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The Official Clash of the Titans 4 Results Thread

M@v

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,678
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
If I 2 stocked inui in a pools match there is no way hes greater than M2k.


then inui had to be gay and go MK on rainbow cruise >_>
 
OverLade

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Sadaharu Inui said:
oh

my

god

NO.
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Thats what you said.

Mew2King played aggressive against a ZSS/Game and Watch team and didn't know about the bucket gayness. I played a very campy Snake against that team and Bum was prepared for the cheapness this time and not playing badly. IT WASN'T A MATTER OF SKILL. I explained this already. Skill wasn't why Bum and I beat that team twice while Mew2King and Bum failed. It was a situational thing caused by knowledge and my character.
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EXACTLY, READ THE BOLD PRINT, YOU SAID IT.

Sure, if someone consistently takes top 3 in teams, obviously you're good, I know that, we all know that. But you can't regularly bring it up to justify being a top player because teams isnt ALWAYS A MATTER OF SKILL.

That is all.
So...

It's equally impressive for two players to consistently get top three at a tournament even if one of them gets top three in doubles all the time while the other does not? They are even in skill? No, they are obviously not even in overall skill. One is obviously better at teamwork and decision making in doubles, which is part of the tournament scene.
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But there are too many variables. One might play metaknight and the other might play Diddy. MK is better in doubles. Between all the different characters, character distribution in regions, legal stages in regions, seeding, difficultly in brackets, there are TOO MANY variables for you to make a judgement like that.

It may be a safe rule "sometimes" but it can't be THE RULE because it will never ALWAYS be correct.

You make sweeping statements, which are too generalized, even if they may sometimes be accurate. In this case, your arguement was too general, or at least sounded like it to me.

Player X in State Z consistently gets top three. Player Y in State Z consistently gets top three. They beat each other an even amount of times and place exactly the same on average.

Neither of them teams with a broken partner. In fact, let's say both of their partners are even in skill.

Player X takes 1st in teams in State Z all the time. Player Y gets no better than 3rd.

Which player should be ranked higher on State Z's rankings?

The answer is glaringly obvious, and I have no idea why people would be disagreeing with me and saying that teams isn't a huge part of someone's skill.
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One might be Diddy and one might be Metaknight. Metaknight is better in teams.

I rest my case.
 
Inui

Inui

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Messages
22,230
Location
Ocean Grove, New Jersey
RedHalberd said:
Thats what you said.

EXACTLY, READ THE BOLD PRINT, YOU SAID IT.
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lol

You took an extremely rare and situational case and tried to make it out to be some common occurance. My knowledge of the bucket nonsense, Bum being ready for it, and me using a better character for the match-ups instead of MK were all good decisions we made that made us win. We didn't rely on pure skill like Mew2King did. Ability to make good decisions = part of winning = part of skill. Regardless, that situation is very rare. Generally the team with the better players will win.

Sure, if someone consistently takes top 3 in teams, obviously you're good, I know that, we all know that. But you can't regularly bring it up to justify being a top player because teams isnt ALWAYS A MATTER OF SKILL.

That is all.
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Let us take me for instance because it's easy.

I generally take 5th in singles at hard tournaments. I only lose to other top players. Sometimes I sneak my way into top 3 and even score a 1st at hard stuff every two months or so.

I consistently take top 3 in teams, even at huge national/regional stuff, and my partner is not Mew2King and my partner is not leagues ahead of me or anything like that. On the contrary, I'm generally regarded as slightly better in teams and I'm the strategist most of the time. We took down ChuDat and Azen, etc.

Now, because I get 5th most of the time in singles and don't take top 3 all the time, some would say I'm not a top player. However, I clearly have a vast amount of talent in the doubles format of the game and can contend with and beat better players like Azen, ChuDat, Bum, and teh_spamerer, and my partner is also worse than those players on his own.

Going by how people regard doubles, my skill and talent for it seem to just not matter at all, so I wouldn't really be considered a top player because I don't wreck faces in singles all the time. I think that's wrong. Doubles is half of the tournament.

But there are too many variables. One might play metaknight and the other might play Diddy. MK is better in doubles. Between all the different characters, character distribution in regions, legal stages in regions, seeding, difficultly in brackets, there are TOO MANY variables for you to make a judgement like that.
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Your point being...? All of those variables also exist in singles besides "MK is better in teams." It's a shame that Diddy Kong is also a top tier character that is exception in doubles, as shown by ADHD and NinjaLink quite often. If your partner knows how to use bananas, Diddy Kong is basically just as good in doubles.

Take the variables into account. Say one player uses Diddy Kong and the other uses Meta Knight. The Meta Knight user gets top 3 in doubles all the time, the Diddy Kong player gets 5th at best in doubles and his partner knows how to use bananas. Who would be ranked higher? The Meta Knight player, obviously. They have equal singles records, but one does better in doubles.

It may be a safe rule "sometimes" but it can't be THE RULE because it will never ALWAYS be correct.

You make sweeping statements, which are too generalized, even if they may sometimes be accurate. In this case, your arguement was too general, or at least sounded like it to me.
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As a long-time panelist for NJ's rankings and a one-time panelist for my regional Melee rankings, I fully understand things like this. This is why you analyze the situation. The generalizations I made are just things to think about and things to go off of. We can talk about specific situations like the one above when it comes to rankings if you want.

Doubles is half of the tournament. You have to have a great amount of overall skill in the game in order to contend with and beat top players in doubles to take top placings in teams. That's really all I'm saying. I'm tired of people crapping on doubles and saying it doesn't matter towards someone's skill.
 
En.Ee.Oh

En.Ee.Oh

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,527
Sadaharu Inui said:
lol

You took an extremely rare and situational case and tried to make it out to be some common occurance. My knowledge of the bucket nonsense, Bum being ready for it, and me using a better character for the match-ups instead of MK were all good decisions we made that made us win. We didn't rely on pure skill like Mew2King did. Ability to make good decisions = part of winning = part of skill. Regardless, that situation is very rare. Generally the team with the better players will win.



Let us take me for instance because it's easy.

I generally take 5th in singles at hard tournaments. I only lose to other top players. Sometimes I sneak my way into top 3 and even score a 1st at hard stuff every two months or so.

I consistently take top 3 in teams, even at huge national/regional stuff, and my partner is not Mew2King and my partner is not leagues ahead of me or anything like that. On the contrary, I'm generally regarded as slightly better in teams and I'm the strategist most of the time. We took down ChuDat and Azen, etc.

Now, because I get 5th most of the time in singles and don't take top 3 all the time, some would say I'm not a top player. However, I clearly have a vast amount of talent in the doubles format of the game and can contend with and beat better players like Azen, ChuDat, Bum, and teh_spamerer, and my partner is also worse than those players on his own.

Going by how people regard doubles, my skill and talent for it seem to just not matter at all, so I wouldn't really be considered a top player because I don't wreck faces in singles all the time. I think that's wrong. Doubles is half of the tournament.



Your point being...? All of those variables also exist in singles besides "MK is better in teams." It's a shame that Diddy Kong is also a top tier character that is exception in doubles, as shown by ADHD and NinjaLink quite often. If your partner knows how to use bananas, Diddy Kong is basically just as good in doubles.

Take the variables into account. Say one player uses Diddy Kong and the other uses Meta Knight. The Meta Knight user gets top 3 in doubles all the time, the Diddy Kong player gets 5th at best in doubles and his partner knows how to use bananas. Who would be ranked higher? The Meta Knight player, obviously. They have equal singles records, but one does better in doubles.



As a long-time panelist for NJ's rankings and a one-time panelist for my regional Melee rankings, I fully understand things like this. This is why you analyze the situation. The generalizations I made are just things to think about and things to go off of. We can talk about specific situations like the one above when it comes to rankings if you want.

Doubles is half of the tournament. You have to have a great amount of overall skill in the game in order to contend with and beat top players in doubles to take top placings in teams. That's really all I'm saying. I'm tired of people crapping on doubles and saying it doesn't matter towards someone's skill.
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LMFAOOOO @ this post


You are SO annoying. Atomsk has beaten Azen before.


Shut up
 
OverLade

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Yay, we're getting somewhere.
Sadaharu Inui said:
lol

You took an extremely rare and situational case and tried to make it out to be some common occurance. My knowledge of the bucket nonsense, Bum being ready for it, and me using a better character for the match-ups instead of MK were all good decisions we made that made us win. We didn't rely on pure skill like Mew2King did. Ability to make good decisions = part of winning = part of skill. Regardless, that situation is very rare. Generally the team with the better players will win.
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Sure generally, glad we can agree on that. But I wouldn't say it's extremely rare or situational.

Me and CO18 had a very similar occurrence in gigs doubles. But that's not important, we can move past that.

Let us take me for instance because it's easy.

I generally take 5th in singles at hard tournaments. I only lose to other top players. Sometimes I sneak my way into top 3 and even score a 1st at hard stuff every two months or so.

I consistently take top 3 in teams, even at huge national/regional stuff, and my partner is not Mew2King and my partner is not leagues ahead of me or anything like that. On the contrary, I'm generally regarded as slightly better in teams and I'm the strategist most of the time. We took down ChuDat and Azen, etc.

Now, because I get 5th most of the time in singles and don't take top 3 all the time, some would say I'm not a top player. However, I clearly have a vast amount of talent in the doubles format of the game and can contend with and beat better players like Azen, ChuDat, Bum, and teh_spamerer, and my partner is also worse than those players on his own.

Going by how people regard doubles, my skill and talent for it seem to just not matter at all, so I wouldn't really be considered a top player because I don't wreck faces in singles all the time. I think that's wrong. Doubles is half of the tournament.
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You know how to win in doubles. But the same kind of smarts doesn't necessarily apply to singles. And of course vice versa. We both know that, I'll get to the next part.

Your point being...? All of those variables also exist in singles besides "MK is better in teams." It's a shame that Diddy Kong is also a top tier character that is exception in doubles, as shown by ADHD and NinjaLink quite often. If your partner knows how to use bananas, Diddy Kong is basically just as good in doubles.

Take the variables into account. Say one player uses Diddy Kong and the other uses Meta Knight. The Meta Knight user gets top 3 in doubles all the time, the Diddy Kong player gets 5th at best in doubles and his partner knows how to use bananas. Who would be ranked higher? The Meta Knight player, obviously. They have equal singles records, but one does better in doubles.
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But diddy kong ISN'T as good as doubles. He might be able to perform as well given depending on the particular tournament or match, but the reality is that no character performs like any other character in teams. DK and D3 are far more easily nadospammed in teams than in singles due to the division of focus, though they made outperform characters like Falco that they would normally lose to in singles.

On paper what you're saying works fine, but in actuallity it's impossible. But besides that, Diddy is just an example, I wouldn't even have to compare MK and Diddy Kong, it could be any character. But you can't justify all characters at the same level being able to compete equally in teams because it's simply not possible.

Oh, and Ranking doesnt = Skill necessarily. For example Afro thundah occasionally loses in Florida simply due to the saturation of Dededes, though he's clearly better than all except mabye seibrik. Another relevant variable why those kind of assumptions arent possible.
As a long-time panelist for NJ's rankings and a one-time panelist for my regional Melee rankings, I fully understand things like this. This is why you analyze the situation. The generalizations I made are just things to think about and things to go off of. We can talk about specific situations like the one above when it comes to rankings if you want.

Doubles is half of the tournament. You have to have a great amount of overall skill in the game in order to contend with and beat top players in doubles to take top placings in teams. That's really all I'm saying. I'm tired of people crapping on doubles and saying it doesn't matter towards someone's skill.
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Meh, I whatever floats your boat.

I won't say Doubles doesn't count for skill, but I feel you use it too much as a justification. You shouldn't feel insecure about your reputation. Whether people don't like you or not, you still perform very well anyway, so just be happy with that.

Anyway I think I'm out. I love arguing but unless you've got more to say, that's all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuXV99asO8 - Obama FTW
 
CT Chia

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
i kno vex started to get some matches on his utube account fro mteams. il work on getting links for em and putting em in the first post.
 
teh_spamerer

teh_spamerer

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
4,067
Location
Good luck Mario
slikvik said:
sigh as in you never miss an opportunity to bring up melee vs brawl. 9 times outta 10 when I see you post, I already the content of the post lol. its pretty redundant
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That's much better than knowing that 9/10 times someone is going to excessively brag when they aren't that good or drool over Brawl.
 
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