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~The Olimar Matchup Thread~Review: R.O.B. or someone~

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asob4

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best bet vs wario is to camp the middle, make them use their second jump, then pivot grab
in my few games with fiction once i started doing this i managed to get a stock. i barely know the match up so he ***** me ha
but rich does this, and he practices with fiction all the time, and it works very well. going to last stock
fiction still won, but that's just cause he's fiction >.>
 

DanGR

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The whole deal with the bike is irrelevant to the matchup. If he doesn't wheelie, then grab him. If he does, then either shield it or fair him off. That's really it. It's not difficult to see it coming. Just don't full hop your pikmin throws and you should be fine.

I personally like to full hop towards the bike out of shield because they usually jump out of it as soon as possible. Then it's a matter of following which direction they jump out of the bike and you get a free aerial on them. If you're near the edge of the stage, it's even easier.

I heard that someone recorded a MM I had yesterday with a wario player. I'll post it here if/when they upload it- if it's any good.

Hopefully Reflex will agree to some recorded friendly/MMs at the next tourney. I can't promise I'd do well though. <_<
 

Excellence

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Just saying, if someone gets hit off screen and they have decent di, any character can get back to the stage (not counting edgeguards and such). This be brawl, not melee :p

Also, you seem to be comparing olis a lot. Where is this coming from? I'm not sure I've ever seen a video of a good oli vs a good wario.

Oh, and dabuz said something about stage cps in his little wall of text. Isn't brinstar sposed to be really good for wario? That along with aerial characters beating oli on that stage would probably get it a ban. RC would be a good stage to ban as well, I would think.
Olimars I see personally at tournaments, with friends, on AiB ladder, or wherever.
 

MorphedChaos

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Dunno, I don't outright kill the pikmin, but if Oli is going to grab me and I can't sidestep, Dtilt means he'll grab, then ground break immediately, and I can jump. really I do think I've gotta not use so much of a ground game vs Oli, I mix both games up, but eh, thats how I beat all the MKs in my area.

Real question here, How would Oli recover if hes off stage? Wario gimps him pretty bad, is there nothing you can do about it? And whistle = free damage, or if timed, does nothing.
 

Dyyne

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...whistle=free damage? You just answered yourself, whistle helps recover at the cost of free damage...lul
 

Dyyne

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Or you can just grab the edge like everyone else to gimp oli
I'm not really sure how this is a reply to what I had typed, since it doesn't make any sense responding to it. He asked if there's anything oli can do to help his recover, and I told him that the whistle, although it gives free damage, does help to recover. I don't understand how what you said is any kind of rebuttal to that lawl....
 

Cook

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One of my crewmates is a Wario, so I play him a lot. Phantom, you know him, it's Kit (BrownPaperSack), and I think you consider him pretty good, so I'd say that our matches are legit. Anyway, I know I get a LOT of use out of pivotgrabs. Also, you guys are right that landing smashes can be hard for kills. I usually set them up with n-air>up-smash. That's all I got for now, Dabuz said a lot of good stuff. Just stay very mobile. Oh, I also get a lot of use out of jab whenever he gets close.
 

Dyyne

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.Also, you guys are right that landing smashes can be hard for kills. I usually set them up with n-air>up-smash.
Something I've started doing (in general, not just wario) after watching that Gonta vid is sh whistle->nair. It's pretty nice, so maybe that could help out a bit with getting that killing blow.
 

Fino

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matchup from an olis view:

general tips:
+at 1:00 minute warios waft is half charged and will kill you at 1/4 distance of fd at about 80%, the middle at 100% or at ledge at 70%, use the timer to figure out how charged his waft is, and whenever he uses it take note of the time so you can keep track, remember, at 2:00 minutes of charge time is when it is maxed and wario starts glowing, it will kill you at 40-50% at edge, 65% at 1/4 of fd, and 75% in middle of fd(these are all without di)

+you will always want to di+sdi up if you are hit by this move and is probably wario's most effective kill move against oli, super armor easily beats this out if timed right, you can tell if wario is planning to use waft when he either tries to grab you alot and then jump to you and if he jumps to you, runs away in same jump, jumps to you, runs away again, ect. while trying to purely lure you out just hitting your pikmin, always use this to your advantage to lure out his waft and out space it with similar tactics


+warios kill moves for this match will be, in order: waft, fsmash which can be seen and punished easily but will most like be used as you try to recover(from edge or not) or as you land on the ground and will kill you around 100% in middle of fd or 80% near edge, can be super armored and punished like crazy, upair can kill you around 120% from main platform on fd is easily super armored and can be easily seen, i shouldn't have to explain how easy it is to see coming


+at low percents watch out for warios grabs because thney can set you up for nasty gimps with fair or bair wop, if you get caught in either try to whistle through then bair him or di up and towards him then dair/fastfall bair


+don't try to hit wario with your grabs or smashes unless you will hit 100% because if you miss a good wario will always punish you in a nasty way and your chances are smashing/grabbing a good wario are low but if you do get one use the momentum to your full advantage if he doesn't have a great waft oppurtunity


+spotdodge is useless, end of story, whistle should always be used over airdodge, always, sheild at low percents is uselss, it sets you up in horrible positions, rolling is your only decent defensive move in this match so use it occasionally to quickly get out of a bad spot, never ever roll behind or to wario unless he is in air and you need to get to the other side of stage badly


+ban rc and stage strike/ban bf, rc is obvious and bf is a great stage for wario do to his great offensive air pressure game, the best stages in this matchup are fd, luigi mansion, and yi, sv isn't bad but if you banned the two prior stages and need to use a stage strike use it on sv


+purple pikmin are the best in this matchup, they will stop a majority of aerials approaches and give you openings, learn to love them and try to have atleast 3 with you at all time


+wario's bike tires will be you aonly true good setups for kill moves because the hitstun from them will allow you many oppurtunities for a kill move

how to play the matchup:

first off, see what kind of wario you are facing by throwing a few pikmin at him, does he airdodge, attack, sheild, spotdodge, ect. because whatever he does the most will be what you punish the most

most likely wario will start with an aerial approach, don't try to approach wario, just try to pivot grab him and throw pikmin, make sure to throw a pikmin away here and there so you can try and pluck a purple whenever you have time,

for most of the match until wario is at killing percents you will be playing a game of throw pikmin, figure out away to get away from wario, rinse and repeat, if you are being pressured by wario and can't get away from hi you have three main options:

pivotgrab his aerials and hope you get a grab, if you expect him to jump high into the air then attack shorthop upair,

if you expect a shorthop attack either up-b him when he jumps or jump into him with a nair or fair and hope you get your attack off first,

or if you have purples throw them instead, the only aerial that will stop them is his dair

your jab and dtilt will be extremely helpful in this matchup, wario will beat you if he is face up to you if you smash or grab, if he is still aerial and close enough for the jab use it to try and knock him back and follow up with a grab, purple toss, shorthopped aerial, ect., if he is ground level and in the same position try to dtilt thenupsmash if low percents or if he is high enough to be sent into the air i would use an upair

you will have to jump and move alot in this matchup, the minute you start to stay in a small area and not move much is the minute you will lose

when wario is 120% is when you will be able to start and try to kill him, remember, if he auto cancels his aerials you will not be able to kill him with anything or hit him so your best bet is just to try to predict and punish or use bike tires, you have no reliable way to kill him in this match, i already told you about when he can kill you(starting at around 70-80%) so i won't repeat that

when you are offstage you should try to super armor any of his aerials and if you are hit di up because unless it is his clap(upair) his movess, kill, and nonkill ar mainly horizontal knockback

on the edge is the worst position for both of you in this matchup, wario can easily punish you if you jump off, roll, attack, fall down then upair through stage, ect. so just mix it up and try to super armor through any of his attacks

when wario is on the edge if you think he will shorthop off try to fair him right as he jumps or dair if you think he will just jump up but the dair is tricky to do, also it can be down if he hangs on the edge past super armor(im not sure if you can grab him on edge but if you can abuse it as he grabs the edge or stays on too long) if he jumps then and back up if you do this only once per set if even that you can jump and try to bair him when he is below stage for a surprise stagespike, don't do it more then once or you will be punished, you can also just try to keep grabbing him as he touches the ledge






tl:dr version(i know this is long): keep jumping and moving away from wario while throwing pikmin(purples especcially) and don't be predictable




overall i would say this matchup is 57:43 wario's advantage
I quoted this for pure awesomeness of wall text. Good job dabz ;D (note, everyone say dabz b/c he checks his name XD.... jk) <3

I agree with most everything here :$

BUT

+purple pikmin are the best in this matchup, they will stop a majority of aerials approaches and give you openings, learn to love them and try to have atleast 3 with you at all time
I vote that every match-up factor in the ratios of pikmin pluck percentages cause this is how ridiculous some of our match-ups are XD
23.5:23.5:23.5:15:15
When the purple number goes up... it's our advantage (go to hilts chart :p)

**** it... I saw 50:45 Wario, and we get the extra 5% back when we have purple pikmin :p
lawl


~Fino
 

Cook

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I actually don't care much about purple pikmin in this matchup. I rely a lot on pivotgrabs with Wario, and we all know purples suck for that. I rely on purples in matchups where grabbing sucks, like against Peach.
 

ElemMasterZeph92

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So without any delay, we declare this match-up(rediscussion) to be equal or in someone's favor because everyone is just pointing out a variety of helpful facts/opinions and no ones coming to a conclusion(no rush, just curious).

Btw, nice wall of text dabuz ;)
 

Cook

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I think it's pretty even, but I could see 55:45 Olimar. Very stage dependent, though. Depends a lot on whether Wario can get early kills, so Wario can definitely pull big comebacks through gimps and farts if Oli isn't careful.
 

ElemMasterZeph92

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I think it's 55:45 Wario +/- 5% depending on pikmin.
Hmm, I don't know about that though Fino, it should stay 50:50 IMO. I believe this because like asc stated, its mostly stage and player dependent as both Olimar and Wario's arsenals counteract one another.


Perhaps we should start writing match-ups such as this where pikmin color is a serious factor.


~Fino
Hmm, that's a good idea Fino :) I always thought about something similar to that, you have my support in this matter.
 

Dabuz

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lol fino, how did you know i always check my name??????????? >.<


also, i think in this matchup pikmin usefullness goes in this order, purple>>>>>>blue>red=white>yellow
 

Zori

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meh maybe im better at this match-up because i play olimar then wario second, but ill agree for 43-57 so i can john when i lose
 

Dabuz

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actually i am changing my cps, it is luigi mansion=halberd>yi>fd

good wario stages: rc>bf=japes


halberd: no joke, i just used it against a wario i barely beat and got a two stock, it gives us an easier vertical kill which doesn't help wario much and the fact that the extra edge space is shortter to compensate for stage length helps oli
 

PhantomX

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Both. Halberd has an exceedingly low ceiling for really early kills, a huge platform you can hide under using tilts if Wario tries to come down from above, or grabs if he tries to come form the sides. The stage itself is also very long, so there's a lot of room for you to run around/away, and the stage extends really close to the horizontal blast zones, meaning there's not much distance for you to traverse to get back to the stage.

It's a decent Wario stage, but considerably better for you, I'd say.
 

Jadedlink

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I'm glad I have PhantomX. He does all the posting for me about this match up. I haven't read very many of the posts, but Excellence's numbers are about right. I'll probably post my thoughts later.
 

Dyyne

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actually i am changing my cps, it is luigi mansion=halberd>yi>fd

good wario stages: rc>bf=japes


halberd: no joke, i just used it against a wario i barely beat and got a two stock, it gives us an easier vertical kill which doesn't help wario much and the fact that the extra edge space is shortter to compensate for stage length helps oli
As I said earlier, what about Brinstar? Isn't that a really good wario level?
 

PhantomX

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I counterpick Brinstar against everyone unless they ban it. I've only ever lost one round on there... it's way too good for Wario, imo.
 

Dabuz

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him...i just fought wario and see why brinstar is so good, it can be bs for oli while not really for wario


also, what do we do for the wario or luigi matchup when our opponent knows how to avoid all our anti air attacks?


i just fought samboner for AIB playoffs,(won 3-1) and all it became was how hard i could camp and get lucky bs on him(halberd for 80% purple gimp plus 2 purple 80% upsmashes, and frigate for 2 80% purple+random pikmin gimps) i couldn't physically hit him with up-b except for once nor could i up air him so it was almost impossible, i would just get punished or have to take sheild pressure to attack most of the time hoping for a pivot grab/ outspacing him and smashing, what do we do with luigis who can do that AND stop oli's camp fully? wario is also annoying with this to but he can't fully stop olis camp i don't think, heck, luigi hits through our purples even
 

kirbywizard

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him...i just fought wario and see why brinstar is so good, it can be bs for oli while not really for wario


also, what do we do for the wario or luigi matchup when our opponent knows how to avoid all our anti air attacks?


i just fought samboner for AIB playoffs,(won 3-1) and all it became was how hard i could camp and get lucky bs on him(halberd for 80% purple gimp plus 2 purple 80% upsmashes, and frigate for 2 80% purple+random pikmin gimps) i couldn't physically hit him with up-b except for once nor could i up air him so it was almost impossible, i would just get punished or have to take sheild pressure to attack most of the time hoping for a pivot grab/ outspacing him and smashing, what do we do with luigis who can do that AND stop oli's camp fully? wario is also annoying with this to but he can't fully stop olis camp i don't think, heck, luigi hits through our purples even
Defeatism

I kid of course. Luigi's approach is not to great, I say Final Destination or any other large stages will work great, Nair is a problem. And if the luigi really loves his air game like the his mustache, it will be a pain grabbing him. Nair goes through up smash as well. I say run and attack when you see and open. That or listen to the demotivater
 

asob4

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55-45 wario
i've played fiction... needless to say it's a very stage dependent match up. the larger the stage the better
 

Excellence

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him...i just fought wario and see why brinstar is so good, it can be bs for oli while not really for wario


also, what do we do for the wario or luigi matchup when our opponent knows how to avoid all our anti air attacks?


i just fought samboner for AIB playoffs,(won 3-1) and all it became was how hard i could camp and get lucky bs on him(halberd for 80% purple gimp plus 2 purple 80% upsmashes, and frigate for 2 80% purple+random pikmin gimps) i couldn't physically hit him with up-b except for once nor could i up air him so it was almost impossible, i would just get punished or have to take sheild pressure to attack most of the time hoping for a pivot grab/ outspacing him and smashing, what do we do with luigis who can do that AND stop oli's camp fully? wario is also annoying with this to but he can't fully stop olis camp i don't think, heck, luigi hits through our purples even
If the Luigi knows how to deal with your anti-aerial moves then I'd still use them when there is a minimal chance of getting punished just to keep him from gaining complete control over the match. A lot of times, you may just want to let him land and shield his attack then jab him away and follow up with an FSmash or Pikmin Toss. I've played Jband and camping works when Luigi is on the offensive. He doesn't have much range and as long as your cautious when he lands and prep yourself for his Cyclone you should get juggled around too much.
 

ElemMasterZeph92

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Okay then, since we're pretty much done with this match-up, how about we move on?

I've noticed that some boards have already finished their character match-up discussions, we should try to do the same too.

So far we haven't discussed Bowser, CF, Ganondorf, Ike, Lucas, Mario, Ness, PT, or Samus(not a lot but still too many characters). We should try to rap things up pretty soon, for the better of those new as well as the boards.
 

gantrain05

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everytime luigi jumps, why not just literally stand underneath him and powershield his arials and then just shield grab him when he lands? i must be missing something about this matchup because its never been hard for my olimar.
 

DanGR

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everytime luigi jumps, why not just literally stand underneath him and powershield his arials and then just shield grab him when he lands? i must be missing something about this matchup because its never been hard for my olimar.
Olimar can't shieldgrab a short hopped fair->nair->jab approach, and with how good Luigi's jab cancel options are, shielding through the jab isn't really an option either.
 

asob4

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So far we haven't discussed Bowser, CF, Ganondorf, Ike, Lucas, Mario, Ness, PT, or Samus(not a lot but still too many characters). We should try to rap things up pretty soon, for the better of those new as well as the boards.
lucas is 65-35 our favor, maybe being generous but it's fine
me and oats agreed on this number

i two stocked a good bowser after i figured out how to play against him. he got my first stock but after that it was... yeah pretty heavily in my favor, i'd say 65-35 us as well

mario is confusing :/ his best approach vs us is nair, but pivot grabs stop everything
i'm thinking maaaaaaybe 60-40 oli favor

ike, ganon, cf... really??? just say 70-30 us and we're good to go hahahaha

ness and PT i have no idea

samus can be camped, just watch out for zairs
gotta learn that match up to fully understand it
i've only played one good samus :/
 

DanGR

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lucas is 65-35 our favor, maybe being generous but it's fine
me and oats agreed on this number

i two stocked a good bowser after i figured out how to play against him. he got my first stock but after that it was... yeah pretty heavily in my favor, i'd say 65-35 us as well

mario is confusing :/ his best approach vs us is nair, but pivot grabs stop everything
i'm thinking maaaaaaybe 60-40 oli favor

ike, ganon, cf... really??? just say 70-30 us and we're good to go hahahaha

ness and PT i have no idea

samus can be camped, just watch out for zairs
gotta learn that match up to fully understand it
i've only played one good samus :/
Agreed.

Oli has at least a slight advantage on Ness imo. He can't deal with pivotgrabs except by double jumping over them, and then after you do them for a while, you can sneak in random upsmashes, fsmashes and upairs and kill him early cuz he's light. He's a quicker, but much more aerial based Kirby with worse edgeguarding options, more shield pressuring options from the air, but horrible range on the ground. If you shield a bunch, pivotgrab even more, and learn how to deal with his short hopped fair->double jump-> fair/nair approach, you should be good.

Methinks PT is a gimicky character.

Squirtle can be pretty hard to fight if your opponent can utilize his jab really well. Fair->jab can't be shieldgrabbed and he's light, so he won't be comboed very easily. In a way, it's like fighting a much, much lighter Luigi with Wario-like aerial manuverability. The only reason it's not greater than a 60-40 his advantage is because of Squirtle's weight.

Ivysaur and Charizard don't have much on Olimar. They're comboed fairly easy (Charizard being ridiculously easy to combo), but Ivysaur has the bullet seed that can interupt some of Oli's combos if you don't space well enough. If Ivy misses a bulletseed or miss-times a random upsmash or something, throw a pikmin or two on him, and then proceed to grab. Ivy has the laggy grab and so he won't use it very often. Shield more then you would against say... Marth, and learn how much lag his attacks have so you can punish accordingly.

Charizard has some surprisingly good spacing options in dair, rocksmash, short hopped fairs/bairs, and fire so you just have to be more cautious with your spacing. It's really no contest and if you play really defensively, it shouldn't be very difficult.

I say Squirtle has it 60-40 on Oli, but Oli has it 60-40 on Ivy and maybe 65-35 on Charizard.
 
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