Q&A The official "Ask Your Questions" thread

[phish-it]

When a Fox is Up b'ing diagonally there aren't many moves of DK's that will hit him out of it. Your best bet is to grab the ledge and back air. But you can't always just ledge hop and land on the stage with it, you need to position yourself so Fox flies into your huge foot. If they sweetspot the edge from below it's better to drop down, jump bair, then up b back to the ledge. It's hardest to bair a fox recovering to the ledge at a 22.5° angle but it can be done.

Aerial up B can hit Fox out of the firefox too, but you usually need to time it so you hit with the initial invincible hit. If the Fox doesn't sweetspot perfectly you can do hit them with a bair while you're on stage, fully charged giant punch works too. Dtlt and Ftilt will most of the time trade, but sometimes loses completely, usually not worth attempting. Fsmash will always lose to the fire, but if you see them in a position where they can't sweetspot, you can punish them hard while in the short duration they are free falling with it. Jab can hit Fox out of his up B if he is recovering low, I never really use this vs fox but I should probably experiment it. There are also situations where down smash (fist hitbox) can work as well.) Ledge hop Dair is good if they are recovering low, but hard to position if they are recovering at 45 degree angle.

In the end you're going to want to be using bair and up b to deal with it most of the time. Dair if they are recovering low.

 

[Green Ranger]

I'd say the best thing to do against foxes recovering very low is to quickly hog the ledge and then do a quick ledgehop upB. It can be pretty tough to pull off, though.

Another thing I sometimes do is a runoff bair towards the stage. If the fox isn't expecting it (he angles the firefox to hug the wall), he'll get stagespiked. If the fox knows that it's coming, he can easily deal with it (by either teching or just angling the firefox to hit you).

 

[LiteralGrill]

Alright, I'm currently trying to update the Game and Watch matchup guide, and since I haven't played many good DKs I thought I'd ask how should a DK player be playing against a G&W?

 

[NJzFinest]

GW can't really stop him from spaming back airs. Also cause of the lag from his aerials, it's not too hard to dash dance grab him when he fairs. Cargo upthrow to Uair kills early.

 

[JRad]

Any DK's going to ROM?

 

[Cactuar]

Why does donkey kong's donkey dong have a hitbox here... it's not even connected to the bair foot hitbox...

 

[phish-it]

Any DK's going to ROM?

I'll be at Rom, and I believe Green Ranger said he'd be going too.

Why does donkey kong's donkey dong have a hitbox here... it's not even connected to the bair foot hitbox...

Probably the same reason his tie has a hurtbox.

 

[Green Ranger]

I'm not gunna be at ROM Saturday. (I might be there Sunday, but most likely not). I didn't buy bus tickets early enough and all the redeyes are sold out :<

Good luck in tourney Phish-it! I'm sure you are going to wreck it!

 

[JRad]

You are doing well so far. To answer Cactuar, Sakurai wanted DK mains like us to give you the ****

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i'm getting to the point where i want to develop a few secondaries just to round myself out as a player. i've been focusing all my attention on ganon for the past year or so and have found that i can barely play other characters adequately anymore. while i'm far stronger with ganon than i ever was with any character before in my whole smash career, i've gotten worse with other characters, if that makes any sense. i used to have an average tourney level marth and now it's complete trash for example.

so i decided to pick a low tier and a high tier. from friendlies and comboing on level 4s, i think i have the most potential with falco and dk. falco i know what to do to improve because i've watched a lot of falco matches and know what the character's capable of from tournament experience. but dk is something else. i have good combo intuition but i don't know how to really "train" my dk like i do my falco or my ganon.

i guess my question is, where do i start? is dk a technical character that i should spend time practicing things by myself? i have good people to play against i could pull dk out on, but i'm talking about what i can do when i'm not with people to improve.

 

[JRad]

What I do when im not playing with people is practicing my platform game and waveland from the ledge. Wavedashing from the ledge is important for reasons like any other character but also because once you are over 100 its really all you got other than up b shenanigans. Platform game with DK is so important because it is how you deal with a lot of characters projectiles as well as fend off from approaches. You can always practice wavelanding on platforms. Shield drop back airs are what im working on right now, another useful option. Other than that you could practice chaingrabs and the like although I tend to find that not as useful seeing as they don't DI like real people.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i can imagine shield dropped uairs would be another really useful move fyi, specifically used as a defensive tool against shield pressure on a platform. although i'm not sure if that'd be faster or better than an oos up b.

 

[JRad]

If they are on the platform with you, it would definitely be better than OoS upb. Up b is pretty baitable and pretty circumstantial based off of spacing which people who are knowledgeable about the matchup know to avoid. Even if you land it, you might get the soft hit which is not enough to knock them off the platform and if you cant end your upb by grabbing ledge, as in you are in the middle part of the stage then you will get punished for sure. Shield drop uair/bair basically takes the same amount of tech skill so I should have said shield drop in general but I am glad you mention shield drop uair because I think that would be really good against characters like falcon who will come in with a full hop nair or dair

 

[X WaNtEd X]

spent an hour, fully learned ledge canceling with dk. shield dropping is pretty solid from ganon experience, but could learn it better with dk. getting the uair or bair out as fast as i'd like from a shield drop is not what usually happens with dk right now. once i get that down, i'll have some pretty interesting tools to work with.

 

[DocDK]

RIP in peace DK community. Gone but not forgotten.

 

[NJzFinest]

DK has always had the lowest representation, the DK forums was actually the lowest in post/thread count compared to the others for as long as I can remember (excluding the MLG Bum era). Sure there's more tournament DKs than Pichu/GW/Kirby, but those characters are still more popular because of how gimmicky they are. I'm sure they pop up more cause of friendlies and what not. DK isn't even fun to use until you've kinda learned him lol.

 

[gencore]

Yo, I was on here asking questions almost a year ago, and since then I've switched to shiek. However, I prefer DK, so I would like to use him if possible. In what matchups is DK usable (40/60 minimum), and where can I go to learn such matchups?

 

[phish-it]

Marth and Jigglypuff are the most manageable matchups of the good characters. Mid tiers are fine too if you run into them.

 

[JRad]

Honestly your opinion of what matchups are going to change a lot as you play DK, and its really going to just come down to who you have in your region and how well your opponent knows the matchup. I used to think falcon wasn't that bad but then I started playing against good falcons and it seems like almost anything DK does besides backair is unsafe because of how fast he is. I kind of still think falco is DK's worst matchup but I've gotten really comfortable so I don't really mind it.

List of Doable matchups in order (my opinion):

-The plumbers (at least 50/50)
-Marth (Probably DKs best relevant matchup)
-Ganondorf
-Puff
-Falcon
-Samus
-Yoshi
-Fox (On a good day, where your punishes are on F'ing point)


Debateable:
Fox (When not 0 to deathing on every grab)
Peach
Ice Climbers

Not Doable:
Falco (if he has good lasers) Sheik (if she is playing half campy and never lets you CC grab) Pikachu (fsmash ledgeguard pretty free and 1 bad uair and you are a goner)

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

hey what are the things to practice with DK as a beginner to the character but not to the game?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hm. Interesting that you think Pikachu counters DK so hard. These mid tier mains got so many "understands" that I be lacking. ;-p

 

[JRad]

hey what are the things to practice with DK as a beginner to the character but not to the game?

Wavelanding on platforms is crucial. Dropping from platforms with backair is the best and safest way to pressure people imo. Also pratice wavelanding on stage.

Practice spacie chaingrabs. Put the CPU on lvl 3 and get used to how much knockback your uairs will do. The lvl 3 cpu will always not DI the first cargo uthrow and then always DI away, but the important thing is that you are learning how to do things like uair -> regrab at mid low percents or like 2 uairs in one full hop etc.

The biggest and most important thing about DK in my opinion when it comes to improvement, is memorizing percentages and what you can do based off their DI. If you know what punishes you can get all percents you can focus on everything else, which is what really separates the top DKs from the good DKs.

Not trying to brag and I could be wrong, but I think I am up there in terms of DK mains. However players like Phish-it, Eikelman, and Green Ranger are definitely a level above me because they are amazing at selecting the right move and timing/spacing it correctly. It feels like the only way to successfully play DK is by choosing the right option in almost every situation because if you dont, all of the other ones will most likely get you punished (because DK is fat with slow moves). Definitely asks the boards questions or feel free to message me if you need specific matchup knowledge. All DKs want to see all other DKs succeed, we just need more of us lol

 

[phish-it]

Here's my general matchup opinions:

Crap:

Falco
Peach
Ice Climbers (This might potentially be DK's worst matchup but I don't have a whole lot of experience playing it to really come to a conclusion)


Bad but doable:

Sheik
Fox
Captain Falcon

Disadvantageous but manageable:

Marth
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Samus
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi?


Evenish:

Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf
Link

In DK's favor:

Everyone else

Jordan, care to share why you think the pikachu matchup is so bad? I played Axe in a few friendlies at Evo and the games were close, I don't think it's really that bad at all.

 

[JRad]

Here's my general matchup opinions:

Crap:

Falco
Peach
Ice Climbers (This might potentially be DK's worst matchup but I don't have a whole lot of experience playing it to really come to a conclusion)


Bad but doable:

Sheik
Fox
Captain Falcon

Disadvantageous but manageable:

Marth
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Samus
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi?


Evenish:

Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf
Link

In DK's favor:

Everyone else

Jordan, care to share why you think the pikachu matchup is so bad? I played Axe in a few friendlies at Evo and the games were close, I don't think it's really that bad at all.

Alright I wouldn't put him in the same tier as Falco, Sheik, and Peach in terms of difficulty. I would put him in your "bad but doable catergoy". If you got some games in vs. Axe and have advice please share because its very rare to play against a good pikachu.

Here is kinda where im at: Pikachu has an assortment of good moves which he can ledgeguard you with. Uair, neutral b, down b and fsmash namely. If he ever lands the uair spike hitbox while you are without a jump or using up b you are pretty much dead since the knock back is too much. If you ever try to grab ledge with up b coming from an angle above stage, you will get fsmashed. Pika doing a jump off jump back on down B covers the sweetspot option where you up b just out of ledge range and then fall and snap to the ledge using ledge grab. On the other side, I think DK has some trouble ledgeguarding pika, particularly out of his up B. I won't say ledge guarding the little guy is impossible, but ledgehogging isnt as effect for DK as other characters due to the fact that his aerials are all some what laggy off the ledge so as long as the pikachu doesnt float his up b too high i think he will be fine. His juggle game on DK is also really good, low percent upsmash combos can lead into big damage. The biggest thing for me is dealing with pikachus speed. DK has a really hard time dealing with his cross up speed/ability and I find it hard to pressure him because of his movement. That being said, I think we can definitely put some hurting on the mouse with good upair strings, and you can definitely get plenty off of cargos. Tilts are also fairly decent against pikachu although I find my dtilt sometimes getting traded with CC downsmash if I dont space it perfectly.

 

[Stevo]

Hey DK players. I made a thread about mashing out of grabs with DK, but I thought I'd post here too just in case.

What methods do you use to mash out? What do you do when you do escape a grab?

 

[JRad]

Honestly i usually end up using a tilt because it works on everyone and I never have to think about which character I am mashing out against. I usually just roll sticks and nothing else, its natural for me. I don't consider myself a good masher because I normally dont start mashing until they start pummeling since my first though is to DI the throw. Most of the time I just click a few buttons loudly so they stop pummeling unless its a rare circumstance where the pummels will matter

 

[Green Ranger]

Why is the peach matchup so terrible? It's in peach's favor for sure, but I always thought that characters like sheik and falcon were a lot harder to deal with.

 

[JRad]

DK has no answer to turnip+aerial approaches. You pretty much dash/roll away or jump to platform so you give her a lot of stage control. Cargo punishes aren't as good on her so kills are less reliable. If she is on a platform above you, you have to respect that and can't really challenge or you eat a 60% downsmash so she has more freedom then some characters on platforms. You also can't shield downsmash and you have to lightshield if she does a floating fair at the right height. Downtilt isn't as good as a pressure tool thanks to cc. I basically just feel like im spamming bair/ftilt and waiting for grabs to get my 1 aerial punish. Donkey punch is do or die in this matchup

 

[Stevo]

DK has no answer to turnip+aerial approaches. You pretty much dash/roll away or jump to platform so you give her a lot of stage control. Cargo punishes aren't as good on her so kills are less reliable. If she is on a platform above you, you have to respect that and can't really challenge or you eat a 60% downsmash so she has more freedom then some characters on platforms. You also can't shield downsmash and you have to lightshield if she does a floating fair at the right height. Downtilt isn't as good as a pressure tool thanks to cc. I basically just feel like im spamming bair/ftilt and waiting for grabs to get my 1 aerial punish. Donkey punch is do or die in this matchup

I just had a no cash tournament in my area where I went all DK. I played against a peach player in Winner Semi's I think it was. Essentially, everything you just said is very accurate. What I found in this matchup is that you should catch turnips if peach throws it from far away, and don't be afraid to slowly charge your punch whenever you have the opportunity. Shielding is always a bad idea in this matchup, so roll away if you have to (you will have to).

I think sheik is still the worst matchup for DK, though I make room for the idea that Pikachu could also be terrible.

What stretegies do you guys use against sheik?

 

[NJzFinest]

What do vs campy Marths?

edit:

I think Sheik is worse than Peach/ICs. She can actually chaingrab DK and angled needles are too good vs his recovery.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wild Carl appeared!

Against marth I would space with your back and kick him if he comes at you. But its a little transparent so try to hide that you are doing it You can also DD camp him back, your grab is basically the same size. Don't go above him. I dont think its that awful for DK compared to the other top tiers. I agree that sheik is probably his worst MU

 

[NJzFinest]

Sheik is her worst MU and Falco is simply nonexistant / 100-0 / why am I playing dkkkkk

 

[phish-it]

I guess I don't think the sheik matchup is as terrible as I used to.

I feel like Ice Climbers are worse, but they are often overlooked because of how rare they are. As lackluster Dk's approach options are in general, they are mitigated even further when he loses his ability to dash dance grab, and has very few moves to safe hit their shield with. Likewise, DK isn't a character that can punish people for missing grabs very well, so grabbing vs him is generally low risk high reward, and when getting grabbed by ice climbers it's potentially a stock so the reward factor is even more significant.

My opinion on Peach changes too, I guess I just feel it's incredibly difficult if the Peach is familiar with the matchup and plays it right. Also Green Ranger is probably better at the matchup than I am.

 

[JRad]

What do vs campy Marths?

If what you are talking about is a heavy run away Marth or someone who tends to camp shield you really need to focus on mixups. I have a campy Marth I play in Gainesville and it can be hard sometime. Biggest thing is not using "random" grabs because this is the easiest way for marth to punish you - missed grab = anything Marth wants since he has huge range. It is absolutely imperative that you are using late bairs and mixing in empty short hops. IF he cant figure out when you are throwing out moves it is hard for him to know when to go in. Late bair -> UpB is a really good option if you notice him camping shield. DD dtilt is a relatively safe option in this matchup, if he shields it and tries to aerial out of shield you can CC grab or do another tilt. When I know i have him trapped near the ledge or in shield i like using backair -> ftilt. If you need any help in figuring out to cargo combo Marth I can explain more but marth is also really easy to gimp with cargo downthrow offstage. DO NOT FORGET ABOUT FTILT - ftilt is an amazing tool in this matchup and it can help you combat his shffl game.

What stretegies do you guys use against sheik?

Campy sheiks are a nightmare plain and simple. I platform camp sheik really hard and rely heavily on drop down bairs. Crouch canceling is also really effective against sheik. At low percents you can CC her dash attack/tilts and then use one of your tilts or grab. I really don't recommend trying to approach too much, use your drop down bairs and dtilt. I like to use ftilt in this matchup as more of a "surprise" factor kind of thing. Dash dance is crucial in this matchup and you always want to DI away on downthrow unless you can get to a platform. If you are DIing down and away she cant regrab you until about 58% (I tested this). If you DI behind her or not at all you can get regrabbed at almost any percent. Never DI behind her if you won't get to a platform because at 100% she can sweetspot upsmash you for the kill. As for comboing sheik, this is the flow chart I tend to follow:

0-30% -> Cargo upthrow into uair chain. You can really combo the crap out of sheik, and I think she is probably the second easiest character to 0 -> 60% after Roy. (Before you flip out I am saying a grab at 0 on sheik requires nothing but constant uairs, no regrab and she cant jump out of you are fast enough)

30-50% -> Are there platforms? No. You can do cargo fullhop into uair or just normal cargo upthrow uair. Try to catch her as she as falling but the second uair might not be as easy as she might jump out

Yes -> Cargo full hop into dair and then tech chase. Regrab or do an fsmash if you are confident you know where she will go.

70-90% - Cargo fullhop into uair/bair depending on where she will go. If it is a sheik with bad DI or doesn't know matchup you can cargo fullhop fair.

90%-115ish%+ I usually cargo full hop fair. Higher than that just cargo fullhop uair.

Here is a link to a Sheik I played in a South Florida local. Although I got away with it this time NEVER go to FD against Sheik imp. Platforms are such a necessity. 5:40:44. Special treat at 5:46:30ish
http://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/b/548904879

Please critique also

 

[Strong Badam]

What do vs campy Marths?

edit:

I think Sheik is worse than Peach/ICs. She can actually chaingrab DK and angled needles are too good vs his recovery.

If you SDI up, needles HELP your recovery. All they do is give Sheik laziness to time ftilt/fair against his upb which you should be sweetspotting anyway.


DK'S WORST MUS IN ORDER

Falco


Sheik
Falcon/Fox
Samus
Peach/ICs

Puff/Marth

 

[NJzFinest]

Wow, I'll have to try that, sounds neat.

And wut Samus is so free. She has no answer to Bair, Punch, and Ftilt + you live forever + cargo upthrow to Uair kills ftw.

 

[Stevo]

I think on some stages Samus could be very difficult, especially with good missile game/camping. DK is like the perfect target for missiles lol

 

[NJzFinest]

I know what you mean. I've seen DC Scribz have a hard time with Samus. He kept trying to shield missles and got shield poked all day. I was playing a Samus not too long ago in tourney... I was losing bad until I realized I could just B-air everything and should shield less. The lamer you play the easier the matchup is. I only disliked the matchup when I played Spaceballz. He moves too weird... good thing no other Samus plays that way.

 

[Stevo]

well, I admit that thus far I have been able to beat Samus players, but there have been some stocks where they do those double missiles on say PokeStadium and I just get wrecked lol

 

[JRad]

Critique please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZd9TyE0ai8