Star King sheds more light on his mysterious past. Possibly what remains of his conscience subconsciously surfacing in order to give me yet another clue, that I might do a Half-Blood Prince style investigation, discovering his secret weakness just in time to save the galaxy from his iron-fisted rule?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Official 64BR Recommended Ruleset
- Thread starter asianaussie
- Start date
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Bump.
The first of (maybe) a few gameshark-related additions: Stages.
Use of Gameshark to manage stage hazards is up to the Tournament Organiser. Hyrule without tornadoes and Dreamland without Wind may treated as:
The first of (maybe) a few gameshark-related additions: Stages.
Use of Gameshark to manage stage hazards is up to the Tournament Organiser. Hyrule without tornadoes and Dreamland without Wind may treated as:
- The same stage as their unchanged counterparts
- Separate starter stages to be stricken (list: Congo, Hyrule, Hyrule w/o Tornadoes, Dream Land, Dream Land w/o Wind)
- Both separate starter stages and counterpick stages
- Counterpick stages only
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
I think what this is starting to come down to is in reality, the rules list is up to the TO.
Not just for specific, already accessible stuff, but even things such as modding the game it self.
TOs can make Master Hand legit if they want, whos to stop them.
Not just for specific, already accessible stuff, but even things such as modding the game it self.
TOs can make Master Hand legit if they want, whos to stop them.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Dunno if BF and FD are tournament-viable or even stable. Just because Melee and Brawl have them in lists doesn't mean we need them.
Ultimately up to the TO.
Ultimately up to the TO.
Look, it has nothing to do with Melee or Brawl, AA. It's just completely stupid to add in GS stages but not the two super-balanced GS stages that are already included in the game.
You don't know if they're tournament-viable? Seriously? Come on, dude. It's a flat platform and a flat platform with three little platforms. I think we know.
Yeah, it's up to the TO. But if you're gonna add in a special proviso for the modded DL/Hyrule, you have to put BF/FD in there too.
You don't know if they're tournament-viable? Seriously? Come on, dude. It's a flat platform and a flat platform with three little platforms. I think we know.
Yeah, it's up to the TO. But if you're gonna add in a special proviso for the modded DL/Hyrule, you have to put BF/FD in there too.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
I didn't mean viable in the gameplay sense, I meant it in the get-set-up-and-working sense.
Modded DL and Hyrule are very easy to get working, whereas making FD/Battlefield part of stages for an entire tournament (never mind offline) is hardly a simple task when you have people struggling to download from mediafire (poor example but my point stands). If you want to have them as optional, then fine.
Also, super-balanced? Nar.
If it means that much to you, sure, but any TO worth their salt should be able to make these decisions. No quick-edits is killing me.
Modded DL and Hyrule are very easy to get working, whereas making FD/Battlefield part of stages for an entire tournament (never mind offline) is hardly a simple task when you have people struggling to download from mediafire (poor example but my point stands). If you want to have them as optional, then fine.
Also, super-balanced? Nar.
If it means that much to you, sure, but any TO worth their salt should be able to make these decisions. No quick-edits is killing me.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
TBH I don't think this was worth even adding to the ruleset *rolls eyes*. Everything is up the TO. This ruleset is Backroom recommendation, so simply saying it's up to the TO is worthless. If you're not making a recommendation, don't include it all.
Adding this only creates little squabbles that basically stem from the age-old should-hacks-be-tournament-standard debate.
...I probably should have said this earlier.
Adding this only creates little squabbles that basically stem from the age-old should-hacks-be-tournament-standard debate.
...I probably should have said this earlier.
After playing melee for about 2 weeks (and already being better than aa after I beat him in a best of 5 match), I think Final Destination would be a really cool legalised map. I don't know anything about how hard or easy it is to get certain codes working however, so this is merely my 2 cents. If one person there knows how to get it working that should be enough, even if everyone else is technologically inept.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Maybe, but I really don't think the ruleset should open the can of worms that is modding the game to make it better competitively.
I don't think being better than the worst Smash player in the world is very difficult BTW.
I don't think being better than the worst Smash player in the world is very difficult BTW.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
it's not hard to be better than me at smash lol
in fact, you've probably played melee more in those two weeks than i have my whole life
in fact, you've probably played melee more in those two weeks than i have my whole life
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
This is the answer i wanted a while ago, but couldn't come up with it.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
BF's bad ledges aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'm very unhappy with this decision and I don't see why this has already made it here as "official". Allowing gameplay mods, no matter how minor, is a slippery slope that must be avoided at all costs.
Everyone read some of this please:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309529
asianaussie
Smash Hero
If that's how people feel about it, then it won't be added it into the ruleset. I could put it in some sort of collapse tag with big 'this is not recommended' labels on it, or I could cut it out period. I'm doing the former for now, but I'm not adverse to the latter.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I think that unless people can make a very strong case arguing for it to be included it should be outright removed, if not explicitly banned.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Rather strong stance to take. I'm leaving it as is right now, and I'm certainly not for specifically banning it.
Outright banning something (even in a 'recommended' ruleset) really deters people. I feel mods like removing tornadoes or wind are harmless and arguably competitively beneficial, given other measures are taken to prevent camping etc (which isn't really stopped by tornadoes, to be fair).
Outright banning something (even in a 'recommended' ruleset) really deters people. I feel mods like removing tornadoes or wind are harmless and arguably competitively beneficial, given other measures are taken to prevent camping etc (which isn't really stopped by tornadoes, to be fair).
I remember I was opposed to getting rid of stage hazards in that other thread a while ago. To me it's sort of like the decision to not have a video referee in soccer. It takes away from what the game truly is. Bad argument I know, but I'm fine with having whatever in the Recommended ruleset - because it's just that: recommended. TO should decide what will work best for the most amount of players.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
I think this guy said it best.
Once you do something beyond what the original game was meant to do, you are playing another game.
Sangoku
Smash Master
How about items then? You're going to say "you can legitimately remove them". Okay, but you can also play on FD and BF, just not in VS mode.
And that right there will be the next anti-GS stage argument. The GS stages are pretty wonky IMO. Some of them have bad ledges, the stage is too small, blastzones are either too close or too far apart and other stuff. Though, I think the secretive emudigital team has the abiltiy to change blastzones and other things so it might work. I wish they were more open about their findings. For example, apparently they have a code for Melee white and black Kirby? ****. I want that code.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Tis as glowworm said...we DO in fact play in VS mode, so unless you can find some way for us to play VS mode with a legit FD or BF, there is no reason to even talk about it 
ballin4life
Smash Hero
you forgot metal mario. that stage is awesome. and no cloud yoshi.
also how to play and kirby beta 1 should be counterpicks
why should it be avoided at all costs?
I've repeatedly said that the main issue here is implementation.
uh so what? if it's a better game that's what matters. that's why we make a rule set in the first place.
Ballins got it. Changes so it gets better>keeping it worse since we are afraid of changes.
Even if its a 10 year old game. Comservatism is not the way to go. If its possible to make new rules, which can make the game better, thats excatly what we should do. As ballin said, thats why we made a ruleset in the first place.
Allmost everyone agrees on items banning for competitive play. Theres no reason the same thing should go for nados even if its not possible without codes.
Picture you Genesis 2 grand final last match, when armada starting his beast combo at mango...oh suddenly a tornado stops by and catches armada. -_______-
A tornado would never been allowed in either brawl or melee, and it shouldnt be allowed in 64 either.
Ive allso recently experienved that the DLwind can be pretty irritating too. So its a good recommondation to get rid of those two hazards.
If we had more stages we could ban DL and hyrule but we dont, so its leaving us with what we have. Ofc its up to the TO, but its still a legit solution, and i see no problem in having it mentioned in the backroom recommended ruleset.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
We make rules to make the game more fair and competitive yes, but you are not talking about rule here, it's about using a mod.
Hyrule nados? "Uh so what"
Why are you afraid of change?
I simply like playing smash64.
First "Better" is simply your opinion, secondly...and again, rules and mods are different things.
Items are not mods, stop with the comparisons that are not close.
Picture a game where luck can co-exist with skill, and then you'll be able to imagine that and not care. Smash64/melee/brawl all have their slightly random / slightly broken events that MAKE THIS GAME.
Not sure what this has to do with anything.
Wind harzard isn't even that bad lol...DRAMA
It's like "The Ben" said, with competitive play you should work around what you are given, accept that the game you play may have some random factors, and learn to use them to your advantage.
We work with what we have, and the best is hyrule and DL and Congo....without items...this is the game i enjoy.
Twinkie from the brawl section also had an interesting way to put it....
If you can rationalize playing a modded version of a game, you might as well be able to rationalize being able to play hide and seek for the finals of genesis 2 instead of smash64.
Radical as that maybe no matter how many people agree to the change, cheating is still cheating...and that's all this is.
NTA
Smash Lord
Melee needs tornadoes. Dreamland's wind helps with edgegaurding. Problem solved.
Destiny Warrior
Smash Apprentice
My experience isn't as wide as most of yours so pardon me if I'm ignoring something big, but why is Zebes not a counterpick? (Note I ask counterpick, not a neutral, because just like Peach's castle, it has an element associated with KOes.)
True, the lava prevents direct downward KOes. True, it does 16% damage with good knockback, and KOes at 100%+. However, before the lava rises, there is an earthquake to indicate it is abotu to rise. After that, it doesn't earthquake for every single rise or fall, but it stays close to the stage level, so people *know* fully well it can cover everything except the top platform. There is reaction time to push to the upper platforms.
The lava restores your "third jump", so characters who've got good recoveries(who'd normally be getting back on other stages without hassle)) will get back. The exceptions are Yoshi, who gets screwed very very hard by this stage imo, and Jigglypuff, who can't gain vertical height and is a lightweight. They get utterly boned, but they are by no means the top of the tier list.
The lava adds to the whole of the edgeguarding game, because now you may have to fend off multiple recovery attempts, and they can potentially return from under the stage like in Kongo Jungle, but if it isn't banworthy on KJ, it shouldn't be banworthy here.
For people who say "100%+ characters are getting KOed instantly", let me ask you, against a good player, how often is a 100%+ character going to survive after being spiked, unless they have amazing recovery?
I can't see Zebes being overly favourable to any character(unlike say, Yoshi's Island(with the clouds of course), so I feel it warrants being a counterpick.
EDIT: With regards to the proposed GS mods, I think modding the game doesn't serve any purpose and only serves to split what I see to be a rather small community, so even if you ignore the ethical argument of "this is not SSB64", you'll probably split the community).
True, the lava prevents direct downward KOes. True, it does 16% damage with good knockback, and KOes at 100%+. However, before the lava rises, there is an earthquake to indicate it is abotu to rise. After that, it doesn't earthquake for every single rise or fall, but it stays close to the stage level, so people *know* fully well it can cover everything except the top platform. There is reaction time to push to the upper platforms.
The lava restores your "third jump", so characters who've got good recoveries(who'd normally be getting back on other stages without hassle)) will get back. The exceptions are Yoshi, who gets screwed very very hard by this stage imo, and Jigglypuff, who can't gain vertical height and is a lightweight. They get utterly boned, but they are by no means the top of the tier list.
The lava adds to the whole of the edgeguarding game, because now you may have to fend off multiple recovery attempts, and they can potentially return from under the stage like in Kongo Jungle, but if it isn't banworthy on KJ, it shouldn't be banworthy here.
For people who say "100%+ characters are getting KOed instantly", let me ask you, against a good player, how often is a 100%+ character going to survive after being spiked, unless they have amazing recovery?
I can't see Zebes being overly favourable to any character(unlike say, Yoshi's Island(with the clouds of course), so I feel it warrants being a counterpick.
EDIT: With regards to the proposed GS mods, I think modding the game doesn't serve any purpose and only serves to split what I see to be a rather small community, so even if you ignore the ethical argument of "this is not SSB64", you'll probably split the community).
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
My true beef with zebes is the coverage of the acid. 95% of the stage is rendered useless during some points.
Unlike Hyrules nados, you'd see many situations where the game play is severely changed due to this hazard.
Unlike Hyrules nados, you'd see many situations where the game play is severely changed due to this hazard.
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Remove it entirely, asianaussie. Seriously, simply showing any inclination towards either being pro-mods or anti-mods just pisses people off, and even being completely neutral still starts arguments (like the one beginning now lawl) and is useless anyways.
inb4pointlessfivepage+debate
inb4pointlessfivepage+debate
This post defeats itself.
Destiny Warrior
Smash Apprentice
Quick test of Zebes' lava behaviour:-
The lava's first rise is to just below the stage, where it rocks up and down for a while. Then it falls, or it rocks up to covering the depressed parts of the stage. After this, it falls. The next time it rises, it repeats the above procedure, but after that, it covers the main stage and rocks up and down for a while. After this, it goes down, rocks a bit below the main platform, comes up and covers the main platform again, then rocks below, then finally drops.
The next rise has it cover half of the lowermost platform. After that, it rocks, and it will either cover the whole of the lowermost platform, or fall. After this comes the million dollar question: will it cover the second platform? It seems to not be an overcommon occurrence, because it generally stops with the lower platform. However, it happens, so do not stand over there with false confidence.
Occasionally, the lava does a fake out, that is, it falls quickly and it appears to defy the rough pattern. However, it will stop below the main stage, and and start to go back to where it was again with the rocking etc.
So the lava on Zebes isn't as 'random' as it seems to be, so players can to a certaind egree 'predict' what the lava will do next, and accordingly move to the next safest place ratehr than having to try to 'camp' the uppermost platform. WHen the lava does cover 95% of the stage, it lasts for seconds, and it does a reverse rocking effect like any other fall. This means that you will nver actually get suckered by the lava, it gives pkenty of warning with the earthquakes etc.
Well, this is admittedly no Hyrule nado, but this is a lot more predictable, so gameplay can easily account for this general pattern without too many changes. WHile you're duking it out, keep a corner of your eye out at the lava and the earthquakes, and you'll be able to guess what it'll do next and react accordingly. I hardly think a split second of having just one platform matters too much, especially when all characters can easily stay airborne that long if they don't want to have a King of the Hill game at the top at the cost of having to predict your opponent.
Basically, if you keep track of the lava(not very hard to do), you don't need to adopt different measures to counter it, just rise to the next safe platform and continue the fight. The only real uncompetitive instance is when the top platform becomes a micro-FD, and even that can be avoided without too many issues due to the short duration.
The lava's first rise is to just below the stage, where it rocks up and down for a while. Then it falls, or it rocks up to covering the depressed parts of the stage. After this, it falls. The next time it rises, it repeats the above procedure, but after that, it covers the main stage and rocks up and down for a while. After this, it goes down, rocks a bit below the main platform, comes up and covers the main platform again, then rocks below, then finally drops.
The next rise has it cover half of the lowermost platform. After that, it rocks, and it will either cover the whole of the lowermost platform, or fall. After this comes the million dollar question: will it cover the second platform? It seems to not be an overcommon occurrence, because it generally stops with the lower platform. However, it happens, so do not stand over there with false confidence.
Occasionally, the lava does a fake out, that is, it falls quickly and it appears to defy the rough pattern. However, it will stop below the main stage, and and start to go back to where it was again with the rocking etc.
So the lava on Zebes isn't as 'random' as it seems to be, so players can to a certaind egree 'predict' what the lava will do next, and accordingly move to the next safest place ratehr than having to try to 'camp' the uppermost platform. WHen the lava does cover 95% of the stage, it lasts for seconds, and it does a reverse rocking effect like any other fall. This means that you will nver actually get suckered by the lava, it gives pkenty of warning with the earthquakes etc.
Well, this is admittedly no Hyrule nado, but this is a lot more predictable, so gameplay can easily account for this general pattern without too many changes. WHile you're duking it out, keep a corner of your eye out at the lava and the earthquakes, and you'll be able to guess what it'll do next and react accordingly. I hardly think a split second of having just one platform matters too much, especially when all characters can easily stay airborne that long if they don't want to have a King of the Hill game at the top at the cost of having to predict your opponent.
Basically, if you keep track of the lava(not very hard to do), you don't need to adopt different measures to counter it, just rise to the next safe platform and continue the fight. The only real uncompetitive instance is when the top platform becomes a micro-FD, and even that can be avoided without too many issues due to the short duration.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
I'm not going to remove it just because some people got into an argument over it. That's just dumb. The ruleset isn't here to spread love, it's to give a reasonably comprehensive outline of tournament procedure. If you have a problem, then talk to your local TO, or better yet, become your local TO. That aside, would somebody really refuse to play on Hyrule in-tourney because there's no tornado? Do you really want to keep your purist beliefs and sacrifice the act of actually playing the game?
The ruleset does not in any way suggest a hazard-less stage as the standard, nor will it, because it's just a guideline if anything. If the community starts hating each other something as meaningless as this, that's pretty pathetic.
The ruleset does not in any way suggest a hazard-less stage as the standard, nor will it, because it's just a guideline if anything. If the community starts hating each other something as meaningless as this, that's pretty pathetic.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
How about you remove it because it shouldn't have made it there in the first place?
This is just your opinion on the matter that you are saying is correct...as far as i am concerned you sacrifice the act of actually playing when this happens so, it's unavoidable.
At this rate we shouldn't have even bothered with a rule list lol.
Why does everyone always have to hate and be afraid
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Why does everyone always have to hate and be afraid? This is the internet, anyone who steps up with an opinion is immediately pulled down by people who don't agree.
It's gone. Banished. I'm still not going to discourage use of Gameshark stages.
It's gone. Banished. I'm still not going to discourage use of Gameshark stages.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Your concept of what the main issue is is wrong. Allowing no tornado/no wind is a slippery slope because it opens the doors to other hacks. There are many hacks that you can argue make the game more "competitive," so where do you draw the line? Simply put, there's no good way to do that.
Also removing tornadoes benefits some characters more than others. That fact alone makes it ridiculous to even consider allowing this.
I fail to see how it's a slippery slope. There's no addition of characters or anything; it would simply be removing straight random chance from the equation. If anything, you're running into the slippery slope fallacy. Very simply, the line could be drawn at anything that does not add external content. Removing tornadoes or adding FD wouldn't invalidate this, since tornadoes would simply be removing an aspect of play (much like banning a character or turning off items), and FD is already present on the cartridge, albeit hidden. This would be less of a change than turning off items is. With items on, controlling the stage (rather than simple positioning) is an important aspect of play, since accounting for such randomness requires a vastly different mindset. It also has an incredibly greater disparity between characters in terms of effectiveness. Falcon could get a better approach to his combos, along with his increased ability to get to items. Link, on the other hand, already has projectiles, so adding another one has diminishing returns. You're begging the question by saying that tornadoes are good, since you fail to address how they affect different characters in different ways.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Yeah so what? You're not making any point when you just say "you're talking about a mod". What I want is your explanation for why that's bad.
Why are they different? If you could select these stages without gameshark that would be ok right?
random events are not what make the game. at all.
With competitive PLAY that's what you do. With competitive DESIGN that's not what you do. I could quote this as an argument for why we should use items.
The lava coming up gets ridiculous amounts of kills. That's pretty much the reason. It isn't random but it's not much fun to be repeatedly killed by the lava.
Where do you draw the line? At whatever can be implemented, as I said before. Remember it's extremely common for people to play mods competitively in PC gaming - e.g. CounterStrike. This is because it's easy to implement mods on PC.
Removing items benefits some characters more than others.
Sorry, but removing stage hazards to make up for the player's noobness is not a good excuse. Seriously. The tornado in Hyrule is pretty easy to detect when it spawns. As for the wind blowing, that's just being finicky at best.
It gets into a slippery slope because you can't just turn on FD and hope for the best. The stage is a bit small, blastzones are a bit odd and the ledges are weird. So where do you draw the line on where to change the blast zones and other variables? That's where it gets into a slippery slope. These are game changing variables and quite frankly, you guys aren't looking at the big picture here. If people want to add GS stages into the game, then they need to make changes so that they are viable in competitive play.
I'm all for hacking that does not change gameplay, though.
Not if they're bad like they are right now.
But they add to the game, though.
Well, no, because the game lets you turn off the items aka competitive DESIGN. The game doesn't let you turn off tornadoes, rising lava, or the wind blowing.
Well, what are we talking about here? Are we talking about in a competitive setting or a casual setting? It's true the CS has a lot of mods but if you look closely, a lot of them are very gimmicky and are just for fun. There's so many mods out there such as mods that "balance" the game (with differing levels in 'balancing') and it just gets so unorganized. Also, let's not forget about the endless amount of aimbots and other cheating mods
Let's take a look at how many Brawl mods there are.
- Project M
- Troll Brawl
- Brawl-
- Brawl+
- Balanced Brawl
- SSSB "Overdrive"
- Super Smash Bros. Turbo
- Super Moon Brawl
- Unstoppbrawl
- Fixed Brawl
- Brawl 64
Well, ****. Which one do I play? Brawl+ has stuff that I like but Brawl- as well.
Also, I don't want to play this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJUh1Z72Ko4
If there were to be hacking in 64, it needs to be very centralized and it's something that everybody agrees on. Otherwise, it just becomes a bunch of mods that some people use but others may not. That's where sticking to what we have becomes ideal.