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The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

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Camalange

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I think Sonic has a pretty fair chance of maybe taking a spot on mid tier. Low mid tier anyway. Doesn't matter too much to me anyway, I know what he's capable of ;O

:093:
 

Mmac

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I just think Sonic is a bad character solely because from what I've seen, his Matchups are pretty poor. They're not impressive at all.

Then again, I'm a person who think that Matchup's should be the number one thing that makes or breaks a position on a Tier List. I think tournament Results and Rankings are overrated and flawed
 

Barge

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I just think Sonic is a bad character solely because from what I've seen, his Matchups are pretty poor. They're not impressive at all.

Then again, I'm a person who think that Matchup's should be the number one thing that makes or breaks a position on a Tier List. I think tournament Results and Rankings are overrated and flawed
Yeah, because more people use a character than others it automatically makes a character higher on the tier list.
 

Ryusuta

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I'd agree that specific match-ups are, always have been, and always WILL be more important for a person to learn than tier position. Tier position doesn't tell a person anything useful at all.
 

Judge Judy

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Yeah, because more people use a character than others it automatically makes a character higher on the tier list.
That's a gross oversimplification, but in some ways that can be true. People want to win tourneys so naturally they go for characters winning tourneys, makes sense so far, right? Characters who win tourneys clearly are good characters who deserve higher placings, but characters who don't win tourneys aren't necessarily worse characters who deserve lower placings.

Now here's where things get kind of complicated...

Characters who do poorly in tourneys might do poorly for a variety of reasons: they might just be a bad character, they might have a specifically bad match-up against a character often used in tourneys, or they might be underplayed and/or underused in tourneys.

Most people assume a character that does poorly in tournaments is a "bad" character, which is a fair assumption, but isn't always true. Now assuming that a character is not just "bad", we can start looking at other reasons they might not be doing well in tourneys.

If a character has a specifically bad match-up against a character often used in tourneys, that will most likely limit that character's abilities to place well in tourneys, which will also cause that character to be less used in tourneys. A classic example of this in Brawl would be Fox VS Pikachu or any of the 5 infinited characters; these specific match-ups are disastrous to these specific characters and will most likely limit their use in tourneys because of such. Now, a character can overcome a terrible match-up with a high amount of skill but it's still clearly an uphill battle, but the simple solution is to just have a secondary.

You may have noticed a small paradox in what I've just explained, that a character that has a bad match-up will be underused yet the problem can be remedied by simply having a good secondary. Well, the reason some people don't like using secondaries is one of two things: fear that secondaries will become their main or that they no longer are "purely" representing or maining their character. However, this should not greatly affect that character's rep in tourney because most players can accept having a secondary, but this still is a point against that character's "popularity" since it makes them less attractive in the competitive scene, especially if that character does not have any particularly great strengths. This leads us to our next topic of underused/underplayed characters.

Characters may just be underrepresented in tourneys, which can limit their ability to display victories at a larger scale in tourney. An argument against the relevance of this, is that if these characters are "good" they should have mostly wins, which is fair but slightly one-sided; with a low amount of tourney data it is difficult to make accurate predictions on well a character can do in tourneys, assuming these characters are underused in tourneys. However, poor tournament rankings add another point against these characters' "popularity" and partly cause a vicious cycle of under representation in tourneys.

Characters might be underplayed for what I will call "popularity". Now popularity can mean a great deal of things but I will simply define it as "reason or reasons of why a character is used in tourneys". Now you might want to read back a bit now to get a better understanding of what I meant by the term "popularity", Ima trickster arent I?

Characters can become popular for of a variety of reasons: tourney results, match-ups, and/or people just might like them for reasons other than their actual metagame

Time for some complicated but less complicated than before stuff…

Characters who well in tourneys will be most likely be more often in tourneys, logical, simple, and obvious, right?

Characters who have great match-ups will most likely be used more often used in tourneys. So, if character has great match-ups and is known do well in tourneys, they'll most likely be more often used in tourneys. However, characters with good match-ups may not be often used which leads us to "things outside the metagame to fill in the gap in popularity".

Things outside the metagame that affect a character's "popularity" might be: that people just like how that character looks, a character's character (try saying that five times fast), a character's background, a player's background, and/or that the character is "popular" which can dissolve into nothing more than a vicious cycle. Basically, someone might just like Ike or Snake because they're "badasses", but disregard Yoshi or Mario because they're "childish" or "unattractive". Alternatively, a certain playstyle preference might affect people's decisions, such as some with power=Ike, Ganondorf, Snake, etc., yet stay away from things like balance=Mario. People also might just choose a character because they heard that that character is "good" for whatever reason which can dissolve into a vicious cycle as people tell other people. People might just use a character because everyone else is using them, and it becomes a trend that can dissolve into a vicious cycle.

If character is not "popular" it is because they are lacking what makes a character "popular".

In conclusion, I think match-ups are more important than tourney results. I still think tourneys results are a factor, but they need to be very carefully considered before going off on raw data. Same could be said of match-ups, but I think that match-ups are much more important on their own to progressing the metagame than just tourney result, even though tourney results and match-ups can go hand-in-hand at times; tourney results can occur from a character's match-ups, but it's the match-ups that truly define the character, not the tourney results themselves. Match-ups need to be carefully considered too but not in the same sense that tourney results do; things need to be carefully considered in order to come up with accurate enough raw data to go off of for that character.

If I missed anything, tell me.
 

Ravin

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I dont see too many D3's running about the tournament scene to be honest, at least not on the west coast.

At best someone picked them as a CP, but like, that was it.
 

JOE!

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the thing I allways think of when seeing tier lists based on tournies is:

If enough people were roaming arouns that were just nasty at Cpt Falcon, wnning big tournies all around the place, the system would class him as high-top tier

that's flawed in that you can use any character in that statement :/

A tier llist based on just matchups in general would be much more accurate, and unsubjective to player skill (which 85% of the time is the real match winner)

anothe rissue is that alot of characters are really good once some one's good at them, but are rather hard to pick up in play, where as on a character like ROB, all you need to lean is projectile managment, Dsmash, Nair and F/Dtilt

the game simply hasnt been played around with enough to se this list in stone, and tourney results are too chaotic to use as data for one
 

kr3wman

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Brawl Matchup Data, from what I've seen, is one of the least precise matchups rates.
 

JOLT143

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GOD I LOVE TIERS! Nothing will make me happier than destroying my friends' mains (Mk, DDD, Marth and Rob) With my low tier chars(Samus, Jiggs, and CF) Let the pain begin!
 

choknater

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Sonic, along with Fox, are very much adaptation characters because of their speed. The ability to make them good requires a fresh unique playstyle for EVERY matchup. Unlike the top tiers, you have to find a different way to play each matchup because one strategy does not work against all characters. These qualities are what hold them back. It takes quite a talented reaction/adaptation-based player to use them well in every matchup, and even then they have to accept their bad matchups.

Then again, what if they covered each other's weaknesses...


A Sonic/Fox main... that would be interesting :)
 

Teran

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I think Diddy Kong should be moved up a bit to top of high or maybe lower top. I think he's a really difficult character to face in the right hands, his bananas are insane for starters...
 

Morrigan

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He will move up, I'm sure about that

I wanna know if the SBR is already creating the next list, since the metagame has changed a lot since the release of this list
 

PKNintendo

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I just think Sonic is a bad character solely because from what I've seen, his Matchups are pretty poor. They're not impressive at all.

Then again, I'm a person who think that Matchup's should be the number one thing that makes or breaks a position on a Tier List. I think tournament Results and Rankings are overrated and flawed
I think Sonic has decent matchups...

Yes Matchup's>Tourney results.
 

exidid

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Sonic is placing OK at tourney results (like 16th or something).

I used to think that Sonic was horrible because of priority and blah blah blah, but after hearing some sonic mainers and seeing him raise in the tourney placements I'm starting to think he is a solid underrated mid tier character.
 

Camalange

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If he has decent matchups he should be placing at tourneys and he is not.
:/

18 Sonic (17 top8, 7 top4, 4 top2, 8 wins) - 123.5

Sonic places much higher than any other low tier character, heck, even some mid tier characters. I've said this before, Sonic pretty much drifts around rank 16-18. He's been claiming this spot consistently against 36 other characters. Either every character below Sonic is not being used in tournaments at all, or people are taking places with Sonic. Don't say he doesn't place at tournaments. I'm not saying Ankoku's list is 100% accurate, but we must be doing something right.

As for match ups, he doesn't have the best, but things just look a lot worse on paper. When put into action, there are a lot of things Sonic can do. I'll state this again, Sonic is based heavily on punishment and mindgames, which is why he's low on the tier list and overlooked. Sadly, these attributes can't be discussed when debating match up "ratios" so I find tournament results to be a more accurate display of character potential than someone saying "lol sonic cants kill an no priority. 60:40 kirby's favor".

:093:
 

fox219

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This doesn't make sense. lucas is good in a pro's hands. Toon link has a hardly any disadvantages. Sheik has many advantages! :dedede:=fat untamed bird who has a disadvantage to link!
 

fox219

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from what I've noticed, most of the lower airspeeds are higher than higher airspeeds
 

LumpyCPU...

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DDD is a penguin. Which is technically a bird.
penguin's are my second favorite animal,
my third favorite bird,
and my first favorite fish.

i thank eric mathews for that last one.

edit: a sonic/fox main would most certainly not be interesting. lol
 

Ravin

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Watching a Fox main makes me smile. Not in a good way.

Ill simply pick Shiek.

The rest is history.
 

Camalange

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Watching a Fox main makes me smile. Not in a good way.

Ill simply pick Shiek.

The rest is history.
Or Pikachu.

10evilchaingrabsofcrazydoom

:093:
 

Barge

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Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon
Huh...why is he below the mother boys again?
Yoshi has good recovery, good kill moves, wonderful aerials.
It seems like the SBR rushed his placement.
Guess they haven't played a good yoshi before :laugh:
 

Ryusuta

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So, going off of everything said so far, everyone on the tier list should move up except for Jigglypuff. :laugh:
 

Toesrus

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I'd love to see a Brawl+ tier list. I'm thinking Ike would be pretty high. Ganon too.
 
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