Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[Plunder]

Something I wanted to bring up for DisKussion -

Recently I've been using aerial Up-B in neutral as a mixup and a way to bait/condition.
The aerial version has some more favorable properties than the grounded version, the most important being:

The invincibility on the arms from frames 11-42
A much longer active hitbox time (starts earlier and ends later)
And a much smaller end lag depending on how you time it
retaining mobility and acceleration while in aerial SK

It can be useful to halt approaches, create openings, tack on some damage, throw them off their game (mindgames), conditioning, escape. It's not extremely predictable and it's actually quite hard to react to even when you know it's coming. While approaching and DD/SH/FH/FF you can Up-B right before hitting the ground, or you can Up-B right after jumping. From there there are a million combinations since DK retains aerial mobility while in Spinning Kong. You can fade into them then back, stay in one spot then fade back, go straight into/through them for 20-30 damage, or just fade back to ledge to bait something (land > DD or WD > grab/Bair/etc).

Essentially it acts as a sword with disjointed hitboxes constantly swirling around DK for quite a long time. The end lag is deceptive since most don't know or seem to often forget how quick he recovers from the Spinning Kong (this can create openings or break up momentum)

The downsides are that you can lose your G. Punch if hit out of it, but really this is best used when you still have GP uncharged so you can also use it for turnaround cancels mid-air.

There are of course ways to counter it (as with any strat in this game), but I think it's well worth looking into for higher level DKs since I'm seeing some success with it against local competitive top tiers.

 

[Hagrid]

Forte 3 footage dump! Christmas came early this year.

$20 MM vs Link
$10 MM vs Ness
Pools vs Sheik. Game 2 is a must watch for any Chandy fans, probably close to the best I've ever played in my whole smash career. I didn't make it out of pools because of this loss, but this Sheik player went on to make top 8 so I'm pretty pleased with how it all went down.

The secondary stream hasn't uploaded VODs yet but I had a set vs a really good Ganon player that I had recorded, I'll pass that along when it comes out.

NICE! It's always good to see a DK body a good shiek every once in a while. I actually yelled out 'punch!' when I saw you dair him on the top platform. So cool to see you grant my wish

 

[Plunder]

A few technical questions -

1. Is there something weird with DK's D-tilt or is it just my imagination? It seems like you can do consecutive D-tilts back to back much faster than if I try and do other options after the D-tilt. For example if I try to D-tilt then jump or D-tilt then dash turn > jump > bair it feels like it takes longer to act of the D-tilt. Like there is some kind of wonky IASA frames going on. It IS actually just the 22 frames, right?

2. Concerning the turn around and dash turn.....I noticed that DK's seems much slower than other characters like Pikachu and Fox. ANyone have the data on this and is there a difference b/n his dash turn and tilt turn. I hate seeing DK actually turn around in the animation but then jump facing the initial direction.....the programmers really hated DK

3. Any tips and tricks or info on DK's Auto cancel or Aerial SAF combo possibilities? It seems like you can Bair immediately out of SH then FF and get AC, Up-Air of course can be AC'ed out of almost any time in SHFF....in the air I've been able to Bair > Bair, Bair > Up Air, Nair > Up-B, etc.....are there more?

3. Does DK's large body give any advantages besides easier wall teching? And does his weight afford advantages against being wave shined or other non-obvious things?

 

[CnB | Chandy]

CHANDY THE GOD

Guys, sometimes nair is pretty okay. If you hit with it successfully, make sure to loudly announce "SPIN MOVE!", or alternatively, "CIRCLE BUTTON!" to your opponent in order to establish your dominance.

So guys, what's everyone's favorite Chandy combo and why is it the one I just linked?

Oh my god I just watched that set with Aza from my usual YT query. I was actually out of my chair jumping up and down and screaming the whole match.

You actually make the Sheik MU look 50:50 (I know realistically it's not at all). But considering that guy seemed to actually know the MU a bit, was a ranked player, he had just beat you JV 3, and you ran it back on the same stage and obliterated him.

Do you think the Sheik MU is close to even with DK at regional level or did you just read the crap out of that player?

p.s. there are some good VODs recently of a player from Madrid called K-12, his DK is pretty solid too. Cool to see good DKs across the pond.

Sheik can have a bit of a hard time in neutral against DK despite generally having an easier time winning neutral, probably for the same reasons that it's hard for Sheik to get in on Marth despite her winning the match-up outright. Make use of your excellent crouch cancel and dash dance to bait out bad dash attacks, use your shield sparingly, and whatever you do, don't get knocked down or grabbed because tech chasing fatty DK is free for any competent Sheik. Your recovery is so easy for Sheik to edgeguard it's not even funny, but you can abuse the landing lag on her up-B just like every other character can. With cargo uthrow fair and cargo uthrow uair either taking the stock or continuing the edgeguard, wavelanding onstage and grabbing her during the landing lag is optimal in my opinion. Or just bair her off over and over again.

Early % the punish game is easy, just use your autocancel uairs and juggle like you would Marth. Mid % you'll want to start doing the cargo uthrow dair platform tech chases on reaction, as they're harder to escape. I did a write-up on that regarding the Marth match-up a while back, feel free to check that out. To kill, full jump cargo uthrow double jump uair/fair/punch. That's the cliffnotes version of the punish game, need to do more research.

The match up is still really bad, but I started to pick up on his habits game 2 and it paid off pretty big. Unfortunately he adapted well for game 3. Oh well. Next year! Hopefully I can compete at more big tournaments in the near future.

 

[Plunder]

CHANDY THE GOD

Guys, sometimes nair is pretty okay. If you hit with it successfully, make sure to loudly announce "SPIN MOVE!", or alternatively, "CIRCLE BUTTON!" to your opponent in order to establish your dominance.

So guys, what's everyone's favorite Chandy combo and why is it the one I just linked?



Sheik can have a bit of a hard time in neutral against DK despite generally having an easier time winning neutral, probably for the same reasons that it's hard for Sheik to get in on Marth despite her winning the match-up outright. Make use of your excellent crouch cancel and dash dance to bait out bad dash attacks, use your shield sparingly, and whatever you do, don't get knocked down or grabbed because tech chasing fatty DK is free for any competent Sheik. Your recovery is so easy for Sheik to edgeguard it's not even funny, but you can abuse the landing lag on her up-B just like every other character can. With cargo uthrow fair and cargo uthrow uair either taking the stock or continuing the edgeguard, wavelanding onstage and grabbing her during the landing lag is optimal in my opinion. Or just bair her off over and over again.

Early % the punish game is easy, just use your autocancel uairs and juggle like you would Marth. Mid % you'll want to start doing the cargo uthrow dair platform tech chases on reaction, as they're harder to escape. I did a write-up on that regarding the Marth match-up a while back, feel free to check that out. To kill, full jump cargo uthrow double jump uair/fair/punch. That's the cliffnotes version of the punish game, need to do more research.

The match up is still really bad, but I started to pick up on his habits game 2 and it paid off pretty big. Unfortunately he adapted well for game 3. Oh well. Next year! Hopefully I can compete at more big tournaments in the near future.

Yea I agree with pretty much everything, I do believe there is still a ton of things to be explored. Things that I don't even see you, Phish, or GR use against sheiks. (I'll bring these things up once I have actually tested them thoroughly against local/regional Sheiks that know the MU). First and fore-most using DK's heavy weight and abusing CC into pretty high percents....even against AC Fair > follow-up DKs should be baiting getting hit and prepping a grab/Up-B or other punish. Intentionally getting hit at low-mid percents is a very effective sacrifice with the right spacing. Iori is literally the only DK user that I see effectively use this tactic and he's not even a DK main. Of course you can get grabbed but it's a mix-up (if they approach from air) and not every time will they try and raw boost grab.

The biggest difficulty I see for current DKs against Sheiks is recovery once the Sheik knows the MU well (needles and bairs make it see too easy). But really Sheik recovery is almost as bad from DK's POV. I think capitalizing on a recovering Sheik and never missing a punish when she lands is critical to having a chance (DK has the range and tools from ledge to cover everything on reaction)

 

[Green Ranger]

What do y'all think of Aerial Up-B as an out of shield option?

Seems like it comes out pretty fast and he has invincible arm stuff

 

[Plunder]

What do y'all think of Aerial Up-B as an out of shield option?

Seems like it comes out pretty fast and he has invincible arm stuff

I actually kind of talk about this in depth just a few posts up. I think it's worth exploring in neutral.

If you are the real GR I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Something I wanted to bring up for DisKussion -

Recently I've been using aerial Up-B in neutral as a mixup and a way to bait/condition.
The aerial version has some more favorable properties than the grounded version, the most important being:

The invincibility on the arms from frames 11-42
A much longer active hitbox time (starts earlier and ends later)
And a much smaller end lag depending on how you time it
retaining mobility and acceleration while in aerial SK

It can be useful to halt approaches, create openings, tack on some damage, throw them off their game (mindgames), conditioning, escape. It's not extremely predictable and it's actually quite hard to react to even when you know it's coming. While approaching and DD/SH/FH/FF you can Up-B right before hitting the ground, or you can Up-B right after jumping. From there there are a million combinations since DK retains aerial mobility while in Spinning Kong. You can fade into them then back, stay in one spot then fade back, go straight into/through them for 20-30 damage, or just fade back to ledge to bait something (land > DD or WD > grab/Bair/etc).

Essentially it acts as a sword with disjointed hitboxes constantly swirling around DK for quite a long time. The end lag is deceptive since most don't know or seem to often forget how quick he recovers from the Spinning Kong (this can create openings or break up momentum)

The downsides are that you can lose your G. Punch if hit out of it, but really this is best used when you still have GP uncharged so you can also use it for turnaround cancels mid-air.

There are of course ways to counter it (as with any strat in this game), but I think it's well worth looking into for higher level DKs since I'm seeing some success with it against local competitive top tiers.

 

[Hagrid]

Is it just me, or is it near impossible to hit a standing fox with an Aerial Up B out of shield when facing him front on?

Fox must be deceptively short cos I can seem to hit Falco with it front on.

It's super easy to hit the aerial up B when fox is behind you though. Much easier than the grounded up B. I should use it more.

 

[Plunder]

Yes Fox is tiny, much short than Falco, his tail is easier to hit though.

Also his moves and how his hurtboxes contort make him even harder to hit or punish. I can't stand the spacies F-smash, the hitbox is so large and they retract and can act fast out of it.

 

[Hagrid]

Been quiet around here.

Anyone wanna share any interesting facts about DK they have found out recently?

I learned the other day that doing an instant double jump from the ground under the low battlefield platforms gives DK a lagless landing. The more you know.

What about you guys?

 

[CnB | Chandy]

If you bury Sheik , Falcon or Marth with side-B, you can strong hit grounded up-B them on reaction once the invincibility on their little jump-out wears off, before they can double jump or throw out an aerial. The height of the jump out is always the same so it always works. I've started using it to punish the laggy onstage landing of Sheik's teleport to great success.

 

[jonnobigz]

If you bury Sheik , Falcon or Marth with side-B, you can strong hit grounded up-B them on reaction once the invincibility on their little jump-out wears off, before they can double jump or throw out an aerial. The height of the jump out is always the same so it always works. I've started using it to punish the laggy onstage landing of Sheik's teleport to great success.

Can they DI at all? If not, this is amazing. I have been trying to figure out a punish for this.

 

[Hagrid]

The two DK gods Phish it and Greenranger both at the same tourney? What is this magic?

Greenranger @ Pound:
https://youtu.be/BHNt_KpgGBc

Phish it @ Pound:
https://youtu.be/t4xk3o-4Uws

Phish it has also been a bit more active at other tournies lately?

https://youtu.be/yTuN1d6sjlg
https://youtu.be/-noWweaTg84

Good stuff guys. Would be interesting to hear about the experience from a DK mains eyes.

 

[wutadisaster]

i love it whencommentary is like lol DK and then they go on to just murder and play really well CANT WRONG THE KONG

 

[wutadisaster]

i notice that phish-it uses kongcopter a lot compared to other DK players of watched its something i might work into my gameplay

 

[Hagrid]

i notice that phish-it uses kongcopter a lot compared to other DK players of watched its something i might work into my gameplay

Yeah me too. He uses it from the edge a fair bit to get back on stage, which i might try out a bit more. Its also super good on floaties on low percents (i think cargo up throw to up b is a 43% combo if all hits connect?)

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Guys my Ganon match-up needs work. I tried my best but Kage diddled my doodles pretty hard. Help me out Green Ranger and NJzFinest (and anyone else too I guess).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsScQZWsCH8

This was for 1st and 2nd seed in the first round of bracket pools. Ended up placing 13th overall but this was my only match on stream. Don't pull any punches just because I'm such a cool dude and you all crave my approval, be as honest as possible.

 

[TheBoat]

I've been maining DK for not too long, nor am I a very accomplished player, but I suppose I can point out a few things that may be of use.

I use ledge refresh up b to edge guard ganon more so than bair because the angle is lower and tends to make him unable on use down b ealier on in the edge guard sequence.

Ganons tend to jump a lot, as we all know, so taking advantage of that by reading their jump is pretty good sometimes. You might find the following pretty dumb, but I actually find that jumping (when you read Ganon's jump) and performing an aerial up b towards him is rather useful.
Since it's really fast, I find that the startup invincibility and arm invincibility actually beats out Ganon's fair if they come out at similar times. But most of the time, the up b will just completetly outspeed Ganon's aerial, especailly if you get the good read, which I find is sometimes easy against Ganon's around my level, because they tend to do a lot of aerials. I'm not sure how useful this would be against better Ganons.
It's more doable from a ton of different positions and ranges then all of DK's aerials and it sometimes does more than 20%. It can also lead to a grounded up bp if they DI up for most of it, or simply another aerial up b hahaha. If you can get it out fast enough, I find it's pretty hilarious what it can do.

I know this wasn't insightful matchup advice perhaps, but at least it may start a discussion.

 

[wutadisaster]

Im pretty sure im still missing stuff but i took the whole video thread and put it in one giant playlist plus some of the videos that were in here its something ill try and keep updated https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLi3ZQqPymrsCYxaFn161340zHz_8-DsGd

 

[Plunder]

I honestly believe the Ganon MU is impossible for DK. Even with largely unequal player skill level.

It's just very straight-forward for Ganon because his moveset, priority, and power is just flat out superior in pretty much every way. Plus you can safely stomp the Spinning Kong recovery, it's actually really sad how easy it is starting from very low percents..

 

[Hagrid]

Im pretty sure im still missing stuff but i took the whole video thread and put it in one giant playlist plus some of the videos that were in here its something ill try and keep updated https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLi3ZQqPymrsCYxaFn161340zHz_8-DsGd

This is amazing. Theres a fair few good sets from GR, Phish it and Njzfinest that arent on there but its a start. Nice work!

Speaking of good sets, video of the week is our boy NJZFinest taking it to Hax $ in a hard fought out set:
https://youtu.be/SmT4Ppvt7Eo

 

[wutadisaster]

This is amazing. Theres a fair few good sets from GR, Phish it and Njzfinest that arent on there but its a start. Nice work!

Speaking of good sets, video of the week is our boy NJZFinest taking it to Hax $ in a hard fought out set:
https://youtu.be/SmT4Ppvt7Eo

yeah i started off with what was in the video archive thread, im gunna youtube search some more right now and try and grab stuff i missed

 

[NJzFinest]

What do y'all think of Aerial Up-B as an out of shield option?

Seems like it comes out pretty fast and he has invincible arm stuff

You need it vs Fox since he's too short to get hit by a grounded Up B. Grounded Up B is great when you know Fox is going to jump. I've started doing Aerial Up-B OOS it and it's pretty amazing. Helped me 2-0 Eggm recently LOL. Eggm still has really amazing shine pressure and this helped swat him off me since Fox is never ready to DI when inputting shield pressure strings.

It is also sometimes nice vs floaties since you can combo them into the repetitive hits. I really want to play around with Aerial Up B more after watching all of DFU's videos. The guy has a good idea of it's potential.

Also I somehow beat Qerb. He was playing meh but I think the GnW matchup has a lot to do with staying in shield a bit longer since he expects you to jump out early. Also always having a charged punch is amazing. Punch beats everything, you can even just WD back Punch his Fairs lol.

The two DK gods Phish it and Greenranger both at the same tourney? What is this magic?

Hey I outplaced Phish-it!

*runs*


In other news, New Jersey had a regional but only 3 players from NJ made it to top 8. I am glad to announce Dankey Kang made it boyzzzz. Think I'll stay solo DK for awhile. My current issue actually isn't really Falcos anymore, it's super technical/campy Foxes. I've learned that DK's SH immediate Bair, Fox can just run under it. Fox players are getting to fast and it's so hard to just move.

Whenever I want to wavedash back, Fox is there. DK's WD back is so bad that Fox barely has to over extend his aerial move to hit him. Whenever I want to dash, Fox is there. When I jump, etc.

I'm not sure what to do. SH fade back Fair is nice when they just keep on dashing in but it shouldn't be that reliable. I think I just need to crouch cancel more and actually run up to grab them. Also Aerial Up Bs when you miss a Bair and they try to dash in (the DFU jank strat). ALSO Dash Attack while holding CC (the MEXICAN jank strat) and just SH Uairing near a Fox to catch a jump.

 

[ChivalRuse]

2-0'd EGGM? PogChamp

Rip EGGM! NotLikeThis

 

[NJzFinest]

And then he SUPER DESTROYED losers bracket haha. Went all the way to Grand Finals set 2 game 5.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I enjoyed your set with CopyCat, mainly because you guys look like twins.

 

[Hagrid]

Hey I outplaced Phish-it!

*runs*

Y u no stream

Nice job though. Who/what knocked you out in the end?

 

[NJzFinest]

I enjoyed your set with CopyCat, mainly because you guys look like twins.

LOL we get that so much

Y u no stream

Nice job though. Who/what knocked you out in the end?

I lost to Chu Dat Day 1, didn't do too bad.
I lost to a Fox player named SG Day 2. He super camped me but I would of won if I correctly finished a last stock/game combo.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah SG is from College Park, where I am.

 

[NJzFinest]

I'm gonna destroy him next time :^)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Good luck, man. Have you fought Peanutphobia yet?

 

[StarEmblem]

Any good tips on maining Falco, Marth, or Kirby?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Don't try to play Kirby seriously unless you have extremely good fundamentals and are willing to study the character's hitboxes and frame data extensively. The character is very hard to play.

 

[StarEmblem]

Alright, then any tips on maining Falco or Marth?

 

[Hagrid]

Alright, then any tips on maining Falco or Marth?

You realise this is the DK discussion thread right? :D

Probably best to check out the marth/falco threads for that. People here probably dont main them.

 

[Soupeschleg]

The best thing about playing DK is how sick your falco's movement is in friendlies.

 

[jonnobigz]

Chandy,

I've been working on weak hit bair to strong bair as an edgeguard. Really useful for mid percents where a bair won't kill but 1.5 will.

Also using reverse bair to punish things while facing the opponent is really fun. It combos into punch at relevant percents and is open for creativity

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Yeah, weak bairs and reverse bairs are rad as fudge, bro. Short hop weak reverse bair on a grounded Marth or Sheik is a free giant punch or dash grab. For offstage swag, weak reverse bair into fastfall strong hit aerial up-B. Weak bair into strong bair is called the Hidden Dragon, Strong bair weak bair strong bair is called the Forbidden Dragon. Weak autocancel bairs on shield into immediate up-B will catch people way off guard because they expect to get a free shield grab. I use it on Tirno here and Kage here. Autocancel bair into immediate up-B is called the Crouching Tiger. Remember the names! Shout them out whenever you get them to bring shame to your opponent and hype to the venue because you're so flippin' dope and you play DK so everyone knows it already but sometimes you gotta tellem know what i'm sayin bro alright okay alright

I had two good matches recorded against a Peach and a Sheik this last weekend. These aren't match-ups we see a lot of recent good footage for so I'm glad to share them here. Please let me know if there was anything I did that was particularly smart or dumb that you would like me to discuss further.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtoqackB_Ak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UumWNGkpQ5w

 

[CnB | Chandy]

So there's this 11 year old Falco player in my region, he comes to stuff with his younger brother. He has some really good tech skill, but lacks experience and suffers from the fact that he is eleven and I am a grown ass man with a college degree. He tried to camp me pretty hard unsuccessfully and I 2-0'd him. I gfycatted the most impressive read, but there were other moments that were pretty neat too. He did not take the loss well, but I wasn't gonna sandbag or anything. Especially not on stream.

https://gfycat.com/NarrowSevereCranefly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_inVLIQ2ypQ

Him being 11 aside, it's a good watch for how to play against tech skill heavy Falco users who attempt to camp but aren't used to camping. If you have trouble with Falcomasters in pools (we all do sometimes), note that this kind of playstyle shift typically occurs in your average Falco player on their second or third stock, especially if you like combo the shucks out of them early on. Depending on how shaken they get they might play the whole second game in this flustered "lasers for the sake of lasers because please don't grab me bro" mentality.

You have to capitalize on the already unfun thing that a Falco lasering in place under a side platform represents, so be annoying by avoiding the laser spam with your vertical mobility and platform movement. Full hop double jump bairs with varying fastfall and drift are effective for coming down on Falco towards the end of a laser, but don't get too predictable with them because they'll start calling you out with utilt, which you can do nothing about because it's really good. Also, just because you're focused on avoiding the laser wall doesn't mean you shouldn't also be very concerned about how you hit Falco's shield when you do manage to get through. I see DK players get baited into trying to punish what they think is an unsafe laser but then at the last second the Falco gets his shield up and you get grabbed or shined out of shield because you just lunged at them with bair and didn't think about whether or not it was a bair worth going for.

Another good match of me vs Falco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc9-Vw8sBfY

The campy Falco match-up is all about staying the zen, guys. You just have to accept the following facts: 1) I am going to be lasered a lot trying to get in 2) a lot of the time when I do get in, I'll probably get ****ed up because Falco is still really good up close, 3) I will be buffering roll out 90% of the time if they're decent at shield pressure, 4) if I give Falco any wiggle room he'll retreat back to neutral and laser me and I won't touch him again for thirty years, and 5) he is not having any fun either, so I should make it really not fun to him because this match-up is just an ugly curbstomp otherwise.

Remember that you can kill him at any point! If you take lasers but maintain stage control and let them affect you as little as possible, they can't win him the game outright and you just keep chugging with the bairs and the platform movement. Eventually you can force him to make decisions and if he's scared or bored or mad then they might be bad decisions. Then you just have to convert a bad decision into a grab or an up-air and you can take the stock. Your punish game has to be so precise that you have to take it as a given that you kill him off of every other grab or so to even think DK has a chance at a high level of play.

Still a terrible match-up and I recommend a secondary if you have one, but if you get counterpicked by it and have no choice or are otherwise forced to play a Falco, you should know what to be thinking. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Soupeschleg]

Kids going to tournaments at 11yo...

future melee is gonna be too good