Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Xenorange]

City trial would make a great traveling Kirby stage.

 

[LarsINTJ]

I didn't say that. That's not what we were talking about. We were talking about letting non game-designers having opinions on game design.

You can't have a valid opinion on the inner workings of a discipline and its decision-making process if you've never studied it, just a fact.

People who watch lots of movies generally have a better understanding of common movie tropes, how scenes work, and a lot of other things than people who don't. They are allowed to have valid opinions on technicalities of movie making, without being a director.

Those people might have a good idea about what works as a final product, but they have no clue about everything going on behind the scenes.

Avid readers know a lot about the different styles of writing, pacing, diction, and other things that are present in all books. They are allowed to have valid opinions on writing, without being a professional writer.

Again, if you've never actually tried to seriously sit down and write a novel before then you might not realize how hard it is. The reader is only seeing the final product.

And people who play lots of games, especially if they stick to one genre, understand the mechanics of those games sometimes better than developers. Just because you've made a game doesn't put you in a group where you are now allowed to know things about game design.

Process vs. final product applies again.

And speaking of respect for the discipline, someone who claims to be a part of it and then so comes off as so brazenly elitist isn't someone I'd want representing my discipline. It's not attractive.

I'm not claiming to be some amazing game designer, only that I'm aware of what it entails. I encourage people to do some research before making assumptions.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

http://imgur.com/UXWgEhY

Hey guys. I took some time to add some thoughts, why not share it to the internet right? It points out some stuff people tend to miss when argumenting against or for Ridley. This is my contribution to the Space Pirate Leader!

EDIT: Forgot about the mysterious tubes we still dont know anything about. They are now included in the picture!

Don't forget about the music tracks that played

 

[Sigran101]

You can't have a valid opinion on the inner workings of a discipline and its decision-making process if you've never studied it, just a fact.



Those people might have a good idea about what works as a final product, but they have no clue about everything going on behind the scenes.



Again, if you've never actually tried to seriously sit down and write a novel before then you might not realize how hard it is. The reader is only seeing the final product.



Process vs. final product applies again.



I'm not claiming to be some amazing game designer, only that I'm aware of what it entails. I encourage people to do some research before making assumptions.

There's ways to learn about things without actually creating them. I learned how to write a book and what it entails long before I actually became an author.

 

[majora_787]

The issue is common sense and facts kind of override opinions. You're just rejecting them like they're interchangeable things and then being ridiculously smug about it, which is really obnoxious.

 

[Speculator]

No matter what Ridley is in this game they're going to have to make compromises. As a playable character in Smash he has to be scaled down and potentially have different proportions, which is no big deal to some of us as we don't think that's where Ridley's appeal lies. As a boss they have to strip him of his agility and his behaviour in order to make it easy to hit him and become a buff pinata for players on Pyrosphere.

Do they have to strip him of his speed and agility, though? Granted, he probably shouldn't fly fast enough to keep pace with the Falcon Flyer like he did in Brawl, but he's fast in the Metroid games and you can still pelt him with laser beams or what have you. I get what you're saying, but I'm sure you agree that the compromises from 'boss in Metroid to boss in Smash' are minimal compared to 'boss in Metroid to playable in Smash'.

The problem is, you don't KNOW how Sakurai feels about him, he changes his mind all the time, how did Sakurai see Pac-Man? As pizza missing a slice.
-Sakurai himslef stated that SIZE IS NOT CANON
-Proportions are changed all the time to fit in Smash, we have Bonkers in Smash Run that are 2-3 times DDD's size, this is how he looks in a Kirby game

Size and proportions acomodate the character's role, not the opposite
-Flight speed is a very dumb argument, we had Mewtwo, the most powerful pokemon at the time and can now match the Pokemon God himself, speed and power are things that doesn't matter when we also have Sonic AKA the fastest thing alive being outspeeded by Palutena

The core point I was making is that it's important a character properly represents elements from the series they originate from. Kirby's official size is mostly irrelevant because he still acts like he does in the Kirby games. He's also a sphere, and spheres are very good at being rescaled. He doesn't have any lanky limbs that look strange in comparison to his 'usual' size. Mewtwo uses elements from the Pokemon games and his animated appearances. Palutena is a general representative of Kid Icarus Uprising and uses goddess powers from that game. It's not about their power compared to characters from the Mario or Donkey Kong series, it's that no real radical changes needed to be made to accomodate their inclusion. They all translated pretty well into the game.

I don't know how Sakurai feels about Ridley, but I do know that it's been three SSB games in which he's neglected to include Metroid's #2. I do know that he gave Ridley a large role as a boss in Brawl. I do know that Ridley will appear on Pyrosphere in SSB4 and (given the circumstances of his "reveal") I don't think it's outlandish to assume that he'll be a boss, at least in that incarnation. I don't need to see inside Sakurai's head to make educated guesses at how he might view the character.

Because Brawl Ridley did exactly what Ridley did in metroid. And pac-man is going to play just like he does in the arcade.

It's not about exactitude, it's about the feel. Pac-Man looks to be exceptionally reminiscient of the Pac-Man series as a whole, incorporating elements from both the arcade title and later games. The Ridley fights in Brawl felt pretty close to how I would imagine Ridley vs Pikachu & friends might go down. It's not about replicating every single detail of a character, it's about providing a good representation.

 

[majora_787]

We have already seen that Ridley is slow. Very slow and docile in his movements from the footage. Whether he is a boss or not that isn't going to really change.

 

[LarsINTJ]

There's ways to learn about things without actually creating them. I learned how to write a book and what it entails long before I actually became an author.

Yeah, that's called studying the discipline.

 

[SmilingMad]

I wonder how that flight mechanic could be balanced out. In the trailer he is fairly slow, but I feel that it is an acceptable speed for an air-based fighter. Any slower would make his gimmick kind of questionable in usefulness, and if Ridley were to go faster it could potentially be broken. In the Metroid series, Ridley is much faster, but I see potential in a special move or two being turned into a dash-esque attack.

As for staying in mid air...if Ridley were to be able to fly indefinitely he could easily cheese matches by camping below stages after the opponent loses a stock. Having a pre-determined amount of flight time would work out much better in that aspect. Perhaps Ridley could remain aflight (note to self: that's not a word apparently?) after getting hit, only flinching. A certain amount of damage within a timespan could perhaps knock him down, or any damage at all could lower the duration of his flight. I don't know which one is the better option, it's something only playtesting could tell

 

[majora_787]

I imagine Ridley would simply have options for increasing his air time, where he would have more versatile and powerful attack options as opposed to on the ground in which his attacks are more easily avoidable due to noticeable starting lag and ending lag. The slow would probably be a constant. It's possible his up special allows for horizontal flight, and then he can jump out of it and possibly re-initiate it. It would be harder to use than simply being free flight.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I think Ridley would move slowly normally, but his specials would be quite fast. I don't think Ridley will have indefinite flight, but he can probably fly at least 5-7 seconds. And when I say fly, I mean hover. He'd have a hover and multi-jumps at the same time, which is a unique thing, but he'd be slow normally when moving unless he uses specials.

 

[Xenorange]

There are images online of a downscaled Ridley compared to the smash cast right? He fits in perfectly, I don't get why people still make arguments about size after seeing this.

 

[majora_787]

There are images online of a downscaled Ridley compared to the smash cast right? He fits in perfectly, I don't get why people still make arguments about size after seeing this.

He's like two feet taller than Ganondorf. That is literally irreversibly large. Nothing can be done. He is the exception to all game design concepts.

 

[Deleted member]

Seriously, there is no argument agaisnt Ridley that works, because we have characters that have been taken out characteristics from them for them to be playable, Sonic should be at the speed of sound, Olimar shouldn't be able to fight by himself or even punch, Ganondorf and Mewtwo should be all powerful, etc etc

 

[Steelia]

I wonder how that flight mechanic could be balanced out. In the trailer he is fairly slow, but I feel that it is an acceptable speed for an air-based fighter.

I've been wondering about this... I always thought Ridley was flying slowly across the stage intentionally, where you're barely tilting the control stick in a direction. It definitely didn't look like a dash, rather what could be one of his slower "walking" animations. There are 3 kinds of walking animations, easily could've been any one of those. Pikachu was doing his fastest walking animation in that same clip.

 

[Phaazoid]

You can't have a valid opinion on the inner workings of a discipline and its decision-making process if you've never studied it, just a fact.

Having thousands of hours of experience with a discipline is akin to studying it.

Those people might have a good idea about what works as a final product, but they have no clue about everything going on behind the scenes.



Again, if you've never actually tried to seriously sit down and write a novel before then you might not realize how hard it is. The reader is only seeing the final product.



Process vs. final product applies again.

I'm not saying that people who experience a media are as competent in creating it as the people creating said medium. This is a different point than what I'm trying to argue. I agree with the point that someone who has read a lot of books may very well have no idea of the amount of work it takes to sit down and write a book, nor someone who plays games all day understand the amount of hours that go into making a game.

Understanding the effort it requires =/= understanding portions of the underlying mechanics.

I am saying people who have done these things probably understand a thing or two about some of the cogs in the machine. I've played a ton of Fire Emblem games. I've put lots of hours into those games. I understand, only from having played different versions of Fire Emblem, how they give characters stats when they level up in different games. I've learned this through playing the game. I have an opinion on this fact. My opinion is that I don't like how in older Fire Emblem games, maxing stats requires restarting your game multiple times every level up until the rng does what you want. This is not fun. That is a valid opinion and I acquired it solely through playing games.

I'm not claiming to be some amazing game designer, only that I'm aware of what it entails. I encourage people to do some research before making assumptions.

No, but you implied that because you were a game designer, you were allowed to have opinions on game design and others weren't. That is false.

I agree that people who study it can have opinions that relate closer to what's important about an argument relating to game design. But that's different from what I'm arguing.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Do they have to strip him of his speed and agility, though? Granted, he probably shouldn't fly fast enough to keep pace with the Falcon Flyer like he did in Brawl, but he's fast in the Metroid games and you can still pelt him with laser beams or what have you. I get what you're saying, but I'm sure you agree that the compromises from 'boss in Metroid to boss in Smash' are minimal compared to 'boss in Metroid to playable in Smash'

I actually don't, because the whole thing is based on his behaviour, and I believe Ridley can act more flexible and randomly as a character instead of being a boss with queued attacks and set flight patterns. The name of the role doesn't necessarily determine his nature because a boss in Metroid is vastly different from a boss in Smash Bros.

When I think of a Ridley boss battle I think of this:

His movements and attacks are not in a set pattern at all, he acts solely on a rather clever AI, and it's exactly the same case with his Zero Mission and Fusion battles too, they're different every single time. His Prime battles are divided into phases, but the grounded Ridley fights also mix up the attack patterns and are constantly moving. The Prime 3 tunnel fight is pretty heavily scripted though, and I never really liked that either.

A fight like this can't make it into Smash Bros, you can see that with the Yellow Devil, Master Hand and every single Brawl boss, including Ridley and Meta Ridley who were both rather disgraceful to Ridley's nature, especially the first boss battle. In order for players to keep up with him and hit him he has to act on an action-to-action basis, Smash is already chaotic as a 4 player FFA, adding in an AI-based boss will make it all the more confusing, not to mention Smash's engine and animation structure is based on set actions. His actions can be mixed up somewhat, but at the end of the day it'll always follow queued actions like move->stop->fireballs->stop->move->stop->tail attack->stop->retreat/get killed. In my opinion it fits Ridley much better to at least have the potential to live up to his random nature under the command of a player or a CPU than to have him be a flying pinata that players fight over to get a killing blow on while he follows his checklist on what to do.

As previously stated just because the role is called a boss doesn't mean it fits Ridley better because it doesn't mean the same thing in Smash and Metroid. Because of this I'd also rather have no Ridley than boss Ridley. No matter what Ridley is never going to be exactly what he is in Metroid, so striving for that isn't ideal.

 

[Lolo Lolo]

well guys, while we're waiting for Ridley's reveal let's enjoy this:
http://projectcrusade.forumotion.com/t3183-09-dojo-update-11-vii-2014#85112

 

[The Nerd]

You can't have a valid opinion on the inner workings of a discipline and its decision-making process if you've never studied it, just a fact.

You can study how something works without knowing how it was made. For example, in Cryptography many people have very valid opinions on the power and ability of cryptographic ciphers without having to know how the original creator made the cipher.

I can understand that making a fun playable Ridley could be a challenge, and that you would be able to be more faithful to him if you were to make him a boss, but many other characters would also feel more faithful as a boss. Would you use this argument to claim Ganondorf should be a boss? His Smash incarnation has very little to do with his actual in game appearances, where he IS a boss.

I also don't understand why people feel the need to scale him down to be super small. Being large in a fighting game in and of itself is a flaw not an advantage; you become much too easy to hit. We've already seen in trailers points where Little Mac uses his smaller size to his advantage. Typically being bigger comes with better reach, but projectile characters like Megaman and sword characters like Marth make this *really* pointless. Honestly the only way I could see to balance him if he was larger than the rest of the cast is to give him a decent bit of speed to handle projectile spammers. He's going to be insanely combo-able and have poor defensive options no matter what, so making him a sort of kamikaze-aggression character strikes me as a halfway decent idea.

I also see him being quite light. Many characters in Brawl have amazing recoveries but are so light that they die before it becomes incredibly relevant; I can see this being the case with Ridley as well. Perhaps give him a huge amount of mid air jumps/glides/hovers/whatever but give him no special recovery move, so if you can screw him over hard enough repeatedly in his home he just loses.

I think based on this analysis that it would be perfectly possible to make a Ridley faithful *enough* to the Metroid franchise. Ultimately a fast, aggressive character archetype has worked before and I do not see how increasing the size of that character helps it. His attack range increase may help somewhat, but I do not think it will be a significant amount.

 

[SmilingMad]

I think Ridley would move slowly normally, but his specials would be quite fast. I don't think Ridley will have indefinite flight, but he can probably fly at least 5-7 seconds. And when I say fly, I mean hover. He'd have a hover and multi-jumps at the same time, which is a unique thing, but he'd be slow normally when moving unless he uses specials.

I don't know about the multi-jumps. Being able to hover would make his recovery good enough as is. I mean, yes, it's got wings and things with wings (or gas bladders) get to jump multiple times, but it'd give him more aerial freedom than it seems fair. IF he could have 'flight' and multi-jumps, a jump should come at the cost of flight time.

I've been wondering about this... I always thought Ridley was flying slowly across the stage intentionally, where you're barely tilting the control stick in a direction. It definitely didn't look like a dash, rather what could be one of his slower "walking" animations. There are 3 kinds of walking animations, easily could've been any one of those. Pikachu was doing his fastest slow-walking animation in that same clip.

That's a possibility too, but Ridley wasn't exactly that slow. What I did find interesting is that he seems to have a 'braking' animation. You know, when you dash, and then you stop dashing your character does this thingy? Ridley kind of did that in mid air, lurching backward a little to stop his forward motion. It does seem to be more of an aesthetic thing, as Ridley just stopped instead of grinding to a halt as happens with characters dashing.

 

[BlueBubbee]

Spoiler

How much of an impact did she have? She was the main villain of the first game which was what MOST people played of Kid Icarus before Uprising, and was the most consistent villain of Uprising for the first third of it EVEN if she was shown up.
And sure Hades overshadowed Medusa in one game. But just recently?
- Ridley has been overshadowed in MOST games he is in by a different villain.
- Ganon in the last TWO games was overshadowed by Demise, and even more humiliatingly by Yuga.
- K. Rool has been overshadowed by Tiki Tong and Lord Fredrick who have outright replaced him through DKCR.
- How about the various games where BOWSER is overshadowed by the likes of Smithy, the X-Nauts, Count Bleck, Fawful, or whatever else in the two RPG series?
And you know as well as I do why Greninja, Robin, and Lucina are not good arguments. Fire Emblem has no unified continuity. They have no real choice but to use the newest games, because continuities generally end after one or two games with Archanea being the only exception. Pokemon also generally get in off new games alone, and Pokemon are always going to EXIST in the next pokemon game. That is literally always a guarantee.
As it sits now, Medusa is the villain of one game and the villain for the first third of another. Hades is the "highest" villain for a small fraction of the one newest game. As it sits now his resume just isn't great.
And Medusa is really only as much of a bad idea as Palutena would be.
I'm aware you're not hating on Medusa, but there really aren't BETTER choices with Palutena and Pit in the game, and Sakurai most definitely could exhibit the will to give us three Kid Icarus characters.
One new game overshadowing the series antagonist with a new one doesn't mean much. If Kid Icarus gets a new game where Hades is the main villain again, we can talk otherwise. Just how I see it.

Good points. I see exactly where you're coming from. (You aren't late by any means, the thread just goes quickly). I agree with you on all of it, I never really disagreed with you at all during this conversation. The only thing I don't see happening is Kid Icarus getting a third rep. A series with one rep jumping to three without previous plans of another seems a bit outrageous.

As for Bowser in the RPG's, he's horrible in those games, even though I love them. In the Inside Story, he was considered the hero for the second half.

As for Greninja, I know, the post felt empty without me saying something on it. He'll have a second game by the time the Wii U Smash is out. As for Fire Emblem, not a big fan of the series, I've never played any of the games (though I've heard Awakening is good, so I may pick that up), so I have no idea about the continuity.

For the point of "Medusa is as bad as Palutena would be", I couldn't agree more. But I saw Palutena as a bad choice for Smash. Sure, she was a main character in the games, but I didn't really see need for a second KI rep. But now that there's been more trailers on Palutena, I'm interested on how she plays. So I wouldn't be against Medusa, she's a great choice. It's that she's

Spoiler

Too Big

jk

All in all, reading through your points, you've changed my view on Medusa as a character in Smash since the beginning of this conversation. I don't see her as a bad choice anymore. I'm just afraid that the reps would get too repetitive now. Two goddesses with staffs? That's the main reason that Sakurai cut Chrom (via an interview), because four swordsmen would get to repetitive, so he had Robin because he can do magic. In the end, I'm only against Hades and Dark Pit as characters for Smash now. So thank you for the good points.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I don't know about the multi-jumps. Being able to hover would make his recovery good enough as is. I mean, yes, it's got wings and things with wings (or gas bladders) get to jump multiple times, but it'd give him more aerial freedom than it seems fair. IF he could have 'flight' and multi-jumps, a jump should come at the cost of flight time.


That's a possibility too, but Ridley wasn't exactly that slow. What I did find interesting is that he seems to have a 'braking' animation. You know, when you dash, and then you stop dashing your character does this thingy? Ridley kind of did that in mid air, lurching backward a little to stop his forward motion. It does seem to be more of an aesthetic thing, as Ridley just stopped instead of grinding to a halt as happens with characters dashing.

Well, in that case, Ridley should have much higher flight time. Maybe about 20 total seconds of flight and 5 jumps, so he could stay hovering for a long time at a certain height, but when he jumps he loses 3 seconds off his flight time.

 

[majora_787]

I've been wondering about this... I always thought Ridley was flying slowly across the stage intentionally, where you're barely tilting the control stick in a direction. It definitely didn't look like a dash, rather what could be one of his slower "walking" animations. There are 3 kinds of walking animations, easily could've been any one of those. Pikachu was doing his fastest walking animation in that same clip.

Pikachu actually wasn't. I have tested this repeatedly. Which is why I call it his "half walk", because Pikachu is moving at about the speed of tilting the control stick halfway. Pikachu's movement animations are very distinguishable thankfully.

His running and "full walking" speeds involve Pikachu deliberately moving on all four legs. His "half walking" speed is that awkward hop we see going on in the direct. His "slow walking" is the two-legged waddle.

 

[BlueBubbee]

There are images online of a downscaled Ridley compared to the smash cast right? He fits in perfectly, I don't get why people still make arguments about size after seeing this.

Two words:

Internet Meme

 

[hotcrumpets]

Another problem lies in the fact that now Zero Suit Samus is her own character, Metroid just got another rep. If Ridley were added, that would mean THREE character slots.


His aerials and Smash attacks use the Levin Sword until it breaks.

Fire emblem has 4 slots, they really mean nothing

 

[ddd87]

By extension, anyone who hasnt made a game should not be able to decide what can or cannot be done on someone else's game. But that hasnt stopped detractors hasnt it?

And whats the threshold? If I made a game with an RPG maker then I can talk? Why not go all the way and not allow people who hasnt worked on one of the four Smash Bros games? Project M doesnt count, only having worked under the specific conditions of Sakurai's direction. Im pretty sure nobody here qualifies. You cant decide what would work and what wouldnt, you cant decide that some characters can be resized while others cant, you cant say that a character is harder than others to make, and so on.

 

[Deleted member]

The progression of this thread since Monday:

Monday Morning, Robin's Reveal and Tuesday:

Everything is happy! We're all just dandy in here.

The last 16 hours:

Why does this keep happening??? D:

Can't we all just debate about Ridley's chances in a neutral manner without all of this condescension and bigotry for once in our lives?

Sheesh people...

 

[majora_787]

Roster slots are like monopoly money. It exists, and you can SAY it's money, but you'll never actually be able to buy anything with it. Because it doesn't have actual value.

EDIT: No. It is INTEGRAL that lars be as condescending as humanly possible. Because having a normal conversation like a normal person with ANY level of mutual respect is just absurd.

 

[Reila]

Lol I can't keep with this thread. I posted something one hour ago and ONE HUNDRED posts were made since then.

 

[Phaazoid]

Roster slots are like monopoly money. It exists, and you can SAY it's money, but you'll never actually be able to buy anything with it. Because it doesn't have actual value.

They have value to me ;(

Lol I can't keep with this thread. I posted something one hour ago and ONE HUNDRED posts were made since then.

And there's 60 people reading the thread right now, too @.@

33 of those have accounts.

If we assume only half of the people who are watching with accounts are posting, then each would have only had to have made 6 posts for it to hit 100 in an hour.

basically Ridley is too big many

 

[False Sense]

Roster slots are like monopoly money. It exists, and you can SAY it's money, but you'll never actually be able to buy anything with it. Because it doesn't have actual value.

EDIT: No. It is INTEGRAL that lars be as condescending as humanly possible. Because having a normal conversation like a normal person with ANY level of mutual respect is just absurd.

Doesn't the latest information on Lucina show that Sakurai doesn't care about slots?

 

[LarsINTJ]

Seriously, there is no argument agaisnt Ridley that works, because we have characters that have been taken out characteristics from them for them to be playable, Sonic should be at the speed of sound, Olimar shouldn't be able to fight by himself or even punch, Ganondorf and Mewtwo should be all powerful, etc etc

(Ridley fandom unite! Magically put a perfect playable Ridley into the game through the mystical energies of liking each other's posts and hating the detractors!)

You guys continue to act as if size is a long-resolved issue just because you think some fan renders look nice. Size is only the root of the problem. Try drafting a design for Ridley which is consistent with his canon appearances:

- Larger than all the other fighters
- Slow, yet capable of swift sudden movements and mid-air maneuvers
- Heavy
- Most attacks hit hard
- Large attack range (tail, fireballs, general size)
- Wing-based recovery

Yeah, that will work...
How much are you willing to change before it's no longer Ridley?

Also, Phaazoid, we're obviously using different definitions in our language, so it would be pretty pointless to continue arguing about nothing... although the same thing could be said about this entire thread.

 

[Reila]

They have value to me ;(


And there's 60 people reading the thread right now, too @.@

33 of those have accounts.

If we assume only half of the people who are watching with accounts are posting, then each would have only had to have made 6 posts for it to hit 100 in an hour.

basically Ridley is too big many

Yeah, this thread was always one of the most popular around here, but it seems after Robin and Lucina's reveal it got even more posters. I wonder if its because the Gematsu leak lost a lot of its credibility and people (detractors) are finally realizing Ridley is most likely playable in the game?

 

[Mansana]

@Con0rrrr (Sorry if I didn't make fancy editing, I'm not good at that stuff)

Edit: Enjoy the conspiracy theory with the following music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiX2FJbgD8

Pikachu Theory:

I think there are many pictures that seem way to over board to be plain coincidental pictures. Sakurai works with the illuminati and masons. We should know this, since he likes to troll. He secretly sends messages and teases us about upcoming new comers, but it's not that simple to uncover with out making connections.

In Pikachu's and Samus' profiles, each character has at least one in-game screen shot with each other in it:

The connection between these two characters are much deeper than you may think. Going through Super Smash Bros. Brawl's story mode "Subspace Emisssary", Samus is paired with Pikachu and they both eventually have to team up and fight Ridley.

According to a Nintendo Direct when Sakurai mentions that other bosses make appearances in other stages, Pikachu can be seen being followed by a Ridley's shadow:

But why use Pikachu? Do you think its a coincidence? I think not. Sakurai could easily be referencing to SSBB and the Rivalry match that PIkachu and Samus had with Ridley during Subspace Emissary. Pikachu saved Samus from Ridley... Seems very suspicious that Sakurai would particularly use Pikachu in that instance of narration. Although this doesn't make any explicit evidence that Ridley will be playable, it should give you second guesses about what Sakurai wants to tell us. We know for sure that Ridley will play a big role in this game in some fashion.​

 

[majora_787]

"Larger than all other fighters"? Ridley is one of the smaller bosses in the Metroid series. And size never HAS been an issue. It was ALWAYS resolved by common sense, no matter how much you whine about it. It is literally common sense in game design that things are CHANGED to accommodate the ROLE they are FILLING. That is not going to change now just because it's Ridley, even though it works for EVERY OTHER CHARACTER.

Ridley never was and never will be the ONLY CHARACTER IN SMASH who needs to actually be 100% consistent with canon. NEVER. Not just because you said it with a condescending attitude, and not because people *THINK* that.

And just because he's not 50 feet tall, insanely fast, and full of 1HKO attacks does not mean he's not Ridley. It means they tweaked Ridley for playability. Characters change and they remain themselves. It happens *ALL THE TIME*.

I swear to god, the top thing that makes people seem mind-numbingly stupid is acting like Ridley is THE EXCEPTION to the most common sense things.

I don't get paid enough for this crap. *ANYWAY*. Yes. Sakurai has made it clear he doesn't care much about specific "slot numbers". That was my point. I was just making a dumb analogy about monopoly money.

 

[SmilingMad]

(Ridley fandom unite! Magically put a perfect playable Ridley into the game through the mystical energies of liking each other's posts and hating the detractors!)

You guys continue to act as if size is a long-resolved issue just because you think some fan renders look nice. Size is only the root of the problem. Try drafting a design for Ridley which is consistent with his canon appearances:

- Larger than all the other fighters
- Slow, yet capable of swift sudden movements and mid-air maneuvers
- Heavy
- Most attacks hit hard
- Large attack range (tail, fireballs, general size)
- Wing-based recovery

Yeah, that will work...
How much are you willing to change before it's no longer Ridley?

Also, Phaazoid, we're obviously using different definitions in our language, so it would be pretty pointless to continue arguing about nothing... although the same thing could be said about this entire thread.

Lars has a point here. The ideal Ridley would fall under the Lightning Bruiser trope, but is that realistically attainable?

 

[Phaazoid]

Also, Phaazoid, we're obviously using different definitions in our language, so it would be pretty pointless to continue arguing about nothing... although the same thing could be said about this entire thread.

I'm just asking you to stop talking down to people in this thread like idiot children. I've clearly demonstrated how condescending several of you posts have been and to me this sounds like you're just unwilling to admit it.

You're taking the over-excitedness of some fans here who are mistakenly assuming Ridley is 100% confirmed as an excuse to treat them as dribbling idiots. You take small arguments that have some value to Ridley's non-playability, and blow them out of proportion, often in a condescending and rude fashion. You claim to be a game designer to give your opinion more merit, but abuse that to the point of saying that anyone who isn't a game designer cannot have opinions on the subject.

So no, I don't think we're "using different definitions in our language", a deflecting statement if I've ever seen one. I think at this point you are arguing for arguing's sake, and if you continue to post in such an antagonizing manner I'm going to ignore your posts and report them.

 

[LarsINTJ]

"Larger than all other fighters"? Ridley is one of the smaller bosses in the Metroid series. And size never HAS been an issue. It was ALWAYS resolved by common sense, no matter how much you whine about it. It is literally common sense in game design that things are CHANGED to accommodate the ROLE they are FILLING. That is not going to change now just because it's Ridley, even though it works for EVERY OTHER CHARACTER.

Ridley never was and never will be the ONLY CHARACTER IN SMASH who needs to actually be 100% consistent with canon. NEVER. Not just because you said it with a condescending attitude, and not because people *THINK* that.

And just because he's not 50 feet tall, insanely fast, and full of 1HKO attacks does not mean he's not Ridley. It means they tweaked Ridley for playability. Characters change and they remain themselves. It happens *ALL THE TIME*.

I swear to god, the top thing that makes people seem mind-numbingly stupid is acting like Ridley is THE EXCEPTION to the most common sense things.

I don't get paid enough for this crap. *ANYWAY*. Yes. Sakurai has made it clear he doesn't care much about specific "slot numbers". That was my point. I was just making a dumb analogy about monopoly money.

You might want to fully read and understand what somebody is saying before launching into a fanboy-rant.

 

[Ridles the Space Pirate]

I just had a good idea for Ridley's gimmick!
How about a flight meter? It is displayed above the players percentage like little macs power meter and works similarly.
The bar will decrease while Ridley keeps himself in the air and builds up while he is grounded, but will also gain meter when Ridley lands attacks from the sky.

 

[Nietona]

I think the issue of people here telling detractors to simply "go away" despite it being a Ridley discussion thread isn't just a matter of them not wanting to see people with differing opinions. If you know your opinion on the boss and you know your opinion isn't going to change, coming in here to argue isn't so much meaningful as it is a pointless conflict. Sure, it keeps the thread alive, but if neither side is going to budge, it's just an unnecessary quarrel that really needn't have happened and just lowers morale.

Of course, I know that there are points that are a possibility in detractor favour, such as Sakurai potentially not seeing Metroid as warranting another rep. I'm grateful when detractors do come in because it feels like it brings me back down to reality and forces me to remember that although the optimism in this thread is warranted, and it definitely is because Ridley does have a lot going for him this time around, there does remain the chance that we might be seeing Stage Hazard Ridley in the final product, even if it's illogical that Ridley would be a Stage Hazard after all this teasing.

However, although I may be happy that detractors come in from time to time, that doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people just want to believe in Ridley in peace, and it goes without saying that most people in this thread aren't going to be swayed to believe Ridley shouldn't be in the game as a playable character. And it's only like, a handful of detractors that don't just come in with the Shokio-spawned "too big" argument that does literally nothing than just cause unnecessary squabbles between supporters hammering the detractor for believing this.

Sure, people should be less instantly-hostile, but equally, detractors should be aware and should understand that they're not convincing anyone and that coming in here with the intention of "getting people to come to their senses" or whatever reason detractors appear is a fool's errand. There are detractors that come in and make good points, and one example would be the famous Jerry Applesauce that pops in sometimes, not even always detracting as much as adding to the conversation. But for every one of those, there are about five detractors that say nothing new and ignore everything we say in retaliation in order to believe that they are right.

And if anyone's going to come in here with an attitude like that (and seriously, a lot of people do, although we were having an unusual break from detractors until Lars showed up), it's just going to raise tensions and eventually make fans instantly defensive when there's a detractor because they're sick of so many people pointlessly coming in like that. It also doesn't help that Ridley is the one most controversial character in regards to inclusion in Smash. To give an example, people were hostile towards Jerry Applesauce when he arrived, as well, because they were used to detractors that couldn't be reasoned or talked with.

Does that make the hostility right? No. But does it make it a wise choice to come in when you have an opinion that can't be changed to argue against people that have opinions that can't be changed? Absolutely not, because it just makes things worse and keeps the hostility around for the next person, who may just have heard an argument from nowhere and say something like "he's too big, isn't he?" and could just not know much regarding the matter, but the fact that they said something like that leads to them being jumped on and brutally clawed to pieces.

I'm not saying that detractors shouldn't exist, but you can't blame someone for not wanting any of them to be here when they're used to pointless conflicts that change nothing. They don't want to take the risk of it being another of those.