Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Starcutter]

No. I'm treating it the way a dev team would. They will only do certain things to believably break canon. Some things they will not do for obvious reasons, like completely changing a character's set of abilities permanently in one game.

alright, a couple things.
1.what cannon?
2. if smash, why would they immensly change the size from the melee intro? that seems like a good CANNON size.
3. if metroid, they only need to keep Ridley bigger than Samus.
4. I'm pretty sure they would be able to come up with some moves that wouldn't COMPLETLY, PERMIDENTLY change Ridley's abilities.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Fine since you don't want to go to the last page I'll just quote myself.
1. I'm arguing because there is a point to be made in the jungle of irrational warrant for Ridley's inclusion. Sakurai said maybe, not definitely. There have been few good arguments made against Ridley, because everytime someone tries, the boards chase them away with insults and broken logic.
2. and 3. Regarding Olimar and the Melee cutscene in one post:

4. The argument is to determine if these are opinions and which one is more valid. We won't know unless we try.

If it makes you feel better, I don't think much of the Olimar argument either. Scaling Olimar/ROB/Kirby up to size doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion of Ridley to me.

The important thing is that characters from the same world maintain some semblance of their relative scales. We know Ridley is larger than Samus, and now Samus is in the game, just like how Kirby was in the game, so we knew that King Dedede has to be larger than Kirby's size in Smash.

In terms of cannon, the characters in Smash are trophies of their characters. Cannonicity only matters as far as representing their character... none of the characters completely fit cannon at all, but they (for the most part) do a fine job imitating the characters.

Here's an example of something that I think is important:

Kirby vs. Dedede in Brawl.

Kirby vs. Dedede in Kirby's Squeak Squad

Now, let's edit the image so that Kirby's the same size so we can look at Dedede.

I'll put it plainly. King Dedede is not his cannon size in Smash Bros. They brought him in and made sure he still looked bigger than Kirby, while still shrinking him to what seems to be almost 50% his usual depicted size.

Yet, does anyone complain about him? Nope.

 

[Morbi]

Once again, I covered all of this last page.
Another example of everything I said being forgotten or ignored.

So... Smash needs to consistently keep it's canon (the fans expect it according to you)... so Ridley has to be like Metroid canon to be big and scary (it is part of his character for some reason... just like Olimar being an inch tall isn't really necessary because he looks human). So they broke canon (because they were incompetent)... but to remedy this... they broke canon again by creating an inconsistency and making him a boss. So now they have Metroid canon in Smash by ignoring the Smash canon they already created. This means that Ridley isn't plausible... because Sora Ltd. wouldn't possibly break canon again. They have only acknowledged that they were considering him (They were clearly lying because they don't want to re-break a re-established canon).

Am I on the same page as you? Correct me if this isn't the logic you have been spouting.

 

[Mr Lange]

alright, a couple things.
1.what cannon?
2. if smash, why would they immensly change the size from the melee intro? that seems like a good CANNON size.
3. if metroid, they only need to keep Ridley bigger than Samus.
4. I'm pretty sure they would be able to come up with some moves that wouldn't COMPLETLY, PERMIDENTLY change Ridley's abilities.

1. and 2. Covered on page 124. I'll reiterate that such is not only outdated but a very poor source. In all of the Metroid games, especially more recently, Ridley is 4x larger than Samus.
3. No, it is not that simple. It still comes down to the problem of defying Ridley's character by drastically altering his established size. That is a big part of Ridley's design, it defines who he is. He doesn't just alter size willy nilly like Bowser does.
4. He's known for blasting stage sized gusts of wind for sustained lengths of time, shooting massive fireballs in rapid succession that can easily KO characters, uses the same effect as the Dragoon as a standard freaking attack, and he caused the entire Blue Falcon to sink to the bottom of the stage in the blink of an eye, repeatedly, as another one of his normal attacks. I don't think there's anyway they can believably nerf him. And those are his Smash Bros feats alone.

 

[Oasis_S]

No. I'm treating it the way a dev team would.

"PFFF. Look at this guy. Thinks we can't make a space dragon playable, lol."

 

[kikaru]

"PFFF. Look at this guy. Thinks we can't make a space dragon playable, lol."

He's a space pirate. Have some respect.

 

[Mr Lange]

So... Smash needs to consistently keep it's canon (the fans expect it according to you)... so Ridley has to be like Metroid canon to be big and scary (it is part of his character for some reason... just like Olimar being an inch tall isn't really necessary because he looks human). So they broke canon (because they were incompetent)... but to remedy this... they broke canon again by creating an inconsistency and making him a boss. So now they have Metroid canon in Smash by ignoring the Smash canon they already created. This means that Ridley isn't plausible... because Sora Ltd. wouldn't possibly break canon again. They have only acknowledged that they were considering him (They were clearly lying because they don't want to re-break a re-established canon).

Am I on the same page as you? Correct me if this isn't the logic you have been spouting.

It all comes down to believability. They know what is acceptable to see in game, and some things are blatantly obvious as not acceptable. For that matter, Ridley has already made his appearance in Brawl, they have a clear idea of what he is like and what his place is. It is exactly as I would have guessed.

"PFFF. Look at this guy. Thinks we can't make a space dragon playable, lol."

That isn't how they would approach it. It's a novel thought, but he's a lot more than just a "space dragon". In case you haven't played Metroid, as it seems.

 

[IsmaR]

The only canon that should matter is the one on Samus' arm.

(thank you Mr. Lange for giving us something to do)

 

[Oasis_S]

"I'm in the business of creating worlds from scratch, and a guy whose business is creating ****ty posts on a forum thinks he knows what I can and can't do? Lol."

 

[Reznor]

It all comes down to believability. They know what is acceptable to see in game, and some things are blatantly obvious as not acceptable. For that matter, Ridley has already made his appearance in Brawl, they have a clear idea of what he is like and what his place is. It is exactly as I would have guessed.

they at first said no animal crossing characters because it didn't make sense and now we are getting one
what they think is acceptable changes

 

[Mr Lange]

"I'm in the business of creating worlds from scratch, and a guy whose business is creating ****ty posts on a forum thinks he knows what I can and can't do? Lol."

Look what you're doing. Making these same guesses. Which are very inaccurate from what they would actually do. Metroid and all of the other series they're working with are not being made from scratch. Far from it. That's what makes Smash Bros so appealing in the first place.

The only canon that should matter is the one on Samus' arm.

(thank you Mr. Lange for giving us something to do)

And thank some of you for being reasonable in this discussion.
If Ridley is included, I'm sure you'll all point and laugh and say in your face I told you so. And thus you'll have completely missed my reason for making this discussion. I hope Ridley is in SSB4, but given the facts, and sub-facts, and subjective things, it is not likely.

 

[Starcutter]

1. and 2. Covered on page 124. I'll reiterate that such is not only outdated but a very poor source. In all of the Metroid games, especially more recently, Ridley is 4x larger than Samus.
3. No, it is not that simple. It still comes down to the problem of defying Ridley's character by drastically altering his established size. That is a big part of Ridley's design, it defines who he is. He doesn't just alter size willy nilly like Bowser does.
4. He's known for blasting stage sized gusts of wind for sustained lengths of time, shooting massive fireballs in rapid succession that can easily KO characters, uses the same effect as the Dragoon as a standard freaking attack, and he caused the entire Blue Falcon to sink to the bottom of the stage in the blink of an eye, repeatedly, as another one of his normal attacks. I don't think there's anyway they can believably nerf him. And those are his Smash Bros feats alone.

123- dude, there's been past posts pointing out the size inconsistansies in the metroid series, and I like that kirby one like to point out smash cannon is kinda different. but for number 4, I PREVIOUSLY STATED ON THE LAST PAGE, most characters are nerfed to fit into smash, like kirby's endless flight and bowser's fire. do we care that much? no, not really.

He's a space pirate. Have some respect.

I think he's actually a space wyvern, actually.

 

[Morbi]

It all comes down to believability. They know what is acceptable to see in game, and some things are blatantly obvious as not acceptable. For that matter, Ridley has already made his appearance in Brawl, they have a clear idea of what he is like and what his place is. It is exactly as I would have guessed.

Thank you so much. Now I finally know where you are coming from. I was actually beginning to think that you were stupid. That is all you needed to say my friend. Now I totally get where you are coming from. It is just as simple as my "Smash doesn't preserve canon argument". I sincerely apologize for berating you like that. That is actually one of the best anti-Ridley arguements around. In fact, that was probably the original argument until it devolved into that fallacious size argument (seeing as it is a core fundamental attribute to your argument). Never mind. I labeled you wrong. You are one of the more competent members here. Just next time try to reiterate what you are saying. It doesn't really help to question everyone's reading comprehension.

 

[Mr Lange]

123- dude, there's been past posts pointing out the size inconsistansies in the metroid series, and I like that kirby one like to point out smash cannon is kinda different. but for number 4, I PREVIOUSLY STATED ON THE LAST PAGE, most characters are nerfed to fit into smash, like kirby's endless flight and bowser's fire. do we care that much? no, not really.

And as I said, there's wiggle room with the canon. Not break point room.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Stuff.

So... you're not gonna respond to my post? It had shiny pictures and graphs and everything. Wasn't even the same point that others are making. Tsk, tsk.

Here's another.

In canon, Dedede is a little more than 3x the size of Kirby, but in Brawl he's a little more than 2x the size of Kirby. Dedede's increased size is definitely a defining trait of his, yet they were able to bring him in and shrink him in a way that's completely unobjectionable.

I get that Ridley's role and size has been shown and therefore established in Brawl, but as people like to point out... Ridley had already been shown in Melee. As people also like to point out, characters are constantly "nerfed" when turned into characters.

Heck, in almost every Mario game he can murder even the most powerful creatures within three jumps, but that's not even a move he has in Smash. You don't need a reason why a character changes between appearances... it's just standard game development.

 

[Mr Lange]

So... you're not gonna respond to my post? It had shiny pictures and graphs and everything. Wasn't even the same point that others are making. Tsk, tsk.

I indirectly replied to you through legendofrob's post.

 

[Reznor]

So... you're not gonna respond to my post? It had shiny pictures and graphs and everything. Wasn't even the same point that others are making. Tsk, tsk.

he didn't respond to mine either

 

[Starcutter]

-says he wants ridley.
-doesn't want to belive it's possible, despite all the points given.


ohh, one of those people. I used to be like that. but then I lightened up a bit.

 

[Mr Lange]

Thank you so much. Now I finally know where you are coming from. I was actually beginning to think that you were stupid. That is all you needed to say my friend. Now I totally get where you are coming from. It is just as simple as my "Smash doesn't preserve canon argument". I sincerely apologize for berating you like that. That is actually one of the best anti-Ridley arguements around. In fact, that was probably the original argument until it devolved into that fallacious size argument (seeing as it is a core fundamental attribute to your argument). Never mind. I labeled you wrong. You are one of the more competent members here. Just next time try to reiterate what you are saying. It doesn't really help to question everyone's reading comprehension.

Alright, but you were still thinking I was stupid despite all of the points I had made before hand? I use logic in my arguments. I know what I'm talking about on these subjects. Thank you for this feedback.

-says he wants ridley.
-doesn't want to belive it's possible, despite all the points given.


ohh, one of those people. I used to be like that. but then I lightened up a bit.

Because I want to be sure all of the facts are on the table and all the proverbial numbers are crunched. I'm not going to pool into the fanboy depravity rush and attack all the naysayers just because I want Ridley. I have a good friend who is also a huge Smash and Metroid fan and he's also collected and understanding that Ridley is a huge stretch to make into a character. There's a point to be made here and I think it should be.
I'm also not actively trying not to believe it is possible. I'm more indifferent than anything. I observe and analyze from quiet center. I'd like to try and figure out the truth and do so with healthy discussion.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I kind of don't care about points. I just support characters I like

 

[Morbi]

Alright, but you were still thinking I was stupid despite all of the points I had made before hand? I use logic in my arguments. I know what I'm talking about on these subjects. Thank you for this feedback.

I said I was beginning to, not that I did. I listened to what you had to say and nothing was really making much sense until I realized precisely what you were arguing about. Everything was logical and rational once I knew where you are coming from though. I just think it would help if you responded to everyone who had a question regarding your perspective... even if you have to rephrase a few things again. It takes about as much time as it does to say "I already posted why" anyways. So might as well!

 

[Mr Lange]

I kind of don't care about points. I just support characters I like

I really want Ristar to be in Smash.
I'm not going to go overboard trying to figure out all the ways they might just pack him into the game. I know it is not realistic.

 

[Starcutter]

may I also point out that the dedede and kirby comparrison is bigger than the Ridley and Samus comparrison in super metroid? (wish I had pics but i'm mobile)

seeing as the super metroid design is the popular one used in brawl, why is it THAT big a deal?

 

[Mr Lange]

I said I was beginning to, not that I did. I listened to what you had to say and nothing was really making much sense until I realized precisely what you were arguing about. Everything was logical and rational once I knew where you are coming from though. I just think it would help if you responded to everyone who had a question regarding your perspective... even if you have to rephrase a few things again. It takes about as much time as it does to say "I already posted why" anyways. So might as well!

I can sort of understand that. The points I was making were not meant to be taken in context of some personal paradigm I had. They should be read from a zero point. I wrote unbiased as much as possible.

 

[Morbi]

may I also point out that the dedede and kirby comparrison is bigger than the Ridley and Samus comparrison in super metroid? (wish I had pics but i'm mobile)

seeing as the super metroid design is the popular one used in brawl, why is it THAT big a deal?

They are going to be using the Other M design this time around though.

I really want Ristar to be in Smash.
I'm not going to go overboard trying to figure out all the ways they might just pack him into the game. I know it is not realistic.

Yeah. Everyone has their unrealistic wants. Mine being Lucina and Majora.

 

[Phaazoid]

I had a nice big post in mind but then I realized I was on vacation so I guess I'm just gonna go like a bunch of posts from the last few pages and they'll pretty much have everything I was gonna argue anyways. It's midnight so Imma just be out with Ridley 4 Sm4sh.

I still got nothing against you Lange I just don't think we're quite understanding each other. Mainly because I thought I gave a good counter argument, and now I don't know what the argument is. I hope you find what you came here for.

 

[IsmaR]

And thank some of you for being reasonable in this discussion.
If Ridley is included, I'm sure you'll all point and laugh and say in your face I told you so. And thus you'll have completely missed my reason for making this discussion. I hope Ridley is in SSB4, but given the facts, and sub-facts, and subjective things, it is not likely.

Aside from giving a kiss to every single one of you in here (well mostly the WoR trio/original movement supporters, and maybe Dark Phazon), I actually would rather extend my arm in friendship, and prepare for the future including the influx of "They ruined Ridley!" threads that would abound than show such disgraceful lack humility for even a second.

If it happens, it happens. I'm fairly sure the majority of us would be too happy to bear grudges forever.

 

[Mr Lange]

may I also point out that the dedede and kirby comparrison is bigger than the Ridley and Samus comparrison in super metroid? (wish I had pics but i'm mobile)

seeing as the super metroid design is the popular one used in brawl, why is it THAT big a deal?

Once again, believability.
I didn't bat an eye seeing Dedede that size. It just seems natural until someone points it out. Even then it doesn't rock me much.
And no, the difference between Samus and Ridley throughout the Metroid series is much greater. I can safely say that it would be much more unbelievable to see Ridley shrunk to nearly 1/4 his size.
I can also safely say that the devs would feel the same way, not just from a common sense perspective but given their patterns of design choices throughout history.

 

[Phaazoid]

The only canon that should matter is the one on Samus' arm.

(thank you Mr. Lange for giving us something to do)

Idk if its because it's late or because qdMbp's kirby pictures broke my brain but I can't stop laughing at this

 

[LaniusShrike]

Okay-- while we're on the point, what looks natural to you guys?

How does this relative size look to you guys? The original Super Metroid Ridley size is the one faded into the back.

 

[Starcutter]

They are going to be using the Other M design this time around though.

Is this proven yet for Ridley? no, he's not confirmed. besides, it would break the cannon. [trollface]

Once again, believability.I didn't bat an eye seeing Dedede that size. It just seems natural until someone points it out. Even then it doesn't rock me much.And no, the difference between Samus and Ridley throughout the Metroid series is much greater. I can safely say that it would be much more unbelievable to see Ridley shrunk to nearly 1/4 his size.I can also safely say that the devs would feel the same way, not just from a common sense perspective but given their patterns of design choices throughout history.

Although I do know that there are a lot of people who would get rid of believability for content, I'm not going to go down that route. I think that they could have ridley crouch over most of the time, being both shrunk and condensed into a bit bigger than bowser. I also think it just might be beliveable.

also, you seem to know the devs personally. how are they doing? fine, I hope. :D


EDIT: I like that size. good job doing that!

 

[Oasis_S]

"Looks like a lot of people want to play as this Ridley guy, too bad we can't make him playable since we made him so big in the last game. Man, I really wish we could change things. Would be so cool if we could."

 

[Reznor]

I can also safely say that the devs would feel the same way, not just from a common sense perspective but given their patterns of design choices throughout history.

like I have posted before the devs change their minds some times like with Animal Crossing

 

[Mr Lange]

Although I do know that there are a lot of people who would get rid of believability for content, I'm not going to go down that route. I think that they could have ridley crouch over most of the time, being both shrunk and condensed into a bit bigger than bowser. I also think it just might be beliveable.
also, you seem to know the devs personally. how are they doing? fine, I hope. :D

It is not that I know them personally. It is just common practice, and certain things they do follow, and based on their history of designs, it is possible to extrapolate their reasoning on things to an extent.

"Looks like a lot of people want to play as this Ridley guy, too bad we can't make him playable since we made him so big in the last game. Man, I really wish we could change things. Would be so cool if we could."

"But it would be unorthodox to do so because we'd have to wreck him as a character and completely undermine the design choices of the Metroid devs."

Okay-- while we're on the point, what looks natural to you guys?
View attachment 1273

How does this relative size look to you guys? The original Super Metroid Ridley size is the one faded into the back.

Think he can still ensnare the Blue Falcon and yank it to the ground like it was nothing?
If not, then he's not really Ridley is he.

 

[Morbi]

"But it would be unorthodox to do so because we'd have to wreck him as a character and completely undermine the design choices of the Metroid devs."

"The Metroid devs come first. Lets forget about the consumers and what they want. I am sure the Metroid devs would be soooooooo offended if we made him a practical fighter. It isn't like we didn't chop off his tail and shrink him down in Melee."

 

[Starcutter]

It is not that I know them personally. It is just common practice, and certain things they do follow, and based on their history of designs, it is possible to extrapolate their reasoning on things to an extent.

well, now I'm not sure if you realised I was joking or not.

it is also worth mentioning they have mostly a new team this game. other than sakuri, of course.

 

[Anomilus]

...

I REALLY need to make a drawing comparing SSB4 Bowser to my vision of a playable Ridley. It won't be perfect, and I actually intend to break some rules, but I still believe a Ridley that doesn't completely break suspension of disbelief is both possible and achievable.

I'm a proponent of the idea that a Smash character must create a sense of familiarity, then relation, THEN canonical respect. If the character isn't immediately familiar at first glance, there is an immediate problem with the design. If it is familiar but fails to meet a certain measure of relation in the presence of other familiar elements, then the design needs to be adjusted. Finally, canonical respects can vary, but as long as it isn't waaay out there or completely inaccurate, most people will accept it.

 

[Mr Lange]

"The Metroid devs come first. Lets forget about the consumers and what they want. I am sure the Metroid devs would be soooooooo offended if we made him a practical fighter. It isn't like we didn't chop off his tail and shrink him down in Melee."

Oh yeah that's right can you show me the pics of all the times he was seen in Melee because I must have forgotten.
I only remember him in a split second scene that moved so fast you could barely follow the details unless you analyzed it.
In some ways the Metroid devs do come first. If there was a huge fan demand to give Pikachu a shotgun that replaced all of his special moves, it is not going to happen. They will not do that to Pikachu. Not because the fans demand it. Not because they have the power to do whatever they want with the series. Not because canon is as loose as you want it to be. But because they are sharing Pikachu with us, not alternate-universe-shotgun-toting-Pikachu. There is an established Pikachu and for the most part they're going to stick to it.

minor alterations

lol k

 

[Oasis_S]

Think he can still ensnare the Blue Falcon and yank it to the ground like it was nothing?
If not, then he's not really Ridley is he.

[x] can't do [y], so they're not really [x] are they.

x = EVERY CHARACTER IN SMASH SINCE NONE OF THEM ARE REALLY THAT CHARACTER AND ONLY TRY TO MAINTAIN A RESEMBLANCE TO THEIR "ACTUAL" SELVES.

And it's hilarious that you think Sakurai or the Metroid devs would even care that much. "I'm so personally offended that you included my character and made such minor alterations to him for the sake of making many players worldwide happy. Like really how dare you."

It's almost the whole putting Ridley on a pedestal thing, only you're projecting what you believe onto the devs.

 

[Morbi]

Oh yeah that's right can you show me the pics of all the times he was seen in Melee because I must have forgotten.
I only remember him in a split second scene that moved so fast you could barely follow the details unless you analyzed it.
In some ways the Metroid devs do come first. If there was a huge fan demand to give Pikachu a shotgun that replaced all of his special moves, it is not going to happen. They will not do that to Pikachu. Not because the fans demand it. Not because they have the power to do whatever they want with the series. Not because canon is as loose as you want it to be. But because they are sharing Pikachu with us, not alternate-universe-shotgun-toting-Pikachu. There is an established Pikachu and for the most part they're going to stick to it.

lol k

Holy mother of god... you have no idea how much I want a shotgun wielding Pikachu now... NO IDEA! Maybe... maybe they could bring back Pichu and give him the shotgun?!