Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Illusion.]

consomme quit greninja to be (yet another) lost sheik player. nietono syndrome.

Did he Tweet that or something?

 

[ReRaze]

Avid lurker here....Hi~

I don't main greninja but have him as a pocket and love watching the char and his metagame grow

Anyways probably a stupid question but humour me, are Some and Consomme the same person? That green greninja? Pls tell me he's not actually dropping Greninja.

 

[momochuu]

Sad to hear that another great Greninja player quit.

However i feel that he quit playing Greninja because he didn't get the results he wanted with him.

I still believe that there is so much more to achieve with this character.

We just need to invest more time in this character then in a people have to invest in a character like sheik.

Don't give up! We got this.

I dunno, I'm probably about to play Bayonetta lel.

Greninja's good but yeah.....

 

[istudying]

Avid lurker here....Hi~

I don't main greninja but have him as a pocket and love watching the char and his metagame grow

Anyways probably a stupid question but humour me, are Some and Consomme the same person? That green greninja? Pls tell me he's not actually dropping Greninja.

Yes they are the same person, and yes he is dropping Greninja for Sheik.

https://twitter.com/HelloKarinachuu/status/685316134007078913

 

[FullMoon]

I can't really do anything for the meta since I can't afford to travel and go to big tournaments. Wish I could but overall I just don't have any incentive to keep trying my best with Greninja other than just liking the game =V

 

[Illusion.]

Damn this makes me sad

 

[Funkermonster]

In my personal case: I wanted to be known as the Greninja guy in my region since before the game came out and I always had my heart set on playing my best with Frog. But unfortunately, all my homies seem to respect or fear my Mega Man instead, and now god ol @Stroderp has already taken the title and I don't think I'll be stealing it any time soon, although I must admit I got a good amount of respect for him and hope I'll be able to play against. At the one and only national I've been to so far I wanted to shine with both of them, but it was only my MM that made me a local hero and my ninutsu skills didn't work out out as well as I wanted that day, and I ended losing my magic touch collapsing the next day with both of them anyways. From that day forward I basically made him my new main and demoted Gren to secondary status.

I love the Blue Bomber and all, but it was never supposed to be this way and come to think of it, I never planned on maining himhonestly can hardly even remember why I started playing MM in the first place (in fact, I didn't even become a fan of his games until after Sm4sh). Sometimes I I do still enjoy playing my new main and I'm glad I've become decently known where I come from, but sometimes... it just kinda disappoints me that I'm not known for the way I wanted to be known, and that I didn't help the meta I originally wanted to help.

I know its odd that I'm complaining and I do feel a bit awkward saying all this, but I guess I'm just really weird like this. Personally though, I won't ever be dropping him and I do hope somehow I can make things the way I wanted, by going all Greninja for my next few tournies and get as far as I can.

I also hope to stand out as when he comes out, as I'll definitely be using him.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Seriously, of all characters, ANOTHER Sheik?
Greeninja (green greninja) has sadly lost another rep...
Well, it looks like it's time to prove myself at my local.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja Mains may be an endangered species, but our days are from numbered.

is istudying our last high level player? I'd hate for him to carry the burden all alone now....

the green color is my favorite costume, but I swore I would never use it till the day I could surpass Some. Things have changed I guess.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

Greninja Mains may be an endangered species, but our days are from numbered.

is istudying our last high level player? I'd hate for him to carry the burden all alone now....

the green color is my favorite costume, but I swore I would never use it till the day I could surpass Some. Things have changed I guess.

Ergo why it's difficult to pick between Mewtwo and Greninja for spot #3. Even though I'm sure I'll play the other in friendlies, like with Cloud, it's between: the ninja frog who's brought to the point of obscurity, or the telepathic cat (kinda?) who's buffs have people throwing him into question. I mean, that's not saying much though, as I'm maining Lucina and Meta Knight atm, so the only real thing I could do to really help is bop them down to secondaries and put one of the Pokemon as the main, which I'm not very keen on. >.<

 

[Jaguar360]

Some ;_;

Sad to see one of our best leave for the best character, but Sheik is pretty fun to play and Some wants to win. I hope that he succeeds.

I'm also a Greeninja main, but I'm not sure if I can add more representation to the tournament scene when I'm struggling with college and have a mom who doesn't want me to do tournaments so much. Sad day :/

 

[momochuu]

he's not going to win as sheik. there is too many good sheik players there that have been playing her since day 1 and japan knows that matchup too well. its way too late. the part that made me most annoyed is that he's probably going to drown in a sea of irrelevance like nietono did because they gave up.

 

[Jaguar360]

I agree. I feel that Sheik would be a good secondary for Some rather than going full steam ahead with maining her and dropping Greninja. Sheik covers his worst matchups after all, though the Sheik ditto could still be an issue...

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

We still have hope in D1 and Techei. I can't go to KTAR XVI (again...) so I'm hoping Techei takes a high place and that Blue goes back and gets top 8 again in the name of buffed Mewtwo.

 

[Snackss]

You could always hope for Sheik to get an actual, meaningful nerf, considering she's only had one (back air) in the entirety of balance patches. There are way too many Sheiks in Japan especially; everyone wants to just play the safest, most reliable character and hope they come out on top. Even with Meta Knight moving up, and Ryu, who doesn't even need to outplay Sheik, just survive long enough to land an up tilt, the answer to Sheik is "pick Sheik." Which is a bad sign.

 

[Y2Kay]

sheik is so gross guys

 

[cheesecakesquared]

I would be very surprised if he got better results as Sheik. You can't pick the top tier and auto expect to win. I would never bring out my sheik in tourney because I am garbage with her. My greninja is way better. In addition, everyone plays Sheik and against Sheik. You have to be really good with her to stand out (as was said).

If Some doesn't feel comfortable fighting sheik as greninja, that's understandable. But do you think the mirror match would be any better? I personally dislike mirror matches. I'd rather pick up another character that deals better with Sheik like Ryu, Zero Suit or MK but that is me.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

The main reason I hate having a defined "top tier" in anything: it's a case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
I always play mid tiers because of this, because they're a balance of original and capable.
Not saying low tiers aren't capable, because they totally are, but generally they're just way harder to find success with.

 

[ROBnWatch]

The main reason I hate having a defined "top tier" in anything: it's a case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
I always play mid tiers because of this, because they're a balance of original and capable.
Not saying low tiers aren't capable, because they totally are, but generally they're just way harder to find success with.

Additionally that's a reason I don't pay much attention to tiers. In fact, 4/5 of my mains are higher tier simply by coincidence. And heck, my top 5 could be the bottom 5 on an official tier list, and I'd still play them. I don't care how far down the list they are. If I can play the character in I way I like and can have fun with, I'll continue playing said character.

 

[TTYK]

Pretty sure consomme is coming back to greninja the second he finds out his shiek isn't worth beans. He said a while ago he was going to main rosa too... Look how that turned out.

 

[FullMoon]

I think the Rosa one was meant to be a joke though.

 

[Illusion.]

I think the Rosa one was meant to be a joke though.

It was.

 

[Sovereign]

So, is it the skill ceiling that's tearing down the hopes of many Greninja players or what? I honestly believe that he's one of the better characters in this game, due to the incredible (untechable) combos he has, speed, jump, zoning, and unconventional gimmicks. He requires consistency, which means staying in the lab/training and tightening gameplay.

A character like Greninja definitely weeds out a particular subclass of players.

 

[Blaziking17]

I believe it's not only the skill ceiling, but also how hard it is to get the desired results in tournament. It's doable of course; there's some people in here that have been successful getting to a finals, but others not so much. It takes a lot more work than most of the other characters. Adaptability is key.

 

[CrimsonRick117]

I'm a character loyalist and no matter how "Bad" Greninja may seem I'll still play him, because he's one of my favorites... Still sucks how bad he got nerfed and even with the recent buffs he's gotten it's still meh.....

 

[NWDM 1-H]

I'm getting good results with le frog
i dont think anyone else here has placed high in tourneys and won one with frog in my country, but i don't know, since i just dont see other frogs around here at all. (Denmark). I don't see a reason to drop him at all. Greninja is a great character.
never letting go unless he becomes worse than mii swordfighter ◥θ┴θ◤ノ

stay loyal fellow frog mains. Embrace the frog meme face ◥θ┴θ◤

and damn, i dont think i can make it to Beast 6 ◥o┴o◤. I was going to, but stuff came up plus there's always a next time. Will likely attend Destination Fight #2 and/or Dreamhack Summer. i wanna go international too sometime i guess

so sad i couldnt join beast 6 and find istudying and say hello ◥θ┴0◤

edit:

doesn't matter lmao
doesn't matter. RIP me.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

What you guys think of Venia's Greninja? I think he is showing off the character very very well

Heres a great set between him and Mike Kirby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIwoLGEGO-g

 

[Ludiloco]

Venia is fantastic, quite possibly the strongest representative of the character in the USA. I've been watching him quite a bit, his fair spacing is inspiring and I love how he uses it on the ledge for safe shield pressure/early kills. Need to incorporate that into my game more.

I've been entering tourneys on the West side of the state and man it's a lot easier than the East side lol. Took first and second the last two I entered, compared to typically 9th-17th at East MI tourneys. Kinda nice to win some money and have people look up to you, but I know it really doesn't mean much haha. Especially since the tourneys are 20-30 entrants instead of 70-80.

 

[Snackss]

He seems to have a really good grasp of Greninja as an evasive and spacing character. Lots of people fall into a rhythm of throwing shuriken and going for neutral airs that has pretty mixed success.

 

[KERO]

Hey, so, still alive and stuff. Sorry I haven't been around. Japan's pretty neat, but I haven't had much time to mess around with Greninja research unfortunately. Probably not gonna pop back in here for a while since I'll likely be busy in Japan on top of some personal stuff I'm going through, so I'm just gonna cover some stuff I've found in general while I've been gone. As I'm sure you guys already figured out, the 1.1.3 buffs weren't exactly stellar for us. Basically, Fsmash, SS, and Dsmash all kill about 2% earlier while Usmash kills about 1% earlier. Might be a slight bit of variance, but really, this only serves to make me re-do all my percent charts at some point (or I can be lazy about it and just stick to the 1-2% decrease rule).

Secondly, according to Smash Wiki, turns out our hurtbox size was increased in the infamous 1.0.4 patch? That would explain why my crawling thread became so inaccurate once the Wii U came out. Idk if this was a new discovery or what. On a semi-related note, that would explain something I discovered today, namely Greninja having a giant hurtbox above his head (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbec0vn8W8M&feature=youtu.be).

Even if our hurtbox size didn't increase, the discrepancy is still inexcusable.

I actually was working on some Nair to footstool research, but college has sorta taken precedence over most things. Not sure if I'll release it in a separate thread, but I might end up releasing what I do have in here at some point (unless this has already been covered).

Apologies for not updating threads I said I would update. I... don't really have an excuse for this other than laziness. I have attended some tourneys; didn't perform super great, but I did outplace aMSa at the one we both entered (he's super rusty, though, and had to deal with a Sheik and then 9B), so... that's kinda neat, not that it means much, though. I'm actually going through some issues with Greninja unfortunately. The shield stun increase has really made it harder for me to play him, and I have finally lapsed and picked up Mewtwo as a secondary; no idea what MUs he'll cover, but I feel his buffs might lead to him doing a lot better in some MUs now. I also plan to pick up Corrin due to his spacing oriented nature, but we'll see how that goes. I still intend to keep Greninja as my main cause... well, Greninja is pretty much the sole reason I have any desire to play this game, but I apologize for resorting to seconds.

Anyway, sorry to pop in and out like this with a bunch of disorganized thoughts that may or may not be relevant(it was mainly to post that video to be honest; sorry if weird hurtbox stuff has already been figured out, though). Hope you guys are all doing well, and I'm glad to see that, despite many dropping him, we still have quite a few dedicated Greninjas around to keep things going.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hey, so, still alive and stuff. Sorry I haven't been around. Japan's pretty neat, but I haven't had much time to mess around with Greninja research unfortunately. Probably not gonna pop back in here for a while since I'll likely be busy in Japan on top of some personal stuff I'm going through, so I'm just gonna cover some stuff I've found in general while I've been gone. As I'm sure you guys already figured out, the 1.1.3 buffs weren't exactly stellar for us. Basically, Fsmash, SS, and Dsmash all kill about 2% earlier while Usmash kills about 1% earlier. Might be a slight bit of variance, but really, this only serves to make me re-do all my percent charts at some point (or I can be lazy about it and just stick to the 1-2% decrease rule).

Secondly, according to Smash Wiki, turns out our hurtbox size was increased in the infamous 1.0.4 patch? That would explain why my crawling thread became so inaccurate once the Wii U came out. Idk if this was a new discovery or what. On a semi-related note, that would explain something I discovered today, namely Greninja having a giant hurtbox above his head (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbec0vn8W8M&feature=youtu.be).

Even if our hurtbox size didn't increase, the discrepancy is still inexcusable.

I actually was working on some Nair to footstool research, but college has sorta taken precedence over most things. Not sure if I'll release it in a separate thread, but I might end up releasing what I do have in here at some point (unless this has already been covered).

Apologies for not updating threads I said I would update. I... don't really have an excuse for this other than laziness. I have attended some tourneys; didn't perform super great, but I did outplace aMSa at the one we both entered (he's super rusty, though, and had to deal with a Sheik and then 9B), so... that's kinda neat, not that it means much, though. I'm actually going through some issues with Greninja unfortunately. The shield stun increase has really made it harder for me to play him, and I have finally lapsed and picked up Mewtwo as a secondary; no idea what MUs he'll cover, but I feel his buffs might lead to him doing a lot better in some MUs now. I also plan to pick up Corrin due to his spacing oriented nature, but we'll see how that goes. I still intend to keep Greninja as my main cause... well, Greninja is pretty much the sole reason I have any desire to play this game, but I apologize for resorting to seconds.

Anyway, sorry to pop in and out like this with a bunch of disorganized thoughts that may or may not be relevant(it was mainly to post that video to be honest; sorry if weird hurtbox stuff has already been figured out, though). Hope you guys are all doing well, and I'm glad to see that, despite many dropping him, we still have quite a few dedicated Greninjas around to keep things going.

Dang, it's been a while!

First off, yeah that hurtbox thing has been known for a while. Still, I guess I'll try and spread it and maybe sakurai will look down upon us from the heavens and fix it.

It's fine on the thread stuff. You've been busy, it's alright.

What made the shield stun patch so bad for you? We already had bad out of shield options, so it didn't really hurt us that much when they got even worse. Everyone else's being nerfed in comparison helped us, imo.

And, no need to apologies about secondaries. xP I dunno how much you've been paying attention to our scene over here, and I don't know what things Mewtwo would cover, but you might wanna talk to P2PGibus about that, good Texas Greninja, since he plays both Mewtwo and Greninja.

We're definitely niche, but we're out there! Venia in NY has been turning some heads.

 

[KERO]

I've always played a defensive Greninja, and with my only prior experience being Brawl, I have 0 idea of how to take advantage of increased shield stun. On the other hand, we used to be able to punish quite a few aerials OoS with jab, which I don't feel is possible any longer for some aerials? One of the most difficult parts of being over here in terms of Smash is that I can't really test these things accurately, so everything just ends up feeling unpunishable. I don't even feel able to safely jump OoS anymore. I know the obvious answer is to not use shield as much, but... figuring out how to do that is becoming difficult.

Edit: Also, sorry for going over previously known stuff. Still gonna keep the video up for those that didn't get the memo, though.

 

[FullMoon]

I've always played a defensive Greninja, and with my only prior experience being Brawl, I have 0 idea of how to take advantage of increased shield stun. On the other hand, we used to be able to punish quite a few aerials OoS with jab, which I don't feel is possible any longer for some aerials? One of the most difficult parts of being over here in terms of Smash is that I can't really test these things accurately, so everything just ends up feeling unpunishable. I don't even feel able to safely jump OoS anymore. I know the obvious answer is to not use shield as much, but... figuring out how to do that is becoming difficult.

Edit: Also, sorry for going over previously known stuff. Still gonna keep the video up for those that didn't get the memo, though.

Check this out in order to know what we can still punish with OoS Jab and what we can't.

Look at where it says Advantage (drop) and everything that's -10 or more is punishable by our Jab on shield.

 

[KERO]

Check this out in order to know what we can still punish with OoS Jab and what we can't.

Look at where it says Advantage (drop) and everything that's -10 or more is punishable by our Jab on shield.

Wow, huge thanks for that. I'm pretty bad at understanding frame data, but looking at this... -4 OoS advantage for our Nair is... really good, right? If I'm understanding correctly, that basically means it's super hard to punish on shield? Obviously, realistically, the punish window is more like frame 5-6 (until you can perfectly Nair and land on the next frame, which I would definitely be interested in learning). Given that jumpsquat is four-five frames on average, and that most grabs come out later than frame six and our spotdodge comes out on frame 2, that means the only worries are fast OoS Up-Bs.... Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Nair on shield is looking absolutely ridiculous.

Edit: Just noticed the +3 on drop for our Nair. I'm honestly really confused at this point as to what that refers to. Guess I'll just do some research

Second Edit: Think I got it. The -4 on OoS advantage is what I had presumed. +3 means that, on shield drop, basically any move that comes out on frame 10 or earlier will hit them? In any case, Nair is looking really good.

Also, gotta say, looking at this list is super depressing. Greninja can't seem to punish anything beyond Smashes @.@

Third Edit: Did more research once I saw that grab seemed to punish more things than jab, which can't be right. Turns out "drop" frames don't take into account the shield drop frames, so it would actually be -3 or more (which makes things a ton less depressing).

Fourth edit: Seeing quite a number of -1 and -2 aerials. Prior to shield stun change, those were definitely -3 or more. This more or less confirms to me that our punishes on shield really are a ton weaker now. Probably should've looked into this a long time ago, but... college johns.

 

[FullMoon]

Wow, huge thanks for that. I'm pretty bad at understanding frame data, but looking at this... -4 OoS advantage for our Nair is... really good, right? If I'm understanding correctly, that basically means it's super hard to punish on shield? Obviously, realistically, the punish window is more like frame 5-6 (until you can perfectly Nair and land on the next frame, which I would definitely be interested in learning). Given that jumpsquat is four-five frames on average, and that most grabs come out later than frame six and our spotdodge comes out on frame 2, that means the only worries are fast OoS Up-Bs.... Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Nair on shield is looking absolutely ridiculous.

Edit: Just noticed the +3 on drop for our Nair. I'm honestly really confused at this point as to what that refers to. Guess I'll just do some research

Second Edit: Think I got it. The -4 on OoS advantage is what I had presumed. +3 means that, on shield drop, basically any move that comes out on frame 10 or earlier will hit them? In any case, Nair is looking really good.

Also, gotta say, looking at this list is super depressing. Greninja can't seem to punish anything beyond Smashes @.@

Third Edit: Did more research once I saw that grab seemed to punish more things than jab, which can't be right. Turns out "drop" frames don't take into account the shield drop frames, so it would actually be -3 or more (which makes things a ton less depressing).

Fourth edit: Seeing quite a number of -1 and -2 aerials. Prior to shield stun change, those were definitely -3 or more. This more or less confirms to me that our punishes on shield really are a ton weaker now. Probably should've looked into this a long time ago, but... college johns.

The list is arranged so that there's advantage (shield drop) and advantage (OoS), the former taking into consideration the shield drop frames.

Also what you said about N-Air is pretty much right, if we could make full use of the -4 advantage it would be really silly on shield.

 

[KERO]

Welp, after my term papers are finished, definitely going to lab perfect fast fall Nairs. I mean, we're the same people that looked at Nair to footstool stuff, Utilt to Uair chains, and even running Shadow Sneak and thought, "Yep, we're gonna get this crap down." Maximizing the potential of this frog no matter how ridiculous or impossible doing so appears at first is essentially what we live for haha.

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

I feel that I may drop Greninja. I hate saying that, seeing the low representation the ninja frog gets, but after trying to find #3, Mewtwo seems like the better fit. I've gotten many compliments on my Mewtwo play, yet my Greninja is heavily situational, and downright mediocre. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind at some point.

 

[Jaguar360]

I feel that I may drop Greninja. I hate saying that, seeing the low representation the ninja frog gets, but after trying to find #3, Mewtwo seems like the better fit. I've gotten many compliments on my Mewtwo play, yet my Greninja is heavily situational, and downright mediocre. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind at some point.

It does sound like you should probably drop Greninja then, at least for now. If you're not getting the results you need with Greninja and already have an awesome character and solo viable character like Meta Knight as one of your mains, it might be best to let Greninja go for a while. Mewtwo seems like a good character to have as a secondary especially after the buffs and is a pretty cool Pokemon in his own right.

Perhaps in the future you can come back to the frog life if you're interested. Just go with your gut man.

 

[Gunla]

Oh yeah I never really updated that one thread I made before. Whoopsie.

So I guess I'll post my results here even though lol Brazil, here are two of them.

Torneio Koopacaba - 2nd

Torneio Koopacabana 2 - 1st

There's another notable Greninja player that you might find in those results lists called Regal. He's gone to more tournaments than I have so there's more results of him that I might dig through later.

You also get to see how much of a nerd I am.

Oh by the way can I get the source picture?

http://splashbrush.deviantart.com/art/Ninja-Battle-520236833

Here's the source, by SplashBrush! Their art is great.

 

[bc1910]

Hurtbox thing has been known for ages. I made a video on it which had about 5000 views last time I checked.

It was tweeted to Sakurai numerous times and got to the r/smashbros front page but nothing was done to improve his hurtbox.