The Next Brawl+ Version

[CT Chia]

Rumor is that it's going to be made after my tourney in a few weeks. Is this true? We seriously need to keep a solid set for a while (6 months+). The meta game will change even without modifying the game. If we continue to keep changing it there will never be any time to completely learn the builds.

We need time to watch mains of all characters flourish. Character strategies to develop. Matchups to be discussed, etc.

Such a soon release will turn off a lot of people.

Possibly fix some major glitches, and maybe some things that flat out proved to be bad in the last build (only with proof though). A lot of people seem to be quite content with this build, and it needs to stick for a while.

 

[leafgreen386]

More like... we know there are problems with this set and we should fix them >_>

It's not like how things were before, when we were changing half the cast constantly. We know what we need to change now, and we're only changing what needs to change, not stuff just because we can.

 

[Shell]

This will be more like the minor update (5.2? / RC2?) I wanted a while back. Minor fixes to Ness / Falcon / Wolf etc., fix bugs. Small balance tweaks, nothing more, no new moves or strategies -- something you could adjust to after less than 15 minutes of playing.

I think we've gathered enough data to warrant that.

 

[GHNeko]

Where have you heard these rumors lol.

 

[goodoldganon]

If we release any build after (or even before) BtL2 it should be the ledgeteching code and possibly the no random footstools. Ledgeteching for sure at least. Still not sold on character changes.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The amount of old and unsound changes in the game right now that we haven't weeded out yet due to their irrelevancy "turns more people off" than the release of a new build. You can't honestly believe that the build right now isn't anything short of a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

We are *not* in a state where we can afford sets to linger for 6 months. Hell, the last build alone had so many experimental changes that we should never have come close to calling things "Release Candidates." We're still in a beta stage.

 

[GHNeko]

More or less Alpha. But lol.

 

[JCaesar]

/agrees with Ryoko completely. Calling the current set a "Release Candidate" was a sad sad joke.

 

[CT Chia]

agreed then

i would still wait till after btl2 though. use the data from that to help as well. even if it fixes a stupid thing, if ppl have been practicing that character its sort of lame

 

[leafgreen386]

The amount of old and unsound changes in the game right now that we haven't weeded out yet due to their irrelevancy "turns more people off" than the release of a new build. You can't honestly believe that the build right now isn't anything short of a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

We are *not* in a state where we can afford sets to linger for 6 months. Hell, the last build alone had so many experimental changes that we should never have come close to calling things "Release Candidates." We're still in a beta stage.

/agrees with Ryoko completely. Calling the current set a "Release Candidate" was a sad sad joke.

This. This so much.

Really, our BR builds are technically pre-alpha, and the public "betas" are much closer to actually being alphas. You could say that the "RC1" set was our first true "beta" release, but even that isn't really true.

Rename set to 5.1 upon release of patch? y/vy

 

[GHNeko]

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Veril]

Yes! We still should wait till after BtL2.

Also, the changes aren't exactly drastic or game changing. Mostly we just need to tone down some super-excessive buffing and fix some major glitches.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

agreed then

i would still wait till after btl2 though. use the data from that to help as well. even if it fixes a stupid thing, if ppl have been practicing that character its sort of lame

Do you really think people would be somehow more turned off by that than tournaments being dominated by ******** things causing a more profound ripple effect?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Do you really think people would be somehow more turned off by that than tournaments being dominated by ******** things causing a more profound ripple effect?

Normally I would agree with this, HOWEVER, like Chibo stated, players have been practicing their mains for this large scale Brawl+ tournament(Beyond the Limit 2) and it would be unfair to the players to change ANYTHING right before the tournament, atleast in my opinion.

Also, I'm back and here to stay =3

 

[RyokoYaksa]

3 weeks is plenty of time, and we've been telling people repeatedly that a "patch" has been in the works. We only make it harder by holding out on it.

Face it, we ****ed up.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

3 weeks is plenty of time, and we've been telling people repeatedly that a "patch" has been in the works. We only make it harder by holding out on it.

Face it, we ****ed up.

Can you please tell me exactly what would be changed in this "patch", because if its very very minor and helps the game without changing the gameplay much at all I'll support it.

and it would be unfair to the players to change ANYTHING right before the tournament, atleast in my opinion.

I will take this back based on what is changed in this "patch" if it's very minor.

 

[shanus]

I'm under the opinion that its meant to:

Fix Samus self-linking jab which can self combo like 20 times.

Fix Samus / Zamus can't load at the same time bug.

Fix Yoshi infinite float glitch.

Fix Ness fair to be significantly less broken.

Fix Wolf nair refreshable hitbox bug.

Fix wolf upB grounded super stun bug.

Make falcon a little less broken (i forget thechange)


I think thats just about everything, mostly bug fixes.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I'm under the opinion that its meant to:

Fix Samus self-linking jab which can self combo like 20 times.

Fix Samus / Zamus can't load at the same time bug.

Fix Yoshi infinite float glitch.

Fix Ness fair to be significantly less broken.

Fix Wolf nair refreshable hitbox bug.

Fix wolf upB grounded super stun bug.

I think thats just about everything, mostly bug fixes.

I support these changes if they need to be done before BtL2

Make falcon a little less broken (i forget thechange)

I'm pretty sure Falcon is no where near Fox status at the moment and I do not agree to changing him. UNLESS its like some sort of bug, or infinite BS, or anything that makes the match unplayable.

 

[GHNeko]

Falcon Bair combos into Up B, yo. That's mad wack.

 

[JCaesar]

Dash attack to knee is more whack.

The problem here is, we know Falcon was overbuffed, but even in his overbuffed state, he's not the best character, so what's the point of fixing him if we're not gonna fix Fox, Squirtle, etc? But then we're probably going too far for a pre-BtL2 patch (well, I personally wouldn't be against it, but I know a lot of other people would whine). So we're back to square one. All we can do for now is fix the stupid stuff like Ness's fair.

 

[GHNeko]

Just because a character is good, doesnt warrent allowing them to keep something dumb.

If something dumb needs to be removed from a mid/low/bottom tier, and possibly high in certain cases. Simply compensate in some way so they dont drop overall.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The thing about CF is that he got a lot of "shinies" that either don't address actual issues with him, or in the case of Bair or Nair, create some one-move wonders.

 

[JCaesar]

Just because a character is good, doesnt warrent allowing them to keep something dumb.

I don't disagree. I'm just saying that other top tiers also have stuff just as dumb which helps make them so good. Why should we remove Ness's and Falcon's dumb stuff and leave things like Squirtle's uthrow->uair or Fox's 3% lasers? But then if we do remove dumb stuff from all the top tiers to balance them, that would end up being quite a few changes, and people are gonna ***** about their characters being changed right before the tournament in a supposedly stable set.

I personally say screw em all, balance is more important than stability, but I know I'm in the minority here, so it's whatever...

 

[Veril]

Why should we remove Ness's and Falcon's dumb stuff and leave things like Squirtle's uthrow->uair or Fox's 3% lasers.

If this "dumb stuff" is the result of changes we've made, than it should go. Again... not before BtL2 imo, but Ness's fair is our fault. Buffs to a move that was already good "facepalm". Falcon's nair and bair buffs just got given to him cause... I don't even know, cause people really like Falcon. Those should go, dash-attack to knee wasn't exactly our doing, its silly but I'm not convinced it's a big issue.

I agree with all of Shanus's proposed changes except "make falcon less broken" since he isn't really broken. We did buff him past the point of acceptable goodness however, and those arbitrary buffs should be removed.

 

[goodoldganon]

N-air gives Falcon an approach and should be one of the changes Falcon is balanced around. Have any Falcon mains seriously fought someone who wanted to do nothing else but camp Falcon? The N-air is the only move he has that can break a defense and even then it's hardly amazing at it.

Unless we were to redesign the defensive options in this game Falcon has to be left as a balls to the wall, non stop, gung-ho action character. He gets punished stupidly hard and he has tons of problems breaking defense. I'm not saying all of Falcon's current changes are needed, or even justified but N-air is one that I think needs to stay.

On another note if we wanted to remove 'stupid ****' from this set we should make sure we have PACs by November 1st. Any later would be too late to add changes before a big tournament.

 

[GHNeko]

Falcon's Bair needs that angle change and the nair's frame data is alright. His combo potential is fine as is. The only thing he could possibly warrent atm is a damage output reduction + Bair change.

 

[Veril]

Seeing as how nearly every character has some insanely good combo against Falcon, I don't think his damage output needs a nerf. GoG had a good explanation for Falcon's nair buff, but the bair buff isn't justified in any way. Ness's fair buffs are also pretty stupid, I think most of us agree those have to go.

Did the pikman ghosting issue ever get fixed? If not, add that to the list.

 

[shanus]

Pikmin ghosting is not understood at all tho

 

[Blank Mauser]

Only problem I see with Bair is that its already one of his few good moves alone even without combo potential, so it is a bit excessive.

I really don't find Falcon's combo ability silly since he takes abuse from others just as much if not more sometimes.

 

[Veril]

Buffing a move without any reason is dumb. Bair was fine without it. Falcon has amazing combo potential regardless. All his other aerials can either combo or KNEE! Falcon, without the bair buff, had reached an acceptable level of goodness.

It would be like, well, Bowser's b and f throws can KO, but his d-throw can't. Lets make it KO really well. Why? Just cause...

 

[CT Chia]

im surprised ppl r complaining about things like falcon bair to upB but not half the crap fox has

if there is a pre btl2 patch plz only include the things shanus put. no balancing things yet

 

[Foxy]

I believe in order to not shake things up too much, keep this build (maybe with a bug-fix patch) until BtL2, but keep in mind the balancing want to do; then, use the results and impressions from BtL2 to confirm what changes should be made.

That's probably the safest and softest way to send out the next patch.