Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[jonnobigz]

Critique my DK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5KLwfW4Iyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5cJoeBFamg

Very solid play, I like the hyper-defensive style. Requires a lot of patience.

Against Marth, I feel like it wouldn't always be a super great idea though because his spacing options are safer than yours. Better Marths would probably corner DK pretty quickly, have to balance aggression in there somewhere.

I'm more impressed with the Peach match. Defensive DK really prevails here because Peach can't do anything to get past Bair.

Keep it up dawg

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Hey thanks man! I actually super duper mega disagree with you on your point about the Marth match-up but you're such a nice guy that I don't want to argue on it. I'm sure we're both right!

Played some seriouslies against a Fox player on stream last night, got a JUICY 4-stock and some super optimal punishes. Feel free to take more notes, everybody!

http://www.twitch.tv/cnb_chandy/b/645046229?t=1h24m50s

For the stock that will make you wish you were me, skip ahead to 1:29:07. You're welcome!

 

[Hagrid]

Critique my DK. It's Chronicles of Rid****-ulously good, though, so if you don't find that much I won't hold it against you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5KLwfW4Iyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5cJoeBFamg

Ended up winning this whole tournament without dropping a set. Check out how safe my play is! I get a neutral game semi-chub just looking at it. #IMPECCABLEdashdance

Take notes everybody. This is what talent looks like!

Your movement with DK is so good! Seriously you make DK look like he's made of liquid! Nice work!

(Got any tips to help me make my DK as mobile as yours?)

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Think of the wavedash as an extension of your dash dance. DK has a pretty long dashdance as it is but if you mix in max distance wavedashes he can adjust his spacing indefinitely, allowing you to set up SH bairs or DD grabs to beat out approaches. Master pivot wavedashing too, pivot wavedash SH bair is super fast and super useful.

If you want to get a feel for what I mean, watch footage of Hax's Falcon. Falcon's got the same mix of long dashdance + short wavedash so he has to use it in the same kind of way. I hope that helps, but the DK neutral isn't something you can teach, really. You just gotta FEEL IT IN YOUR BONES, MAN. YOU JUST GOTTA KNOW WHEN TO DO THE DEW.

 

[Hagrid]

Oh I feel it in my bones man. So much that it HURTS!
I've started using full dash dance forward into a custom sized wavedash back to get myself in the best possible position (I noticed you used that a lot). Can definitely see how its useful.

So a pivot wavedash is where you dash dance forward then dash dance back but quickly shield to stop yourself and then wavedash out of shield? I'm not sure...

Also got any tips for edgeguarding a marth who's recovering low and always protects the edge with side B / forward air?

Your DK >>>>>>>>>>> My DK

 

[jonnobigz]

Hey thanks man! I actually super duper mega disagree with you on your point about the Marth match-up but you're such a nice guy that I don't want to argue on it. I'm sure we're both right!
http://www.twitch.tv/cnb_chandy/b/645046229?t=1h24m50s

I personally enjoy the Marth matchup a lot, I just like to try to finish stocks early against him. Marth can be easy to bait, which is why I see why you may like defensive styles against him, but it is hard to compete with really well-spaced double fairs on a crap shield, tilts, and grabs. So I wanna end it

About the video, the Fox was kinda free so you got to go HAM with the chaingrabs and neutral game. It's always fun to see a top tier getting trashed though, so very nice.

Also if you ever do netplay, we should totally play. I'm not fantastic at the DK ditto but I'll gladly give it a shot.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Yeah the guys in my scene haven't mastered smash DI yet so they get trunched by optimal bread and butter play. DK just gets cargo upthrow up air regrab by default if you don't know how to smash DI up, and if you mix that with jump cancel regrab cargo-WM uthrow regrabs you can chain grab until you can uthrow uair regrab twice, and then you cargo uthrow uair fair and set up for the 50/50 edgeguard. My philosophy is to never over-extend, even if it means dropping a combo.

My flowcharty but technically sound neutral and punish game are really frustrating to play against. If your opponent can keep up with DK then the match-up is impossible. This is why a technically sound Fox with great decision-making is potentially scarier than a Falco who knows how to laser intelligently. Death by optimal Fox is so much more soul crushing because it's just pure stress.

 

[Hagrid]

Hey, what's everyones preferred way of doing the 0 - death nowadays on spacies?

 

[Soupeschleg]

Hey, what's everyones preferred way of doing the 0 - death nowadays on spacies?

I do cargo upthrow-regrab until about 20% then I'll do cargo upthrow-upair-regrab once or twice then just roll with upairs until they're hanging there like a nice, ripe banana then comes the punch (fair/bair if I'm not charged)

 

[Soupeschleg]

vs. Ice Climbers help me please
this **** feels impossible.
Once it's down to Sopo I find it relatively easy but how do I make that happen

 

[Hagrid]

vs. Ice Climbers help me please
this **** feels impossible.
Once it's down to Sopo I find it relatively easy but how do I make that happen

From my limited experience versing ice climbers, using down B is very important as it hits them both upwards usually in different directions which allows you to up air chain nana into a KO.

Whatever you do don't try to grab them when they are together. And don't choose final destination. You'll get destroyed. You have to play really differently and platform camp to avoid their grab combos.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Had the pleasure of playing some grimy technical fox player at my weekly. Ended up getting fourth over all, lost to Tirno (a Falco player, he won the weekly) and JF (a Sheik player, he got third). A bit sloppy but otherwise a clean 2-0. You like that first stock of game 2? Keep it real casual, guys. As a fun exercise, imagine your own commentary audio! Because the mic was muted on accident.

Pay attention to my use of light shield in close encounters. Fox nairs will shield poke you like crazy so you have to be careful to avoid something like nair-shine upsmash because that's free on fatty DK. If you're lucky you might set up an up-B out of shield with good shield SDI, but you might also get forced onto ledge, and DK has a tough time getting back on stage so unless you surprise them with something right after you get forced to ledge like immediate get-up attack while it still has ledge intangibility, you might be able to jank them out and reset to neutral. Getting stuck in shield against Fox sucks so hard but you should know what to do if it happens to you. If they've never played a good DK before then abuse their lack of knowledge. Some people don't even know cargo dthrow exists, lol. Poor Falcon mains.

If the Fox player isn't expecting to DI it, early regular bthrow will set them up to be edgeguarded really well. When you have invincible bair and invincible up-B and you're not a scrub you can clean up on edgeguards with DK, it just takes a while.

 

[Soupeschleg]

Had the pleasure of playing some grimy technical fox player at my weekly. Ended up getting fourth over all, lost to Tirno (a Falco player, he won the weekly) and JF (a Sheik player, he got third). A bit sloppy but otherwise a clean 2-0. You like that first stock of game 2? Keep it real casual, guys. As a fun exercise, imagine your own commentary audio! Because the mic was muted on accident.

Pay attention to my use of light shield in close encounters. Fox nairs will shield poke you like crazy so you have to be careful to avoid something like nair-shine upsmash because that's free on fatty DK. If you're lucky you might set up an up-B out of shield with good shield SDI, but you might also get forced onto ledge, and DK has a tough time getting back on stage so unless you surprise them with something right after you get forced to ledge like immediate get-up attack while it still has ledge intangibility, you might be able to jank them out and reset to neutral. Getting stuck in shield against Fox sucks so hard but you should know what to do if it happens to you. If they've never played a good DK before then abuse their lack of knowledge. Some people don't even know cargo dthrow exists, lol. Poor Falcon mains.

If the Fox player isn't expecting to DI it, early regular bthrow will set them up to be edgeguarded really well. When you have invincible bair and invincible up-B and you're not a scrub you can clean up on edgeguards with DK, it just takes a while.

I think you could've punished him for firefoxing to the ledge almost every time a lot harder to speed the 2-0 up a little bit, but good stuff man

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I took that comment personally and endeavored to attempt a faster 2-0 tonight. I hope this doesn't disappoint. Finally got my punish game looking really polished and I'm super pumped for the rest of the summer.

http://www.twitch.tv/squeegeesmash/b/673148051?t=6h10m25s

 

[Soupeschleg]

I took that comment personally and endeavored to attempt a faster 2-0 tonight. I hope this doesn't disappoint. Finally got my punish game looking really polished and I'm super pumped for the rest of the summer.

http://www.twitch.tv/squeegeesmash/b/673148051?t=6h10m25s

last stock game 1 - that's that ****.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I took that comment personally and endeavored to attempt a faster 2-0 tonight. I hope this doesn't disappoint. Finally got my punish game looking really polished and I'm super pumped for the rest of the summer.

http://www.twitch.tv/squeegeesmash/b/673148051?t=6h10m25s

Good stuff, dude. Always glad to see more DK players around.

 

[jonnobigz]

This was my only game streamed from the most recent Foundry. I did really solid first match, then almost got reverse 4 stocked. Against sheik I try to be more creative with edgeguards, proud of my first kill here. Too bad I wasn't on stream when I took a set off SFAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h2FvQY7hAc

http://i.imgur.com/BUn2srG.jpg

 

[ChivalRuse]

This was my only game streamed from the most recent Foundry. I did really solid first match, then almost got reverse 4 stocked. Against sheik I try to be more creative with edgeguards, proud of my first kill here. Too bad I wasn't on stream when I took a set off SFAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h2FvQY7hAc

http://i.imgur.com/BUn2srG.jpg

He was bringing that first game back on you because you kept throwing out moves with poor spacing and doing aerials and landing vulnerable. Please work on your ground movement more. You're doing aerials and in place options like u-tilt/f-tilt too often. Dash dance grab/dash dance > d-tilt in neutral more and play reactively rather than forcing moves and hoping they connect.

 

[jonnobigz]

Yeah I guess I was throwing out trash a lot because I was up in stocks. Usually I'm pretty defensive against sheiks but I felt like I was able to be more aggressive against this one. Unfortunately I kind of start going for fairs when up in stocks, a bad habit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I mean ... you can combo into fair with cargo u-throw and uair variations. Just go for grabs, they're way less risky.

 

[Hagrid]

I took that comment personally and endeavored to attempt a faster 2-0 tonight. I hope this doesn't disappoint. Finally got my punish game looking really polished and I'm super pumped for the rest of the summer.

http://www.twitch.tv/squeegeesmash/b/673148051?t=6h10m25s

Chandy 4 best DK in da world.

This was my only game streamed from the most recent Foundry. I did really solid first match, then almost got reverse 4 stocked. Against sheik I try to be more creative with edgeguards, proud of my first kill here. Too bad I wasn't on stream when I took a set off SFAT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h2FvQY7hAc

http://i.imgur.com/BUn2srG.jpg

I really liked the low up B edge guards. Any sort of hits on Sheik can make her either miss the sweetspot or miss the ledge completely. Good stuff.

 

[jonnobigz]

Thank you Hagrid!

I do have to agree, I think Chandy is one of, if not the best, DKs in the world. Everyone knows GR and Phish, but I feel like they miss stuff when Chandy seems consistent. GR favors platform chaingrabs, that's the main thing I notice about him. Chandy rocks a mostly unique defensive Dong that can go ham when he gets an opening, and not many other DKs do that.

 

[JRad]

When I grab Sheik at zero I almost never cargo -> full hop -> uthrow, you can just combo her from standing on stage with cargo -> uthrow and you can get a lot more off of it. You mostly went for gimps/ledgeguards and that panned out for you. You can also cargo uthrow dair sheik around 42-55%ish if you want to get tech chase.

I really liked how you used tech straight upb, thats one of my personal faves

 

[Hagrid]

Yo if anyone hasn't watched these vids from Chandy yet, check em out. I came across them while stalking pro DK players on YouTube (as you do).
2 great Falco vs DK sets.

http://youtu.be/vpulxo3eJp8
http://youtu.be/SvbgZjXBwVk

I think these videos show that:
1. Chandy rocks.
2. Fountain of Dreams is a good stage for DK against Falco. The platforms mess Falco up more than DK and when one platform disappears completely it allows for easy chaingrab combos. I was surprised that Chandy didn't counterpick here in the second video and instead chose FD.
3. Yoshis Story is a terrible stage for DK period. You should really stay away from this stage unless you're versing Captain Falcon. (IMO)

What are all y'all thoughts on the Falco matchup?

 

[JRad]

Yo if anyone hasn't watched these vids from Chandy yet, check em out. I came across them while stalking pro DK players on YouTube (as you do).
2 great Falco vs DK sets.

http://youtu.be/vpulxo3eJp8
http://youtu.be/SvbgZjXBwVk

I think these videos show that:
1. Chandy rocks.
2. Fountain of Dreams is a good stage for DK against Falco. The platforms mess Falco up more than DK and when one platform disappears completely it allows for easy chaingrab combos. I was surprised that Chandy didn't counterpick here in the second video and instead chose FD.
3. Yoshis Story is a terrible stage for DK period. You should really stay away from this stage unless you're versing Captain Falcon. (IMO)

What are all y'all thoughts on the Falco matchup?

1. Yes.
2. No. The platforms are really bad for characters who do not have good normals such as DK. If DK is under the half raised platform his ground game consist of Ftilt/Dtilt which get beaten out by falco laser + tilts. Our head is also exposed on almost all levels of the platforms making it really easy for falco to do vertical combos with downair. Without the platform we can chaingrab better sure but getting a grab on a good falco is difficult and they still have the top platform to DI too. The highest the side platform can be decent for DK since you can use it to escape laser pressure and you can sweetspot upb through it so its actually pretty easy to combo even with it being there. FoD has shorter sides so we don't exactly get to use our recovery to the fullest while falco can always recover if he has his double jump as opposed to some other stages where his short recovery might not reach stage if he gets knocked off pretty far. FD is easily DK's best stage as far as combo potential goes since you can 0 to death a spacie and judging from game 1 Chandy was getting plenty of grabs to make it worth it. I think he should have tried to mix in a few more full hop bair approaches but the neutral game on that stage is definitely difficult. He mostly lost game 2 because he wasn't finishing his combos.
3. Honestly this is just a matter of opinion. A lot of DK's actualy really like Yoshi's because DK can combo really well here and your opponents dont have a lot of space to move around which Falcon, Fox, and Marth really need. Phish it counterpicks yoshi's pretty frequently, including his set against Zanguzen. I personally don't like it because the low platform lets things like Falcon Short hop knee poke us while on platform but its just a preference thing. Its not like Chandy could ban it since it was a Bo5 so it is what it is but a lot of falcos definitely like that stage.

Falco is arguably DK's hardest matchup since lasers turn us around and his dair pokes our head like 50% of the time. Our weight and size just making pillaring ridiculously easy and landing a dair on DK when he is at like 25%+ while offstage kills DK because of his recovery. When I play against good falcos it really feels like I am just losing the entire game but if I can manage to squeeze in 4-5 big combo activities then I win. Of course if the Falco doesn't know how to deal with my platform game or takes big risk that let me grab him then its ez$$ but hence good falco...

 

[Hagrid]

You make some good points.

Looking at that FOD match though, it just seemed like Chandy was in control the whole time just because Falco couldn't get his laser game going and Chandy could get a lot of nice up air strings without even needing a grab. Granted that may just be because of the type of Falco he was playing against, but I also remember Green Ranger saying he like FOD against Falco so eh who knows. I'm definitely gonna give it a try.

 

[JRad]

Zeph was just really scared and respecting DK way too much in Game3. Those panic airdodges made me lul. Falco can almost always get his Dair to trade with DKs Uair. Worst case scenario DK baits it then hits your landing but at least you have your DJ back.

One of the benefits of Falco players in general is that most of them do not like Fountain of Dreams, so I usually don't ban it and they don't pick it anyway. I really don't think stage is that big of a deal for DK in most matchups, more of a player preference/style. Except FD against spacies, I love that ish. Otherwise im a BF or bust kinda DK

 

[Hagrid]

Gotta love the BF for them easy cargo stage spikes

 

[jonnobigz]

Yoshis is a doubled edged sword for DK IMO. The shallow blastzones make it easy for DK to get early kills like uthrow uair, and he can do some early jank off stage. But it also negates his great survivability and the slanted edges hurt his amazing ledgesnap game. When I played SFAT, he completely decimated me on yoshis. It is waaaayyyy too small and DK has no room to dash dance. Dream Land was a whole other story. I find that I don't like yoshis for any of the top tier matchups really, except against Marth oddly enough. The slanted ledge makes it harder for him to sweet spot, and is easy bair bait. Also with his weight and the platforms on Yoshi, one uthrow leads to taking Marth around the world.

Also I never thought about falco/fod before. I'm going to try that out tonight at the Foundry, it makes sense on paper.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Hey guys thanks for all the kind words. I was actually about to share those Falco sets. The second one against Tirno (the best Falco in my state) is a good example of how you have to combo spacies when they know how to smash DI correctly. It's way harder but DK always has a guaranteed way to set-up an edgeguard even if he doesn't always have a guaranteed zero to death.

Falco is a really hard MU because DK basically can't play the neutral game for 90% of the match. Lasers take away your ability to dash dance and effectively space autocancel bair so DK's best tools in every other MU are useless here. At a certain threshold of skill you just will not be able to shield grab Falco and you should not expect to start combos/platform tech chases out of a grab. Pay attention to the way the Falco starts pressure strings on your shield and think of what you can do to 1)stuff that option and possibly 2) start a combo afterwards.

In my first set (against Zeph), watch the second game. For the first two stocks I noticed he would sometimes come down with fullhop dairs on my shield, which is really sloppy and gives you a somewhat lenient window of time to react, jump out of your shield and then uair. Most of the time DK's uair will trade with Falco's dair but at low percents you can tech the dair and still have time to regrab Falco before he hits the ground (Peach does this in the Falco MU too sometimes). I tried to execute this punish earlier on in the game but I screwed up the timing because I was reacting to the dair coming out instead of reacting to the fulljump, which would give me enough time to counterattack. Finally I read the fullhop dair at 5:30ish and I get the uair trade and destroy his stock.

The one saving grace about Falco players is that even the better ones out there have "routines" to their shield pressure strings and laser approaches that you can pick up on and use to create openings that you desperately need. There are a finite number of ways for Falco to try to poop on you and there's like a million interchangeable Falco players out there so you will eventually start to recognize patterns across the board. You have to not only be constantly collecting data on their habits but also be aware of how much information you're giving them. When you really get down to it DK only has like four or five good ways to start a combo and if you don't mix it up between them you'll never beat an experienced player in a Bo5. DK's punish game is crazy good IF you can create the right set-ups, but as your opponent gets better the gimmicky stuff won't work anymore and you have to make do with solid fundamentals and an utterly mediocre character.

Let me know if yall have any more questions for me, I'm happy to talk through anything weird/cool/questionable you find in my matches. I had no idea any of you guys were actually still interested in my footage but this kind of discussion is really good and I'm glad it's happening. I'll make sure to keep sharing my videos here as they get uploaded in the coming weeks.

 

[Hagrid]

Chandy you are our fearless leader. The leader of the bunch. (You know him well...) Keep the advice incoming! I am absolutely eating it up. I pretty much attribute all my improvements in playing DK to watching you play.

What do you think of FoD and Yoshi's Story in the Falco matchup? Are they good counterpicks for DK iyo?

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Yoshi's can be good. If you rarely drop platform tech chases then Yoshi's is for you because DK is fast enough to cover a lot of stuff on those tiny platforms and help you extend your combos. Falco can't run away because it's so small so against a particularly patient Falco who is trying to zone you hard with lasers and stay away from your combo starters it will force him to "encounter" you more in neutral, which potentially leads to more set-ups. If the Falco player is good up close and can pressure well enough to take shield grab out of the picture then prepare to get really flustered because he will likely be chewing up your shield with a lot of safe late aerials into shine/double shine and you won't have an easy time finding space to retreat to. I usually ban Yoshi's against Falcos with good shield pressure for this reason.

The small size also means you will get edgeguarding opportunities much earlier than you normally would (off of bair, bthrow, or up-B oos), but at low percent you will have to react quickly to cover Falco's multiple options, especially if he still has his double jump. If you're consistent at the edge then you'll pick up a lot of early kills instead of having to worry about setting up an uair string into a fair/bair or a tech chase. Falco's recovery is variable but it's still very short, so a single well placed bair can often take the stock. If you're not confident reading his recovery options, you can take ledge quickly and force Falco to land onstage so you can punish certain things on reaction like covering an up-B to the side platform with a ledge hop uair or covering a side-B onstage with a waveland onstage dash forward JC grab (immediate bthrow if they're at high percents to continue the edgeguard, cargo uthrow --> uair chain if they're at low percents).

The size is a double edged sword, however, because it means Falco will also get a shot at edgeguarding you much earlier than he normally would, and it is way easier for him to edgeguard you then vice versa. It can get really frustrating sometimes getting shield poke nair/dair/baired at 45% or something and then having to eat 60% or lose a stock just to get back. Falco's dtilt on the slope edges is broken against DK's poor up-B. Learn Randall's patterns and get used to glancing at the timer as you recover; in certain situations you can use your side-B to stall for a bit until Randall comes out and gives you another possible recovery option.

If you (like me) prefer juggles and chaingrabs to platform coverage and elevator combos then you're usually better off counterpicking Stadium or FD (if they didn't ban it) for the punish opportunities alone. These stages are only really worth it if you're consistently maximing your punishes, otherwise DK has a harder time in neutral than he really should because Falco has so much room to back up and laser and you'll just be frustrated more than anything. In these cases Yoshi's, FoD or Battlefield may be better picks for you but DK's juggles are way easier to perform consistently than his platform combos/tech chases so I would advise you to play to those strengths whenever possible. Yoshi's isn't a bad pick, though, I personally never pick anything other than Battlefield, FD, or Stadium in tournament. It's a different flavor. I wouldn't criticize you for counterpicking there, I just prefer Battlefield if you have to go with a 3-platform stage.

FoD is a pretty mediocre DK stage for the most part, for the reasons Jrad listed as well as few others. There isn't really a MU where I would advise counterpicking or striking to FoD, but it's not a terrible DK stage. If you're playing against an ultra campy Fox then it might be a better alternative than Dreamland or Stadium but only if FD is out of the picture (either if they banned it in a Bo3 or you already used it in a Bo5), but I would choose battlefield over FoD in a heartbeat. You should be comfortable playing on it, though, and the platform heights can actually help your combo game in some situations if you're used to them. When the platforms are gone you can chaingrab and that's nice too. Most of these sets are from weeklies and I usually don't chaingrab at weeklies because I'm already consistent with it and these weeklies give me a nice chance to try out different combo set ups while the stakes are low. For regionals and monthlies and **** you know the platform chaingrabs are coming out. That's how we dew the dew.

I played a Jigglypuff in losers finals of some tiny weekly. He took me to game 5, so that was interesting. I'll post the footage once it gets uploaded to Youtube.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Lots of footage just got uploaded at once. Some of it is more essential than others.

I haven't put up Marth footage in a while. Here's winners finals of a regional from last weekend where I played a mid-level Marth from a neighboring city. It's a clean 3-0 and a fairly good example of how you should be playing neutral against Marth. Set the pace of the neutral game by alternating between your low-commitment threats on Marth's space, including wavedash in/back dtilt/ftilt, spaced SH bair, and dash dance grab. Unfortunately Marth has a lot of similar threats on DK's space like dtilt, spaced fair, and a ridiculous grab range that forces you to space bairs on his shield really carefully, and he's more likely to get openings because DK is fat and he gets shield poked easily. The sad truth of the matter is that you will get randy tippered several times throughout your DK career and it will often not be your fault. Sometimes you just gotta suck that ****.

Shield stops (some people call them shield turns) are really helpful in this match-up and I show that pretty well against this Marth. When Marth players expect you to try to retreat and bair, they will attempt to pursue you and fair DK before he can start putting up the bair wall, which will also corner you and strengthen his stage positioning even if he wiffs the fair or trades. After conditioning them to attempt this, you can mix things up and shield turn, making that advancing fair unsafe and netting you a free shield grab which can start a combo. In certain situations they will allow you to place bairs out of shield for which you would otherwise be facing the wrong way, which is helpful when Marth is attempting to cross up your shield or go for a greedy shield poke. Observe examples at 2:50, 3:33, and 6:51.

Cargo uthrow dair platform tech chases are the name of the game for extending combos on Marth and tacking on percent at those awkward mid-high percents where you're unlikely to get more than one uair out of cargo uthrow (especially if the Marth is good with smash DI) but a cargo uthrow fair or a cargo uthrow uair won't kill. I'm going to attempt to explain what I've figured out about it so far, but this is stuff that I'm actively workshopping so bear with me here.

If you're moving from the top platforms to the side platforms DK's dair will have enough time to autocancel so he'll have no lag when he hits the ground, which will make it easier to react to tech in place with a regrab to keep the combo going or a grounded up-B to kill or set up an edgeguard. Unfortunately the extra distance between the dair and the platform below might give Marth a chance to meteor cancel, and he will always have his second jump at that point because you just finished uthrowing him. He can doublejump meteor cancel and immediately throw out an aerial to attempt to catch DK, but that's some pretty deep meta that most Marth mains will not be ready to pull out on the fly, mainly because no other character has a set-up quite like this ultra cheesy gimmick. Even if Marth does meteor cancel, he is still above DK with no double jump which is a really crappy spot for him to be. This will effectively end the tech chase, but you can react quickly with an uair if he's within range and start a juggle, or you can try to bait Marth into coming down into your shield with a fair or a dair and then up-B him to kill or set-up an edgeguard.

When going from the side platforms to the top platform, they have no time to meteor cancel but you also have to l-cancel your dair which makes reacting to Marth's tech options harder. You have to grab almost as soon as you land to grab tech in place; reacting is often not good enough, but if you know they like to tech in place when pressured this makes the read a little safer. Fortunately Marth's options out of tech in place aren't very good (he doesn't have tech in place spotdodge shine like a spacie) so missing the grab here may not be too painful. If they roll or spotdodge you can react to that and cover it even if you miss the initial grab.

If I know the player has a habit of doing get-up attack I shield as soon as I see they miss tech. If they get-up attack, you can shield grab it like always. If they do a neutral stand, react with a grab. If they miss tech roll left or right, wavedash out of shield and then grab (on bigger platforms like Dreamland and Battlefield it may have to be a perfect wavedash, but you should be grinding wavedash oos to be good at this MU anyway). If they don't like doing get-up attack then you can get meatier punishes like wavedash downsmash on reaction to a miss tech roll, or down-B, which has less follow-up potential but covers so much space on the platform. Depending on the size of the platform and where Marth hits the platform in relation to DK you can charge downsmash in a spot where you cover multiple options, which is especially useful if you're confident that they will roll or neutral stand. While downsmashing or charging up a downsmash, continue holding down on the analog stick; if you misread them and they mix it up with a get-up attack, you will be inputting a crouch cancel which may allow you to grab or downsmash anyway. You can also punish missed techs with jab resets, which is low commitment on whiff and can set up downsmashes, fsmashes, giant punches and regrabs depending on what option is best.

The reactions are really hard, and to be honest I'm not even really consistent with this stuff yet. However, these set-ups are a fundamental part of connecting your low percent juggles to your guaranteed KO throw combos. I want to master every part of my punish game so that any time I get a grab on Marth, I have airtight options that will lead to a kill set-up regardless of Marth's percent. You can see my attempts at these tech chases at 2:08, 2:53, 4:45, and 7:37. I don't always get the follow-ups but I literally started trying this out like last week so it's new to me, sorry to show off such sloppy play. Do you any of you guys have experience with these tech chases that you could share?

That's enough for now but I have some juicy vids I'll share tomorrow.

 

[Hagrid]

Impressive as always Chandy and thanks for the detailed advice.

Does anyone know about DKs dash punch? Basically when you have a fully charged punch you start running forwards and then right at the point where your dash turns into a run you let go of the control stick and mash B. If you do it correctly DK will giant punch straight out of his run animation!

The timing can be quite difficult to get down pat and if you want to use it you have to commit - there's no adjusting when or where the punch comes out once you've started running.

Ive just been messing around with it and haven't tried it in a real match but it could potentially be used for tech chases or getting to the edge quickly and throwing out the punch. Thoughts?

 

[Soupeschleg]

Impressive as always Chandy and thanks for the detailed advice.

Does anyone know about DKs dash punch? Basically when you have a fully charged punch you start running forwards and then right at the point where your dash turns into a run you let go of the control stick and mash B. If you do it correctly DK will giant punch straight out of his run animation!

The timing can be quite difficult to get down pat and if you want to use it you have to commit - there's no adjusting when or where the punch comes out once you've started running.

Ive just been messing around with it and haven't tried it in a real match but it could potentially be used for tech chases or getting to the edge quickly and throwing out the punch. Thoughts?

I call it the yoshi killer lmao

 

[dkuo]

hi dk boards havent been here in literally all my life
im sure you guys already know about this but i confirmed a thing in tas today

http://gfycat.com/LameAcclaimedCranefly
slow http://gfycat.com/TheseLeadingAfricanporcupine

for some reason the 37th frame flashes by really quickly

 

[Soupeschleg]

hi dk boards havent been here in literally all my life
im sure you guys already know about this but i confirmed a thing in tas today

http://gfycat.com/LameAcclaimedCranefly
slow http://gfycat.com/TheseLeadingAfricanporcupine

for some reason the 37th frame flashes by really quickly

damn I didn't know it was fully invincible...
my quest for 'most unnecessarily technical DK' continues with another exciting chapter

 

[Hagrid]

damn I didn't know it was fully invincible...
my quest for 'most unnecessarily technical DK' continues with another exciting chapter

Lol you know that means you have to master the short hop charge punch cancelled back air right?

 

[Soupeschleg]

Lol you know that means you have to master the short hop charge punch cancelled back air right?

lmao I know that grind. Also being able to turn around charge punch cancel as fast as possible so you're spinning all over the place when you're in the air

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I've known about the DK haxdash for a while. If it wasn't frame perfect I would probably use it more. I'll never be able to do this in an intense match, especially because you're literally pixels away from airdodging off the stage if you're doing it right. No thank you!

I remember back in PM 3.02, DK had a much easier fully invincible ledge stall. Fastfall off the edge, double jump and immediately do a frame 7 punch cancel (with no turn) and grab ledge. The frame 7 cancel makes DK's ledge grab boxes appear earlier than they would by waiting for the end of his double jump, and IIRC you have a whopping 2 frames of leniency on your input, which technically makes it twice as easy to perform as the haxdash. Kind of like Pichu's ledgestall. I don't know if it works in Melee. I would confirm it myself but I'm studying abroad in Spain for a month and so I'm away from my set-up. That's also why there won't be any new footage of me until mid september, most likely. Sorry guys.