The New Tier List

[asianaussie]

it'll come out when it comes out

Spoiler

we're gonna have to assassinate you for leaking information

 

[ballin4life]

whoops what I meant to say was backroom is still debating the epic team tier list. We're currently deciding whether Ness/Jiggs is better than Link/Link in C tier

 

[asianaussie]

i guess you can let people know samus > yoshi in teams

 

[The Star King]

Lol @ you people letting ballin do whatever he wants

And Yoshi is not better than Samus in teams. Was my 20 page essay seriously not enough to convince you?

 

[Sangoku]

Isn't it what asianaussie said?

Who needs teirs don exits anyway?

 

[ciaza]

Must've been a pretty **** essay.

SOMEBODY STOP ME.

 

[Olikus]

Oh, the backroom is discussing something? I though it dissapeared since they hasnt posted anything in years lol.

And if the new tier list is based on counting up votes from personal list then....well......LOL

Thats beyond hillarious.

 

[ballin4life]

Oh, the backroom is discussing something? I though it dissapeared since they hasnt posted anything in years lol.

And if the new tier list is based on counting up votes from personal list then....well......LOL

Thats beyond hillarious.

Uh, that's pretty much the only way to do it ...

 

[The Star King]

I meant Samus is not better than Yoshi. Shoot me now.

@ballin you can use match-up chart values

EDIT: O wait, those would be based on the personal opinions of the backroom members so it wouldn't matter anyways

 

[Olikus]

Uh, that's pretty much the only way to do it ...

what about no. MU chart and discussion is the way to go. 10 guys just say i think that char is over that and summon up votes. I mean you can do it but its not very accurate to use as The one and only tier list.

 

[Sempiternity]

I'm quite curious how a new tier list would look. All I can think of is some minor rearranging of the lower tiers, but as the list stands now, it's been tried and true and holds up pretty well. I can't really think of much to change.

Except Samus needs to be at least 7 spots higher.

 

[ballin4life]

what about no. MU chart and discussion is the way to go. 10 guys just say i think that char is over that and summon up votes. I mean you can do it but its not very accurate to use as The one and only tier list.

Presumably people are taking matchups into account, right? Also for a tier list you don't necessarily have a good way of weighting the importance of matchups. For tournament play the Pika matchup is going to be much more important than the Samus matchup. I don't think the original weighting system used in the matchup chart thread makes sense.

I'm quite curious how a new tier list would look. All I can think of is some minor rearranging of the lower tiers, but as the list stands now, it's been tried and true and holds up pretty well. I can't really think of much to change.

Except Samus needs to be at least 7 spots higher.

There's a very obvious problem with the S tier given by this tier list.

 

[Olikus]

Presumably people are taking matchups into account, right? Also for a tier list you don't necessarily have a good way of weighting the importance of matchups. For tournament play the Pika matchup is going to be much more important than the Samus matchup. I don't think the original weighting system used in the matchup chart thread makes sense.

Well the weithing system could be discussed. But its still more accurate than a handfull of people writhing their own list. Through discussion and MU chart you can easily get a new look on stuff no matter how much you know about the game.

But the worst part is the one with the most votes win. So no matter how bad the suggestion is, its a possibilty that it can be choosen as long as it gets most votes? Im not acusing BR members to have a horrible suggestion but cmon. The best discussion should allways win over plural statements like "his best imo."

 

[asianaussie]

wait till the list comes out, then make whatever criticisms you want about accuracy or w/e

some rather...interesting opinions came to light, but the list turned out rather well imo

 

[ballin4life]

Well the weithing system could be discussed. But its still more accurate than a handfull of people writhing their own list. Through discussion and MU chart you can easily get a new look on stuff no matter how much you know about the game.

But the worst part is the one with the most votes win. So no matter how bad the suggestion is, its a possibilty that it can be choosen as long as it gets most votes? Im not acusing BR members to have a horrible suggestion but cmon. The best discussion should allways win over plural statements like "his best imo."

How do you objectively choose the best discussion though?

Also if it wasn't clear, you take the individual lists and tally up points for each character based on the average ranking.

 

[Olikus]

wait till the list comes out, then make whatever criticisms you want about accuracy or w/e

some rather...interesting opinions came to light, but the list turned out rather well imo

Im not critisizing the list. (at least not yet). Im critisizing the way its looks like its been made. I dont think its gonna be bad, if it was that would suprise me allot.

Lets make an example. Say falcon vs mario. Really close in the tier list. It would been best to go throug all the MU on all the stages to get who should been highest.

 

[The Star King]

Everybody knows by now that Kirby is better than Fox. And Puff is better than Ness.

Olikus, you are for some strange reason assuming that people didn't take match-ups into account when they submitted their lists, which is silly

Simply lol @ "the worst part is the one with the most votes wins"

P.S. Falcon is better than Mario without a shadow of a doubt

 

[asianaussie]

im starting to think we should actually do a doubles tier list for lols

 

[The Star King]

Trying to imply we aren't doing one to cover up ballin's leaks? You are a clever one, asianaussie.

 

[asianaussie]

ill admit i laughed out loud at that

 

[Battlecow]

Everybody knows by now that Kirby is better than Fox. And Puff is better than Ness.

Yes and yes

I still hate the **** out of the BR, but this list sounds good (not that we wouldn't have come to the same consensus with an open discussion).

 

[Olikus]

Simply lol @ "the worst part is the one with the most votes wins"

So if most players says samus uptilt is better than kirbys uptilt thats a fact?

I think you get a simply lol right back at yourself.

 

[The Star King]

Nobody would say ridiculous things like that, especially in the BR

But the lol was more because what you want doesn't fix your complaint. With your logic, what you want is also a flawed system because everybody can say on the match-up chart that Samus wins every match-up. There is no objective way to create a match-up chart without a lot of tournament data or anything.

 

[Olikus]

Nobody would say ridiculous things like that, especially in the BR

But the lol was more because what you want doesn't fix your complaint. With your logic, what you want is also a flawed system because everybody can say on the match-up chart that Samus wins every match-up. There is no objective way to create a match-up chart without a lot of tournament data or anything.

Im not saying a MU is 100 peprcent correct. If thats what you believe is my opinion. Im just saying as allso ciaza said. Its still better than 10 peolpe throwing out a list. I dont need to tell you detailed whos the most accurate solution, no matter how good players the BR may be.

And it suprise me that you is the one defending the BR soultion most, knowing how much you discuss on other stuff on this forum.

Discussion>one persons opinion.

 

[Battlecow]

He's not saying that the list shouldn't be based on opinion. He's saying it should be based on a greater selection of opinions. I don't think he's wrong, either

Although this list is exactly what I would have put out, so I'm cool with it.

 

[Olikus]

He's not saying that the list shouldn't be based on opinion. He's saying it should be based on a greater selection of opinions. I don't think he's wrong, either

Although this list is exactly what I would have put out, so I'm cool with it.

I liked allot with it as well. But who knows, I would might change my mind about a placement if it was a really MU with stages discussion. And Im sure the BR members would do it as well.

Therefor this is not more than a vague solution no matter how right it actually might be.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't understand this imaginary idea of 'discussion' about matchup charts or tier lists. Not once have I ever witnessed a player change their mind from their initial opinion. In the end, either

1) The two extremes are averaged in a so called compromise that no one agrees with, or

2) one of the extremes is decided to be correct by whoever is running the MU chart thread.

Either way the discussion adds nothing to the process in my perhaps brief experience, and just slows down the produciton of said list. Though yea a MU chart is more accurate than a tier list. Someone might rank luigi ahead of link, but then when their matchup chart is analyzed they find that they actually rank link ahead of luigi when all matchups are considered.

Compile all the public forum matchup charts for the ultimate tier list!

 

[Olikus]

I don't understand this imaginary idea of 'discussion' about matchup charts or tier lists. Not once have I ever witnessed a player change their mind from their initial opinion. In the end, either

People can change their mind if theyr not 100 percent sure on something if someone convince them too, what are you talking about? If a person never change their opinion even though he get outdebated, then he is stubborn and a bad discusser. Nothing to do about those guys.

1) The two extremes are averaged in a so called compromise that no one agrees with, or

2) one of the extremes is decided to be correct by whoever is running the MU chart thread.

Either way the discussion adds nothing to the process in my perhaps brief experience, and just slows down the produciton of said list. Though yea a MU chart is more accurate than a tier list. Someone might rank luigi ahead of link, but then when their matchup chart is analyzed they find that they actually rank link ahead of luigi when all matchups are considered.

Compile all the public forum matchup charts for the ultimate tier list!

Discussion is rarely two extremes because most people here knows allot about the game and therefor have similar view on many ocasion. Its often minor disagreements like +1 or +2. Which can be settle down without going crazy.

And if people disagree strongly then we need the discussion rather than okay, lets just choose the middle one or count up votes. -______-

Adding MU chart is a good thing though. I give you a clap for that.

 

[clubbadubba]

You are absolutely right, when people get out debated they should change their mind. But in almost every case in these lists, the loser of the debate is never clear. Maybe if we had some objective criteria, but we really don't, so good arguments can be made for a number of controversial matchups.

I didn't mean extremes as in OMG off the charts. I meant the two ends of the spectrum, whether they be EXTREME or +1 to +2. There has been a number of times a +1 and a +3 group, and both just say "i guess I'm fine with +2, since this argument is getting silly," which isn't really a great end result. I agree that objective discussion would be great, but that doesn't exist here. Just out of curiosity because I've never seen it, when has someone changed their actual opinion on a matchup as a result of a forum discussion.

 

[asianaussie]

in the case of mass discussion, who decides the 'victor' in debates?

last time it was icy, and i remember a lot of people objecting to some of his declarations

discussion methods and the method the BR used are equally invalid in comparison to actual tournament data, like star king said

 

[The Star King]

Im not saying a MU is 100 peprcent correct. If thats what you believe is my opinion. Im just saying as allso ciaza said. Its still better than 10 peolpe throwing out a list. I dont need to tell you detailed whos the most accurate solution, no matter how good players the BR may be.

And it suprise me that you is the one defending the BR soultion most, knowing how much you discuss on other stuff on this forum.

Discussion>one persons opinion.

OK, then you should have said this that this is a bad way to do it because of lack of discussion from the beginning. I actually agree with you lol. I didn't agree with you saying that this is a bad way beause it's based on personal opinion orsomething

Eh, clubba. I think you're partly right, and I see where you're coming from, but in the end I don't really agree. For me personally, whether I'll be convinced or not depends on how sure I am and how much evidence is against me. For example, I'm not sure about Fox vs Ness because sometimes it feels like a completely horrible match-up to me, and sometimes it feels just kind of bad. So if someone like Peek, who knows what he's talking about in this situation, was like "Fox completely wrecks Ness" I would be like "OK whatever" and move on. But even if it's a match-up I'm fairly sure about, like Luigi vs Puff, I can still be convinced if I get like 4 stocked by an A tier's Luigi, or if I lose to a low B tier Luigi or something. But since the only evidence is me literally never losing as Puff, let alone getting destroyed (except against malva but who cares), and Battlecow, someone who seems to play no Luigi and only a little Puff, is the only one arguing against me, then yeah, you won't see any revisions in my opinion.

Basically, I think I'm somewhat open to being convinced. Although, I have to admit it's really unlikely I'll be convinced by somebody a lot worse than me. But if I had participated in MU discussion when I was like B tier, then I would be very open to my mind being changed. Not sure how stubborn other people are, though.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yo Star King, remember how A$ said luigi vs puff was literally the only MU that was maybe 50-50 between him and boom? That's pretty convincing ain't it?

I really wish people would change their minds, but it just doesn't happen much no matter how much people say they are open to it. Also like aa said, in the case when no one changes their mind, there is no good authority to make a decision. We need an impartial judge.

 

[ciaza]

Shotgun impartial judge.

 

[The Star King]

Nah. Boomfan clearly sucks at the match-up

I'd like to see how well I'd do vs A$'s Luigi

I should be the TOTALLY IMPARTIAL judge

 

[Olikus]

I think SK could be a good judge. Ill vote for him.

 

[The Star King]

Seriously bro? Joking aside, I would be horrible.

I think it's good when it's someone who doesn't know what he's talking about such as t3h_icy (and knows it), because bias doesn't get in the way. My opinions are too strong to be a good impartial judge.

 

[DMoogle]

Yo Star King, remember how A$ said luigi vs puff was literally the only MU that was maybe 50-50 between him and boom? That's pretty convincing ain't it?

Actually I said I think I have an edge in that matchup.

Well, I know not to use Luigi vs. Star King's Falcon, that's for sure. Worst match ever.

 

[TWF Sun Wukong]

The New Tier List
After a little over two months of debating Match-Ups, the Smash 64 Community have come up with the new and improved official Tier List. All of that can be found in this topic.

S Tier
(1)Pikachu
(2)Fox

A Tier
(3)Kirby
(4)Falcon
(5)Mario

B Tier
(6)Yoshi
(7)DK
(8)Ness
(9)Jigglypuff

C Tier
(10)Luigi
(11)Link
(12)Samus


i totally agree with it, other than me wishing that Luigi was at least B-Tier.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^
The main reason why Luigi isn't that good is due to his bad short hop (similar to Samus in many ways.) Luigi due to that has bad shield pressure. Luigi's aerials are moderately easy to Smash DI as well so Luigi gets predictable at higher play.

 

[Battlecow]

Koro, don't say stuff like that. You sound like Smashwiki. It's all wrong.

Seriously, bad shield pressure? This ain't melee, and weegee shieldbreaks like a mofo, prolly 4th best in game or something. Smash DI'ing his aerials? I mean, his drill is a drill, but other than that, nothing he has is particularly easy to DI (and since when do we say "Smash DI"?).

Weegee's bad partly because he has a hard time approaching and stuff due in part to poor aerial mobility...

Eh just play good people and you'll see why he's bad soon enough. It's too complicated to explain in a couple sentences, I feel like.