The Official Thread For the Sal Romano/Gematsu Leak

[TheAnvil]

I felt like making a mock-up of the (semi-official) final roster if anyone cares.

Icon Version:




(Chrom)(Random)
(Ch.Men)(Shulk)

Cut:

Text Version:

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosalina & Luma, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon

Wolf, Fox, Falco, Ice Climbers, Villager, Zelda, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf

Greninja, Lucario, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac, Pit, Palutena

Ness, Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Ike, Marth, Chrom, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Fighter, (Random)

Pikmin and Olimar, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Shulk
Cut: Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas

EXCEPTIONS:
-It is possible Lucas will be back, though Ness still takes priority as the game's Earthbound rep.
-It is possible there could be more than 12 newcomers, especially if there are going to be 48 characters and 4 cuts.

​

I doubt we're getting a 5 row select screen. The demo showed 3 rows, so 4 is probably our number (consistent with the Brawl demo/final look). 4x12, or 4x13 is the most likely outcome (personally I think it'll be the latter for a number of reasons).

Also, your layout is not consistent with the demo build, which is unlikely to change order (for example, Zelda was on the second row, starting it, Star Fox was after Zelda).

 

[Mechonis]

Shulk was in the leak.

I think BluePsychic meant... "Why is Shulk the only first party character behind the third party characters?"

Doesn't seem like there was any new information during the weekend pertaining to the leak. A long shot, but oh well. Still waiting on August.

 

[xornadoon]

Concerning cutting Lucas/Ness, I think it's totally feasible that even today they haven't decided which will be in the game. They probably always knew there would only be one earthbound rep and just created one character but haven't decided whose skin it will have in the final build of the game. Because of the custom special movesets they just have to choose which set of special moves will be the character's defaults and which will be secondary. It's not crazy to think that the leak was accurate as of the time we got the info

 

[FlappyFalco]

Didn't the leaker say something about DLC characters? Could Lucas and Squivysaurtle be added later? That's the only way I can see it working, veterans that were cut because of time constraints being added later for free, paying for newcomers would suck. Though the way Sal phrased it ("source doesn't like this as he thinks it's greedy") makes it sound like it'll be paid.

 

[FancysaurusRex]

When Has ROB ever been important to Nintendo? what has he done which qualifies him in Smash?

You mean besides saving the NES, Nintendo, and the video game industry?

To elaborate, after the video game industry crash, absolutely nobody wanted to carry or sell games. However Nintendo packaged ROB with the NES so that they could market it as a toy, rather than a console. It worked, and video games came back from the dead.

Don't get me wrong, Mother 3 is one of my favorite games of all time, but Lucas is one of the best of options to cut. However, seeing Toon Link return makes me think our only cuts might be Snake, Squirtle, and Ivysaur.

 

[HipsandChips]

ROB was new exciting technology, and while he definitely earned his spot in smash, It's a stretch to say that a peripheral compatible with only TWO games (two games, mind you, that very few people owned, and fewer people actually played) saved video gaming as we know it.

 

[Louie G.]

I have a little theory.

The guys at the Treehouse said that Mii Fighters have their own special slot, correct?

Well what if the Mii slot and Random slot can be toggled by turning customization on and off (and playing online)?

When customization is on, the slot is for Miis. Off or online, and it's Random.

Then everyone can shut up about there not being enough room for Mewtwo other characters.

 

[κomıc]

I felt like making a mock-up of the (semi-official) final roster if anyone cares.

Icon Version:




(Chrom)(Random)
(Ch.Men)(Shulk)

Cut:

Text Version:

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Rosalina & Luma, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon

Wolf, Fox, Falco, Ice Climbers, Villager, Zelda, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf

Greninja, Lucario, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac, Pit, Palutena

Ness, Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Ike, Marth, Chrom, Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Fighter, (Random)

Pikmin and Olimar, R.O.B., Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Shulk
Cut: Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucas

EXCEPTIONS:
-It is possible Lucas will be back, though Ness still takes priority as the game's Earthbound rep.
-It is possible there could be more than 12 newcomers, especially if there are going to be 48 characters and 4 cuts.

​

I think Lucas is safe. I think 50 characters are in the final release so for all we know there might be one more newcomer no one knows about outside of the Gematsu/Sal leak.

ROB was new exciting technology, and while he definitely earned his spot in smash, It's a stretch to say that a peripheral compatible with only TWO games (two games, mind you, that very few people owned, and fewer people actually played) saved video gaming as we know it.

Oh, it did. During that time, home consoles were pretty much dead and Nintendo strategically advertised the NES as "ROB, the toy comes with gaming console!" And not the other way around. I think it had a very limited release in New York only but it gained popularity and they eventually expanded sales across the US.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk was in the leak.

I mean why is he placed where he is.

 

[4cast]

That's like Saying Wii Sports saved Motion Control because it was packed in with the Wii And if ROB was so amazing and Saved the Video Game Industry why is he not a Secondary Mascot to Nintendo? plus he's not a video game character then begin with so that begs the question if ROB saved the industry why has he not been morphed into a Video Gaming character that we all love? or a Secondary Mascot? seems odd meh I still think we will have 4 Cuts Squirt Ivy Snake and ROB the RosalinaX rumour supports this idea plus it has lots of credibility too but then again they could easily add Squirt ROB Ivy Snake potentially Lucas as a Free DLC they can also go this route with Roy Dr. Mario Pichu and Young Link

 

[BombKirby]

ROB was new exciting technology, and while he definitely earned his spot in smash, It's a stretch to say that a peripheral compatible with only TWO games (two games, mind you, that very few people owned, and fewer people actually played) saved video gaming as we know it.

I thought it was more about the fact that he got people to buy the NES because they imagined ROB as being a lot more animated and exciting then he turned out to be. We went over this years ago in my first Video Game course in college so I forget the details, but it was something about getting the NES installed into a ton of homes during a time where no one wanted to buy any more consoles after the embarrassing consoles before the NES. ROB's poor advertising "tricked" people into buying it since people imagined a "robot that can play video games with you" as something a lot more magical.

 

[Louie G.]

Lucas will be cut over ROB.

If Ike and Lucario prove anything it's that an original moveset is enough to keep you in Smash.

Plus if G&W wasn't cut from Melee to Brawl, what makes you think that ROB would be cut from Brawl to Smash 4?

This is why I want to see ROB confirmed ASAP.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

You know, at first I was really upset that this leak would be true but I think I've kind of come to grips with it. I've already gotten a lot out of this roster that I wanted (Greninja, Palutena, ZSS), and there's no doubt the veterans I care about are coming back, so if this is the last of the newcomers then fine. If there are some secret ones, great. Either way I'm at peace with this leak/potential roster.

 

[4cast]

I've said once so i'll say it again ROB IS NOT A VIDEO GAME CHARACTER! that just disqualify him on the spot for a Character ok I sound like a ROB Hater but Believe it or not I played as him a fair bit but I honestly can't see him coming back I mean We have the RosalinaX Rumour as well to support this....Wait.......AHHHHH Your Louie! I'm sorry I did not see your name! XD Nice to see you again what have you been up to? oh yea Debate well I dunno I would not care if ROB is cut or Comes back either way even when I played as him something did not stick with me to him
And if ROB is de-confirmed I will have to give you a victory Dance Louie if He gets Confirmed then sure you can do a victory Dance To me!

 

[Louie G.]

I shall prepare my dance.

May I remind everyone that Mr. Game & Watch didn't even exist until Melee.
And ROB appeared in Mario Kart DS before Brawl...

So ROB is more of a video game character than Mr. G&W, technically speaking.

 

[4cast]

Technically speaking there is no specific Game and Watch so he has technically been in over 30 games for the Game and Watch
If I win Then I'll do some of Shantaes Belly Dancing to get the Groovy Mood up! but something I would like to ask if ROB is DLC would that mean we both Win since he was not technically in ''the game'' I'm a little Fuzzy on that bit though

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I've said once so i'll say it again ROB IS NOT A VIDEO GAME CHARACTER! that just disqualify him on the spot for a Character ok I sound like a ROB Hater but Believe it or not I played as him a fair bit but I honestly can't see him coming back I mean We have the RosalinaX Rumour as well to support this....Wait.......AHHHHH Your Louie! I'm sorry I did not see your name! XD Nice to see you again what have you been up to? oh yea Debate well I dunno I would not care if ROB is cut or Comes back either way even when I played as him something did not stick with me to him
And if ROB is de-confirmed I will have to give you a victory Dance Louie if He gets Confirmed then sure you can do a victory Dance To me!

R.O.B has an original moveset, which what Sakurai himself said he is shooting for. If anybody is getting cut this time around, due to lack of importance and original movesets it is this guy: Especially if Krystal is added to the Star Fox reps.

I don't see a real reason to cut Lucas. He is the protagonist of his own series and is not as close to clone material as Falco is to Fox. And if can come back there is no reason would be scrapped. I am not saying that Toon Link did not have a reason to come back, but I am saying the same reason that Toon Link comes back (being a protagonist in his own game) shows positive signs for Lucas.
I believe has dramatically hurt 's chances. Considering we already have a Water type Pokemon and I mostly hear people clamoring that we need more Pokemon type coverage. So that leaves our potential Pokemon veterans being: .

And then, there is this guy:

He has an original moveset; however, we already have , we would only get Snake if Sakurai allows 4 third party characters. What mainly hurts Snake is the fact that his recent games are coming to Xbox One and PS4, not the Wii U and adding him would be advertising them for the other systems.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I shall prepare my dance.

May I remind everyone that Mr. Game & Watch didn't even exist until Melee.
And ROB appeared in Mario Kart DS before Brawl...

So ROB is more of a video game character than Mr. G&W, technically speaking.

What is the Game & Watch for $500 Mr. Trebek.

EDIT: Falco isn't getting cut, he's been here since Melee; plus while his moveset is Fox's the moves themselves do different things and behave differently. For instance his reflector sends people upwards rather than downwards and his lasers stun. Lucas on the other hand was just Ness with easier to control moves that did less damage.


EDIT 2: Also Snake likely won't be in because I have strong doubts Kojima approached Sakurai asking for him to be in like he did with Brawl (which is the only reason why Snake was in mind you--Kojima had been asking Sakurai since Melee). Plus, if we do have another third party it'll likely be someone Retro that Sakurai can do a reboot on.

 

[Louie G.]

For the record, Sakurai finds to be a very necessary addition, claiming that a younger is the "true ".
on the other hand is expendable due to Mother being a small niche franchise that IMO can be represented fine with .
Remember that was cut for almost no reason, so I don't see why would be completely safe.

What is the Game & Watch for $500 Mr. Trebek.

Well Mr. G&W was never a character. He's based off of the men in the Game & Watch titles and the games.

There was never a Mr. G&W before Melee.

 

[4cast]

Ok looks like I'll probably start a war again... I don't see Falco Nor Wolf being Cut and in my opinion now I honestly don't see Mewtwo coming back at this point he'll have to compete with Jiggs who in my opinion I can never see being cut and don't bring up the relevance argument Sheik Debunks that every single time
Edit : If that's true why not cut Toon Link in Favor of Young Link? I already have a unique moveset for him and its not like they cannot do anything without him plus Ness was supposed to be cut in melee in favour of LUCAS so what's the point of bringing Ness back again? Meh Mother is always a Iffy Subject in my eyes although I do think we should have Ninten to represent Mother 1 for the sake of Fairness

 

[Oracle_Summon]

What is the Game & Watch for $500 Mr. Trebek.

EDIT: Falco isn't getting cut, he's been here since Melee; plus while his moveset is Fox's the moves themselves do different things and behave differently. For instance his reflector sends people upwards rather than downwards and his lasers stun. Lucas on the other hand was just Ness with easier to control moves that did less damage.

False, Lucas' Smash attacks, besides the stick, performed entirely different from Ness.

is more diverse to than is to .

Lucas moves behave differently than Ness and even has his own moves. Falco is the that never got cut.

You claim that is more diverse to than is to , it seems you have not used Lucas at all; otherwise, you would realize Lucas only shares his , and moves. The buttons count for something and that is something that just doesn't have.

 

[Louie G.]

and are in no competition with each other.
However is a lot more likely not because he's more diverse than (which is false) but because he's a two time veteran. No characters that have been in 2-3 games have been cut. Veteran status means a whole bunch.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Um check my Brawl main, I've played Lucas since launch.

EDIT: Falco may share moves with Fox, but they behave differently. That's still a new moveset. If two characters punch, but the punches behave differently they're different moves on a technical level.

 

[Dracometeor]

What is the Game & Watch for $500 Mr. Trebek.

EDIT: Falco isn't getting cut, he's been here since Melee; plus while his moveset is Fox's the moves themselves do different things and behave differently. For instance his reflector sends people upwards rather than downwards and his lasers stun. Lucas on the other hand was just Ness with easier to control moves that did less damage.


EDIT 2: Also Snake likely won't be in because I have strong doubts Kojima approached Sakurai asking for him to be in like he did with Brawl (which is the only reason why Snake was in mind you--Kojima had been asking Sakurai since Melee). Plus, if we do have another third party it'll likely be someone Retro that Sakurai can do a reboot on.

About falco's moves having unique effects while being the same move, I have 3 words, fox custom moves.

 

[4cast]

That's like Lucas and Snake would be easy Vets since they were supposed to be in Melee I will Maun over the loss of lucas though

 

[ElectricCitrus]

About falco's moves having unique effects while being the same move, I have 3 words, fox custom moves.

Ness custom moves. There Lucas is now mostly irrelevant. :/ You can use the custom move argument to pretty much discount everyone. The fact of the matter is, Mother while a very excellent series (one of my favorites) is incredibly niche and thus it's more likely that Lucas is cut than Falco. If a star fox rep were to be cut it'd likely be Wolf.

EDIT: Once again, the only reason Snake was meant to be in Melee/is in Brawl is because Kojima approached Sakurai and not the other way around. It's likely that unless Kojima has approached him again that Snake is cut.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

and are in no competition with each other.
However is a lot more likely not because he's more diverse than (which is false) but because he's a two time veteran. No characters that have been in 2-3 games have been cut. Veteran status means a whole bunch.

Being a character of your own game and being the Protagonist means alot more than a character that is nothing more than a Semi-Clone.

What reasons where Falco added to the game?

is not more diverse than to their counterparts, and here is the source:

is nothing more than a forgettable character who has done nothing significant in his games, unless you count Star Fox Adventures.

 

[4cast]

OR YOU CAN GIVE MOST OF LUCAS'S MOVES TO NESS TO BUFF HIM THEN REVAMP LUCAS'S ATTACKS TO BETTER SUIT HIM
EDIT: I knew Falco was a Semi clone but Jeez that's really lazy!

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Oracle see my above post: Mother is a niche series that hasn't been relevant since 2006 when Mother 3 launched. Unless they suddenly announce a US port of Mother 3, it's not going to be given a second thought when it comes to roster cuts. It's a shameful fact, but it's something we can't ignore. Star Fox on the other hand is getting a new wii-u game so is less likely to be considered for cuts because it's not a very niche series.

 

[Dracometeor]

Ness custom moves. There Lucas is now mostly irrelevant. :/ You can use the custom move argument to pretty much discount everyone. The fact of the matter is, Mother while a very excellent series (one of my favorites) is incredibly niche and thus it's more likely that Lucas is cut than Falco. If a star fox rep were to be cut it'd likely be Wolf.

EDIT: Once again, the only reason Snake was meant to be in Melee/is in Brawl is because Kojima approached Sakurai and not the other way around. It's likely that unless Kojima has approached him again that Snake is cut.

Except Lucas has unique airs tilts and smashes. Falco? Custom moves destroy any small shred of uniqueness that falco offers.

 

[4cast]

ok Citrus Tell Me when Has F-Zero ever been as relevant as Mother?
EDIT : Ok if we base Relevance off this Then Tell me why we still have Sheik in this game and not Impa?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

It doesn't matter if he has unique air-tilts, he's still from a niche series. Falco meanwhile has been in for longer, is a tournament favorite, is a fan-favorite, and is from a series that's about to come back thanks to the Wii-U game.

Look I'm not calling for the axing of Lucas, he's from one of my favorite games and he's my brawl main. But if this leak is true--which it likely is--that means there are going to be roster cuts and as much as it sucks to say it, Lucas is likely the one to get cut when you compare him to someone like Falco. A few unique moves likely doesn't mean much if he's from a series few people have played/would recognize. :/


EDIT: 4cast, f-zero is more relevant than Mother to western audiences because people have actually heard of F-Zero. There have been f-zero games since the SNES and while it's true the last one was on the gamecube, Captain Falcon has remained recognizable and has been in all the Smash games up to this point. He definitely isn't getting cut.

Part of relevancy is both time since last release and recognizability. Mother doesn't have much of the later, and it's been over eight years since the former.

EDIT 2: Further more, people have been clamoring for a new f-zero longer than they have for a mother 4. Again, Mother is one of my favorite series but even I can admit it's too niche to be given much importance when it comes to considering roster cuts.

 

[4cast]

Niche Series Tell me How is Mother ''Niche'' Yet Starfox and F-Zero aren't please enlighten us all tell me more about how Punch-out is not niche either?
EDIT: The first mother was on Famicom so its older then F-Zero Since when have people clamoured for A F-Zero more then Mother 4? Reconzibility is shot out the window when you realize that Game And Watch very Few people Knew and Know about same With Marth in Melee no one knew who he was Falco has a lot less uniqueness then Lucas also Your Argument that no one in the west knows who Lucas is when you find Out No one in Japan knew about Little Mac's existence nor cares about him at all and sorry I've heard the Mother favourite Franchise jig too many times for me not to be suspicious look I think both Falco and Lucas will come back I've already Explained what I think about ROB Squirt And Ivysaur I don't think so...but With Snake...
I'm iffy about on the one hand theres lots of things supporting his case while it hurts him at the same time


But while we are here does anyone want to hear my Young Link Moveset ideas? they are unique!

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Mother not being niche? Are you kidding me. It's niche as they get. The only reason people even talk about Mother 1, Earthbound, and Mother 3 is because of the strong cult following that rose up with the internet following the abysmal performance of Earthbound in the US. Starfox has had really successful runs and is recognized beyond the realm of core fansites for RPGs (which is where you see Mother discussed most often), F-Zero is fairly niche I'll give you that, but it's got a lot stronger of a following than Mother thanks to the fact it's older than Mother.

Punch-out is niche, but you're forgetting punch-out also has a Retro element to it. Mother is not yet old enough to be considered retro, and a lot of people were pulling for Little Mac.

EDIT:
Here's sales figures for each of the mother games in Japan (Mother 3) and both Japan and the US (earthbound)
Mother 3: roughly 330k
Mother 1: roughly 400k
Earthbound: roughly 300k (Japan) and roughly 140k (US).

Meanwhile the Star-Fox series:
Starfox SNES: 1.61m (US) and roughly 500k (Japan)
Starfox 64: 2.78m (US) and 640k (Japan)
Starfox Adventures: 900k (US) and 300k (Japan)
Starfox Assault: 680k (US) and 190k (Japan)

Even though these are all rough estimates (exact sales figures are nearly impossible to get a hold of barring petitioning Nintendo themselves). It's pretty obvious that even in it's home country of Japan mother was largely niche and underground.

EDIT 2: Again you forget that Game and Watch has been in for longer than Lucas, and has the whole "unexpected retro" angle going for him. Sakurai is pretty obviously nuts for random retro editions, and Game and Watch is about as retro as they get without creating a character out of Tennis For Two on an oscilloscope.

EDIT 3: For the heck of it here's some F-Zero figures to compare
F-Zero (SNES): 1.37m (US) and 400k (Japan)
F-Zero X (N64): 450k (US) and 290k (Japan)
F-Zero GX (Gamecube): 410k (US) and 190k (Japan)

So while it would seem F-zero would definitely be likely to get cut if we looked at sales figures and nicheness, it serves as a perfect example of why veterancy and western appeal plays a very large roll in who gets cut and why.

 

[4cast]

Actually if I have done my research correctly there is a 5 year gap between release of the original Punch-Out!! and Mother so I still consider it to be Retro But lots of people in Japan Did not know what Punch-Out was before Mac was in Smash so I guess its the same thing really

 

[ElectricCitrus]

True Little Mac is pretty much unheard of in Japan, but in the West everyone was wanting him and the West is where most games get sold so it's pretty obvious Sakurai would tend to bend towards them.

EDIT: and by everyone I mean he frequently topped user voted wish-lists on various sites.

 

[4cast]

Everyone In Japan wanted Daisy and Waluigi you can't use this argument to your advantage XD
Would you like to see my Young Link Move set?? Its really good!

 

[ElectricCitrus]

But that's the thing, It's Japan where games do get sold but not at the volume that they do in America. It's kind of an unfortunate result of how the world works, but we do consume the most media so our demands get weighed pretty heavily over others because it's more profitable that way.

Really I think the takeaway we should all get from this debate is that while we can likely determine certain factors for how Sakurai picks who is in and who isn't, we'll never know for sure because the man is clearly insane. I mean he's practically worked himself to death on every single Smash game so far.

 

[4cast]

I agree The Man clearly needs Mental help but Funfact out of the 9 newcomers we know of so far I guessed 8 out the 9 newcomers Including the Wii Fit Trainer that one was a collective Guess with me and my buddy Shinru

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Now that is pretty darn impressive. I managed to predict Little Mac, Palutena, and Megaman.

Anyways, my thoughts on who is getting cut based on this leak:
1.) Squirtle, because Greninja is a water type with a pretty unique moveset
2.) Wolf, because if there is going to be 3 starfox reps I'd imagine Sakurai would replace Wolf with Krystal or someone else.
3.) Lucas, because Sakurai hates everything
4.) Snake, because unless Kojima approached Sakurai he doesn't care.