The Official(renamed AGAIN) Balance thread. Now with nerf, again...?

[Speedsk8er]

Okay, so Melee had some good characters and some bad characters. It also had some ****ty characters and "WTF BROKEN!!" characters. The game, while not completely broken was pretty imbalanced. What do you people suggest happens to some of these characters. (Note:I made this under the assumption that all Melee characters will return to Brawl, but they supposedly won't.)

NERFS
Sheik- OMG NUBE CHARACTER. Sheik is the bane of MANY players here at Smash boards. Her moves flow like diarrhea and will mostly always end in a Fair or Uair. Introduce a LITTLE lag to some of her moves and rework her Fair/Uair to make them not KO moves, thus increasing the importance of switching to Zelda for the KO.

Fox- He isn't top tier for no reason. Fox is ********. Oh my ****ing god. Then things that his shine opens up for him are sickening. If his Shine is still going to be jump-cancelable, take some of his power away, particularly in his Usmash(I don't agree with adding lag to his shine like some other guys do.) Also, shine shouldn't be such a devastating gimp move. Maybe make the stun a little less(in the air) or make it a Meteor-maybe?

Falco- -_-Do something about SHL. It's so aggravating. And Dair is stupidly broken.

Marth- as an ex-Marth main, I can speak form experience that Marth is a bit of a noob character too. Give him a little less range and introduce a little lag to his forward smash. Also, make his Dair a meteor across all versions and not just PAL. Also, if he was supposed to be the speed to Roy's power, make him WEAKER and lighter than Roy. Jesus...

Samus- Samus is the closest thing to perfection that Smash Bros has. Great melee, Great distance, infinite recovery, good range, and pretty good airgame. >_< NERF THIS *****. Take some of her power away, make her a little lighter and FOR GOD'S SAKE, HER SUPER? NO!

Captain Falcon- KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! The most epic move in the history of Smash Bros. LOL Captain Falcon has no business being this fast, powerful, AND combo friendly. Take some of his power away. Not a lot because I don't want him being Ness-ified.

Ice Climbers- I hear alot about how the Ice climbers are broken characters. As an IC main, I can kinda see that but the thing is that the grab is the only thing that they have. Maybe they can nerf the knockback of their smashes so everyone will be happy? I dunno.

Peach- The only thing I want to see taken from here is her hitstun. Everything else is fine, IMO.




Buff

Bowser- What the hell, Nintendo? Is this how you treat your most well-known villian? Jesus... I acknowledge that he is powerful but dude, give him some range. If you give him some range, I can deal with him being so slow.

Ness- Ness is one of my mains. I actually love him just the way that he is, but I'd like to see a few things change. Make his PSI Magnet like Fox's Shine, in that it's a 1 frame(or just really quick) move and jump cancellable. Also, make the reflector hitbox for his bat larger. Jesus, it's so useless. A lille Grab range would be nice too.

Young Link- Young Link is also one of my mains. I don't want to see him drastically changed, but Luigi-fied, maybe. Give his sword the ability to deflect energy projectiles with smash attacks. Say Samus fired a charge shot at you, you could forward smash it back to her, or you could USmash it at the CF on the platform above you. Also, make the hitbox for his Fire spike a little bigger. Hookshot, what's up? MAKE IT LONGER!

Mewtwo- WTF?! MEwtwo is supposed to be the ultimate pokemon! Why is he so crap in Melee? I play Mewtwo often and when I get sent out at 70% from Falcon's KNEEEEEEEEEEE, it makes me question what Nintendo was thinking. LOL, Give him Psychic Attack.

GaW- GaW quickly became one of my mains because he's so **** fun to play as. Of course, why is his sheild so bad? And why are his smashes laggy?


I would go on, but this is just depressing me. That, and I wanna see what you guys have to say.

 

[Speedsk8er]

*bump*, please?

 

[Sensai]

Ok, I'll bite.

I think this thread, in it's current form, is flame-bait. As much as I love seeing idiots get flamed, it's just a dumb idea to encourage it so blatently.

I DO however think that this thread is a good idea for serious conversations concerning this type of thing. We all remember what the move from 64 to Melee was like for Kirby/Pika/Ness, so it's safe to say that some people will be a tad nerfed (and others buffed) to balance the new game out in a way undone before.

So, with that, I throw in some serious contributions to this thread:

Nerf for Fox: taking away the JC Shine would definitely move him down in the tier list at least a little bit. That'd be a good idea, IMO.

Nerf for Falco: same as Fox? I dunno honestly, as I don't really have many problems with Falco. His Dair needs some bit of work, though. Make it more DIable?

Nerf for Sheik: the Dthrow. Also, give her Fair a little more start-up/lag time? All of her moves set up for that, which is what makes her so difficult to beat. The fact that at the BEST DI you STILL are going downwards...it's absurd.

Samus/Falcon: no nerfs needed.

Nerf for ICs: the chaingrab. Seriously, that's about the only thing they've got.

Marth: make it so that his grab range makes sense, and make it so that every move doesn't have a tipper. Seriously, the Fsmash I can understand, but EVERYTHING?

There. You got an answer.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Nerf for ICs: the chaingrab. Seriously, that's about the only thing they've got.

Are you saying nerf their ability to chain-grab? Or are you saying that the chain grab is the only thing that they have so it shouldn't be nerfed?


I'm not trying to make this thread flamebait. I'm actually trying to stir up positive conversation. It's not like I'm saying, "OMFG these characters are teh geh!! NErf!!!!"

 

[Kazuya]

I think Marth in the PAL version is pretty reasonable. I'll admit he is stronger than others, but Fox out classes Marth on Speed and Power.

His Up Smash, Shine, Forward Smash and Grabs are quite powerful. What does me most though is Up Smash, it can kill Marth if he was 82% (Takes him upto 100%). If it's over 90% He will kill Marth with one hit, which is a bit toooooo strong, especially since hitting your person up has no distance factor. Fox could FSmash Marth from the left of the stage to the right and Marth would most likely survive. But an UpSmash from anymore= Death.

Just nerf his Up Smash.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Oh wow. Wow. Wow, like you were making some SLIGHT sense on that shiek thing, but your post is just over the top excessivly arrogant and annoying.

Your ideas are dumb, you're obviously a very frustrated individual.

OMG BROKEN. how would you like your computer broken so you cant make any more crap posts like this?

Hey, genius. Broken is good. Its not bad. Broken characters are the best. A noob with marth will still get ***** by a pro Kirby.

It all comes down to skill in the end, look at AZN's pikachu, he can **** noobs with it. This game goes beyond the characters, I find. Tiers apply but skill is the deciding factor.

Falco- -_-Do something about SHL. It's so aggravating. And Dair is stupidly broken.

Just ****ing wow. You're way more ****ing annoying than SHL could ever be. TYPICAL scrub attitude towards falcos movest.

I cant even read this ****ing thread im gonna blow a gasket. **** this ****ing ****. Argh.

 

[Problem2]

The only thing close to cheap about Samus is her missiles which may be a little bit strong for a quick projectile. She's floaty and slow, which balances out all her good points.

 

[Aminar]

If all the characters were even the game would be more fun.

However I don't want anybody nerfed too much, maybe Foxes Up smash, Shieks Fair, and peaches Dsmash, and Marths grab range, but not much else. Howeveri'd like to see everybody boosted to a better level. Nothing is more fustrating than having your favorite character nerfed, instead make the bad characters worse.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If all the characters were even the game would be more fun.

However I don't want anybody nerfed too much, maybe Foxes Up smash, Shieks Fair, and peaches Dsmash, and Marths grab range, but not much else. Howeveri'd like to see everybody boosted to a better level. Nothing is more fustrating than having your favorite character nerfed, instead make the bad characters worse.

You're reasonable ^^

Yeah I dont see why we have to nerf what we have... like Falcos amazing moveset. Rather they could just make bowser faster and have his moves come out faster or something, his moves themselves are amazing. I think if bowser was fast hed be an amazing character.

 

[Speedsk8er]

*why won't you shut up....?

Oh wow. Wow. Wow, like you were making some SLIGHT sense on that shiek thing, but your post is just over the top excessivly arrogant and annoying.

Your ideas are dumb, you're obviously a very frustrated individual.
.

And you're a douche-bag elitist *******. Don't ****ing talk down to me like you're the god of Smash Bros. I'm over the top and arrogant? Who's the guy that just berated me(for no reason) and still didn't add anything to the convo? Gargle my nuts, *******.

I KNOW it comes down to skill. If I didn't think that it came down to skill, I'm would be using Top-tier characters, now wouldn't I? Instead of *****ing, flaming and being an all-around asshat, post something constructive that actually adds to the conversation. I'm sure with all this elitism coming out of you, you have PLENTY to show us.. *rolls eyes*

My GOD, I HATE people like you. Makes me question why I play games competitively.

----------

Oh yeah, you guys just made me remember. Marth's grab range is absurd. That could use a little reworking, too.

 

[Banks]

nerfing is gay, it will only make characters suck, ie ness and kirby.
they should just make the ****ty characters more powerful and not tinker with the ones that are already good.

 

[Mic_128]

Less flaming please.

I like the idea about nerfing the knockback on Sheik, and her throws a bit more (it's better in PAL but still could be better)

Marth could also do with a loss in power concidering he's a great combo-er.

Samus and Falco are fine. Nerf the projectiles and there's no point in even using them. And Falco's Dair has been balanced in PAL so the spike is only on the opening few frames and the rest just send them upwards a little.

Falcon is also fine. IC's is fine and can be fixed by making grabs (all grabs, not just IC's) break after doing a certain amount of damage. Also making it harder to chaingrab by giving all throws a bit more knockback. Some sort of balance between SSB's throws of the whole stae at 0% and Melee's chaingrabs of doom.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Here's an idea : The game's fine the way it is. No nerfing required. I do agree that the crappy characters should be boosted in speed/power if possible, like pika/ness/kirby.

 

[Rash]

No nerfing necessary, except maybe for Marth and Fox. Though, I don't see that much of a point in making the higher-tier characters weaker as long as the lower-tier characters are buffed up a bit, especially Bowser and Mewtwo.

 

[Banks]

exactly, we want escalation of power, to make it a more awesome game, not making everyone conform to a weaker level.

 

[Hoboman725]

I disagree with almost every single nerf. It's whining like this that kinda ruined BF2

 

[Banks]

battlefield 2? whatd they do on that

 

[BigRick]

The only Nerf that I would accept is one that would involve getting rid of CGing...

Other than that, just give sum steroids to the lower tiered guys et voilà, you got urself a more balanced game.

Mewtwo + Samus' weight + Marth-like hitboxes = awesome

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Bowser + faster = higher tier bowser. His moves are awesome.

 

[Rakuen]

I'm all for just buffing lower characters over nerfing higher characters. But there's a point where it becomes impractical.
In other words, it's better for the game for everyone to be demigods, than for everyone to be gods.

 

[Mic_128]

exactly, we want escalation of power, to make it a more awesome game, not making everyone conform to a weaker level.

True, but making everyone broken isn't good either.

 

[Fawriel]

Aah, I was going to make a thread like this myself.
I agree that nerfing must not be exaggerated, we know how that turned out. Every character should be STRONG and have weaknesses. The way it is, some characters are just strong. Look at Marth; he excels at speed, range, power, comboing and quick/evil deaths ( spike and chaingrabs ). Pichu, on the other hand, has speed. And, well, a good recovery, which is worthless considering his weight. The rest is weaknesses.

One general idea I have is to introduce some sort of rock-paper-scissors concept to the game. Speed is everything currently, with the exception of Pichu. There should be some way to counter speed, and something else that counters whatever could counter speed.
Of course, I have NO idea how that could be done.

There's a very interesting thread about balance.. here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73645
It addresses something many players forget... balance on different levels. Hence my Falcon rant that is sure to follow. But I'll go from bottom to top here:

Mewtwo.
Good old Mewtwo. The pre-nerfed character. It really seems like, with every move they programmed, they had in mind "MUST NOT MAKE TOO POWERFUL". Really, he only lacks a few details for a really awesome character.
1. heavy weight, Link-ish
2. some more damage on the tilts, some more knockback on others, some more horizontal knockback on the back-throw, some more priority(?)... Bam! Perfect.

Pichu.
Probably won't return.

Kirby.
Honestly, I don't know. Make his up- and down-smash better and... basically, give Jiggly's strengths to him. Aerial maneuverability would definitely get him higher up in the tiers already. Also, fix the throws.

Bowser.
Unlike everyone else, I think he should be even slower and more powerful. Really, Ganondorf outclasses him even in strength, so Bowser has nothing he really excels in. More slowness would make him even harder to use, but those who like him for "mindgames" would really have an advantage going for them if every hit was lethal. Also, maybe a better recovery.
The thread I linked to had this idea about a "battle armor", which would protect him against stun from weak hits for a while. That would actually make him good against fast but weak characters...

Ness.
Extremely hard to use and then not even worth it? That's not how it's supposed to work.
Ness should get some stronger Yo-yo moves again, and, for the love of god, a better grab range, and more distance on PKT2. Other than that, he's awesome.

Mr. G&W.
I have no idea. Better defense and stuff? He's 2-dimensional, he shouldn't be that easy to hit...

Zelda.
Fix her forward- and up-smashes so she can kill with something ELSE than the lightning kick. Her >B could be better, too, and Farore's Wind needs less lag and more subsequent maneuverability.

Yoshi.
They already made him better in PAL... heavier and with stronger smashes... he's kind of awesome there, good combos, good damage, good finishers, only offset by his weeeiiird recovery. I don't know how to fix that.

Pikachu.
Pikachu is pretty cool. He only has a few attacks that are actually usable in most cases, though. Make him better at comboing, preferably with aerials.

Young Link.
One of my favourites, he could use minor tweaking on priority(?), his forward smash, up-smash, range and lag.

Roy.
Not counting on him returning.

Donkey Kong.
DK is pretty balanced as he has many strengths offset by his comboability and lack of variety. Maybe a little less lag on some of his moves.

Luigi rocks.

Link is cool, too. Best job they did at balancing an original fighter.

Ganondorf might be a little too strong for new players, but he will most likely get a different moveset anyway.

Mario could use some more killers, but if his fair really becomes a Mario-Doc hybrid as it might be in the trailers, that's taken care of.

Jigglypuff is fun. Either you kill Jiggly or Jiggly kils you. Interesting balance of strengths.

Samus' smash rockets are somewhat too strong, but the rest is fine.

Icies - chaingrabbing/wobbling + smarter Nana = jackpot

Captain Falcon.
I don't know why he's not top tier, and I don't care. All I know is that this character seriously traumatized me after my first weeks of playing.
For a new player, Falcon has. No. Weaknesses. He is fast, he is strong, heavy, with a recovery that almost ALWAYS gets him back on stage if he hasn't per chance lost his second jump.
If you don't know about hedgehogging, can't juggle well, aren't proficient in shielding and immediately doing something else to avoid a grab, can't edgeguard well and don't know a lot of tricky approaches, as a new player, Captain Falcon ***** you.
1. Change the neutral A combo. Without good DI-ing, it automatically leads into the strong "gentleman"? thing, which is just no fun considering that's ALL computers do.
2. Except for the up+b ****-pounce-hug-thing, which is just annoying.
On higher level play, nerf the knee ( that thing is just ridiculous ) and generally just make his moves a bit weaker ( by that, I mean about 1-2% each ).

Peach.
I don't actually know what makes her so strong. Her turnips and priority and something about float-cancelling?

Marth.
Less grab-range, meteor down-a, lag on attacks, maybe power evened out more among his moves so you don't have ridiculously weak moves and one forward smash that you can win a whole game with.

Sheik.
She was intended to be a comboer. Make her one and lose the inescapable super-killers.

Falco.
No idea. Slower lasers, even a non SHLd laser is quite mean for newer players. Weaker down-tilt?

Fox.
Shine non-JCable, upsmash weaker. Sounds about right.

I get the feeling I'm about to be flamed, but eh.

 

[Red Exodus]

Okay, so Melee had some good characters and some bad characters. It also had some ****ty characters and "WTF BROKEN!!" characters. The game, while not completely broken was pretty imbalanced. What do you people suggest happens to some of these characters. (Note:I made this under the assumption that all Melee characters will return to Brawl, but they supposedly won't.)

NERFS
Sheik- OMG NUBE CHARACTER. Sheik is the bane of MANY players here at Smash boards. Her moves flow like diarrhea and will mostly always end in a Fair or Uair. Introduce a LITTLE lag to some of her moves and rework her Fair/Uair to make them not KO moves, thus increasing the importance of switching to Zelda for the KO.

Switching to Zelda is ********, it leaves you open and forces you to learn another style, I don't main shiek but the main difference between a smart Shiek and a ******** Shiek is the smart Shiek NEVER transforms, EVER. My scrub friends transform so they can tele to the stage, I tell them it's ******** since Zelda is so stupid but they don't listen so I KO them everytime they do it.

Fox- He isn't top tier for no reason. Fox is ********. Oh my ****ing god. Then things that his shine opens up for him are sickening. If his Shine is still going to be jump-cancelable, take some of his power away, particularly in his Usmash(I don't agree with adding lag to his shine like some other guys do.) Also, shine shouldn't be such a devastating gimp move. Maybe make the stun a little less(in the air) or make it a Meteor-maybe?

I wouldn't mind if shine wasn't JC-able. That's all.

Falco- -_-Do something about SHL. It's so aggravating. And Dair is stupidly broken.

I've never been owned by SHLing so I can't comment.

Marth- as an ex-Marth main, I can speak form experience that Marth is a bit of a noob character too. Give him a little less range and introduce a little lag to his forward smash. Also, make his Dair a meteor across all versions and not just PAL. Also, if he was supposed to be the speed to Roy's power, make him WEAKER and lighter than Roy. Jesus...

He is weaker than Roy but he can combo, and he is lighter and floatier [Light and floaty aren't the same thing, bare in mind] than Roy, Roy is just too weak and slow, he can barely combo.

Samus- Samus is the closest thing to perfection that Smash Bros has. Great melee, Great distance, infinite recovery, good range, and pretty good airgame. >_< NERF THIS *****. Take some of her power away, make her a little lighter and FOR GOD'S SAKE, HER SUPER? NO!

She's already weak, plus she has that ******** roll so that forces to you WD, spot dodge, or get owned. Not to mention Samus is laggy as hell.

Captain Falcon- KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! The most epic move in the history of Smash Bros. LOL Captain Falcon has no business being this fast, powerful, AND combo friendly. Take some of his power away. Not a lot because I don't want him being Ness-ified.

All of his special moves suck, every single one. That's bad enough since it includes his sucky recovery.

Ice Climbers- I hear alot about how the Ice climbers are broken characters. As an IC main, I can kinda see that but the thing is that the grab is the only thing that they have. Maybe they can nerf the knockback of their smashes so everyone will be happy? I dunno.

I wouldn't mind if they couldn't KO below 130 on a medium weight character.

Peach- The only thing I want to see taken from here is her hitstun. Everything else is fine, IMO.

Her dsmash is broken, her fthrow is super strong, her turnips are potentially devastating. One of them has to go.

Buff

Bowser- What the hell, Nintendo? Is this how you treat your most well-known villian? Jesus... I acknowledge that he is powerful but dude, give him some range. If you give him some range, I can deal with him being so slow.

He is too weak for his speed, he should be heavier too, around 300% he should be susceptible to getting KO'd not his current percentage. As you said give him some range.

Ness- Ness is one of my mains. I actually love him just the way that he is, but I'd like to see a few things change. Make his PSI Magnet like Fox's Shine, in that it's a 1 frame(or just really quick) move and jump cancellable. Also, make the reflector hitbox for his bat larger. Jesus, it's so useless. A lille Grab range would be nice too.

Well Ness kinda blows the way he is so anything you be helpful.

Young Link- Young Link is also one of my mains. I don't want to see him drastically changed, but Luigi-fied, maybe. Give his sword the ability to deflect energy projectiles with smash attacks. Say Samus fired a charge shot at you, you could forward smash it back to her, or you could USmash it at the CF on the platform above you. Also, make the hitbox for his Fire spike a little bigger. Hookshot, what's up? MAKE IT LONGER!

What you said^.

Mewtwo- WTF?! MEwtwo is supposed to be the ultimate pokemon! Why is he so crap in Melee? I play Mewtwo often and when I get sent out at 70% from Falcon's KNEEEEEEEEEEE, it makes me question what Nintendo was thinking. LOL, Give him Psychic Attack.

He's like 200 pounds in pokemon so he should be heavier, less lag would be nice.

GaW- GaW quickly became one of my mains because he's so **** fun to play as. Of course, why is his sheild so bad? And why are his smashes laggy?

I sucks so much I don't know what can be done.... Ah I know! Giv him Fox's moveset!

Captain Falcon.
I don't know why he's not top tier, and I don't care. All I know is that this character seriously traumatized me after my first weeks of playing.
For a new player, Falcon has. No. Weaknesses. He is fast, he is strong, heavy, with a recovery that almost ALWAYS gets him back on stage if he hasn't per chance lost his second jump.

If you don't know about hedgehogging, can't juggle well, aren't proficient in shielding and immediately doing something else to avoid a grab, can't edgeguard well and don't know a lot of tricky approaches, as a new player, Captain Falcon ***** you.

1. Change the neutral A combo. Without good DI-ing, it automatically leads into the strong "gentleman"? thing, which is just no fun considering that's ALL computers do.
2. Except for the up+b ****-pounce-hug-thing, which is just annoying.
On higher level play, nerf the knee ( that thing is just ridiculous ) and generally just make his moves a bit weaker ( by that, I mean about 1-2% each ).

You get owned by Falcon's crappy recovery? Then you must suck. It's so predictable that you can just sit and wait for him. And what so overpowered about the knee? The fact that you have to sweetspot it? You should be happy it's not like a normal aerial.

[sarcasm]
You forgot to include how 'ownage!' all of his specials are. With a B move like Falcon punch no one can kill Falcon! Who cares about that start up time and that incredible lag? That move is just too much ownage!

With a >B like raptor boost you can uppercut your foes to oblivion! Especially with that lag!
[/sarcasm] [it's annoying me now]

Anyway, Falcon sucks in a few places that's why his normal and smash moves are so strong.

Look at his crappy specials:

B- Falcon punch- FAALCOON PUN- [enough said]

>B- Raptor Boost- If your opponent sees it coming, you're screwed, if it misses you're screwed, if you use it at the end of the stage you're screwed. This moves sucks, let's move on.

vB- Falcon kick- Low knockback, low damage, high lag, this move sucks too, barely useful for recoveries from great heights.

^B- Gay hump [I forget the real name]- This move has little verticle or horizontal distance, the designers felt so bad for giving Falcon such a ******** move that they give him another chance everytime he humps someone, now he has ahumping inifinite, this recovery is anything but good.

 

[El HP]

Fox: Weaken his up-smash and u-air fast characters are supposed to have low KOing abilities this the main problem with Fox his KOing options are too good.

Falco: Make his laser slower this one the things that makes him an overpowered character also his d-air should be weakened his forward smash too.

Sheik: should have crappy KOing abilities kinda like mario, should be made lighter also her recovery should be easier to edge guard, make her grabs less useful.

Marth: Weaker tipper attacks this the problem main problem in melee characters who are fast got strong attacks and that doesn't make sense that is the basic rule a character is either fast and weak or slow and powerful.

Bowser: he doesn't justifies his lack of speed Ganon is a lot more poweful hitter than bowser will ever be.

Also I believe fast characters should have weaker shields like G&W.

 

[nuro]

Only the creators decide what will happen so it doesn't really matter what you want..

Anyways, I think that the characters should be buffed instead of nerfed. But, I like low tier in some ways. There is nothing better than seeing someones low tier beat someones high tier.

Infinite moves should be banned. Fox's reflector pretty much banned half the stages in the game.

Honestly, I am looking forward to whatever they have in store for us.

 

[greenblob]

In the original SSB, Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, and Fox all had awesome up smashes--they were fast and had huge knockback. In Melee, Mario, Luigi, and Jigglypuff's up smashes got nerfed--they no longer kill at 90%, but at 130%. Fox's up smash, however, is still very powerful. I say either give back the Mario Bros. and Jigglypuff their up smashes or nerf Fox's.

In these threads, Pika, Kirby, and Ness come up often. Let's see how they were nerfed in Melee.
Pika: He had huge invisible hitboxes on his aerials, and they're gone. He can no longer thunder-spike, but that doesn't matter too much since his up smash is a lot more deadly. And his throw was greatly nerfed.
Kirby: Kirby would've been a very mediocre character in SSB if it weren't for a few key moves. His dair is not only cancelable, but has more lag (taking away the combo potential). His up tilt, which could be chained 5+ times and then lead into an aerial chain, isn't so great anymore. His down tilt was basically a spike. He still has a good bair though.
Ness: One thing I don't understand is that people tend to mention his yo-yo attack. It was crap in SSB, and it's still crap (it's probably even more useful now because of the yo-yo glitch). Ness had an insane grab range, powerful throws (his throws are still pretty strong, but all throws were nerfed in Melee, so he can't get free edgeguards/kills as easily now), an awesome dair, and a very long recovery. The best way to bring Ness back is probably to make his dair as fast as it was in SSB.

 

[Tera253]

Ah, back in Tera's Debate Hall days, she responded with bold text.

Okay, so Melee had some good characters and some bad characters. It also had some ****ty characters and "WTF BROKEN!!" characters. The game, while not completely broken was pretty imbalanced. What do you people suggest happens to some of these characters. (Note:I made this under the assumption that all Melee characters will return to Brawl, but they supposedly won't.)

NERFS
Sheik- OMG NUBE CHARACTER. Sheik is the bane of MANY players here at Smash boards. Her moves flow like diarrhea (funny) and will mostly always end in a Fair or Uair. Introduce a LITTLE lag to some of her moves and rework her Fair/Uair to make them not KO moves, thus increasing the importance of switching to Zelda for the KO. so what if Shiek's good?

Fox- He isn't top tier for no reason. Fox is ********. screw that. Oh my ****ing god. Then things that his shine opens up for him are sickening. If his Shine is still going to be jump-cancelable, take some of his power away, particularly in his Usmash(I don't agree with adding lag to his shine like some other guys do.) no. any character with a good upsmash is awesome. *cough PIKACHU! *cough* Also, shine shouldn't be such a devastating gimp move. Maybe make the stun a little less(in the air) or make it a Meteor-maybe?

Falco- -_-Do something about SHL. SHL FTW. It's so aggravating. And Dair is stupidly broken. no. the Spike pwns n00bs. anything that pwns n00bs is good.

Marth- as an ex-Marth main, I can speak form experience that Marth is a bit of a noob character too. Give him a little less range and introduce a little lag to his forward smash. Also, make his Dair a meteor across all versions and not just PAL. Also, if he was supposed to be the speed to Roy's power, make him WEAKER and lighter than Roy. Jesus...

Samus- Samus is the closest thing to perfection that Smash Bros has. Great melee, Great distance, infinite recovery, good range, and pretty good airgame. >_< NERF THIS *****. NERF YOU. Take some of her power away, make her a little lighter you think that suit is light? and FOR GOD'S SAKE, HER SUPER? NO! YESS!!! keep her super!

Captain Falcon- KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! The most epic move in the history of Smash Bros. LOL Captain Falcon has no business being this fast, powerful, AND combo friendly. yes he does. Take some of his power away. Not a lot because I don't want him being Ness-ified. that's contradictory. Falcon - (power + speed) = nerfed. no way.

Ice Climbers- I hear alot about how the Ice climbers are broken characters. As an IC main, I can kinda see that but the thing is that the grab is the only thing that they have. Maybe they can nerf the knockback of their smashes so everyone will be happy? I dunno.
no, since the Fsmash and the grabe are some of their only weapons.

Peach- The only thing I want to see taken from here is her hitstun. Everything else is fine, IMO. 2 glorious words: nerf her. (Tera hates Peach)




Buff

Bowser- What the hell, Nintendo? Is this how you treat your most well-known villian? Jesus... I acknowledge that he is powerful but dude, give him some range. If you give him some range, I can deal with him being so slow. maybe some range, but we all know how easily Mario whips Bowser in the games.

Ness- Ness is one of my mains. I actually love him just the way that he is, but I'd like to see a few things change. Make his PSI Magnet like Fox's Shine, in that it's a 1 frame(or just really quick) move and jump cancellable. Also, make the reflector hitbox for his bat larger. Jesus, it's so useless. A lille Grab range would be nice too. don't care if Ness burns with Satan

Young Link- Young Link is also one of my mains. I don't want to see him drastically changed, but Luigi-fied, maybe. Give his sword the ability to deflect energy projectiles with smash attacks. Say Samus fired a charge shot at you, you could forward smash it back to her, or you could USmash it at the CF on the platform above you. Also, make the hitbox for his Fire spike a little bigger. Hookshot, what's up? MAKE IT LONGER! Young Link is Wii-tarded. here's the one character Tera's having trouble seeing returning.

Mewtwo- WTF?! MEwtwo is supposed to be the ultimate pokemon! Why is he so crap in Melee? I play Mewtwo often and when I get sent out at 70% from Falcon's KNEEEEEEEEEEE, it makes me question what Nintendo was thinking. LOL, Give him Psychic Attack. popularity=pwnage,therefore Pika (SSB64) & Jiggs (SSBM) pwn hard.

GaW- GaW quickly became one of my mains because he's so **** fun to play as. Of course, why is his sheild so bad? And why are his smashes laggy? good point. buff the cardboard man!


I would go on, but this is just depressing me. That, and I wanna see what you guys have to say. that's Tera's 2 bits.

~Tera253~

 

[Banks]

El HP, what you suggest would just make the game crappy by making characters crappy.

 

[Caael]

Well you either Nerf or buff them all. You make one character stronger, then one character will always be weaker than them.

There wont be a balance between the power and speed. Slower characters never get a chance to attack in simple games like Smash, because the faster characters are always whupping them.

In more complex games like Soul Caliber, slow characters can **** the faster ones ( I'm a pretty good Nightmare player) Either they make smash a lot more complex, with combo's and that, which wouldnt fit at all, or they attempt to close the gap between speed and power.

 

[Banks]

small nerfs would be fine, but to make a good character into a bad one is just sad.

 

[Caael]

Enter Kirby...

 

[Hoboman725]

battlefield 2? whatd they do on that

PKM nerf, among other things

 

[Fawriel]

In more complex games like Soul Caliber, slow characters can **** the faster ones ( I'm a pretty good Nightmare player) Either they make smash a lot more complex, with combo's and that, which wouldnt fit at all, or they attempt to close the gap between speed and power.

So slower characters may have an advantage over faster ones? How?
Really, is there ANYTHING that can act as an "elemental" advantage over speed? Mrr.
I'm not exactly for the concept of "slow-strong vs fast-weak", it's so... simple. Smash has so many factors like tricks, combos, rolls...

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

small nerfs would be fine, but to make a good character into a bad one is just sad.

The guy who made this thread suggested the lamest things, he's either a noob or unsatisfied with his small *****, one of the two. In anycase hes a frustrated individual..

Nerf fox's shine.. get real.

Falco- -_-Do something about SHL. It's so aggravating.

It also makes me aware of my small *****

Do something about SHL. Do what about it? screw you.

 

[Bloshi]

There's Only three things I'd like to see fixed in Brawl, the rest can stay:

Shiek actually having KO moves. The point was to switch between Shiek and Zelda, no?

Fox's usmash. Seriously, wtf.

Let Yoshi jump out of his shield for christ's sake. It's an amazing anger one feels when you can start an amazing combo if you could only...jump...out...of...SHIELD! But alas, you must retreat and wait for a new opportunity. Yoshi is mostly defense based you know.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

There's Only three things I'd like to see fixed in Brawl, the rest can stay:

Shiek actually having KO moves. The point was to switch between Shiek and Zelda, no?

Fox's usmash. Seriously, wtf.

Let Yoshi jump out of his shield for christ's sake. It's an amazing anger one feels when you can start an amazing combo if you could only...jump...out...of...SHIELD! But alas, you must retreat and wait for a new opportunity. Yoshi is mostly defense based you know.

Meh... fair uair and dsmash are kill moves from shiek as far as im concerned. Im a shiek main and her downthrow - nair or fair can kill at higher percentages vs floaties such as peach or marth almost everytime, you have to predict DI though.

Edit : Oh I thought you mean shiek didnt have kill moves, my bad. Nah I think shieks fine the way she is, but her tilts go too easily into her aerials, that should be fixed, maybe. I like shiek lol <3

Fox's upsmash is a little too strong, maybe. Id say maybe it should kill like jigglypuff at 90% but people like CF and ganon it should kill at 110-115% rather than 95%ish.

I agree COMPLETLY with yoshi. Why the hell cant he jump out of his shield, thats just gay and unfair. screw that.

 

[El HP]

El HP, what you suggest would just make the game crappy by making characters crappy.

Having a balanced game would ruin smash?

small nerfs would be fine, but to make a good character into a bad one is just sad.

The point is making characters more balanced not makind them weak if fox's u-smash and u-air get weakened he is still a good character he still has his speed and combos after all.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Having a balanced game would ruin smash?

You can't balance smash. Why?

1) Nintendo has no idea how the characters are going to play at a pro level. The players make the tier list, not nintendo. Nintendo just wants to make the game, and sell it.

2) Each character has a moveset that is unique and is based on a game seperate to the one the player is in. If you think you can have so many different characters from games like Metroid, Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Fzero X, Pokemon, etc. most of which stay true to moves and attacks theyve had in their respective games / tv shows and have a BALANCED game, you're smoking crack.

They shouldnt nerf anything in my opinion, though they probably will. I think that they should add stregnth in the obvious way (more speed/power/priority) to characters like Bowser and Yoshi to give them more of a fighting chance.

I know what you're saying about fox though, even if his usmash and uair didnt kill at such ridiculously low % hed still be good because he could just damage you to 115% instead for the kill, wouldnt change much.

 

[El HP]

Im not saying the game will be 100% balanced I know that's imposible to achieve but making it more balanced doesn't hurt in fact it can make smash a more enjoyable game in the way there would be more character diversity in competitive play.

That's it what I mean in fox case because many believe their characters will be ruined like kirby, pikachu and ness and that is not the point.

 

[Sensai]

True, but making everyone broken isn't good either.

I think that was Mic...anyways, it's a good valid point. Someone needs to tell it to Blizzard.

It's obvious that the nerf/buff could go either way. For example, they attempted to nerf Ness/Kirby/Pika, and ended up making them pretty terrible. Then they redid Fox's shine and BAM he's up there with Jesus on the top tier.

The key is balance, clearly. If you've got someone like Fox (and I use him 'cause most people agree he's good) who's really powerful, give him a weakness that brings him down a notch.

I'm not so sure that nerfing/buffing is a good idea, but I would love it if they made it so that counter-picking was important. Sure, we all know that Jiggs beats up space-animals, but what if there was one character that did so great against Jiggs that they had to rethink their position?