The Official 64BR Recommended Ruleset

[asianaussie]

The different between those two is that you have the option of using the shoryuken or guarding or god knows what instead, whereas in smash there is no reason to not Z-cancel.

In many fighting games moves cancel into each other rather than having to be cancelled by smashing the stick backwards inbetween moves. That's the difference, you don't have to have an arbitrary input inbetween moves.

If you think we're 'whining about button presses', think again. Everyone here can play the game, we all Z-cancel efficiently. Newbies cannot, and find this barrier pointless and irritating. It takes a significant level of interest to really get into the good part of the game, because you have to trudge past this pointless techskill barrier.

 

[felipe_9595]

Again, you bare proving my point. If they cant Z Cancel, they cant play 64. Simple. even more. If they cant Z Cancel they cant play fighting games. Is a so simple technique. Is tech skill barrier for something. it was mean to be broke. If you cant get past that tier barrier they can get into competitive game. And even if they can get past the Z Cancel abrrier they have to get past over 8000 other tech barriers that are infinitely more harder than a simple Button press between combos.

To me, a Z Cancel is the equivalent to DHC on MvC. Is not hard, haves a big frame windows, is a tech barrier but is incredible useful (in the 99% of the combos a DHC is the best option)

 

[asianaussie]

I'm pretty sure DHC is just a safer method of tagging out that eats a meter, and if it is, it's incomparable to Z-cancelling, a universal tech option which must be done every time you aerial, whether that is for combos, spacing, baiting or anything else.

DHC is only done when you want to switch characters (and given the way MVC3 is played, you don't do it nearly as often as you Z-cancel in 64). Besides, Z-cancel has to be made unconscious, whereas inputting two hyper combo commands is ridiculously easy and doesn't apply to every aspect of gameplay. Your comparison is like comparing apples and pears, pointing out some superficial similarities between two fundamentally different things.

The real point is, removal of Z-cancels would not change the way we play the game at a competitive level. Once you get to a high level you've definitely mastered this fundamental skill and it's no longer a problem, but the point is that it's a barrier to people who play casually, stopping them getting into the game proper.

 

[Sempiternity]

Z-cancelling sort of evolved into my gameplay. I never saw it as a barrier and thought, "Oh hey, a way not to get destroyed when aerialing. Neat." It all meshed together, and I never practiced it, just slowly picked up the habit, forming muscle memory and it was all dandy from there. As I got better at the game, I naturally got faster, and cancelling is just a part of moving faster. Looking back, I never saw it as drudgery or even remember consciously making an effort to cancel. It just happened because I really liked the game.

If somebody's going to throw away the game because they think a certain aspect is stupid, then they clearly don't like the game enough to want to get better. It's part of the game, and if you're truly interested in improving your skills (like all of us are), then it's no biggie. But for noobs, I can see how it can be a turnoff, but the way I see it, let them struggle. Let them crash and burn. I do NOT want to competitively play a game with somebody who doesn't care to get better or isn't playing for the love of the game (sounds like sports, haaaa).

Sadly, that's all I have (on console, at least), so I deal. I have way more fun playing against people who have a genuine interest in the game (even if they suck mad balls), because I like the determination and attitude and will to get better. I also like the idea of rewarding players who care enough to get good at a game by researching ATs and practicing. Cancelling does just that. It separates those who ****ing love this **** from the casuals.

This is why I don't like Melee. It's possible to be a good scrub at Melee because it's much faster, easier to spam, and less punishable as a whole. You try to employ the same **** against a semi-competent 64 player, and you'll get wrecked. I know tons of people who are better than me at Melee, simply because they are adept with the C-stick and shield-grabbing.

Also, it's possible to get to a competitive level at 64 relatively quickly, but with Melee, it'll take years upon years upon years to get anywhere near being competitive with top players. I'm pretty sure I had a concluding thought here, but it escapes me.

 

[felipe_9595]

And again asian, you have prooved my point. If they cant Z Cancel and dont want to improve, is not my fault, is their fault.

And also, have you seen tourney matchs with people failing a z cancel??? yes. What happened to that guys?? They got punished fo that, is an esential aspect.

Also, i was talking about Marvel 2. Marvel 3 sucks balls.

 

[asianaussie]

Doesn't matter, your comparison fell through, showing you don't understand the points being made. All you're saying is 'he doesn't want to learn i dun wanna play with him xDDDDDDD'. If you want this game to expand its community, that's not the attitude to take. Rather than being accusatory, I'd rather a few more people picked up the game and learnt how fun it is at a high level without going through that phase of being utterly destroyed by those who can Z-cancel.

This is a moot point, given that removing Z-cancels isn't an option, but the point is that Z-cancelling is a barrier that has no real use to the community, because anyone who truly has no interest in the game would abandon it regardless of a need to Z-cancel or not.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I think a huge reason I'm not very good at melee is because of the dum tech skill barrier. I swear I miss half my L cancels in that game.

 

[Glöwworm]

Either

a) Too used to 64's Z-cancelling timing (or how easy it is rofl)

b) Don't have enough practice/memory muscle

Just like 64, play Melee more and it'll become easy.

 

[ballin4life]

and now we have moved into the phase where Z cancel lovers, after repeatedly losing every argument, resort to using positive rather than normative descriptions, saying "well Z cancel is in the game, so if you can't Z cancel you aren't good". No ****ing **** sherlock. We are arguing about how the game SHOULD BE, not how it is.

 

[Glöwworm]

Ah, theorycrafting...

The guys at Emudigital should make a GS code that cancels automatically and put it to the test.

 

[kys]

Star King is a prophet.

The people against z-canceling have a point, but you guys are exaggerating waay too much. It's not that hard to learn. Has it deterred a few people from picking up smash competitively? Possibly. But there's about a million other things that keep our community small, with z-canceling probably accounting for a tiny, insignificant percentage.

But like aa said, the point is moot. Long live z-canceling. (I don't have strong opinions either way, I could take it or leave it)

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Either

a) Too used to 64's Z-cancelling timing (or how easy it is rofl)

b) Don't have enough practice/memory muscle

Just like 64, play Melee more and it'll become easy.

a) I'm not sure. I don't spam it so it shouldn't be a problem.

b) This is untrue.

I've been playing melee since 05 on and off. I know the timing for L cancelling and techs, but boy do I **** them up a lot in that game.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

The extra button matters when you're just chilling out with your friends, because you won't get good matches with them unless you either sandbag or they actually put in the effort to learn these techs, which is uncommon. I've had excellent matches with my friends before I learned these techniques, but after I learned them I'm sure I'd stompt hem due to the sheer frame advantage I gain to add to my advantage over them. I don't mind it in competitive play(it's pretty nice over there), but it is a barrier for casual players that makes comp. players really not enjoy casuals any more.

 

[The Star King]

I remember last time this dumb debate came up I initially disagreed, then eventually agreed with ballin or whoever it was because they made a lot more sense.

This is what happened to me

I'm much less reluctant to concede to ballin, though, because Fireblaster's an ***hole

Getting some major deja vu here

 

[ciaza]

I ****ing miss Fireblaster so much.

Funniest ****.

My dream to this day is see him get into an argument against Budget Player Cadet. Won't happen though.

 

[The Star King]

Star King, as usual...was too right

Star King is a prophet.

I know this section all too well

Especially since ballin's involved. He never gives up an argument. Probably why he had a debate hall addiction lol

 

[ballin4life]

I know this section all too well

Especially since ballin's involved. He never gives up an argument. Probably why he had a debate hall addiction lol

You know it's true when battlecow's casual mention of natural monopolies prompted a response from me haha

 

[felipe_9595]

Ah, theorycrafting...

The guys at Emudigital should make a GS code that cancels automatically and put it to the test.

I will tell them to not ever create such a monster.

And the comunity is small because this is a 13 Years old game. You cant revive such and old game. Same for MvC 1 or any old game, they will die because they are old, you cant blame z cancel.

 

[ballin4life]

Street Fighter II is much older but people still play it. And those that do are almost all competitive players, where most of the people that still play smash64 are noncompetitive.

 

[felipe_9595]

Street Fighter II is much older but people still play it. And those that do are almost all competitive players, where most of the people that still play smash64 are noncompetitive.

Really? I havent see anyone playing SF II Competitively in the last years. If you are talking about SSF II HD Remix then thats is another history...

 

[Fish641]

Counter-strike's comparably old and exceedingly popular.
I play offline with a couple guys around my skill level and like 5 other guys that are trying to improve but are significantly worse. They miss z-cancels or forget about them, despite a couple of them understanding deeper concepts. If z-cancels weren't in the game, the skill gap would be smaller and the game would be more enjoyable, even though my comparative advantage would be lessened. There's no decision about whether to z-cancel or not, so the "skill" of z-canceling is you against the game, rather than you against your opponent, which makes it inherently a noncompetitive attribute to the game.

 

[felipe_9595]

But counter is counter xD Is a computer game, still supported by the company and it even haves a "remake" (Source)

 

[Battlecow]

I know what returns to scale are. I didn't see the connection to me though. I thought maybe you were making some super old debate hall reference but wasn't sure. Heaven knows I can't remember all the stuff you or I have said there.

The connection to you is that you have to go "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" whenever they're mentioned so that your silly politics makes sense. Ergo, they don't fit into your worldview.

 

[ballin4life]

The connection to you is that you have to go "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" whenever they're mentioned so that your silly politics makes sense. Ergo, they don't fit into your worldview.

I have never done that. You be trippin dawg.

it's funny though that my "silly politics" consistently crushed the debate hall though.

 

[Battlecow]

I'm not saying you have done that. I'm just saying you would have to if someone did bring them up.

Debate hall is full of morons, I never cease to be surprised at how often I win arguments that I'm wrong in.

 

[ballin4life]

I'm not saying you have done that. I'm just saying you would have to if someone did bring them up.

uh no I wouldn't, as I explained already. Incentives are not in place for monopolies to provide things efficiently

Debate hall is full of morons, I never cease to be surprised at how often I win arguments that I'm wrong in.

haha

 

[ciaza]

Debate hall is full of morons, I never cease to be surprised at how often I win arguments that I'm wrong in.

If this were true you wouldn't be in the DH


You've yet to thank me for nagging at Acrostic like a child whining for a toy he wants by shouting the same arguments over and over until he caved, btw.

 

[asianaussie]

the fact that battlecow got into the debate hall is testament to how easy most people there are to beat in debates

there are some intelligent people in there

 

[The Star King]

what do you even argue about

maybe I should go skim it

 

[ciaza]

I argued for Battlecow's admittance to the DH.

He argued against it.

It was pretty funny.


Otherwise he just makes topics and takes the extreme stance which annoys newbies to no end.

 

[asianaussie]

i claim full credit for making the center stage interesting/relevant again

 

[Battlecow]

If this were true you wouldn't be in the DH


You've yet to thank me for nagging at Acrostic like a child whining for a toy he wants by shouting the same arguments over and over until he caved, btw.

Thank you.

 

[Pachinkosam]

yup i listen and u guys make the ideas!!

 

[xxbroken-gloryxx]

Is there anyway a player that uses emulation (keyboard) WAYYYY more than a controller could use the keyboard in a tourney? Could I just bring a keyboard with me?

 

[M!nt]

no

keyboard players suck

 

[TANK64]

Is there anyway a player that uses emulation (keyboard) WAYYYY more than a controller could use the keyboard in a tourney? Could I just bring a keyboard with me?

There are online tournaments (I don't know how frequent). You can check the online events link:
http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=208

Regular tourneys IRL are on the N64.

So no.

 

[Surri-Sama]

If you want this game to expand its community, that's not the attitude to take

The irony here cannot be contained!!

 

[The Star King]

There might be a keyboard to N64 adapter out there?

Of course you'll probably be beat behind the venue for being a fake smasher

P.S. I read some old posts in this thread and what the **** at some of the arguments that went down

P.P.S. Stop acting superior all the time Surri it's getting old. And that's coming from me

 

[ballin4life]

I like how this is rated as a 5-star thread.

P.S. I read some old posts in this thread and what the **** at some of the arguments that went down

In completely unrelated news, I have a crapton of posts in this thread. Can't believe I got baited into ANOTHER z canceling argument. Actually I totally can believe it lol



Found some gems rereading:


huge LOL at this (talking about how the public voted yes on having a backroom)

-The public voted yes on it.
-If the Backroom voted on it, "no" would probably win.
-The Backroom was made to make decisions for the community.

That's irony at its FINEST if you really think about it. Seriously, LOL.

These posts are also pretty funny in hindsight

I remember last time this dumb debate came up I initially disagreed, then eventually agreed with ballin or whoever it was because they made a lot more sense.

This is what happened to me

I'm much less reluctant to concede to ballin, though, because Fireblaster's an ***hole

Getting some major deja vu here

 

[The Star King]

I was annoying @_@

Even moreso than now I mean