Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[CnB | Chandy]

In all NTSC versions of Melee, if DK gets hit out of the animation of any of his b-moves, he loses any Giant Punch swings he has stored. This is because of a programming error that also affects Samus' charge shot in the same circumstances.

 

[Hagrid]

Does charged Giant Punch just disappear after a while, or am I doing something seriously wrong?

In NTSC melee you lose your charge if you get hit during your up B.

Don't worry you're not dong anything wrong

 

[Hagrid]

Did you lame anyone out with the spawn point trick? If you did it even once I'd still be proud. I mean 13th at your first big tournament is pretty dank anyway so I'm proud either way. I can't help but feel 110% responsible for all of your victories.

You won't believe it but I actually did. I was up against a captain falcon so I went 4th player knowing that I would definitely go to Yoshis story first game, and it couldn't have gone more perfectly. I got a zillion up airs and converted into a kill before he could do anything! Thanks to you I'm always thinking of spawn points now and am considering going 1st player against fox cos I always seem to end up on battlefield/dreamland.

I also practiced the short hop turn around edge guards, but I don't think I got any of those off.

In all NTSC versions of Melee, if DK gets hit out of the animation of any of his b-moves, he loses any Giant Punch swings he has stored. This is because of a programming error that also affects Samus' charge shot in the same circumstances.

Interestingly they fixed this in PAL for DK but not for Samus.

 

[Narr]

In NTSC melee you lose your charge if you get hit during your up B.

Don't worry you're not dong anything wrong

I guess that's why then, I do Up B a lot.

 

[NJzFinest]

@Magus420 got me doing powershields in an interesting way.

If you turn DK around and crouch, powershielding is much easier. Just wait till the lasers hit your butt.

 

[Soupeschleg]

@Magus420 got me doing powershields in an interesting way.

If you turn DK around and crouch, powershielding is much easier. Just wait till the lasers hit your butt.

I thought most people did this
Makes it noticeably easier because it gives you some space to work with rather than having to powershield with the very edge of your shield

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Z-PS is the future anyway. If it just wasn't so weird to do I think I'd be dominating Falcos with it already.

 

[NJzFinest]

I honestly think with powershielding Falco still super bodies DK haha.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

That was a hopeful instance of dominate. However, being able to powershield consistently is nice for avoiding shield pokes and shield grabbing all sorts of crazy ****. If Soupe can grind the frame 7 punch cancels then I can probably manage this **** EZPZ. Consider it donion rings.

By the way I'm gonna start streaming more match analysis of my sets soon. Are there any MUs you guys want me to look at in particular? I don't really know if my advice is that valuable but I'm doing my best.

 

[Hagrid]

That was a hopeful instance of dominate. However, being able to powershield consistently is nice for avoiding shield pokes and shield grabbing all sorts of crazy ****. If Soupe can grind the frame 7 punch cancels then I can probably manage this **** EZPZ. Consider it donion rings.

By the way I'm gonna start streaming more match analysis of my sets soon. Are there any MUs you guys want me to look at in particular? I don't really know if my advice is that valuable but I'm doing my best.

I don't speak for everyone but I find your detailed posts incredibly useful. As for matchups, and this isn't a match up specifically, but I'm struggling with edge guarding spacies and I'm wondering what DKs best options are in every situation. I guess a lot of my problems with edgeguarding spacies is due to my lack of experience playing as them and thus can't effectively predict which option they are likely to go for? Not sure if anyone else has this problem..

 

[Hagrid]

Here's my match from last tournament where I got bodied by a fox player:

http://youtu.be/SKwdLR67aUg

He was really good at taking opportunities to mash as hard as humanly possible to get out of grabs and punished me hard for my poor edgeguarding. This match is a really good example of what I was saying earlier about the problems I'm having edgeguarding spacies.

Please critique! But be warned this DK is just a boy!

 

[Hagrid]

Amazing set from GreenRanger against Fox/Falco.

http://youtu.be/GyU3izX3wFc

Near flawless play, especially in the first game. I'm liking the idea of aiming to finish games quick, even if it means taking your own stocks. The longer games go on, the harder it is for DK to keep winning the neutral imo. Impressive stuff as always GR

 

[NJzFinest]

lol the homie Bwar is so bad vs DK xD

I love this set though. GR was playing very well all day. Him vs Slox was dope.

 

[Arbour Lake]

When I cargo with DK on a bot, it automatic releases itself and does 10 % to each of us.
Help ;-;

 

[NJzFinest]

^ that's a 20XX issue. You literally can't do anything about it except practice on a non 20XX bot. It has something to do with how there are so many random control stick inputs occur in order make bots perform random DI/teching.

Basically, when you put someone on your back as DK on the player2 20XX bot, it thinks it just got slammed into the ground and it's inputting a random tech situation over and over and over and over (frame perfectly).

Sucks cause no human can break out THAT fast.

 

[Arbour Lake]

^ that's a 20XX issue. You literally can't do anything about it except practice on a non 20XX bot. It has something to do with how there are so many random control stick inputs occur in order make bots perform random DI/teching.

Basically, when you put someone on your back as DK on the player2 20XX bot, it thinks it just got slammed into the ground and it's inputting a random tech situation over and over and over and over (frame perfectly).

Sucks cause no human can break out THAT fast.

Thanks.

 

[Hagrid]

Can't wait for them to fix that. It makes it so hard to practice proper combos.

 

[NJzFinest]

I remember it being mentioned in the 20XX thread.

I don't think it's being focused on at all lol.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Sorry I haven't shared footage in a while. Things have been quiet around here lately but I've been making strides. I can confidently say that the DK vs mid-level Fox MU is 100-0. Here's a pretty gnarly 3-0 on a local Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh0Iq_dDcMI

Please let me know what you liked and what I could do better. I'm trying my best to look as crispy and clean as possible.

 

[Green Ranger]

damn dude that was murder. that fox was definitely super flustered by game 3.

Good DK form! You keep your glutes tight and facing towards the opponent!

The WD back punch/grab at 2:10 and 4:07 were sick!

Nice DD's at 3:57 and 5:01.

I really like what happened at 4:39. Nice grab after the side-b to continue the combo!

And of course, those combos were nasty as ****. Great stuff man!

 

[Plunder]

Sorry I haven't shared footage in a while. Things have been quiet around here lately but I've been making strides. I can confidently say that the DK vs mid-level Fox MU is 100-0. Here's a pretty gnarly 3-0 on a local Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh0Iq_dDcMI

Please let me know what you liked and what I could do better. I'm trying my best to look as crispy and clean as possible.

DK is so fun to watch at a competitive level, but your DK in particular is my favorite to watch.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

damn dude that was murder. that fox was definitely super flustered by game 3.

Good DK form! You keep your glutes tight and facing towards the opponent!

The WD back punch/grab at 2:10 and 4:07 were sick!

Nice DD's at 3:57 and 5:01.

I really like what happened at 4:39. Nice grab after the side-b to continue the combo!

And of course, those combos were nasty as ****. Great stuff man!

Thanks GR! Yeah, as for 4:39, I think between DK's great fastfall speed and full jump height his y-axis mobility is among the best in the game. Abuse it if at all possible.

DK is so fun to watch at a competitive level, but your DK in particular is my favorite to watch.

Awwww shucks.

A pools match from a Texas regional should be up soon, I upset the 1 seed in my pool 2-0 in WFs of bracket pools. Fox game 1, and then the counterpick Falco. Will share that when it comes out.

 

[Hagrid]

Sorry I haven't shared footage in a while. Things have been quiet around here lately but I've been making strides. I can confidently say that the DK vs mid-level Fox MU is 100-0. Here's a pretty gnarly 3-0 on a local Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh0Iq_dDcMI

Please let me know what you liked and what I could do better. I'm trying my best to look as crispy and clean as possible.

Finally something for me to watch! The official YouTube stalker of all DK pros was starting to get bored.

Nice giant punches. Those 2 in the first game from roll reads were soul crushing. And you almost got another read on a getup attack in game 2 which just hit the end of fox's invincibility unfortunately.

But yo what's the deal with whatever happened at 3:13? This happens to me all the time too. The firefox didn't even look like it connected! And you would think DKs punch would go right through it. This has frustrated me in the past, I'm guessing it has to do with DKs tie hurtbox?

 

[CnB | Chandy]

I don't know, Giant Punch only actually has 2 frames of invulnerability AND hitboxes so it can be weird and unreliable sometimes. Awful hurtbox/hitbox proportions on nearly every aerial means getting clipped by Firefox a lot when edgeguarding. Honestly I just need to get confident with ledge drop up-B to punish low angles or angles to ledge, but the risk of them going high and then immediately gaining stage control while I'm stuck on the ledge is just too much. I'd rather risk trading with a bair and taking the stock over giving up my positional advantage by committing too much with the up-B.

The pools match is taking forever to get uploaded, but I have some footage against my training partner and protege, who plays Young Link. It's another 3-0, but he's actually pretty good and the matches are close. It's not relevant enough of a match-up for me to do a full write-up on, but at the very least playing against Young Link will help you deal with camping and develop patience as you try to get through projectile walls and effective zoning. I don't think it's a winning match-up, personally, but it's still Young Link so just go in there and tear him up.

Full-jump cargo uthrow to double jump fair or the NjZ floaty killer (standing cargo uthrow, full jump slight delay double jump immediate uair) are the easiest kills to go for, cargo uthrow Giant Punch will kill at like 80 on every stage so go for that if you can. Grabbing Young Link is kind of hard unless he whiffs something super hard. He has better movement and zoning than you do but it will take him forever to kill you if you're not dumb. Getting edgeguarded is a hassle, he can just throw **** at you and nair or dsmash and snag ledge really quickly.

Edgeguarding him is also a hassle, with his tether, walljumps and an up-B with a solid disjoint and great priority. If at all possible, attempt the Samus-style gimp where you wait for them to tether and then drop down and either hit them with it as they swing downward after the initial tether, or clip them on their way up. If he tethers exactly to the ledge, be sure not to miss him on the downswing, as he can just reel in, immediately grab ledge and roll up for a free stock.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

The pools match is up! It's one long video so please follow the timestamp linked below. If the timestamp doesn't work for you, the match starts at 34:30.

https://youtu.be/VcMtQ4ygN0E?t=2059

Please let me know what I did well and what I could be doing better. You guys are the best!

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Bonus footage! You know that other Fox that I 3-0'd? I played him again this week, and once again had the opportunity to take a big watery dump in his mouth. According to him, I am now his least favorite person to play. You should all strive to receive such compliments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28B9GA9HM9g

 

[NJzFinest]

When I cargo with DK on a bot, it automatic releases itself and does 10 % to each of us.
Help ;-;

Can't wait for them to fix that. It makes it so hard to practice proper combos.

The new 20XX does not have cpu's automatically breaking out of cargo anymore.

We DK players have a perfect training mod, check this out:

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Kids these days have it so easy, with all these resources and information. When I first showed up to weeklies playing DK, some guy told me the best way to capitalize off a grab against Fox was to dthrow and then hope to get the tech chase with down B, because "juggling with DK doesn't even work, he's too slow." And I believed him! What a world.

NJzFinest , who do you play in tournament these days? Word on the street is you're primary Roy now, secondary Falco in a pinch. As much as it pains me to lose other DKs that I can actually learn stuff from (no offense guys), you should know that I support you unconditionally in whatever you choose.

Side note, I will be referring to standing cargo uthrow full jump (wait until the apex of your full jump) double jump immediate uair as the NJz floaty killer from now on, because writing all that out every time I want to mention it is just super tedious. It's also something that you should all master, and with 20xx you can practice it on your own with those colored overlay things, which will let you know if the opponent is still in hitstun or not. One of these days I'll get a list of percentages at which it true combos, I'm just too lazy to do that kind of research anymore. @dkuo maybe?

It's comparably useful to a Fox uthrow uair, and it is an invaluable and utterly necessary component of your game plan in nearly every floaty match-up. Once you've succeeded in maintaining stage control and getting stray bairs/short uair strings to build damage, you will need this guaranteed kill set-up to clean up stocks. Absolutely no excuses. Learn it now or forever hate every floaty match-up. Every time you end a 5 minute game on Dreamland with it, think to yourself "thanks NJz!" or better yet, "thank you Chandy, for giving meaning and direction to my indefinable and seemingly endless struggles."

 

[wutadisaster]

Kids these days have it so easy, with all these resources and information. When I first showed up to weeklies playing DK, some guy told me the best way to capitalize off a grab against Fox was to dthrow and then hope to get the tech chase with down B, because "juggling with DK doesn't even work, he's too slow." And I believed him! What a world.

NJzFinest , who do you play in tournament these days? Word on the street is you're primary Roy now, secondary Falco in a pinch. As much as it pains me to lose other DKs that I can actually learn stuff from (no offense guys), you should know that I support you unconditionally in whatever you choose.

Side note, I will be referring to standing cargo uthrow full jump (wait until the apex of your full jump) double jump immediate uair as the NJz floaty killer from now on, because writing all that out every time I want to mention it is just super tedious. It's also something that you should all master, and with 20xx you can practice it on your own with those colored overlay things, which will let you know if the opponent is still in hitstun or not. One of these days I'll get a list of percentages at which it true combos, I'm just too lazy to do that kind of research anymore. @dkuo maybe?

It's comparably useful to a Fox uthrow uair, and it is an invaluable and utterly necessary component of your game plan in nearly every floaty match-up. Once you've succeeded in maintaining stage control and getting stray bairs/short uair strings to build damage, you will need this guaranteed kill set-up to clean up stocks. Absolutely no excuses. Learn it now or forever hate every floaty match-up. Every time you end a 5 minute game on Dreamland with it, think to yourself "thanks NJz!" or better yet, "thank you Chandy, for giving meaning and direction to my indefinable and seemingly endless struggles."

honestly man you are pure knowledge please never stop playing DK im learning so much i just picked DK up in the last two months and i am going to my first tourny this sunday! also please stream more !!

 

[NJzFinest]

NJzFinest , who do you play in tournament these days? Word on the street is you're primary Roy now, secondary Falco in a pinch. As much as it pains me to lose other DKs that I can actually learn stuff from (no offense guys), you should know that I support you unconditionally in whatever you choose.

Character crisis. Fox, Falco, Roy, Peach, Marth, and Sheik are my other tourney characters. I play DK until I lose, then switch to one of them. I always had a DK, since like 07. Low tier tournaments used to be a thing and that's when I would use him. I didn't actually decide to commit to him in normal tournament play until the summer of 2014. I used to be strict to Fox and Sheik pre-Brawl era, but picking up Melee after a 6 year break was too much on my tech skill lol. DK super easy

Roy is my fav character and I believe he's better than DK vs toptiers, overall. He just needs someone to represent him. The 2 best melee Roy players are mostly invested in PM (Sethlon and Lunchables).

Glad to see you're dropping knowledge for peeps here! Keep it up mang. Reminds me, I should update that DK guide lol.

 

[Hagrid]

The new 20XX does not have cpu's automatically breaking out of cargo anymore.

We DK players have a perfect training mod, check this out:

In so hyped for this. New age DK tech practice starts tonight!

Question about your video though. Do you only tend to go for a couple of chain grabs before you start the up air chain? I always go for more. This is one thing I find interesting because every dk player does their death combos differently and I'm trying to figure out what's better.

I found that fox needs to be on ~13% or over (I think that was the magic percent) before you hit him with that first up air because it sends him into the tumble animation. If he's in tumble then he cant act and the regrab is much easier. You can see that in your first 2 combos against fox cos your up throw wasn't stale and 2 (or 3) up grabs put fox at a percent above 13.

After that though your up throw was stale and you used fewer chain grabs meaning that the first up air didn't make fox tumble. This makes the regrab harder and the fox can actually act if they are quick enough. I think all you would have needed to do was throw in a pummel in the second grab and it woulda made the combo more guaranteed.

You probably already know this and just the put the video there to show the new 20xx but I think this is an interesting discussion to have cos I see so much variation. The dk community needs some consistency with their top tier destruction!

I'm gonna test that magic percent again tonight. What's everyone else's take on this?

EDIT: The magic percent is actually 17% for a guaranteed tumble after an up air. It works on 16% though it's inconsistent for some reason. So essentially if you grab them and they are on 13% then your next up throw is going to reach >17% (unless you get the super super stale 3% up throw but that hardly ever happens) and you can start up airing into regrab.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hey Hagrid , I only do a few chaingrabs because Fox can do slight DI behind and shine DK.

I will definitely mess around with it more, thanks for the info.


Btw I found another DK. DFU seems to be doing work in the Midwest, which is awesome since AOB is long retired, StrongBad moved to PM, and I moved back to NJ. I can't find the footage, but he beat Kels' Fox in 1 set and Kels' Sheik in 2 sets. He also beat DruggedFox and won a MM vs SFat's Fox lol.

Green Ranger Hagrid CnB | Chandy take a look:

More:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dfu+dk+doc

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Hagrid , if I'm on a three platform stage and I get a grab I will attempt to walk to the middle and do a few chaingrabs. Once they get to high enough of a percent (usually after two or three, if I do the free one pummel) that they can drift to the side and tech the platforms, I'll do the little short hop cargo uthrow and get a short hop uair before they can hit the platform. From there you can use go from the side to the top platforms with well timed autocancel uairs, making sure to use your double jump efficiently. If they're good at smash di and they keep trying to DI off the edge, mix them up with a surprise nair, reverse bair, or aerial up-B. They'll be DIing away and get sent much farther than usual, which will potentially score you an early percent kill from solid edgeguarding.

The rest of the intricacies are all Chandy secrets. When I'm finished optimizing I'll give a full explanation, but until then I don't want to share for fear of disseminating bad information.

NJzFinest He's good, he has good spacing and overall sound decision making. He could stand to be a bit faster. More bairs. Although I could look at any DK and say more bairs, so that's kind of meaningless.

 

[Army805]

When does cargo u-throw -> full hop u-air stop working on samus? Also can someone elaborate a little more about the cargo u-throw, full hop and DJ at the apex of your jump u-air on floaties? What % should you start doing this roughly against samus?

 

[Hagrid]

Btw I found another DK. DFU seems to be doing work in the Midwest, which is awesome since AOB is long retired, StrongBad moved to PM, and I moved back to NJ. I can't find the footage, but he beat Kels' Fox in 1 set and Kels' Sheik in 2 sets. He also beat DruggedFox and won a MM vs SFat's Fox lol.

Yeah I've been following DFU for a while on YouTube. He's crisp. From all my DK stalking I can also recommend Mojo Monkey and Iori who are two of my current personal favs.

Here's Mojo making a kid rage:
http://youtu.be/k2rMmZTAxms

And here's Iori's somewhat unconventional but totally destructive DK in action:
http://youtu.be/T2UXQ1zaC74

Of course I'm big fans of you guys as well

The rest of the intricacies are all Chandy secrets. When I'm finished optimizing I'll give a full explanation, but until then I don't want to share for fear of disseminating bad information.

That just got my DKs tie all in an excited knot. Hopefully our brains can comprehend this super secret Chandy knowledge.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

HNNNNNNGGGG

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator/v/30795876?t=2h51m10s

i fixed the link guys, i think

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Forte 3 footage dump! Christmas came early this year.

$20 MM vs Link
$10 MM vs Ness
Pools vs Sheik. Game 2 is a must watch for any Chandy fans, probably close to the best I've ever played in my whole smash career. I didn't make it out of pools because of this loss, but this Sheik player went on to make top 8 so I'm pretty pleased with how it all went down.

The secondary stream hasn't uploaded VODs yet but I had a set vs a really good Ganon player that I had recorded, I'll pass that along when it comes out.

 

[Plunder]

Oh my god I just watched that set with Aza from my usual YT query. I was actually out of my chair jumping up and down and screaming the whole match.

You actually make the Sheik MU look 50:50 (I know realistically it's not at all). But considering that guy seemed to actually know the MU a bit, was a ranked player, he had just beat you JV 3, and you ran it back on the same stage and obliterated him.

Do you think the Sheik MU is close to even with DK at regional level or did you just read the crap out of that player?

p.s. there are some good VODs recently of a player from Madrid called K-12, his DK is pretty solid too. Cool to see good DKs across the pond.

 

[Strong Badam]

Btw I found another DK. DFU seems to be doing work in the Midwest, which is awesome since AOB is long retired, StrongBad moved to PM

My name is two words. =) I also quit DK before I even quit Melee, it's been nearly 3 years since I've used DK at all in an SSBM tournament.

Hope y'all are doing well, though!

 

[NJzFinest]

Strong Badam we still have to do double DK doe. I actually go to big tourneys now