The Removal of Dr. Mario

[The Basement Dweller]

Off Doc he is not neccasary.

 

[zombie7775]

I think they should take him out as a seperate character but then make him a alternate costume for Mario.

 

[The Basement Dweller]

They just need his original white outfit if they do they don't need 9 costumes for Mario.

 

[zombie7775]

They just need his original white outfit if they do they don't need 9 costumes for Mario.

well I thought that was infered. 1 Dr. Mario outfit.

 

[The Basement Dweller]

You should be more specific in Melee he does have 5 outfits.

 

[Ding]

I can't believe this. This many of you honestly can't see the differences between Dr. Mario and Mario? This angers me. You guys must completely suck at the game. I understand a lot of you want him removed based on all kinds of reasons, and you may know all the differences, but this is addressed to the ones that can't see a difference between Dr. Mario and Mario.
Here, let me list a few:

Mario is faster and weaker than Dr. Mario.
Forward Aerial move for Mario is a Spike(Meteor Smash), and just a really powerful move for Dr. Mario.
Mario's Fireballs are weaker than Dr. Mario's pills, and Dr. Mario's pills are bouncier, which makes them easier to bounce off of objects and angles to throw them at weird angles to trip up your opponent.
Dr. Mario's Up+B has a much more powerful hit at the end of the move, and can(rarely) be used to kill people. It has a longer delay, but the extra kick at the end of the move usually makes it worthwhile.
Forward Smash for Dr. Mario has less range, but does significantly more kick and damage.
Backwards aerial for Dr. Mario does extra kick and damage, with slightly more delay.
Grabs for Dr. Mario generally do more damage, and throw the enemy about as far.

Most importantly for me, though, is how much better Dr. Mario flows into combos. Mario is erratic with his speed, but Dr. Mario is much easier to place while trying to juggle an enemy. As a general rule, after one learns to L-Cancel and Tek everything properly, Dr. Mario's extra delays don't nearly take enough away from the character to outweigh the extra damage Dr. Mario does. Now, that last statement is personal preference, and there are people that prefer Mario. But Dr. Mario is rated higher on the tier, I believe, and is used much more in tournaments than Mario. To an unskilled player, yeah, he may look identical to Mario, but there are several differences. Check out the Overdose Doc Combo video for a perfect example of how you can use Doc's slower falling to "flow" much easier into moves in the air, letting you edge hog much easier.

Personally, I VERY seriously doubt ANY characters will be dropped in Brawl. I haven't kept up with the news, so if there's been something confirmed, then whatever, but I seriously doubt they wouldn't go ahead and put all the characters back in. If Doc is taken out, I would be seriously upset, and several other people would be too. That would be like taking wavedashing out, or mid-air dodging... there's absolutely NO point to it, since ADDING characters can't take anything away from the game, and it would only make people angry.

 

[zombie7775]

Ok I know there are different, but there attacks are just variations of the other ones attacks. They also said that some characters will be dropped. No matter what character is removed or changed someone is going to be mad. Also how many people will honestly refuse to buy brawl if their favorite character is changed or removed. I will be mad if Roy is removed but Im still going to buy brawl. Im just going to play as a different character.

 

[Super_Cool]

I can't believe this. This many of you honestly can't see the differences between Dr. Mario and Mario? This angers me. You guys must completely suck at the game. I understand a lot of you want him removed based on all kinds of reasons, and you may know all the differences, but this is addressed to the ones that can't see a difference between Dr. Mario and Mario.
Here, let me list a few:

Mario is faster and weaker than Dr. Mario.
Forward Aerial move for Mario is a Spike(Meteor Smash), and just a really powerful move for Dr. Mario.
Mario's Fireballs are weaker than Dr. Mario's pills, and Dr. Mario's pills are bouncier, which makes them easier to bounce off of objects and angles to throw them at weird angles to trip up your opponent.
Dr. Mario's Up+B has a much more powerful hit at the end of the move, and can(rarely) be used to kill people. It has a longer delay, but the extra kick at the end of the move usually makes it worthwhile.
Forward Smash for Dr. Mario has less range, but does significantly more kick and damage.
Backwards aerial for Dr. Mario does extra kick and damage, with slightly more delay.
Grabs for Dr. Mario generally do more damage, and throw the enemy about as far.

Most importantly for me, though, is how much better Dr. Mario flows into combos. Mario is erratic with his speed, but Dr. Mario is much easier to place while trying to juggle an enemy. As a general rule, after one learns to L-Cancel and Tek everything properly, Dr. Mario's extra delays don't nearly take enough away from the character to outweigh the extra damage Dr. Mario does. Now, that last statement is personal preference, and there are people that prefer Mario. But Dr. Mario is rated higher on the tier, I believe, and is used much more in tournaments than Mario. To an unskilled player, yeah, he may look identical to Mario, but there are several differences. Check out the Overdose Doc Combo video for a perfect example of how you can use Doc's slower falling to "flow" much easier into moves in the air, letting you edge hog much easier.

Personally, I VERY seriously doubt ANY characters will be dropped in Brawl. I haven't kept up with the news, so if there's been something confirmed, then whatever, but I seriously doubt they wouldn't go ahead and put all the characters back in. If Doc is taken out, I would be seriously upset, and several other people would be too. That would be like taking wavedashing out, or mid-air dodging... there's absolutely NO point to it, since ADDING characters can't take anything away from the game, and it would only make people angry.

We know about the stat changes. They are so miniscule. Dr. Mario needs to go.

And yes, it's confirmed that some characters are leaving.

 

[zombie7775]

We know about the stat changes. They are so miniscule. Dr. Mario needs to go.

And yes, it's confirmed that some characters are leaving.

Yes at least Marth and Roy's stats are opposites.

 

[Kashakunaki]

First off, I said I had no facts supporting my thoughts on it's sales.

Never said you did. I told you what the facts were.

Second, I really think it's a fact that Mario has no place in the Puzzle genre.

Let's play point out the contradiction. You think it's a fact? I think it's still your opinion.

Smash is about All-Star characters. Some may say that Doc's game was good, was it really deserve to stand with Link, Kirby, and Samus? Not many can, and Doc is not one of the few.

I can agree with you. But a lot of things look relatively weak in comparison to those. However, if you want to look at it like that, Dr. Mario is one of the higher-ups in the "not many." Characters will be removed, yes. People think that Dr. Mario should be removed, yes. People think that Dr. Mario shouldn't be removed, yes.

So this entire thread boils down to why he should and why he shouldn't be removed.

The arguement for why he should seems to be as follows:
He's Mario in a doctor's suit
There isn't anything unique about him
He's unimportant
He should be removed to "make room"
He's a clone

The arguement for why he should stay seems to be as follows:
He's diverse enough to be more than Mario in a doctor's suit
He's a good Nintendo franchise
He's one of the more fame acclaimed Tetris spin-offs
He can be decloned

I'm sure I'm missing something, but whatever.. Umm, I don't know what my point in doing that was.... **** I'm absent-minded, rofl.

Anyways, how about a compromise. As so many of you say, "He's Mario in a doctor's suit, nothing more." Well, what if in Brawl he could put on the doctor's suit and become Dr. Mario. He wouldn't have the same moveset as he does in Melee now, either. He'd be much more altered.

How's that sound?

 

[Bowserlick]

I love how Smash is such a fun and intriguing fighting game. And it keeps these properties by taking risks with new character ideas, new fighting styles, and new fighting mechanics. The clones were already done. I think Brawl should focus on the next step. Third party characters and deeper arieal battles seem to be two such new features.

We already have a Mario character. And we already have a Luigified Mario, Luigi. I would just want time devoted toward more major characters first. Making a new moveset for the doctor might take away the necessary time to make a more major, relevant character. If there is time leftover, I think a Doctor Mario clone would be all right. But otherwise the time should be devoted, IMO, to new features and more prominent characters. Of course I am also the guy who wants Andross has a selectable fighter.

 

[*Firefly*]

Ok I know there are different, but there attacks are just variations of the other ones attacks. They also said that some characters will be dropped. No matter what character is removed or changed someone is going to be mad. Also how many people will honestly refuse to buy brawl if their favorite character is changed or removed. I will be mad if Roy is removed but Im still going to buy brawl. Im just going to play as a different character.

I agree, if Roy is removed i'll be quite angry but i'll get over it, look at all the new people that are and could be coming, losing a clone isn't a big deal in the long run even if It's Roy. Because lets face it, a person with a new moveset is usually greater than a clone. (I know everyone says that there wont be clones but I'm not 100% sure since I didn't see the source of that information so don't complain if I wrongfully said that Roy would still be a clone, just kindly direct me to a link to where it says there aren't clones in SSBB)

Thank you ^_^

 

[Kashakunaki]

Alright, Firefly and Zombie.

Would you rather just sit back and take the loss of your beloved Roy?
Or if you had the chance to fight for his rights and possibly save him, would you?

I'm not saying that by argueing in the favor of Dr. Mario I'm by in any way or means increasing his chances of staying in Brawl or anything like that. I'm just trying to make a statement. Also, Bowserlick, why can't you grasp the concept of decloning? It's disgusting.

 

[*Firefly*]

Yes Kasha, I would want Roy to stay in Brawl, and even though I have a dislike for clones, I would want him to stay a clone since thats what i'm used to.(And if they changed him it would be like he wasn't the same person)

I know it sounds contradicting but it's really not. I dislike clones but started to play roy because he was more interesting than marth.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Same for me... except... slightly different reasoning, but yes. You can understand my point of view because of your opinions on Roy. Though, Roy is an oddball because Smash actually made him different from his respective game when people usually argue that no moves can be derived from their respective games.

 

[FireBomb]

What annoys people isn't the fact that he's a clone, has different attacks, or has different clothes, it's that he's still MARIO. Same voice, same face, same stature, unlike the Links. I don't really mind whether he leaves or not, Mario will still have a clone in Luigi, unless they de-clone him too. Wish there was a way to make everyone happy...

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

^ Nintendo took steps at decloning Luigi in Melee, and he cann only became more unique in Brawl.

As for Dr. Mario staying, I like occasionally using him, but I wouldn't be suprised if he was cut for a new unique character.

 

[Iggy K]

I think the Doc will definatley be cut, Saklurai admitted in his Melee blog that Dr. Mario was only added as an excuse to include the Dr. Mario music, plus he is probably the most clonish character in the game.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Me in Red:

So this entire thread boils down to why he should and why he shouldn't be removed.

The arguement for why he should seems to be as follows:
He's Mario in a doctor's suit. [Correct, nothing different]
There isn't anything unique about him. [Correct, nothing different]
He's unimportant. [Correct, nothing different]
He should be removed to "make room". [For characters who have more than a no-story Puzzle game]
He's a clone. [Now I'm just sick of saying the same thing]

The arguement for why he should stay seems to be as follows:
He's diverse enough to be more than Mario in a doctor's suit. How? He's a Tetris game!
He's a good Nintendo franchise. No, 'Mario Platforming' is a good franchise. 'Mario Puzzling' is not.
He's one of the more fame acclaimed Tetris spin-offs. Whoop-die-do! Still a lone Tetris game.
He can be decloned. Same as the first point, for both of us.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but whatever.. Umm, I don't know what my point in doing that was.... **** I'm absent-minded, rofl.

Anyways, how about a compromise. As so many of you say, "He's Mario in a doctor's suit, nothing more."[Aren't you supposed to be opposing this logic?] Well, what if in Brawl he could put on the doctor's suit and become Dr. Mario[Is this not the same as a clone? Am I wrong?]. He wouldn't have the same moveset as he does in Melee now, either. He'd be much more altered.[Again, How?]

How's that sound?[RED]

That's what I say, I'm only typing down here because the message would be too short if I don't put anything. >.>

 

[xianfeng]

Well you have Samus and Zero Suit Samus already O.o

As one character

What annoys people isn't the fact that he's a clone, has different attacks, or has different clothes, it's that he's still MARIO. Same voice, same face, same stature, unlike the Links. I don't really mind whether he leaves or not, Mario will still have a clone in Luigi, unless they de-clone him too. Wish there was a way to make everyone happy...

Luigi's not a clone try playing as him and we'll see you call him a clone.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Kabyk, good job. You managed to take everything I said, warp it and distort it to your own personal arguemental gain. If I didn't have to go to school right now, I'd argue back. Until this afternoon you pessimists.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

I await your rebuttal

 

[Diddy Kong]

I can't believe this. This many of you honestly can't see the differences between Dr. Mario and Mario? This angers me. You guys must completely suck at the game. I understand a lot of you want him removed based on all kinds of reasons, and you may know all the differences, but this is addressed to the ones that can't see a difference between Dr. Mario and Mario.
Here, let me list a few:

Mario is faster and weaker than Dr. Mario.
Forward Aerial move for Mario is a Spike(Meteor Smash), and just a really powerful move for Dr. Mario.
Mario's Fireballs are weaker than Dr. Mario's pills, and Dr. Mario's pills are bouncier, which makes them easier to bounce off of objects and angles to throw them at weird angles to trip up your opponent.
Dr. Mario's Up+B has a much more powerful hit at the end of the move, and can(rarely) be used to kill people. It has a longer delay, but the extra kick at the end of the move usually makes it worthwhile.
Forward Smash for Dr. Mario has less range, but does significantly more kick and damage.
Backwards aerial for Dr. Mario does extra kick and damage, with slightly more delay.
Grabs for Dr. Mario generally do more damage, and throw the enemy about as far.

Most importantly for me, though, is how much better Dr. Mario flows into combos. Mario is erratic with his speed, but Dr. Mario is much easier to place while trying to juggle an enemy. As a general rule, after one learns to L-Cancel and Tek everything properly, Dr. Mario's extra delays don't nearly take enough away from the character to outweigh the extra damage Dr. Mario does. Now, that last statement is personal preference, and there are people that prefer Mario. But Dr. Mario is rated higher on the tier, I believe, and is used much more in tournaments than Mario. To an unskilled player, yeah, he may look identical to Mario, but there are several differences. Check out the Overdose Doc Combo video for a perfect example of how you can use Doc's slower falling to "flow" much easier into moves in the air, letting you edge hog much easier.

Personally, I VERY seriously doubt ANY characters will be dropped in Brawl. I haven't kept up with the news, so if there's been something confirmed, then whatever, but I seriously doubt they wouldn't go ahead and put all the characters back in. If Doc is taken out, I would be seriously upset, and several other people would be too. That would be like taking wavedashing out, or mid-air dodging... there's absolutely NO point to it, since ADDING characters can't take anything away from the game, and it would only make people angry.

The only diffences that REALLY count are the Fair and the neutral B move. The other things are still the same as Mario except slighty diffrent effects. Still no mather how you look at it, Doctor Mario is just Mario in a doctors outfit, meaning they are both the same character.

Also it has already been confirmed that some of the older characters will be cut. The most likely removals are Pichu, Roy, Young Link and Dr. Mario. Which all where last minute additions togheter with Falco and Ganondorf, but those characters shouldn't be a clone of the main character anyways and have actually potential of making a better moveset... Which the other characters can't... Well they actually CAN but why having lets say Pichu while we already have Pikachu? There are much better characters then Pichu, Roy, Young Link and Dr. Mario out there.

 

[Bowserlick]

I do grasp the concept of decloning. The pros and the cons. Gannondorf should be decloned. All his cloned moves in relation to Captain Falcon should be changed. In a way it would be like getting a new character, because his stats and moves will drastically change. I never pictured Gannondorf as being that pathetically slow on his feet. The thing is Sakurai could only devote so much effort and time to creating a number of characters. Gannondorf's decloning will take away time that could be used for another character. But that is fine, because Gannondorf is a major character and a major villain. He needs to be in and he needs to represent his persona in the games.

Doctor Mario can theorectically be decloned. My main beef is that he is such a minor character. His game was a tetris variant. It was a quickly assembled puzzle game. I would rather the time spent toward decloning Doctor Mario would be spent elsewhere. Of course as a costume change, with the pills as merely graphical changes of the fireball, would be cool.

 

[kill_shot]

he should be a costume!

 

[Falco&Victory]

Dr. Mario is Mario in a doctor's outfit. I never liked the idea of different forms of the same charcter like Y. Link and Pichu. Plus he would work just as good as an alternate costume with his stats changed to his when you pick it. I don't support removing him but majority rules so I just decided to roll with it.

Tirkaro, you must not play as Mario that often. Fusing their stats is a stupid idea because they play differently. Maybe it is not the hugest difference but it is still different. Mario should retain all of his stats and only change them when he puts on Dr. Mario's costume.

About that last statement.
No.
Dr. Mario>Mario
He is higer on the tier.There is no one who counters the doc who does not counter mario.No one does better against the doc.The Doctor,is better.

 

[Gaudion]

I think the major problem people have with Dr. Mario is that his moves are aesthetically identicle to Marios, sans the pills. He does play slightly different due to stats and properties of a few select attacks, so no one's claiming they're exact duplicates, but it's close enough for most people to want him gone so his character slot can be used for someone else.

I know Captain Jack and others can use Dr. Mario to great effect. Really. But if they lost him, would it be that bad if they just had to transition back to normal Mario? I think most of us would just like to see a little more variety in the roster.

 

[Falco&Victory]

I am all for him being removed,but I can not stand people saying his moves are close enough to Mario's for him to be absolete.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think the major problem people have with Dr. Mario is that his moves are aesthetically identicle to Marios, sans the pills. He does play slightly different due to stats and properties of a few select attacks, so no one's claiming they're exact duplicates, but it's close enough for most people to want him gone so his character slot can be used for someone else.

I know Captain Jack and others can use Dr. Mario to great effect. Really. But if they lost him, would it be that bad if they just had to transition back to normal Mario? I think most of us would just like to see a little more variety in the roster.

The thing is... Brawl will play diffrently then Melee. Characters will not be the same.
On the N64 I used Pikachu, now I use DK, which I never used in N64. Same for the likes of Captain Jack, if Doc gets removed he'll just play another character. Same for me, if I don't like DK in Brawl maybe I'll start playing Wario? Doc's removal wouldn't hurt top players at all mainly because IF Doc will return to Brawl, the top players MIGHT like Mario more...

 

[The Basement Dweller]

Mario's stats should stay Mario's even while using the Doc costume. Mario is better than Doc in my opinion.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

Still no mather how you look at it, Doctor Mario is just Mario in a doctors outfit, meaning they are both the same character.

This is a stupid reason. They have added another Samus character, are you against it also?

 

[The Basement Dweller]

This is a stupid reason. They have added another Samus character, are you against it also?

This statement is stupid you don't know how Zero Suit will be added they never announced she was acompletely separate character. Still they would have different moves if they were separate Doc has the sam moves as Mario.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

This statement is stupid you don't know how Zero Suit will be added they never announced she was acompletely separate character. Still they would have different moves if they were separate Doc has the sam moves as Mario.

Did i quote that they had the same moves? What I quoted was that they are the same character. Please Read and think before you post. Also, In my opinion it would be a terrible mistake to not make Samus and Zamus two different characters and so do a lot of other people, go check the thread. I think it's highly unlikely she will be one character. By the way... i do think that Docs moves are too close to Marios so don't just assume I am for Doc staying the way he is.

 

[The Basement Dweller]

The first statement was my responce to your psot the second statement was just adding my own opinion to why Zero suit and Samus are better than having Doc and Mario maybe you need to think about the possible meanings of someone else's post before you post and even if they did change Doc's moves I would still want him out, also I want Zero suit and Samus tobe separate aswell and you accused me of assuming that you were for Doc and then you assume that I am for having Zero suit and Samus as one character.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

Actually, your second sentence carries on your thoughts of the first and is still talking about them being the same character so you were therefore still talking to me. If you weren't make sure you make it noticable by maybe droping a line or make the sentences seem as if they don't keep talking to the same person. Also I didn't accuse you nor care what side of the Zamus debate you are on. Also, I was just making sure you knew that I do not support Docs moves, though i did alt him once.

 

[The Basement Dweller]

It was an inferred break as it isn't a response to any post here although it did carry on my thoughts it was tied becausethey were related sentences and not because they were both addressed towards you.

 

[Wizzlecroff]

It was an inferred break as it isn't a response to any post here although it did carry on my thoughts it was tied becausethey were related sentences and not because they were both addressed towards you.

Sure, anyway. Another reason saying two of the same character is a stupid idea is that many times you see characters like Marth and Fox played by many people. Well these are the exact same characters, so there is no reason why having two marios is bad. The only thing that Doc really has against him is moves. Well, and some people don't consider him important enough.

 

[*Firefly*]

I do grasp the concept of decloning. The pros and the cons. Gannondorf should be decloned. All his cloned moves in relation to Captain Falcon should be changed. In a way it would be like getting a new character, because his stats and moves will drastically change. I never pictured Gannondorf as being that pathetically slow on his feet. The thing is Sakurai could only devote so much effort and time to creating a number of characters. Gannondorf's decloning will take away time that could be used for another character. But that is fine, because Gannondorf is a major character and a major villain. He needs to be in and he needs to represent his persona in the games.

Doctor Mario can theorectically be decloned. My main beef is that he is such a minor character. His game was a tetris variant. It was a quickly assembled puzzle game. I would rather the time spent toward decloning Doctor Mario would be spent elsewhere. Of course as a costume change, with the pills as merely graphical changes of the fireball, would be cool.

Noone should be de-cloned. That would make it bad for all the people that once played those chars. I'm not playing marth if roy is de-cloned, ill just play someone new which will be frustrating. I mean, clones aren't exactly the same you cant drop ganon and pick up falcon in a day. I want no future clones but I dont want any clones with new movesets. Dont even take anyone out, because someones pichu is like your(anyones im generalizing) fox or your marth or your shiek, you spent time on that person and they shouldnt ruin your competitive chances because they take out the person you think suits you best and that you spent countless hours practicing with

 

[zombie7775]

Alright, Firefly and Zombie.

Would you rather just sit back and take the loss of your beloved Roy?
Or if you had the chance to fight for his rights and possibly save him, would you?

I'm not saying that by argueing in the favor of Dr. Mario I'm by in any way or means increasing his chances of staying in Brawl or anything like that. I'm just trying to make a statement. Also, Bowserlick, why can't you grasp the concept of decloning? It's disgusting.

I would but Im too lazy to fight for him to be in. I will play the game either way. I dont even have Roy's game (seeming its Japan only) so its not a big deal to me. The only reason I went with Roy is Dweller told me to.

 

[kill_shot]

1.) ganon is not a clone of Fox......I have seen several people saying that.
2.)Instead of removing the clone, they should make it a costume.