The Official 64BR Recommended Ruleset

[WindMajor]

ok so you wouldn't be playing ssb any more. You'd be playing a game that is similar but ever so slightly better. I don't see the problem.

The problem is that you replaced SSB with another game. In other words, SSB as we know it is dead.

Also let's say I buy a new SSB game and want to hold a tournament. Should I be able to use gameshark to turn item switch on?

If you're going to hack the game to do something that's within the game's boundaries, then you aren't doing anything wrong. After all, the cartridge recognizes "Item Switch On" without codes, right?

Instead of hacking the game to change it completely, you would instead be hacking the game to replicate it, but in a different state.

 

[Glöwworm]

My response "well first you have to practice hitting Z EVERY TIME YOU HIT THE GROUND WHILE DOING AN AIR MOVE". Then they're like "uh yeah let's go back to playing 200% with items"

Sounds like fear mongering to me (albeit not intentional). It's like if someone asked how I shine cancelled and I said "You need to jump and then execute the shine at frame(s) so and so." You kind of make it seem so hard to do when it's really not.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of other tech skill things in the game. It's just that none of them are as essential as z canceling.

Exactly. If they aren't willing to learn the most essential aspect of the game, then there's a high chance that they aren't willing to learn the other techniques and imo, they're harder than Z-cancelling.

It's not even close. And for some characters (Falcon, Kirby) you don't really need any other tech skill to be really good (Fox and Yoshi are probably not examples here). Plus the other things you need to do tend to be more fun than learning to hit Z with a certain timing EVERY TIME you hit the ground while doing an aerial.

Well, of course, Falcon and Kirby are noob friendly. If you practice that boring Z button input after an aerial move, it actually becomes second nature and then you can focus on said fun stuff.

Also my other point was that some people like Z cancels because it allows them to beat other people that don't Z cancel. So once you know about this secret technique you automatically become better than your friends. Obviously there is much more to the game once everyone can Z cancel.

I've never heard of people like that but if there is people that do think that, then that's kind of lame. I never once thought "I like to Z-cancel because it gives me an advantage over others that don't." Seriously, this is news to me lol.

As for making SHDL and shine cancel easier - sure that would be nice. But there isn't really a good way to do it. It wouldn't make sense with the rest of the control scheme to map "shine cancel" to top-C or anything (what would it be for other characters?). For Z canceling there is an obvious way to eliminate a completely unnecessary button press.

I was playing a bit on that notion Felipe and NovaSmash made about why not macro other things so that Smash has less technical barriers.

 

[ballin4life]

No, see, I get what you're saying, but it's not true. Z-canceling is bad, but it's a really minor issue because:

1. The game is fun for noobs even without it

Not when they play against me.

Also I don't find the game fun without Z canceling.

2. It's not hard to learn (this coming from me)

What do you mean by this? It definitely takes some practice.

3. You can be OK without it

no way

Sounds like fear mongering to me (albeit not intentional). It's like if someone asked how I shine cancelled and I said "You need to jump and then execute the shine at frame(s) so and so." You kind of make it seem so hard to do when it's really not.

my phrasing was a joke.

Exactly. If they aren't willing to learn the most essential aspect of the game, then there's a high chance that they aren't willing to learn the other techniques and imo, they're harder than Z-cancelling.

But they wouldn't need any other techniques to be decent with some characters. Also as I said other techniques aren't so boring to train.

Well, of course, Falcon and Kirby are noob friendly. If you practice that boring Z button input after an aerial move, it actually becomes second nature and then you can focus on said fun stuff.

If you practice yes. But forcing people to put in that practice is dumb and unnecessary from a design perspective.

I've never heard of people like that but if there is people that do think that, then that's kind of lame. I never once thought "I like to Z-cancel because it gives me an advantage over others that don't." Seriously, this is news to me lol.

An extremely common argument in this debate is "Z cancels separate noobs from pros! They increase the skill gap!". But of course it's actually strategy, edgeguarding, etc. separate the pros from the rest. The mediocre competitive players often like it though because it separates them from the people that don't know how to Z cancel.

I was playing a bit on that notion Felipe and NovaSmash made about why not macro other things so that Smash has less technical barriers.

Yeah ... and that's what I was responding to. Sure, there are a few other things in the game that might be unnecessarily technical to do, but Z cancels are a much bigger issue since they are used all the time by all characters and could be drastically simplified by removing an unnecessary button press.


It seems like we're going in circles here. I'd like someone to address my "you have to level up to 70 in WoW, and that reduces the competitive PvP community" or "why not make it so you have to press aaba to do an attack instead of just a?" arguments.

The problem is that you replaced SSB with another game. In other words, SSB as we know it is dead.



If you're going to hack the game to do something that's within the game's boundaries, then you aren't doing anything wrong. After all, the cartridge recognizes "Item Switch On" without codes, right?

Instead of hacking the game to change it completely, you would instead be hacking the game to replicate it, but in a different state.

Uh yeah, SSB as we know it is dead. You know what's currently dead? SSB with items. What's the difference?

Turning on certain stages with Gameshark seems like it's "within the game's boundaries" to me, but again I don't see why that distinction is important anyway.

 

[ciaza]

All my noob friends have a lot of fun playing without z-cancelling, but it's not hard to learn. I was playing against my irl friend Jimmy, told him how to do it and he was doing it consistently every time after that. He could just be talented at the game naturally though, i dunno.

You definitely can't be good without it though.

Just some quick chime ins barely related to the issue at hand.

 

[Sangoku]

Z-cancelling is so hard, even after more than a year of competitive play I can't z-cancel.

 

[felipe_9595]

Z Cancel is the most easy and a esential part of the game. You dont need to practice 64's Z cancel. In melee you ahve to PRactice L Cancel and tech and ledgetech and all that stuff because you have a smaller windows. in smash 64 you can literally mash z to cancel an attack, and not fail once. Is a technical abrrier. but not a big one. if they cant Z Cancel, they will not be able to do SHort Hops, or Shien Cancels, or DJC, or Pivot, or ROck Cancels, or SHDL, or .... well, you get the point.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Just want to point out that mashing z means you might accidentally shield after landing and look like an idiot and also give your opponent a window to apply shield pressure etc.

 

[felipe_9595]

And thats why is a tech barrier, even if is an easy one.

I am still shocked about how our BBR thinks an esential aspect of the game is useless. Is like to say Wavedash is an useless tech barrier and an unnecesary input in melee.

 

[ciaza]

It's not useless. We're saying that it's useless to have an INPUT for it, and that it should be automatic.

 

[Olikus]

Surely no one can tell me that if the original SSSB did not have item switch to turn off items, then a mod was released to add item switch to the game making it exactly as we know it now, that everyone would shun the mod and claim we should not use it?

This^

The problem is that you replaced SSB with another game. In other words, SSB as we know it is dead.

Read the other post I just quoted. If items code to turn off wasnt original in the game, you would refuse to mod it? People here actually saying they woudnt play something better, because then its not what it was, no matter how much worse it is?

The funny thing is people actually agree that it would be better they just dont wanna do it. They are rather stubborn, than changing something too the better.

Im amased......

 

[felipe_9595]

It's not useless. We're saying that it's useless to have an INPUT for it, and that it should be automatic.

It shouldnt, is a tech barrier god. Reread my posts.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Star King, as usual...was too right

 

[NovaSmash]

if u want a game without canceling just play brawl, if u want a game with auto canceling then keep dreaming...its not gonna change so no reason to talk about it.

 

[felipe_9595]

if u want a game without canceling just play brawl, if u want a game with auto canceling then play brawl+

Fixed.

Also Brawl+ died because it was too easy.

 

[Dingus]

Im a scrub, so you can ignore me if you like, but Im with Ballin on this. All Z-canceling does is separate the mediocre players from the bad high level players and therefore reduce the size of the competitive pool.

For good players it just becomes this extra button everyone has to press all the time, but it doesnt really add any depth. In the high tier, it looks like no one messes up their z-cancels, so it doesnt do anything to separate high level players

 

[felipe_9595]

Oh so what if a pro fails a z cancel in tourney? What happens? he gets punished. Is a necessary input because its a tech skill barrier and if you dont do it you get punished if you dont want get punished for r
pressing a button go to play other game, like brawl , where you barely get punsihed at all xP

 

[NovaSmash]

Im a scrub, so you can ignore me if you like, but Im with Ballin on this. All Z-canceling does is separate the mediocre players from the bad high level players and therefore reduce the size of the competitive pool.

For good players it just becomes this extra button everyone has to press all the time, but it doesnt really add any depth. In the high tier, it looks like no one messes up their z-cancels, so it doesnt do anything to separate high level players

...z canceling isn't what is reducing the number of people who play smash 64. I honestly don't remember practicing z canceling that much at all. If z canceling was auto people would still not play 64 because there are so many other things it takes to become a good player that people would have a hard time mastering.

Oh so what if a pro fails a z cancel in tourney? What happens? he gets punished. Is a necessary input because its a tech skill barrier and if you dont do it you get punished if you dont want get punished for r
pressing a button go to play other game, like brawl , where you barely get punsihed at all xP

this

 

[TANK64]

And thats why is a tech barrier, even if is an easy one.

I am still shocked about how our BBR thinks an esential aspect of the game is useless. Is like to say Wavedash is an useless tech barrier and an unnecesary input in melee.

No, because wavedashing is not always the best option. Not nearly. It's just one option- one way of moving. Z-canceling, however, is always the best option (with the exception of 2 moves or whatever). So it really is unnecessary, as to be really good you should be way past that. Also, I've heard Melee backroom people say that L-canceling is useless(since waaay back) for the same reason lol. They just stopped talking about it since...it's in the game already. So:

1. Why are we still talking about this (AGAIN!!! really?)

2. Wait, how did I get pulled in?.... FUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Oh so what if a pro fails a z cancel in tourney? What happens? he gets punished. Is a necessary input because its a tech skill barrier and if you dont do it you get punished if you dont want get punished for r
pressing a button go to play other game, like brawl , where you barely get punsihed at all xP

So say my opponent messed up a z cancel with their character. I get a free punish that I did not deserve to get.

Fighting games should be about spacing and being able to out-yomi your opponent, not relying on missed z cancels rofl.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

I agree with Boom. There's absolutely no reason for Z cancelling to be in Smash 64. Technical barriers are much less acceptable in this game than in Melee, as if you hit somebody they're probably dead. In Melee if you miss an L-Cancel, it may or may not be a huge deal. In 64, you miss a Z-Cancel (friendlies last night with battlecow) you WILL get ****ed up, 9 times out of 10.

You're probably about to say "Well you shouldn't miss a Z-Cancel in that case" but that isn't the point. The point is that it's something that just shouldn't be in the game, period. Ability to execute it is irrelevant, because everybody misses Z-cancels sometimes, and often times it is the deciding factor in a match when you do.

 

[felipe_9595]

I agree with Boom. There's absolutely no reason for Z cancelling to be in Smash 64. Technical barriers are much less acceptable in this game than in Melee, as if you hit somebody they're probably dead. In Melee if you miss an L-Cancel, it may or may not be a huge deal. In 64, you miss a Z-Cancel (friendlies last night with battlecow) you WILL get ****ed up, 9 times out of 10.

You're probably about to say "Well you shouldn't miss a Z-Cancel in that case" but that isn't the point. The point is that it's something that just shouldn't be in the game, period. Ability to execute it is irrelevant, because everybody misses Z-cancels sometimes, and often times it is the deciding factor in a match when you do.

Thats is excatly the point. You commited a mistake, you get punished. Is your fault if you fail a Zcancel. I will punish you if you miss one. I Totally deserve it because you failed at do something simple. And thats why is an esential factor. If you miss, it decides a match. Simple. Thats how Smash64 is played. Deal with it.

And Boom, you totally deserve it because your oponent failed, he commited a msitake, you obtain a reward.

 

[NovaSmash]

too bad z canceling will be in this game whether you like it or not so time to move on to next topic

 

[Glöwworm]

I can tell some of you guys will enjoy traditional fighters if not you already play them. Smash is not a traditional fighter. I fail to not see the connection between missing a Z-cancel and getting punished for it, and spacing badly and getting punished for it. Both are done consciously so what then? Anyways, going with that shtick Boom is going for, fighters should not have any platforms or ledges like in Smash because that deters from the core gameplay. Also, you're supposed to die in the hands of your opponent, not because you accidentally fell off the stage by air dodging or accidentally fast falling from the ledge after attempting to get back on.

@Tank

Wavedashing is everything lol. Try not wavedashing when you have a Marth that spaces everything correctly with wavedashing. You'll get graped.

@Ballin

First define "legit" PvP matches and then I'll give you a response.

 

[ballin4life]

All I meant is that if you aren't level 70 you will generally lose to someone that is. So in order to play the game at a high level you have to put in hours of boring, repetitive leveling before you get to the fun part (PvP).

And again Z cancel lovers, why not make the timing window for Z cancels even smaller? Why not make it 2 frames? Why not make it so that you have to press Z every time you do a standing move? Why not make it so you have to press Z every time you jump? Why not make it so you have to press Z every time you move the control stick? Why not make it so you have to press ABAA to do a move instead of just A?

 

[Glöwworm]

All I meant is that if you aren't level 70 you will generally lose to someone that is. So in order to play the game at a high level you have to put in hours of boring, repetitive leveling before you get to the fun part (PvP).

Uh, you can still have fun in Smash without knowing how to Z-cancel. Unless high level play to you is fun. This isn't some kind of RPG where you have to level up or something to get a cool and stronger up smash.

And again Z cancel lovers, why not make the timing window for Z cancels even smaller? Why not make it 2 frames? Why not make it so that you have to press Z every time you do a standing move? Why not make it so you have to press Z every time you jump? Why not make it so you have to press Z every time you move the control stick? Why not make it so you have to press ABAA to do a move instead of just A?

I'd say that this is a slippery slope.

Oh, and Melee already did that timing window for L-cancelling smaller for ya

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

too bad z canceling will be in this game whether you like it or not so time to move on to next topic

It isn't like we're arguing objectivity. We're just arguing whether Z cancelling should be in the game or not, not if it's already in the game and is there to stay.

 

[ballin4life]

Uh, you can still have fun in Smash without knowing how to Z-cancel. Unless high level play to you is fun. This isn't some kind of RPG where you have to level up or something to get a cool and stronger up smash.

Actually I don't find non Z cancel Smash fun personally. Again though my point was that the COMPETITIVE community is smaller because of Z canceling.

And yes, I'm making an analogy between spending time practicing Z canceling and spending time leveling up. Because both are boring.

I'd say that this is a slippery slope.

Oh, and Melee already did that timing window for L-cancelling smaller for ya

What do you mean by "this is a slippery slope"? Your argument justifies the changes that I proposed.

 

[TANK64]

@Tank

Wavedashing is everything lol. Try not wavedashing when you have a Marth that spaces everything correctly with wavedashing. You'll get graped.

Umm No lol jajajaj hahaa fjdkas;fjsakl;fdsalLMFAO!!wtfWRONGIDIOTjustDIE!!YOHJDFKjklasjkldha
*breaths*
I ain't even mad though...

First of all, did you read my post? I didn't say wavedashing was useless, or even close to that. I said it should not be used as the only way to move on the ground. If you don't run/dash/pivot, and exclusively wavedash then you're doing it wrong, and yes using/fighting certain char increases or decreases the usefulness of wavedashing. What I was saying is that comparing it to canceling doesn't work because there should be different input for different options- where as canceling is always the best option, and just an extra input.

I ain't even mad though...

too bad z canceling will be in this game whether you like it or not so time to move on to next topic

^^I'm SAYIN'.

 

[Sempiternity]

Z-cancelling adds a challenge, and that's why I like it. We've beat this horse dead into the ground a million times before, so to each his own. I'm just saying that I like that extra element of skill it adds to the game. It's nothing over the top or ridiculous and actually makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Pressing ABAA to do a jab just makes no sense. If I fall IRL, I'm going to put out a hand to recover quicker. Same applies to Smash.

The converse of your argument also applies, ballin. If I'm playing a standard fighting game, shouldn't the combos be much easier to perform? If I wanted to perform a hadouken, simply pressing A instead of a whole mess of buttons is so much easier, so why don't they do that? They should just make the best combos mapped to single buttons since I really don't want to learn the button combinations and strict timing and just want to improve at other aspects of the game.

Cancelling is Smash's way of making the game more like your standard fighting game. Many moves that have multiple hits, like drills, require fewer button presses than hits. Pressing Z in between attacks keeps the button combinations going and adds some flavor to how well you can combo. My combo deserves to be cut short if I miss a cancel, in the same way that I don't deserve to complete my ultimate Street Fighter combo if I miss a silly button input halfway through.

I will admit that cancelling is kinda broken in this game, since it removes all landing lag, and creates such a massive difference between those who can and can't do it, but I love the idea. Keeping a vigilant eye, watching out for yourself and putting that arm out to break your fall does add more depth to the game.

If we were to ignore cancelling altogether, what makes more sense? A game where you have landing lag when you fall while your legs are outstretched in a split, or a game where you hit the ground and stand up immediately, regardless of if you're landing on your head or back or something? Autocancelling is just plain stupid. If you're going to remove cancelling, you need to leave the landing lag (barwl) or you'll end up with a broken game where aerials are unpunishable, easy to execute, and zero risk (relatively speaking).

YES I KNOW THE LAST PARAGRAPH IS CONTRADICTED BY SMASH64. I'M SAYING IT RIGHT NOW: SUPER SMASH BROTHERS 64 IS BROKEN. PLAY MELEE INSTEAD.

 

[ballin4life]

Z-cancelling adds a challenge, and that's why I like it. We've beat this horse dead into the ground a million times before, so to each his own. I'm just saying that I like that extra element of skill it adds to the game. It's nothing over the top or ridiculous and actually makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Pressing ABAA to do a jab just makes no sense. If I fall IRL, I'm going to put out a hand to recover quicker. Same applies to Smash.

Pressing ABAA to do a jab makes no sense why? You know that to jab in real life you have to do at least 4 different muscle movements (shoulder, tricep, forarm, core, etc). Of course, it's obvious that extra button presses are dumb (except when it's something that you're used to). Why not make it so you have to Z cancel standing attacks, and give it all 1-frame timing so we can see who really is pro.

The converse of your argument also applies, ballin. If I'm playing a standard fighting game, shouldn't the combos be much easier to perform? If I wanted to perform a hadouken, simply pressing A instead of a whole mess of buttons is so much easier, so why don't they do that? They should just make the best combos mapped to single buttons since I really don't want to learn the button combinations and strict timing and just want to improve at other aspects of the game.

Combos should be easier to perform in the sense that there shouldn't be 1-frame timing on them. Also Sirlin did exactly what you're talking about when he made HD Remix: he took the ridiculous tech skill barrier out of certain moves (like T Hawk's 360 throw) and making them easier to do.

Cancelling is Smash's way of making the game more like your standard fighting game. Many moves that have multiple hits, like drills, require fewer button presses than hits. Pressing Z in between attacks keeps the button combinations going and adds some flavor to how well you can combo. My combo deserves to be cut short if I miss a cancel, in the same way that I don't deserve to complete my ultimate Street Fighter combo if I miss a silly button input halfway through.

Uh, you know that there are other ways to miss combos? Like actually doing the wrong move?

I will admit that cancelling is kinda broken in this game, since it removes all landing lag, and creates such a massive difference between those who can and can't do it, but I love the idea. Keeping a vigilant eye, watching out for yourself and putting that arm out to break your fall does add more depth to the game.

It adds no depth at all, because it's pretty much always better to Z cancel than not Z cancel.

If we were to ignore cancelling altogether, what makes more sense? A game where you have landing lag when you fall while your legs are outstretched in a split, or a game where you hit the ground and stand up immediately, regardless of if you're landing on your head or back or something? Autocancelling is just plain stupid. If you're going to remove cancelling, you need to leave the landing lag (barwl) or you'll end up with a broken game where aerials are unpunishable, easy to execute, and zero risk (relatively speaking).

Ok, so the constraint on smash is realism? That's a pretty silly idea in a game where a mid air jump exists. And seriously, if it makes you feel better just put in an animation of the character "putting his hand on the ground" right at the end.

YES I KNOW THE LAST PARAGRAPH IS CONTRADICTED BY SMASH64. I'M SAYING IT RIGHT NOW: SUPER SMASH BROTHERS 64 IS BROKEN. PLAY MELEE INSTEAD.

Oh hey another person in the smash64 forums talking about how Melee is the greatest! I'm really sick of this ****. If you want to talk about how Melee is the best take it out of the ****ing smash 64 forums.

 

[Pi]

@glowworm

mm my samus no wavedash style?

 

[Battlecow]

Z-cancels are like increasing returns to scale.

They just don't fit into ballin's view of the world as it should be.

ZING!

 

[ballin4life]

Z-cancels are like increasing returns to scale.

They just don't fit into ballin's view of the world as it should be.

ZING!

I think this one is going over my head.

 

[Battlecow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Returns_to_scale

It's why having one (federal) post office or power company makes sense. Having parallel infrastructures would be inefficient.

I hate explaining jokes.

 

[felipe_9595]

So in your opinion teching is a unnecesary input?? So in your opinion, i dont have to get punshied if i miss a cancel or fail a tech??? Go to play with stars on high if you dont want to get punished. Or more simple. Dont play smash 64 and leave the backroom if your mentatily contradicts a basic aspect of the game.

Sakurai4life

 

[ballin4life]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Returns_to_scale

It's why having one (federal) post office or power company makes sense. Having parallel infrastructures would be inefficient.

I hate explaining jokes.

I know what returns to scale are. I didn't see the connection to me though. I thought maybe you were making some super old debate hall reference but wasn't sure. Heaven knows I can't remember all the stuff you or I have said there.

Anyway having one company still doesn't make sense due to the problems of monopoly. Sure, if you could have a perfectly efficient business in this "natural monopoly" industry then that would be great, but in reality monopolies just don't have an incentive to be efficient.

Also the post office is a horrible example. Seriously.

So in your opinion teching is a unnecesary input?? So in your opinion, i dont have to get punshied if i miss a cancel or fail a tech??? Go to play with stars on high if you dont want to get punished. Or more simple. Dont play smash 64 and leave the backroom if your mentatily contradicts a basic aspect of the game.

Sakurai4life

Teching isn't really an unnecessary input, because sometimes you don't want to tech. If it were always better to tech than not tech, then it would be.

My opinion is that your results in the game should come primarily from strategy and mindgames, not tech skill. The reason competitive games are interesting is because you are playing against someone else.

 

[Glöwworm]

Umm No lol jajajaj hahaa fjdkas;fjsakl;fdsalLMFAO!!wtfWRONGIDIOTjustDIE!!YOHJDFKjklasjkldha
*breaths*
I ain't even mad though...

First of all, did you read my post? I didn't say wavedashing was useless, or even close to that. I said it should not be used as the only way to move on the ground. If you don't run/dash/pivot, and exclusively wavedash then you're doing it wrong, and yes using/fighting certain char increases or decreases the usefulness of wavedashing. What I was saying is that comparing it to canceling doesn't work because there should be different input for different options- where as canceling is always the best option, and just an extra input.

I ain't even mad though...




^^I'm SAYIN'.

Oh lol, for some reason I could've sworn you said something like a one-liner talking about wavedashing. Hence why I didn't bother to quote. MY BAD

Umm No lol jajajaj hahaa fjdkas;fjsakl;fdsalLMFAO!!wtfWRONGIDIOTjustDIE!!YOHJDFKjklasjkldha

wat

@Rock NoJohns Lee

Sure, I'll fly out to Florida in a bit.

 

[felipe_9595]

I know what returns to scale are. I didn't see the connection to me though. I thought maybe you were making some super old debate hall reference but wasn't sure. Heaven knows I can't remember all the stuff you or I have said there.

Anyway having one company still doesn't make sense due to the problems of monopoly. Sure, if you could have a perfectly efficient business in this "natural monopoly" industry then that would be great, but in reality monopolies just don't have an incentive to be efficient.

Also the post office is a horrible example. Seriously.



Teching isn't really an unnecessary input, because sometimes you don't want to tech. If it were always better to tech than not tech, then it would be.

My opinion is that your results in the game should come primarily from strategy and mindgames, not tech skill. The reason competitive games are interesting is because you are playing against someone else.

Then go to play Chess. You dont nneed techskill and you need to use mindgames. Period.

Smash 64 =/= Chess

 

[asianaussie]

felipe, you don't even know what you're talking about.

There is no reward for not z-cancelling unless you play jiggs, and even then it's not that big a deal - hence you can basically say that z-cancelling is always the better choice. Because of this, it's necessary for high level play. Z-cancelling is uninteresting and is needed to get to the interesting part of the game, which is the main problem.

I remember last time this dumb debate came up I initially disagreed, then eventually agreed with ballin or whoever it was because they made a lot more sense.

 

[felipe_9595]

I am not saying Zcancel is not always the best option (i agree with that point, is obvius you have to zcancel all of your moves in order to play at high level) but what happens when you DONT press that "unnecesary" input??? You get punished because you commited a mistake. Mistake => Punishment. Is a basic law in any fighting game. What happens in Street Fighter, if , fo example, my opponent is jumping above me and i try to do a Shoryuken to counter the jump, but instead of pressing F,D,DF,F,Punch i press D,DF,F Punch and do a hadouken instead??? You get punished, because i commited a mistake based on my techskill. Veryone can fail a Z cancel once, and they will get punished for it.

I really cant believe the mentality of the 64BB, is like heard little kids whining about how they have to press an extra button o-o