Well that would fix a problem right there. We need to clear up the ambiguity in the ruleset.
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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
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How else do you expect to learn? When we use data found in character boards, they accuse us of being "out-of-date/using out-of-date data". If we're not allowed to bring up a character to talk about him, not allowed to ask anyone after we make a mistake due to not knowing enough about the character, what then? Do you ACTUALLY expect us to start using the character to learn everything, instead of acting like a community and SHARING the information?
Your tone always sounds like you're dead serious. :|
Guess I should learn to remember the internet isn't really serious business. :/
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Whether or not it's intended as stalling, the fact remains that it can be used as such and there's no enforcable discrete manner of differentiating between the two, therefore it should be banned.
It's because stalling is a nebulous concept and it's difficult to be sure when somebody is actually stalling or just using a technique with that potential to obtain a better position.
That's the reason why it's far better to ban stall tactics instead, and leave the "no stalling" rule as a statement of principal.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
If that option were to give you a lead, then yes.
You can not call stalling over avoidance, and that too being to protect yourself.
Zucco
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,162
No, no, I'm sorry, it's my fault.
I'm just a very dry person online.
I guess I could be more serious though...
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Not with that signature of yours
But that's what stalling is! What you're doing when hiding behind a wall where your opponent will never reach you safely until your advantage is far larger than before, but you CAN reach him and possibly even kill him before he reaches you, is what the SBR-B's definition for stalling is. The REAL definition for stalling is excessively avoiding your opponent with the purposes of him never reaching you and you running the timer out to end up the victor! Camping is simply revolving around projectiles/hard-to-punish attacks/hard-to-punish tactics, spamming is depending on one/two projectiles/attacks/tactics, stalling is running the timer with whatever means necessary! Even if it's seen as "avoiding dangerous confrontations", when you're at a large advantage there's no need at all to plank or scrooge, you're already pretty much the victor, so what you're doing is avoiding excessively.
"Stalling for time" is running out the clock with an advantage so that you can win without confronting your opponent, that's like denying competition since you don't want to pit your skills versus the other variable! Do you know how MK got so infamous? Players started "stalling for time" and winning more than they should've been winning. If Pit does the same thing, it's still stalling.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
So, according to what you're saying, If you are being/about to be pressured you will not have the right to avoid even if it's possible for you to do so.
Either, you're getting the SBR's ruleset mixed up, or you've been arguing for the wrong scenario this whole time.
Deliberate stalling is stalling for no reason to only gain an advantage.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Honestly, you can justify any kind of stalling under that, period.
That's why banning stall tactics is much more effective.
Or, you could use this definition for a more specific form of stalling: waiting for the clock to run out by only enabling one option for both players the entire match voluntarily, and that is for player A to be able to hit player B and not vice-versa. Even if that is your safest option, you should only rely on it when it's your only available option at the moment. This is why there's so much hate against planking and scrooging: Player A can hit player B, but in the majority of scenarios player B can't do anything to player A, for the rest of the match.
Why only rely on it when it's your only option? Gliding under the stage to avoid an inevitable death by a brickwall set-up by Snake is okay in my eyes, there is NOTHIGN wrong with that. Gliding under the stage to avoid any and all confrontations even when you'll win that confrontation hands down is frowned upon for that same reason: you have options, but you choose not to do them and just keep waiting for the clock to run out.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
If that confrontation were to harm you, then, there's nothing wrong with the 'act of stalling', you're not stalling when you put yourself in a stalling position for the benefit of yourself.
In this scenario, Pit gliding under the stage is for the benefit for the player not getting hit/pressured, and, once again, this does not make it 'stalling'.
Really, I could run away a whole match and justify it under our current stalling criteria.
So is choosing any fast character and circle-camping around Hyrule Castle. If I gain an advantage and run away, I could just say "I'm trying to look for an opening, but since he's going to punish me if I get close right now, I'm gonna stay away until he's vulnerable". Is it still stalling, or is it something else now?
In MY opinion, no matter your motive, you're stalling out the clock. As a player bent on following rules, you have to be careful to ALWAYS abide the rules, no matter what motive you may have.
Therefore, scrooging whenever an opponent gets close and planking when you regain distance falls under "circle-camping", which is another form of stalling.
Browny
Smash Hater
Where then, is the dividing line between this not being stalling, and sonic using HA under the stage is stalling? Or even scrooging compared to HA for that matter.
Probably better for sbr-b members to answer that one (scrooging-HA), although I'm not holding my breath for a logical response.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
But this would only be for those couple of rare (or uncommon) occurrences that would occur. Now, these happening wouldn't be that often, from what I'm understanding. These 'acts of stalling' also wouldn't give you much of a lead unlike others.
Running/stalling around Hyrule is an awful example. It may benefit you to avoid getting hit, much like Pit gliding under a stage, but that, at the same time, would also be consistently deliberate.
they would help retain leads, and such acts of stalling actually happen. Look at MK gliding under the stage and tornado'ing over it. Look at Pit both using WoI under the same stage as well as gliding, in the examples given to me by both you and humble (Pit ledgecamps and planks, then scrooges away if you get too close).Jigglypuff has the ability to rising pound across the bottom of the stage and back until she is relatively safe enough to grab a ledge/not get spiked (although much rarer, since getting an advantage with her is too hard)...
I think it fits the definition for stalling, and should not be done in a tourney. What? Gliding under the stage.
Well, the example worked and you got my point. We can stop with it if we want to, but I'll use it again whenever. Circle camping is stalling, and Hyrule Temple was primarily banned because it allows for easy circle-camping.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
And how do we tell the difference?
That's why tactics with the ability to stall get banned, because it's difficult to tell the difference between "trying to get a better position".
We banned Hyrule for this, and we should ban scrooging for this.
So, since scrooging is a variation of stalling by definition and careful examination, we can safely say that Pit's ability to "glide away from the opponent under the stage if they get too close" is immediately taken from him. What now? There are a very good amount of characters who can get Pit out of there, and he can do nothing but get knocked out of there.
We about we show some consistentcy and ban the stages it's applicable on??
That is, if impose any rules against it at all.
That leaves... Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and Delfino Plaza as far as I remember the SBR-B's tourney-viable stages.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
you forgot castle siege aka best stage ever
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Well, depends, is universally removing the ability to glide under the stage worth the stage loss?
Right, sorry about that.
That banning stages because of scrooging is stupid. You limit WAYYY too much simply because of a tactic applicable by 2/3 characters, only 1 character who actually matters at the top of the metagame (MK). It is definitely not worth it.
Well instead of wasting both my time and yours, help me out here by naming the stages left after banning the ones that let players scrooge!
Yeah, running away through an area completely unaccessible to the vast majority of the cast. So you're completely outside of the range of the enemy at all times with no exceptions, while you can still hit your enemy, until the timer runs out.
Oh yeah, reeeeal cool. Definitely not stalling at all.
Did you know Japan has a rule against scrooging? They say that "characters can only glide once under the stage, then they can't do it again UNTIL they touch the ground"... Which puts them in a vulnerable position for other campers/characters with reflectors/fast ground/air-speed characters/people who expected the scrooge and are waiting for them on the other side or about to reach the side you're scrooging towards.
Edit:
Ah, okay then. I can wait for your replies. Take as much time as you need.
Why not pick one of the characters that can deal with it.
Or you could use your stage ban to get rid of Smashville, to open up the doors for even more characters. I'd guess around 15, 17, or even more could handle it then.
There are several ways to deal it, and quite simply, I'm not satisfied with what this community had done to handle it.
Or you could use your stage ban to get rid of Smashville, to open up the doors for even more characters. I'd guess around 15, 17, or even more could handle it then.
There are several ways to deal it, and quite simply, I'm not satisfied with what this community had done to handle it.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The main issue is that you can literally run away forever with no possibility of your opponent ever reaching you which is equivalent to infinite invincibility.
You run away onstage and you'll eventually reach the ledge, continue running, you'll eventually hit the blast-zone. This specific pattern makes it so you can always keep the stage between you and a significant portion of the cast.
Assuming Dangr's research was correct of course.
Then he picks DDD and takes you to bridge of Elden...
Same principal, almost literally auto-win for a character against the majority of the cast.
Adumbrodeus, I understand the metaphor about infinite invincibility, and also that there are other characters that are capable of doing the same thing... Albeit likely only a few- example being Wario... You ever get camped by a wario on battlefield while using Zelda? I can guarantee you that it's impossible for her to touch him if done right.
I don't see how banning it for MK can be justified when others can practically do the same thing. And this is just one of my reasons. (It'd take too long to explain them all right now, so I'll argue them as they come up. Dx)
And you'd be surprised how much research I've done on this. *hint* *hint*
edit: this post didn't come off as smoothly as I would have liked. Perhaps I should wait till I have regular computer access for me to post much about this subject.
I don't see how banning it for MK can be justified when others can practically do the same thing. And this is just one of my reasons. (It'd take too long to explain them all right now, so I'll argue them as they come up. Dx)
And you'd be surprised how much research I've done on this. *hint* *hint*
edit: this post didn't come off as smoothly as I would have liked. Perhaps I should wait till I have regular computer access for me to post much about this subject.
Even if you didn't convey your message across perfectly, I still feel the need to answer... :/Adumbrodeus, I understand the metaphor about infinite invincibility, and also that there are other characters that are capable of doing the same thing... Albeit likely only a few- example being Wario... You ever get camped by a wario on battlefield while using Zelda? I can guarantee you that it's impossible for her to touch him if done right.
I don't see how banning it for MK can be justified when others can practically do the same thing. And this is just one of my reasons. (It'd take too long to explain them all right now, so I'll argue them as they come up. Dx)
And you'd be surprised how much research I've done on this. *hint* *hint*
edit: this post didn't come off as smoothly as I would have liked. Perhaps I should wait till I have regular computer access for me to post much about this subject.
Wario aircamping Zelda because of how slow Zelda is overall is also another form of stalling. He's stalling the match so time can pass by enough for him to get his waft. If he doesn't need his waft, then he's just timing out the player because he can and wants to. Yet another form of stalling: excessive air camping! One could aircamp until the opponent throws out an attack then jump in to punish (which I do with Kirby a bit), but when you let chances pass by simply because you don't want to approach, that's when you're stalling. Very hard to enforce, which is why the SBR-B hasn't come up with a rule for it... Much like scrooging and planking and whatever else.
Unless you can actually read their mind, you don't know why they're doing it. For all you know, they're air camping to find a good enough opening. If that takes the entire match, so be it. You can't legitimately DQ someone for doing that. I think you understand that.
Now... THE SAME thing applies to MK on Smashville! You don't even need to use a glide to do his circle camping on that stage. (Read that thread about it.)
Now... THE SAME thing applies to MK on Smashville! You don't even need to use a glide to do his circle camping on that stage. (Read that thread about it.)
Death Arcana
Rum is for Drinking
Sonic is going up again thanx to X
It's not that you NEED to do it to circle-camp, it's that it's yet another option you can rely on for circle-camping. If regular dair camping fails, if tornado-spamming is getting beat out, and if your opponent is approaching you while you're planking which is very dangerous for you since you might lose your lead... Gliding to the other side of the stage is your newest option of stalling for the clock to time out while you've kept the advantage for almost the entire match.
And yes, scrooging isn't banned because it's a very useful recovery tactic as well, same goes to planking. The point is, if the rules were to get stricter than they are now and take with them the few tactics with the largest potential to become banning techniques, scrooging would be one of them... BUT! Since like you said, it's impossible to take something like this away from a recovering player due to how useful this option is for them, no one has 'touched' the issue... Yet it doesn't change the fact that "scrooging" as Pit in order to evade all contact between both players except that of your projectile with his hurtbox, is still stalling.
D
Deleted member
Guest
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Jrob, stop.
You have no clue what you are talking about.
There is nothing wrong with camping, but when the top tier is absolutely unable to hit you while you do it (low tiers are low tiers for a reason), then it is an unfair tactic.
Scrooging uses up a ton of clock, and is also impossible to punish (unless ur MK)
Pit can do it but not as well, and pit isnt good to begin with, as well as having terrible options for getting of the ledge.
Jrob, stop.
You have no clue what you are talking about.
There is nothing wrong with camping, but when the top tier is absolutely unable to hit you while you do it (low tiers are low tiers for a reason), then it is an unfair tactic.
Scrooging uses up a ton of clock, and is also impossible to punish (unless ur MK)
Pit can do it but not as well, and pit isnt good to begin with, as well as having terrible options for getting of the ledge.
Unfair? Is that the bar nowadays?
Let's assume it should be banned for whatever reason.
How are you going to do exactly that?- ban it. Leave it up to a judge to decide if he's camping to run the clock? Based... on... what the judge feels is the camper's intent...? What else?
Rules against gliding under the stage? In reality, hindering his recovery. You may as well admit the character should be banned, and leave it at that.
Ledge grab limits? He can only run the clock for as long as it
takes to grab the ledge X amount of times...? (60 can last you a good 5 minutes, btw.)
How about for the characters that can "stall" on-stage? I addressed this earlier. You gonna try to limit them as well?
Let's assume it should be banned for whatever reason.
How are you going to do exactly that?- ban it. Leave it up to a judge to decide if he's camping to run the clock? Based... on... what the judge feels is the camper's intent...? What else?
Rules against gliding under the stage? In reality, hindering his recovery. You may as well admit the character should be banned, and leave it at that.
Ledge grab limits? He can only run the clock for as long as it
takes to grab the ledge X amount of times...? (60 can last you a good 5 minutes, btw.)
How about for the characters that can "stall" on-stage? I addressed this earlier. You gonna try to limit them as well?
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