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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

Starman147

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Down throw to footstool is unfortunately just a training room combo. Almost any DI at all, jump, air dodge, or attack will beat it out. It's unfortunate, but the hit stun just isn't great enough.
Also, I watched a VOD of aMSa playing some Greninjas the other day, and saw him up-throw, bait the air dodge, and fast fall nair into something else (I don't recall what). I thought about it, this could be another interesting and effective option out of up-throw at low percents. I wonder if it would have more payout than some of our other air dodge read options?
Since most of aMSa's footstool combos start from a sweetspot nair at very low percents, baiting the air dodge to nair might be an effective set up because of up-throws low damage. The opponent would probably have to be a fastfaller for them to hit the ground during the air dodge, though.

Really the only way you'll get any usage out of down throw is at low percents (d-throw to d-tilt may be able to work) or if they air dodge into the ground, which a lot of my opponents seem to do often.
 

Ludiloco

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D-tilt into footstool appears to be a pretty good combo starter around 40-50 on most characters, it's a little easier to land than FF nair in my opinion and has almost as much hitstun (if not the same amount).
 

Degerix

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D-tilt into footstool appears to be a pretty good combo starter around 40-50 on most characters, it's a little easier to land than FF nair in my opinion and has almost as much hitstun (if not the same amount).
I agree.
I haven't tried a U-Turn with D-Tilt. Should help comboing into footstool or Up Smash at higher percents easier.
 

Starman147

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I've never really known the answer to this... but what stages does Greninja do good on and bad on? I would suspect low ceilings help him greatly, but what about platforms? I need to get better at stage strikes and counterpicks.
 

Gunla

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I've never really known the answer to this... but what stages does Greninja do good on and bad on? I would suspect low ceilings help him greatly, but what about platforms? I need to get better at stage strikes and counterpicks.
If you can ever get to Town & City, do so.

Other good stages:
  • Stages with low ceilings. Halberd is a good example.
  • Stages with platforms that allow you to use USmash and other moves that hit on through (Lylat, BF, Miiverse)
Stages I try to avoid:
  • Dreamland 64 - High Ceilings
  • Smashville (that's personal bias, but against certain characters, do not select it)
  • Delfino (the entire stage doesn't really help Greninja)
  • Castle Siege (It's just a bad stage)
 

Degerix

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If you can ever get to Town & City, do so.

Other good stages:
  • Stages with low ceilings. Halberd is a good example.
  • Stages with platforms that allow you to use USmash and other moves that hit on through (Lylat, BF, Miiverse)
Stages I try to avoid:
  • Dreamland 64 - High Ceilings
  • Smashville (that's personal bias, but against certain characters, do not select it)
  • Delfino (the entire stage doesn't really help Greninja)
  • Castle Siege (It's just a bad stage)
Thanks! I only knew that stages with low ceilings work with Greninja.
 

Starman147

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If you can ever get to Town & City, do so.

Other good stages:
  • Stages with low ceilings. Halberd is a good example.
  • Stages with platforms that allow you to use USmash and other moves that hit on through (Lylat, BF, Miiverse)
Stages I try to avoid:
  • Dreamland 64 - High Ceilings
  • Smashville (that's personal bias, but against certain characters, do not select it)
  • Delfino (the entire stage doesn't really help Greninja)
  • Castle Siege (It's just a bad stage)
I thought the platforms on BF make the U-smash a lot worse because when the opponent gets hit by the first hit, they'll go downward into the platform and bounce off, preventing me from getting the second hit. That's usually why I tried to pick stages with less platforms, but perhaps I was incorrect. Otherwise, the choices for the other stages make a lot of sense.
 

Gunla

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I pick BF personally out of my playstyle, and like using that a bit; if it works for you, then go ahead.
 

Snackss

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I don't like Battlefield. It feels like it limits Greninja's approach and mobility and reduces up smash's usefulness.

I don't like Halberd. It's just a stupid stage competitively and the dip in the platform during the flying parts means you need to be at the edges of the platform to really use Shuriken. I don't know why people prefer it over Delfino, even without Delfino giving Greninja guaranteed up throw up air KO's at low percent.
 

Sunnysunny

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How do you know how good I am? lol

But yeah being a Sm4sh player in Brazil is kinda tough, especially since I'm not in the state where most tournaments happen.
Bwehhh just from hear-say~
When I was grinding really hard to become #1 in Colorado I had sorta a hitlist, and there were like...
QUITE A FEW people that recommended I should play against you.

Of course our connection was beans though. I dunno. I also just kinda thought your personality was...Very ninja like?! It was pretty amusing to me how much you matched your character. <3 Sorry, I hope that doesn't come off as weird. Haha!

but yeah. I feel as though there's a LOT of great players that suffer from there location. Norcal is such an active place I feel like it's a lot easier to become really good in such a harsh environment.



Oh!
Also before I forget

The lucario's saw this today and thought we should pop a link down for you guys.

http://www.pokemoncenter.com/Substitute-Plush-Collection/b/12591957011?searchSize=60

Pokemon center is now offering more substitute swag. uwu
 

Starman147

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I thought Dreamland had a lower ceiling?
I tested this in training mode against Mario, set CPU to control, and up threw until he died off the top (with no rage on Greninja). Mario starts dying from up throw at 173% on Battlefield but starts dying from up throw on Dream Land at 164%. So Dream Land does indeed have a lower ceiling and would be a better counterpick than Battlefield for a Greninja who gets most of its kills off of the top.
 
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FullMoon

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Bwehhh just from hear-say~
When I was grinding really hard to become #1 in Colorado I had sorta a hitlist, and there were like...
QUITE A FEW people that recommended I should play against you.

Of course our connection was beans though. I dunno. I also just kinda thought your personality was...Very ninja like?! It was pretty amusing to me how much you matched your character. <3 Sorry, I hope that doesn't come off as weird. Haha!

but yeah. I feel as though there's a LOT of great players that suffer from there location. Norcal is such an active place I feel like it's a lot easier to become really good in such a harsh environment.
Seriously who's spreading word of me around? lol

But yeah, thanks, hearing that I have a ninja-like personality is certainly new.

I guess Greninja really is my spirit animal lol.
 

Starman147

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Seriously who's spreading word of me around? lol

But yeah, thanks, hearing that I have a ninja-like personality is certainly new.

I guess Greninja really is my spirit animal lol.
If I had to guess, it would probably be because of your prowess on the Ladder. I remember fighting you in some Ladder friendlies in June so I could learn things I was doing wrong, and, needless to say, you were definitely better. Those tips you gave me actually helped quite a lot.
 

FullMoon

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If I had to guess, it would probably be because of your prowess on the Ladder. I remember fighting you in some Ladder friendlies in June so I could learn things I was doing wrong, and, needless to say, you were definitely better. Those tips you gave me actually helped quite a lot.
... Oh, so that was you. You weren't the first guy to ask me for dittos lol

Btw, this new database-like website posted on Reddit has one of your matches alongside one of aMSa's matches. It seems that you're quite popular :)
Whoa what.

And they included a video of an online tournament but didn't include my actual Greninja montage, lol.

I know I did well at the ladder but still, I have to wonder who's spreading word of me around.
 

biribiri

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Potato quality aside, I hope stuff like this doesn't mean SS canceling will be patched out.
 
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Jaguar360

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHo8YTYFsA8&feature=youtu.beSo ZeRo finally covered Greninja in one of his videos, and his main point was that he didn't have a niche that made you want to use him, like really good kill combos or throws. I know we're all here because we love Greninja, but can anyone tell me what he can do better than say, ZSS?
He said that Greninja's recovery isn't amazing like Kirby's, when Greninja's is arguably better and easily has one of the top 5 recoveries in the game. He said that he can't weave in and out like Fox, which is pretty untrue since Fox, Greninja, Falcon and ZSS are the most mobile characters in the game objectively. I'd argue that D-throw --> F-air is an amazing kill combo since his dash grab is one of the best in the game and his running speed makes it easy to get those quickly. Greninja never got any of his guaranteed kill combos and setups taken away. If anything, he got one added in D-throw --> F-air. His tier placement of Greninja is reasonable, but his reasoning is off on many points.

Over ZSS, he has an easier-to-land and more spammable projectile and doesn't have too many problems against shield with his far superior dash grab and pivot grab. Footstool combos are also a pretty big niche, though with its difficulty, it's not as applicable at this point in the meta. Arguably better edgeguards as well, but that might be matchup dependent.

As for other speedy top tiers like Fox, Sheik and Falcon, Greninja has better spacing with f-air, b-air and the buffed f-tilt and Shuriken, multiple kill confirms at high percents, a kill throw at very high percents (which Falcon also has, admittedly), Hydro Pump in general (spacing tool, recovery gimper, movement tool) and the footstool combos.
 
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Snackss

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Greninja doesn't do anything better than the top/ high tiers, but overall he does more than them. Good recovery, good harassment and punish projectile, KO setups, disjointed forward air, good dash grab. Most top/ high tiers (excluding Sheik because that's just not fair) only have 1-2 of those. Although the only quickly noticeable thing he has over Sheik is KO power, so people who have never actually played Greninja for more than 10 minutes think he's just a bad Sheik.

Greninja not being as good as he deserves to be given his attributes has been a problem for a long time, though. He just doesn't work as well as he should; why are there enormous gaps between the percents that his down tilt combos (0-10%, then not until 80%-90%, then not until 130%)? Why does his up throw up air only combo sporadically, and not at all against some characters? Why is his extremely slow forward air not even a KO move from anywhere but the edge of the stage? That should be one of his defining features, a forward air that's slow but disjointed and can KO. Why does he still have a terrible standing grab, and the extra range really isn't worth the trade-off. The shuriken buff was big and showed an understanding of where he needed to start getting fixed, but he's still stuck at "good but not a threat."
 
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Starman147

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Greninja doesn't do anything better than the top/ high tiers, but overall he does more than them. Good recovery, good harassment and punish projectile, KO setups, disjointed forward air, good dash grab. Most top/ high tiers (excluding Sheik because that's just not fair) only have 1-2 of those. Although the only quickly noticeable thing he has over Sheik is KO power, so people who have never actually played Greninja for more than 10 minutes think he's just a bad Sheik.

Greninja not being as good as he deserves to be given his attributes has been a problem for a long time, though. He just doesn't work as well as he should; why are there enormous gaps between the percents that his down tilt combos (0-10%, then not until 80%-90%, then not until 130%)? Why does his up throw up air only combo sporadically, and not at all against some characters? Why is his extremely slow forward air not even a KO move from anywhere but the edge of the stage? That should be one of his defining features, a forward air that's slow but disjointed and can KO. Why does he still have a terrible standing grab, and the extra range really isn't worth the trade-off. The shuriken buff was big and showed an understanding of where he needed to start getting fixed, but he's still stuck at "good but not a threat."
The fair use to kill rather reasonably (1.0.4 changed the knockback scaling from 92 to 84, although 92 could kill a lot in my experience) and up throw wasn't changed from patches. What I'd argue is that Greninja before the patches was very good at comboing into the KO, but the patches screwed that up by not just weakening his power, but also reducing his ability to combo into them (most notably up-air). That mostly bothers me because in Sm4sh, with the generally larger blast lines, decreasing his knockback makes many of his combo finishers lackluster, and since they nerfed the Hydro Pump scaling, Greninja now has to work more often after a hydro pump to get the KO in their helpless state, which isn't necessarily difficult but still harder to pull off.

Really, what the nerfs did for Greninja was barely remove the kill combos he had from moves such as fair and up-air and make them just weak enough where they won't KO reliably (usually from the center of the stage), which I think also removed most of the playerbase from him into Sheik, as most people would write off Greninja as a slower but relatively same-strength Sheik after the nerfs, really giving no reason to play him and discover how technical he can be.
 
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TTYK

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ZeRo is so used to only choosing top three characters he does not even get why the hell he should use anyone else if they are worse. In ZeRo's world, the only three characters that ever should have been developed are sheik, pre-patch diddy, and rosaluma.
 

Snackss

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ZeRo bases his character knowledge on how well other people use characters more than his own experience using them. The minute a Greninja two stocks him, he would probably make a new video talking about how Greninja has great KO setups or something. His opinions are a lot more reactionary than analytical.

I never even caught Zygarde. I just forgot about it once I beat the Elite Four and started breeding Pokemon.
 

Dark Dire Wolf

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ZeRo bases his character knowledge on how well other people use characters more than his own experience using them. The minute a Greninja two stocks him, he would probably make a new video talking about how Greninja has great KO setups or something. His opinions are a lot more reactionary than analytical.

I never even caught Zygarde. I just forgot about it once I beat the Elite Four and started breeding Pokemon.
Same! I actually forgot that the Heonn remakes came out after, I've played those most recently.
 

Spirst

 
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I like the Zygarde dog thing but, in my opinion, the last Zygarde form looks horrid. It looks like the kind of drawing pinned on the refrigerator by a 2nd grader who drew what to him was a super awesome robot monster.

As for the video, I had a good laugh at him citing Greninja having a worse recovery than Jigglypuff and Kirby. Kirby has horrid airspeed and final cutter is awful. Jigglypuff has no real way to ascend other than her multiple jumps which aren't too hard to footstool. With Greninja, you can hydropump ledge snap, or hydropump onto the stage or what have you. Zero is a great player but I don't look to him as a strong character analyst.
 

Snackss

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I've never heard him analyzing characters, especially not in this game. So I have no idea.

Somebody needs to make a Greninja analysis as of July 31st. Most people here probably know enough to do a useful one, but making a video is a different matter.
 

DrizzyDrew

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If you guys could buff something about Greninja, what would it be?
I personally wanna see Nair get less frames so Greninja suicides around the world can stop.
 

Snackss

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There's been a thread for that for a while. Most common problems still discussed are neutral air being wonky, and forward air being far too slow and relatively weak. It needs to be a legitimate KO move if it's going to have that much startup, none of this 140% crap.

Making his combos more consistent would be important as well.
 
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Ludiloco

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I've been autopiloting hard lately :/ just kinda doing things because they work sometimes and getting completely bodied for it. I think I've lost touch with Greninja's metagame and need to spend some time away from him. I'm going to a weekly tomorrow and am gonna try a bunch of characters I like to play in friendlies and see which ones do ok. Just gonna focus on making the right play and not overextending trying to throw out moves and make the big play. Take what's guaranteed and don't try to play off super hard reads.

Any other tips for breaking out of a funk? I played a little Roy and G&W last night for fun and I was dominating, while my Greninja was getting bopped by the same people. Which is what has led me to try some other characters out for a few days and just see what happens.
 
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