

I've read and considered everything that has been posted so far. Everything. I'm responding to the arguments that hold water, and yours do.
My argument had nothing to do with who is more popular.
So let's have a hypothetical since all you did was try to steer away from my point.
Let us say hypothetically Ridley and Kraid had the same amount of influence on the series. To say basically that their popularity or importance in Metroid doesn't have an impact on whether or not they are included.
The argument is regarding size and canonicity. According to most everyone here, Smash Bros does not regard anything about canon, and does not have any care about sizes.
If this is true, then this immediately suggests Kraid is a viable character.
But for obvious reasons, it would be impossible to make him one without destroying his character.
He might resemble Kraid and do things Kraid does, but there is no way the audience would believe it is Kraid; everything established about Kraid is completely against what it would take to crunch him down into a Smash Bros character.
And if Smash Bros had no concern for canon, why not give Samus's arm blaster to Zelda? Why not make Link's arsenal belong to Pit?
They don't because it would defy the characters they are trying to represent.
Giving Zelda the gem powers is believable. They belong to the Zelda universe and she is versed in magic; it is very easy for the audience to assume she gained these abilities.
To break all of Ridley's abilities and established designs would be a radical extreme. He just wouldn't be Ridley anymore. He has his place, they've made a point of it.

Once again, to those who say "use your imagination" you ignored everything I said before about trying to represent a character properly. They won't just modify characters to radical extremes on a whim.

 

[Starcutter]

but... shrinking Ridley down isn't THAT much of an extreme. plus, most of the cannon contains to each series. it obviously wouldn't work giving sonic's moves to the ice climbers. besides, the metroid cannon is that ridley is bigger than samus. why don't they make ridley bigger than samus, but still small enough to be a playable character. that way, it would work, AND be believable

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Although, the more I think about it, the more I realize how Ridley's size could be a big deal.

 

[LaniusShrike]

As far as Ridley's size goes, the only important thing is that he be noticeably larger than Samus. And that's easy.

 

[Mr Lange]

but... shrinking Ridley down isn't THAT much of an extreme. plus, most of the cannon contains to each series. it obviously wouldn't work giving sonic's moves to the ice climbers. besides, the metroid cannon is that ridley is bigger than samus. why don't they make ridley bigger than samus, but still small enough to be a playable character. that way, it would work, AND be believable

Read what I wrote on the last page.
Forget it I'm just quoting it right here:

Size isn't the only thing that keeps Ridley from being a legitimate character. It is one of the big ones yes, but not the only reason I'm making these points.
Hal, who has been behind the design of Smash, has a certain formula and set of archetypes for characters. Their design plans are seen clearly in Subspace Emissary, which is very similar to Kirby games.
To say Ridley would be playable is like saying Marx from KSS would be playable. You can scrape up a ton of excuses in his favor, but they don't amount to the big picture at all. Marx is a boss character. He's large, his attacks are overwhelming, and he's a static entity that floats around as you whittle down its health. Ridley is very far on the Marx end of the spectrum. Other characters on that end of the spectrum are Master Hand and Tabuu.
Another clear comparison is Rayquaza. In many ways his design as a boss is similar to Ridley, and it is easy to see that Rayquaza would never fit as a Smash character. The means of forcing his design to fit that mold are too absurd to be reasonably done. They'd have to make a million compromises to the point where it's not even Rayquaza anymore. The same principle applies to Ridley.
Ridley's gust attack lasts for seconds and takes up the entire stage. He flies endlessly and attacks by charging the entire breadth and height of the stage. He's clearly in the boss class of character archetypes. To make him fit as a playable character would require compromising all of those design choices that make Ridley who he is. By the time he's been squeezed into a playable character, he just wouldn't be Ridley anymore. The results would be far too awkward. This is not something the devs would steer towards. That's what concerns me about popular demand winning out when it would mean abandoning all of their senses as developers just to make it happen.

 

[Oasis_S]

Once again, to those who say "use your imagination" you ignored everything I said before about trying to represent a character properly. They won't just modify characters to radical extremes on a whim.

And yet you have Ganondorf masquerading as Captain Falcon and slipping on banana peels and no one cares one bit. As I said before, you put way too much stake on trivial things. Don't get so hung up on the small bits.

 

[Starcutter]

yeah, cool, I read that. twice now.

so, anyways, did anyone complain that kirby couldn't fly as much as he wanted despite it being one of his characteristics? not really. how about bowser's fire breathing dying out, it being different then in the games. did anyone care? maybe someone. I did, a little. BUT. it still felt like kirby, and it still felt like bowser. I'm absolutely positive that they can nerf ridley and yet still make it feel like him.

 

[Phaazoid]

I did, read above.
Canon and scale matters, but they were willing to stretch things a bit. A BIT. Only because for a game like Smash, some compromises are necessary. They won't do anything that significantly defies what has been established. They consider canon important because they're celebrating every series. They want the players to feel at home with all of the aspects that make the characters who and what they are.
As I've said above, to distort and compromise Ridley until he's a playable character is stretching him to breaking point. They would have to forcibly create a Smash character while ruining Ridley in the process.

So I'm seeing a pattern here. The argument starts at too big, and when people realize that that is a silly argument, (which honestly, honestly, you only need to watch the intro from melee to understand that it's a silly argument), and then it turns into the "Ridley is too cool" argument. Lange, you said you'd read a lot of this thread. Recall not 10 pages back, literally this exact argument transition happened. I could argue this from the opposite direction - Olimar should not be included, because by making him and his pikmin not microscopic, you disenfranchise pikmin, which is about exploring the world through tiny eyes.

You have to realize that most people seeing ridley about the same size of bowser wouldn't think "oh that's wayyy too small to be cool at all"

If they're a smash fan, and they've played since melee, they'd probably think, oh, like the melee trailer, cool.

If they only came in at brawl, and know Ridley as a (multiple) boss(es), I think more people would think "cool, I get to play as XXX" rather than, "XXX has been so misrepresented"

It's the reason we're supporting Ridley in the first place. The point of smash isn't to put direct cannon ports of characters to fight one another, see Olimar. It's to get caricatures of these fighters on level ground so we can enjoy playing as the characters we love.

And you gotta be careful about using sweeping statements here, because chances are they were used 2-3 pages ago on a repeating cycle of about 5 pages. I'm honestly paraphrasing arguments from others here that I've read, with a bit of my own examples and thoughts mixed in.

Can you now understand why previously people were ignoring you without thought? Even though you may not have seen your exact thoughts argued to begin with, they've boiled down to the same arguments we've seen countless times.

 

[Morbi]

Everything you just said proves you read none of my posts on the last page. I addressed Olimar. Everything regarding the inclusion of additional abilities or size changes they have done is perfectly believable for the player. That is the point everyone keeps ignoring.

Maybe I am ignoring it because you are taking something subjective and trying to turn it objective. Making Olimar from about an inch (rounding up) into about 60 inches (rounding down) is an extreme. To me as a "player" I can't believe that someone the size of a quarter is fighting someone as large as Giga Bowser... however, as a competent human being? I realize that it is a video game and that canon cannot be preserved in a game where they mash franchises together in a battle royale. I think if they shrink Ridley down to about the size he already is in Melee canon that would be fine and believable to the player. Otherwise he would not have been in the cut-scene. Sakurai already acknowledged it would be possible. So what the living hell are you arguing about?

I am not ignoring anything. You are failing to bring up a relevant argument.

1. What are you arguing about? Sakurai already said Ridley was possible and that he would consider it.
2. Why is shrinking down Ridley (to Melee canon) not believable?
3. Why is Olimar being scaled from a quarter to a Mario not extreme?
4. Why is your opinion somehow more valid than mine? (I have given you specific examples. You have not established why canon matters in Smash.)

 

[Mr Lange]

And yet you have Ganondorf masquerading as Captain Falcon and slipping on banana peels and no one cares one bit. As I said before, you put way too much stake on trivial things. Don't get so hung up on the small bits.

That is not the same thing. All of those are cohesive elements that don't interfere with the audience's belief.
If you look at it from an outside perspective with no knowledge, what you just wrote does sound insane. You can't apply that same reasoning here.
But they're working from series and properties that have established rules. We know what to expect and while they may play with it a little they don't stomp it into the dirt. We know who Ganondorf is, we have an idea of his basic size, and we can believe the things he does in the game. If they turned Ganondorf into a ****** and his Side B was to throw daggers, it would ruin his character. This is essentially what they would be doing with Ridley if they tried to make him playable.

yeah, cool, I read that. twice now.

so, anyways, did anyone complain that kirby couldn't fly as much as he wanted despite it being one of his characteristics? not really. how about bowser's fire breathing dying out, it being different then in the games. did anyone care? maybe someone. I did, a little. BUT. it still felt like kirby, and it still felt like bowser. I'm absolutely positive that they can nerf ridley and yet still make it feel like him.

Once again, you're picking out the small yet believable alterations they made to allow the characters to fit in Smash. Play the boss battle against Ridley again in Brawl, and remember that this is only about half of how over the top and ferocious his attacks normally get. They'd have to shrink him to 1/4 size and severely weaken and alter all of his powers. He would be tiny-horribly-altered-sort-of-Ridley, not the Ridley we know.

 

[Phaazoid]

Keep all Kraid discussion in this thread, mate.

http://smashboards.com/threads/kraid-for-smash-4.337053/

Go home Kraid, you're drunk too big

 

[Mr Lange]

So I'm seeing a pattern here. The argument starts at too big, and when people realize that that is a silly argument, (which honestly, honestly, you only need to watch the intro from melee to understand that it's a silly argument), and then it turns into the "Ridley is too cool" argument. Lange, you said you'd read a lot of this thread. Recall not 10 pages back, literally this exact argument transition happened. I could argue this from the opposite direction - Olimar should not be included, because by making him and his pikmin not microscopic, you disenfranchise pikmin, which is about exploring the world through tiny eyes.

You have to realize that most people seeing ridley about the same size of bowser wouldn't think "oh that's wayyy too small to be cool at all"

If they're a smash fan, and they've played since melee, they'd probably think, oh, like the melee trailer, cool.

If they only came in at brawl, and know Ridley as a (multiple) boss(es), I think more people would think "cool, I get to play as XXX" rather than, "XXX has been so misrepresented"

It's the reason we're supporting Ridley in the first place. The point of smash isn't to put direct cannon ports of characters to fight one another, see Olimar. It's to get caricatures of these fighters on level ground so we can enjoy playing as the characters we love.

And you gotta be careful about using sweeping statements here, because chances are they were used 2-3 pages ago on a repeating cycle of about 5 pages. I'm honestly paraphrasing arguments from others here that I've read, with a bit of my own examples and thoughts mixed in.

Can you now understand why previously people were ignoring you without thought? Even though you may not have seen your exact thoughts argued to begin with, they've boiled down to the same arguments we've seen countless times.

Maybe I am ignoring it because you are taking something subjective and trying to turn it objective. Making Olimar from about an inch (rounding up) into about 60 inches (rounding down) is an extreme. To me as a "player" I can't believe that someone the size of a quarter is fighting someone as large as Giga Bowser... however, as a competent human being? I realize that it is a video game and that canon cannot be preserved in a game where they mash franchises together in a battle royale. I think if they shrink Ridley down to about the size he already is in Melee canon that would be fine and believable to the player. Otherwise he would not have been in the cut-scene. Sakurai already acknowledged it would be possible. So what the living hell are you arguing about?

I am not ignoring anything. You are failing to bring up a relevant argument.

1. What are you arguing about? Sakurai already said Ridley was possible and that he would consider it.
2. Why is shrinking down Ridley (to Melee canon) not believable?
3. Why is Olimar being scaled from a quarter to a Mario not extreme?
4. Why is your opinion somehow more valid than mine? (I have given you specific examples. You have not established why canon matters in Smash.)

Neither of you read anything I wrote on the last page. Or much at all apparently. Or you completely failed to understand anything I wrote. If you had, you wouldn't be bringing up most of what you're saying here.
I've addressed Olimar.
I've addressed the Melee cutscene more than once now.
Everything else you've said has been thoroughly covered in most of my writing so far. You are writing as if it sailed completely over your heads.

 

[Morbi]

Neither of you read anything I wrote on the last page. Or much at all apparently. Or you completely failed to understand anything I wrote. If you had, you wouldn't be bringing up most of what you're saying here.

It is funny how "no one is reading" what you have to say. I think it is the opposite to be honest. Otherwise you have a huge problem with your reading comprehension. You would notice I asked you a few questions... mind answering them?

 

[Mr Lange]

It is funny how "no one is reading" what you have to say. I think it is the opposite to be honest. Otherwise you have a huge problem with your reading comprehension. You would notice I asked you a few questions... mind answering them?

MIND ANSWERING THEM!?
I did! This page and last page! VERY THOROUGHLY!
I've also stated countless times that I have read everything and understood everything that has been written by everyone else with every page I've been a part of, and many pages surrounding. Seriously it is like you are all pretending I didn't write anything at all, and just posting the same things like some weird joke.

 

[Phaazoid]

Neither of you read anything I wrote on the last page. Or much at all apparently. Or you completely failed to understand anything I wrote. If you had, you wouldn't be bringing up most of what you're saying here.

Too me, it looked like I quoted your post, and addressed the arguments inside of it. I see you using two main archetypes of arguments, switching when one gets countered, and when both get countered in the same post, you claim no one has read what you've written. I don't understand haters. Getting hit by a logical counterpoint doesn't need to break your beliefs. You don't have to agree with us that Ridley should be in. You can agree to disagree. But you cannot logically argue that he wouldn't 'fit' in smash, without getting talked into the ground, or expecting us to just go, ok, you were right. We've made these rounds for 125 pages this thread, and three threads before this.

I'm leaving this to you guys, I'm too tired for this again > . <

 

[Morbi]

MIND ANSWERING THEM!?
I did! This page and last page! VERY THOROUGHLY!
I've also stated countless times that I have read everything and understood everything that has been written by everyone else with every page I've been a part of, and many pages surrounding. Seriously it is like you are all pretending I didn't write anything at all, and just posting the same things like some weird joke.

No... you have referenced similar subjects. That doesn't answer my questions though. It is fine if you don't want to...

 

[Mr Lange]

Too me, it looked like I quoted your post, and addressed the arguments inside of it. I see you using two main archetypes of arguments, switching when one gets countered, and when both get countered in the same post, you claim no one has read what you've written. I don't understand haters. Getting hit by a logical counterpoint doesn't need to break your beliefs. You don't have to agree with us that Ridley should be in. You can agree to disagree. But you cannot logically argue that he wouldn't 'fit' in smash, without getting talked into the ground, or expecting us to just go, ok, you were right. We've made these rounds for 125 pages this thread, and three threads before this.

Oh lord. That is exactly what everyone else is doing.
This further proves you read nothing. I have stated repeatedly I'm not a hater. I don't hate Ridley. I'm not against Ridley's inclusion in Smash. Quite frankly I would like to see it happen. My arguments are against it because by all accounts it doesn't work.

 

[Starcutter]

if ganondorf is supposed to be all powerful and stuff, like, he single handedly took over the world n'stuff, HOW WOULD HIM SLIPPING ON A BANANA PEEL NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THAT? we defenatly wouldn't believe that he was a dark lord and stuff, we would just think he's a clutz. and your saying it DOESN'T interfere with our beleif? WAT.

and also, the ridley I know is the one in super metroid. that size there in itself isn't THAT much a stretch if it had to he resised. not even half the size.

EDIT: great, i finally put my imput in, and theres been like 5 posts since the one i wanted to respond to.

 

[Morbi]

Oh lord. That is exactly what everyone else is doing.
This further proves you read nothing. I have stated repeatedly I'm not a hater. I don't hate Ridley. I'm not against Ridley's inclusion in Smash. Quite frankly I would like to see it happen. My arguments are against it because by all accounts it doesn't work.

I think this is where the miscommunication is... I don't really care about Ridley either. I am more interested in your obscure perspective on canon.

 

[Mr Lange]

No... you have referenced similar subjects. That doesn't answer my questions though. It is fine if you don't want to...

Fine since you don't want to go to the last page I'll just quote myself.
1. I'm arguing because there is a point to be made in the jungle of irrational warrant for Ridley's inclusion. Sakurai said maybe, not definitely. There have been few good arguments made against Ridley, because everytime someone tries, the boards chase them away with insults and broken logic.
2. and 3. Regarding Olimar and the Melee cutscene in one post:

Olimar works; being scaled to human size is believable. He fits in with the cast. He also maintains body proportions with the others. Characters like Charizard are a stretch, but they'd have to stretch Ridley to breaking point to make him work as a character.
The "Ridley is too big" argument is a valid argument. He's consistently shown to be enormous and his anatomy and powers reflect his size. To scale him down to even Bowser's size would be absurd. It's one thing in a split second cutscene (Melee) but it would look bad seeing it all the time. On top of that, consider the inverse effect. They'd be giving an impression to players that this is Ridley's size compared to most of the characters there, particularly Samus. To play future (or past for that matter) Metroid games and see Ridley the size of a house again is not something they'd want to happen.
Scale is relevant in this series, but with some wiggle room, and as long as it doesn't interfere with the properties of the character. If they didn't give a damn about scale at all and just wanted to ruin all believability, they might as well make playable Andross, Kraid, Marx, Ganon, and Porky's mech. Does that sound like something they'd do? No, because scale matters, and you know it.

4. The argument is to determine if these are opinions and which one is more valid. We won't know unless we try.

 

[Morbi]

Fine since you don't want to go to the last page I'll just quote myself.
1. I'm arguing because there is a point to be made in the jungle of irrational warrant for Ridley's inclusion. Sakurai said maybe, not definitely. There have been few good arguments made against Ridley, because everytime someone tries, the boards chase them away with insults and broken logic.
2. and 3. Regarding Olimar and the Melee cutscene in one post:

4. The argument is to determine if these are opinions and which one is more valid. We won't know unless we try.

So Olimar's scaling is believable because he is humanoid? That is VERY VERY VERY VERY subjective. In fact, one could argue that his whole point is to be small. Similar to how Ridley is supposed to be big (using your logic). Secondly, why does Metroid's "canon" trump Smash "canon". That was my real question.

 

[Mr Lange]

So Olimar's scaling is believable because he is humanoid? That is VERY VERY VERY VERY subjective. In fact, one could argue that his whole point is to be small. Similar to how Ridley is supposed to be big (using your logic). Secondly, why does Metroid's "canon" trump Smash "canon". That was my real question.

No, I did not say that's why he's believable. But despite possibly being subjective, it is something they would unanimously agree upon as acceptable. He fits with the cast at their size. It is easy to imagine without suspending belief. Ridley doesn't fit that way.

Found it, this is the TV Tropes article that somewhat clarifies my point on canon.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA
When you establish something you can work with that without breaking the consistency in the audience's expectation.
But when you breach the core of that consistency, you ruin it. The devs won't do that.

 

[Morbi]

Found it, this is the TV Tropes article that somewhat clarifies my point on canon.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA
When you establish something you can work with that without breaking the consistency in the audience's expectation.
But when you breach the core of that consistency, you ruin it. The devs won't do that.

They have already done that... immensely... in fact, it is the point of the series believe it or not!

 

[Deleted member]

I am pretty much convinced he's nothing but a troll.

 

[Oasis_S]

"No one is reading what I'm saying because if they had then they would all be renouncing their old ways and telling me how right I am."

I'm sorry that you're so disappointed to find out your ideas aren't new or special and that you didn't deserve to be taken as seriously as you thought you were.

 

[Mr Lange]

"No one is reading what I'm saying because if they had then they would all be renouncing their old ways and telling me how right I am."

I'm sorry that you're so disappointed to find out your ideas aren't new or special and that you didn't deserve to be taken as seriously as you thought you were.

This is exactly the kind of stupid **** I was referring to earlier. I'm trying to make a case. My goal isn't trying to be right for the sake of being right, it's for the sake of there being a valid argument to be considered, which nobody seems to want to. A lot of the things I've said have yet to be said, at least as far as I've seen. Or forgotten. In fact everyone forgets what I've written one page later so I wouldn't be surprised.

I am pretty much convinced he's nothing but a troll.

I'm pretty much convinced this board is nothing but trolls.
Many of the responses I've seen so far indicate the logic means nothing to anyone. This is some kind of long running inside joke that "Ridley is obviously playable and nothing anyone says can change that."

 

[Starcutter]

soo.... you are treating a smash like a high end novel?


and you are saying ridley's size is consistent? that's why it will stay that way?



that explains a lot.

 

[Morbi]

This is exactly the kind of stupid **** I was referring to earlier. I'm trying to make a case. My goal isn't trying to be right for the sake of being right, it's for the sake of their being a valid argument to be considered, which nobody seems to want to.

I'm pretty much convinced this board is nothing but trolls.
Many of the responses I've seen so far indicate the logic means nothing to anyone. This is some kind of long running inside joke that "Ridley is obviously playable and nothing anyone says can change that."

Really? You want to argue logic? Nothing you have said is logical. It is fine to upscale Olimar 100x but not fine to shrink Ridley to Smash Canon? Really? Really?

Bottom line is that this game doesn't hold the canon of each franchise. Bottom line is that Sakurai is considering adding one of the MOST requested characters into his game. So there is no dispute. He either will or will not happen depending on whether Sora Ltd. can get him to work. PERIOD.

 

[Mr Lange]

Really? You want to argue logic? Nothing you have said is logical. It is fine to upscale Olimar 100x but not fine to shrink Ridley to Smash Canon? Really? Really?

Bottom line is that this game doesn't hold the canon of each franchise. Bottom line is that Sakurai is considering adding one of the MOST requested characters into his game. So there is no dispute. He either will or will not happen depending on whether Sora Ltd. can get him to work. PERIOD.

I have argued everything as logically as it can be argued. It is difficult to logically place the subjective elements. I know my arguments are valid and I know I have used logic. I was really hoping for a legitimate discussion on these boards. Instead everyone keeps steering around every point I make, or ignoring points I've already made and repeat an argument. Or just throw insults.

soo.... you are treating a smash like a high end novel?


and you are saying ridley's size is consistent? that's why it will stay that way?



that explains a lot.

No. I'm treating it the way a dev team would. They will only do certain things to believably break canon. Some things they will not do for obvious reasons, like completely changing a character's set of abilities permanently in one game.

 

[Morbi]

No. I'm treating it the way a dev team would. They will only do certain things to believably break canon. Some things they will not do for obvious reasons, like completely changing a character's set of abilities permanently in one game.

A dev team who already broke Metroid canon by adding him in an opening cinematic?

 

[Mr Lange]

A dev team who already broke Metroid canon by adding him in an opening cinematic?

Once again, I covered all of this last page (124).
Another example of everything I said being forgotten or ignored.