The Puff matchup partial soloution

[Ministry]

Alright i know fighting agasint puff is a brutal matchup. She can space bairs, rest recoveries Duck+CC to anything. Yeah its tough, but iv been experimenting and found some stuff to help make the matchup more tolerable. Please feel free to comment, Critacize and correct anything you want.

Punishments (The goal is to maximize the percent)

When puff misses a rest the automatic thing that goes through the majority of sheik's mind's is to upsmash. Keep in mind upsmash is only 17% if its not stale and will end a combo. However there are better options based on percent.

1.) Under 15% grab and followup (ftilt to fair, uptilt to upair or even 2 upairs will do more then 17 damage.) also if the puff doesnt struggle to get out of grabs thats a few more % with jabs

2.) 15%-40% i have found that u can SH nair, L cancel it and follow her with a boostgrab or Jc grab depending on their DI. Then from there you can dthrow and follow up.

3.) from 40%-65%ish just regrab and followup is the best option unless its something stupid like top platform on yoshi's in which case upsmash is better.

4.) Anything over 65% its a given to upsmash

Covering Aproaches

Some of the stuff is risky, but the rewards are great.

On bigger more flat stages, FD,PS,Dk,DL. She will be aproaching you from the air obviously. But i have found that if you space Full Hop Needles you can pseudo stop her. If she is high up you can release your needles and follow up, if shes right at the bottom you can also release and grab/whatever. If she is anywhere in between those hights you can always store the needles and nair. The Nair has a long animation so it will be hard for her to trade. This needle aproach will keep her grounded so grabs are a bit more easy to get.

I have also found that if she is pressuring your sheild or if u wana try an aproach you can fullhop nair and right when it ends you can throw out another nair or fair right before you hit the ground. Then you can proceed to bufferjump, grab, retreat or followup. It's hard for her to CC rest it if she is at medium % or over.


Recovery

Your not supose to go after jiggs when she is offstage, but letting her on is not good either. I have found that if she is recovering at stage level or lower jumping off and charging needles is great. If she comes near you you can release then jump and fair her when shes stuck in stun. You can also release and fair or back off also.

Anything else anyone would like to add plz do. Im not an expert on the matchup but i just wrote what seems logical

 

[t3h Icy]

Lol, look what I did to you.

Based on location and stage, Zelda->Bair can be more effective than Sheik's USmash, such as near the edge in Dreamland.

Being tricky with Vanish when Jigglypuff is holding onto the edge is vital as well. Generally if there's a platform, take it, or otherwise get as far away as possible. You want the most distance from the edge or else you're vulnerable to Rest, such as this.

Sheik's Bair has longer range and has Needles, so abuse them. Grabs are risky because Jigglypuff can duck them and they don't lead to a whole lot (although at mid-high percents, a Fair or Uair can kill).

I like the match-up from both sides.

 

[Ministry]

Didnt think of the zelda idea, i just hate doing that and missing the spacing. practical in some situations though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nair --> grab is iffy; I'm 99.9% sure that ASDI down beats it. I've thought about Uair --> jab reset because they often DI down if they see you coming in with an aerial so then you just Uair and reset and do stuff. If they DI away it looks like it might work too because you'd just combo something.

Not sure what percent it would possibly work at. It knocks her over when she's Rested at 18% if your Uair is at full power (12%).

When you stuff their approach with needles you generally have to be descending or have a lot of space or you can be hit sometimes. Puff breaks out of stun too fast.

 

[soap]

do NOT try to needle grab puff.

turning into zelda and kicking them is pretty hilarious. why have i not thought of this

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would love to jab reset --> grab a Puff one day. Just to say I did it.

 

[Teczer0]

I would love to jab reset --> grab a Puff one day. Just to say I did it.

I was SO close last weekend on Thunders comboing Vanz's puff in tourney. >_______<

He was at too high percent though

About your recovery section though, its why sheik players tend to feel this match up is in favor of puff or at least starting to feel that way. Unless the puff recovers from below you don't ever have a reliable edgeguard. I actually do run off DJ nair vs puffs that try to recover low because it has a good shot of stage spiking because the back part of the Nair is quite strong.

For most often cases punishing rest with grab is the best idea. Well for all cases that upsmash isn't obviously the best answer I mean.

Also I wanna reiterate:

do NOT try to needle grab puff.

You have to literally perform it perfectly while the puff only has to hold down, hope you miss and then rest. Basically its not worth it ever.

 

[Kaffei]

How bad/good is this MU for Sheik?

 

[Tope]

Needle-grabbing puff takes what everything else in this game takes, practice practice practice.

Also wtf is MU?

 

[TheManaLord]

MU is match-up

and can't sheik dair to usmash or dair to uair depending on the percent, those seem like simple effective utilitarian punishes

or zelda kick

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dair --> U-smash LOL WHAT THE **** NO

Dair --> aerial can work at some percents but you typically won't get an Uair because you can get a good amount of horizontal distance if you DI Sheik's D-air.

 

[xbombr]

I usually screw up the Zelda kick when I try it and end up having to fight her as Zelda... -.-

When it hits, the Jiggs usually rages though.

 

[NJzFinest]

I thought I was the only Sheik that transformed into Zelda to kill Puff lol
I guess the secret is out...

Zelda isn't that bad against Puff (matchup wise), especially when all you need is just one kick.

 

[pockyD]

zelda has an even harder time with a crouching jigglypuff than sheik does

 

[NJzFinest]

Huh? If Puff crouch spams, she'll get toe'd.

 

[pockyD]

how is that not 100% transparent with zelda's floatiness and inability to do anything else

if the puff is losing to that, they're terrible

 

[TheManaLord]

dsmash is 4 framesssssss

 

[NJzFinest]

how is that not 100% transparent with zelda's floatiness and inability to do anything else

Cause you're forgetting how much her toe outspaces everything Puff has and how much lag it... doesn't have haha.
edit- Forgot to mention simply Fair/Bair oos

if the puff is losing to that, they're terrible

Problem is, you're thinking it as strickly Zelda vs Puff. Rather, it's like.... "being Zelda until you hit Puff once". Getting hit by one toe doesn't make you bad.
Main reason why Zelda < Puff is cause toe spam isn't a reliable way of working up damage on Puff, it takes years to to get enough % to kill her. But if you put in Sheik and the fact you only need one kick....

 

[KirbyKaze]

dsmash is 4 framesssssss

It also has about 0 knockback and will most assuredly be punished (probably very severely, at that) if you try to attack Puff's duck with it.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

so what if sheik went hybrid (lol the game creators had this in mind all along didnt they?) damage with sheik kill with zelda

 

[soap]

sheiks bair is better than zeldas, just spam that...

 

[Ministry]

some people dont have tech skill like u soap

 

[xbombr]

so what if sheik went hybrid (lol the game creators had this in mind all along didnt they?) damage with sheik kill with zelda

Sheik has too many kill moves for this to be useful. The game designers also could have never predicted the speed and level of competition this game is played at today. Quite frankly, just the frames required to turn into Zelda is too much of a waste, especially when you consider that you're turning into a garbage character with 2 good moves.

 

[NJzFinest]

^^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwNFxLNomg

lol, Puff should = no problem

 

[soap]

ive seen that.

still doesn't explain how sheik/zelda beats puff

 

[Zodiac]

Sheik's Bair has longer range and has Needles, so abuse them. Grabs are risky because Jigglypuff can duck them and they don't lead to a whole lot (although at mid-high percents, a Fair or Uair can kill).

I like the match-up from both sides.

actually if you miss a grab and jiggs is crouching, she gets an automatic rest on you, so if you see a crouching jiggs, do something other than grab.

But you need be campy in this match up, Thats the only way I win it, spamming bair and camping puff, plus needles. Im still learning this match up though.

 

[painlord k11]

punish rest with short hop fully charged needles to grab down throw fair or up air i think that work =D

 

[soap]

^that does not work

 

[pockyD]

it can work

you're better off charging the needles but not using them immediately though imo (just dthrow aerial if not at usmash KO %)

 

[soap]

^ ya, thats what i do. but not the needle grab.

another thing to try at mid percents, is fair or nair to full charge release

 

[painlord k11]

ya thx for the info i dont know how to use the hop needle L cancel or whatever it is............ describe hows it done?

 

[kirbyraeg]

i think what i'm about to say is dumb as ****, but in a general sense, when a character is recovering low or along the stage, couldn't you just use the chain hanging over the edge a bit to rack up damage and get rid of their upward momentum?

it might not be the best idea vs. puff since she can air dodge through it eventually, but when you're playing vs. characters that have limited recoveries like marth/falco and you think you'll **** up your edgeguard because it's a tense game or something, is it an option worth considering?

 

[pockyD]

you should never play as if you're expecting to **** up

if you rely on crutch options, you'll never improve past the point where you use them

 

[ArcNatural]

Not to mention the start up time of the whip meant you probably could of just edgehogged anyway. But I agree with PockyD. Occasionally getting Falco/Fox firefox with whip though is pretty fun friendly wise :D

 

[Ministry]

the whip is actually viable agasint gannon when hes at higher percent. hes so slow that if he gets caught in it you have time to get away without getting hit. plus it racks up damage and makes him mad

 

[pockyD]

...but what DOESN'T work on offstage ganon?

 

[soap]

you should never play as if you're expecting to **** up

if you rely on crutch options, you'll never improve past the point where you use them

i like this statement

larry david is so deep rofl