The new Roy Strategem discussion

[Jihnsius]

I don't think any of his aerials are a safe approach if she's on the floor. I might be mistaken but for some reason I'm thinking Flare Blade will knock her down if she's CCing after a certain percent?

 

[abit_rusty]

yeah but your cactuar. how would the up smash be applied against a good peach?
another thing that should be mentioned is not to dtilt against peach. CC is a death wish.

You apply it when it's appropriate. I'm sure it goes without saying that there's no reliable setups for Roy going into usmash, heck he doesn't really have any "reliable" setups at all against practiced DI. You simply can't discredit a move if it's rarely usable. I read all these things where certain moves are a sin to use, and while I agree with some, the key to playing roy is to be unconventional and if that means using an uncommon tactic or move, then so be it. It doesn't mean spam, it means use wisely.

 

[ArcNatural]

The main semi-consistent combo to get upsmash to work is upthrow -> FJ (or jump immediate dbj) upair to upsmash l-canceling on the platform above you. The reason this typically works is if they miss the DI on the throw most usually try to tech rather than plan on di-ing the upair sometimes. Works with Marth or Roy really. Other than that I think a lot of them are spur of the moment ones.

 

[ChivalRuse]

With bad DI, dtilt > running JC'ed upsmash works, but I'm not sure of the percent, and it would be difficult to sweetspot. Against Peach, I wouldn't be surprised either if she could nair you out of it during the startup of the upsmash.

Also, as Lunar already brought up, dtilt is already a pain to set up due to your inability to CC into it.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i think this is one of them dead end matchups that roy has. peach can outprioritize almost all, if not all, of roy's approaches and so called combos.

what about grab combos/setups? maybe d or b throw to a well spaced bair? is it too risky?

 

[ChivalRuse]

i think this is one of them dead end matchups that roy has. peach can outprioritize almost all, if not all, of roy's approaches and so called combos.

what about grab combos/setups? maybe d or b throw to a well spaced bair? is it too risky?

A pseudo combo/good setup on Peach is fthrow > run forward > DED.

It not guaranteed but at low percents it's an acceptable way to rack up damage if used in moderation.

 

[Sethlon]

how would the up smash be applied against a good peach?

Whenever peach is on a platform. Upsmash will never lose to her dsmash, since its disjointed.
Other than that I probly wouldn't ever upsmash against peach.

what about grab combos/setups? maybe d or b throw to a well spaced bair? is it too risky?

Dthrow -> DED spike can steal a quick stock sometimes. Throw in an fsmash every once in a while to make them scared of DI'ing away.
At high percent you can dthrow -> bair if they don't DI away.

Upthrow will kill peach at 165% on pokemon stadium

 

[ike_love]

Ok, I don't really see this too much, or hear many people talk about it much for that matter. But it's a legit move. Actually, it can sometimes be used as a setup.
SH to 1stDED. That's it. Play with it see what opens up. You can get anything you want out of it. DJ, arial, Waveland. It's basiclly a movement trick. I see a lot of marth players using it, but not so much with roy. But there's one thing to remember... if you use an arial afterward, the next time you DED in the air, you will be sent straight down, which can situationally be useful, but in recovery it sucks not to have that extra boost that you normally get.
Play with it a little and see what you can get from it.

 

[Sukai]

I agree with most of what you said here, with the exception of the part about edgeguarding being something Roy excels in. Compared with low tiers, Roy is one of the best at edgeguarding from onstage. However, this is mainly due to the godly knockback on his fsmash. Aside from this move, he really only has his moderately high knockback DED, his acceptable partially charged neutral b, his shruggable ftilt, his counter in rare situations, and his jab in super rare Marthesque situations.

His lack of a true offstage edgeguarding tool significantly cripples his ability to take advantage of normally punishable recovery angles. Other low tiers have at least one move that is good for offstage edgeguarding: Pika's uair/dair, Kirby's bair/dair, Y.Link's nair, M2's bair, Zelda's fair/bair, GaW's nair/fair, and so on.

They also have reliable onstage edgeguards like Roy: Pika's fsmash/ftilt, Kirby's fsmash, Y.Link's dsmash, M2's dsmash, Zelda's dsmash, GaW's dtilt/fsmash, etc.

By no means am I trying to say that Roy is worse than any of the low tiers. But having a solid offstage edgeguard is just one of those things that really helps a lot when playing against high tiers.

For example, I know that if Y.Link did not have such a godly nair, which feels like it was designed for edgeguarding, I would not even consider playing him at all. So anyway, I guess my point is that offstage edgeguarding can sometimes be a make or break ability to a character. Hint: Notice that most high level smashers are proficient in gimping.

So yeah, I don't really think Roy's edgeguarding is that amazing.

I never meant to include offstage edge guards, just onstage, which is pretty good, but you have a point.
However, because Roy has several hitboxes in his up B, he on the other hand is not (onstage) edge guarded easily, even with Crouch Cancelling, against most characters, they'll fall flat on their ***** trying to CC Blazer, they can't tech and they'll have to get up, Roy's best bet if trying to recover on level with the stage or slightly below it, sweetspotting the ledge is dangerous as it does set up for offstage edge guarding. It's not amazing, but it's viable.

What Chival said, his edgeguard isn't that great. and his recovery is the worst in the game. the difference between his and marth's is that he falls fast so he can't DI even close to as well, and then his up-B is predictable, slow, easy to shield, and even if they don't shield you won't be hitting them very hard. if you don't sweetspott you usually dead, which invites people to easily edgehog you.

Not entirely true, Roy can DI during his recovery, greatly, similar to his reverse Blazer, he can move a great horizontal distance, which makes up for not only his fast falling, but helps during edgeguards. His recovery is in no way worst in the game, just counting his up B, Falcon and Ganon's are way worse, Zelda's is as predictable as they come, and Sheik's is even worse than that, being predictable and goes shorter distance. Luigi's is a joke, I could go on and on about this, even counting stall moves, extra jumps and what not, Roy can still DED stall, double jump and still recover from a safe distance. His recovery (stalls and what not included) isn't "all that great", but I never said it was, it's above average at the most.
And it's certainly better than Marth's, weak, low knockback, single hit, easily CCable and leaves him wide open after the fact, Marth is suspectable to edgeguarding just as much if not more than Roy. Because of Dolphin Slash's strict vertical reach, it fails versus horizontal ranges, which is what he'll need the most against edgeguarding unless it's a spike.

EDIT:
Down air!
I was messing around with Roy's down air, both fullhopped and shorthopped, always fast falling.
Now, the meteor smash isn't the concern, although I've managed to perfect it, but aside from that, I've managed to find a lot of combo potential in it, especially on spacies (and other fast fallers), of course it must be L-cancelled. This move is horribly underrated, it has as much combo ability as forward air and follows up into a down smash at lower percents and a forward smash if they try to DI to the side. It doubles as a decent edge guard too.
I'm gonna start looking further into down air, this move is looking better to me by the minute.
Also, DED air stall mindgame. Thoughts?

 

[Jihnsius]

I've been practicing with the down air a bit and it seems like it might actually have some use. Sweetspotted on the side it gives a good amount of knockback forward up and stuntime. Done out of shield when facing away seems like a viable option since you can't do much else and opens up some combo options. I also find it easier to hit with the horizontal knockback portion of it than anything else.

Also: dtilt jc flare blade all day

 

[ChivalRuse]

Also: dtilt jc flare blade all day

Yes, sir. But if you can, do dtilt jc platform waveland fsmash instead!

Oh, and yea SH dair out of shield is usually the best option when your opponent is behind you.

 

[Sukai]

So, down air is too good, lets find more ways to use it. I experimented mainly on fast fallers, but perhaps we can find something on Floaties, Roy's worst enemies, including but not limited to Marth and Peach.

 

[ike_love]

Also, DED air stall mindgame. Thoughts?

I love it, in fact tried to mention it a couple of posts ago, but no one took the bait. Also keep in mind that one sends you up and one sends you straight down after certain criteria are met, which can also be useful at times. Anyways, you have to "reset" if you want it to send you up. But I don't think anyone else is interested, so that's all I have to say about it.

 

[Sukai]

Go on ike_love, I'm interested.
We can't improve if we stay in the box.

 

[darkoblivion12]

my thoughts on dair:
i like to use it on floaties at low percent, if incorrectly di'd can lead into a grab. have not tested much on fast fallers. i tend to use dair also after a low uair.

my thoughts on DED air stalling:
i usually use it to stall into fair, however it could be more useful. it is a mostly unexplored tactic for me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

my thoughts on DED air stalling:
i usually use it to stall into fair, however it could be more useful. it is a mostly unexplored tactic for me.

And stall into a falling uair > fsmash.

 

[Sukai]

I'm gonna research DED, there are some uses for fourth hits. On fast fallers and floaties. I found that throws can lead to a DED >B >B ^B vB guaranteed on fast fallers.
>B >B ^B ^B
On mid percents (40-60%)
And >B >B ^B Techchase higher on.
Floaties have something too, but fourth hits can be useful, think of the extra damage and early kills Roy can score!

 

[darkoblivion12]

@knux, >>^v is very useful i find, especially since you can get through shields on one of the 4th hits, however this move i find is best used very sparingly, otherwise its predictable.

>>^^ is good because the hitbox is sometimes hard to predict, and can also get through shields, i find a use for it versus the 2 hard match ups (marth/peach)

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like how the first hit of DED is quick enough to lead into the full DED from a launcher and so forth. As knux said, throws can set this up nicely. But really, Roy's other moves are so slow that I feel DED should really be abused in every possible circumstance (but really only on the ground, so the key is to stay on platforms if you want to have a pseudo air game with the DED). I like to do things like FJ onto a platform with and aerial, l-cancel it, and immediately go into DED. I'll also techchase on platforms with a grab or fsmash.

Cool thing about DED, too, is that you can do it effortlessly out of a dash, so it's a good follow up for fair and nair which launch the opponent forward. You can run up and keep pressuring with DED (sometimes it combos but usually it hits them on the ground). First hit of DED can thunders combo too!

 

[Jihnsius]

More down air discussion. The knockback on it's horizontal hitbox is awesome. Better knockback than forward air and more stun time than any of his other aerials (I think.)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Certainly. Dair has a crapload of hitstun, so it ACTUALLY combos into whatever, unlike most of his other aerials, which for the most part don't have enough stun to truly combo.

EDIT: I'll do some tests and such regarding stun tomorrow. Right now I'm exhausted and need to get to bed.

 

[Sukai]

Messing around with down air, it definitely has a lot of combo potential of fast fallers and normal fallers provided then don't have a sex kick, otherwise, you're better off guarding and punishing. I'm looking into floaties again soon.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm experimenting with fthrow a lot lately (because I freaking love grabbing people with Roy; amazing grab range yeayuhz). Depending on DI, of course, a good number of characters can't jump out of Roy's fthrow (before they hit the ground). Because Roy's fthrow allows you more time to respond - as dthrow is a little laggier - I believe this move is a critical tech chase set up. I'm going to test this out more and see what I come up with.

EDIT: Oh and FYI I'm not going to act like I discovered something new. I know all this stuff is well known. I just love revisiting ideas and working stuff out on my own.

 

[Sukai]

Throw to DED ***** floaties, or at least Marth.
>>^v if they attempt to DI or is too far away.
or
>>^^ if they just stand there and take it.

Also, a well timed >>v edgeguards.

 

[darkoblivion12]

wouldn't you be better off with a fsmash or flame blade ledge guard than >>v?

 

[Sukai]

wouldn't you be better off with a fsmash or flame blade ledge guard than >>v?

They fly too far for that.
If you try for a forward smash, you'd have to chase then, dash cancel, then smash.
And Flare Blade requires a dash, short hop, then B.
Flare Blade and Forward Smash are slow in and of themselves, and to have to maneuver more than a dash to get to them, makes it unreliable and more of a tech chase than a follow up.
DED can be done instantly out of a dash and is considerably faster than the other mentioned attack.

Dash to DED is your fastest and therefore your most assured and best option.

EDIT: IGNORE THAT!
Third down hit of DED has a low and long lasting hitbox and is good for people who try to sweet spot the ledge, it's not a better option per say, but it's an alternative.
And having more options is good in itself.

In related news, Short Hop to off stage Flare Blade works, Roy can still recover and sweetspot the edge.

 

[darkoblivion12]

yes on the flare blade off the edge. I use that quite a bit. works well vs slow recoveries (like interupting samus bomb jumping).

 

[Jihnsius]

And Flare Blade requires a dash, short hop, then B.

Actually, no. I just now figured this out for myself, I don't know if it's common knowledge, but in practicing reverse DED from a run I realized you can neutral B during a run (doesn't work from initial dash) if you release forward and hit B almost immediately. No turning around with it, unfortunately. Hello more accurate edgeguarding.

EDIT: I've also come to realize the fastest way to grab the ledge (aside from a wavedash fastfall) is to run off, fast fall, double jump back, DED towards the ledge. The buttons have to be drummed with two fingers otherwise you'll jump too high. When you use DED more than once without touching the ground you'll lose vertical momentum, been trying to mess around with that for edgehogging but it seems like there's just too much time needed in doing it twice to be useful. Also if you haven't yet used DED in the air and you're on the ledge, you can drop doublejump DED for another sweetspot. It also seems to me that fastfall drop doublejump regrab just might possibly be an infinite invincibility rebuffer.

Also up-air will thunders.

EDIT 2: This is odd. If you DED, grab the ledge, then touch the stage (simple getup or even ledgehop WD) your next aerial DED will send you downwards as if you never touched the ground at all.

EDIT 3:

If you can get Fox into a thunders: DED forward, up, up. The first DED will force a getup, second one misses, third will relaunch during his standing animation, no chance to avoid it. If there's no tech it can be repeated, and can be done for a techchase if he manages to tech. This could probably be put to a little use against a human for a couple repetitions if they miss a tech or you can catch them out of an l-cancel. At the end of the string you can chase for a forward smash or fourth hit of DED if they don't DI away.

I think this only works on Fox, too, otherwise the first hit of DED will bounce them instead of forcing a getup.

You can, however, vary between forward forward up and forward up forward to either move them away from you or hold them in place so that either way they DI you can almost follow them for a 50/50 mixup leading to the launch, which can be followed. It can be finished with a forward or up fourth hit of DED or a smash if you have the time or can techchase accordingly.

 

[Sukai]

Good stuff on the Flare Blade.
Repeated ledge hops always refresh your invincibility, that part is actual common knowledge.

Throw to DED (>>^v) is a low percent combo on Floaties and Norms. Mid percent they can tech before the DED, high percent they fly to far and can double jump afterwards.
>>v is epic, it's useful in a lot of combos.
Down air to forward smash is a combo too. They can only DI up or to the side, if they DI up, then up smash them, if they DI to the side, forward smash or DED. Down smash works on Fast fallers.
Roy's really good on Corneria.
That's about it for now.

 

[Jihnsius]

Repeated ledge hops always refresh your invincibility, that part is actual common knowledge.

Not quite what I was getting at. As soon as you grab the ledge you're given invincibility frames. I always believed Ganon was the only one capable of grabbing, gaining invincibility, dropping, doublejumping, and grabbing it again before that invincibility wore off, making him completely invincible the entire duration as he repeats it infinitely. From what I'm seeing trying it with Roy, there's no moment when he stops flashing from invincibility. I've yet to try it in the lava on Brinstar, but I think Roy just might actually be able to do the same infinite rebuffer ledgestall. Nothing too special, but interesting knowledge I don't think has been touched on.

 

[Ripple]

so guys.... how about some double roy strategy?


cuz......... me and sethlon are teaming for genesis

 

[Pi]

so guys.... how about some double roy strategy?


cuz......... me and sethlon are teaming for genesis

one of you 2v1's the other team whilst your partner charges up a neutral B
then at the last second you throw one or both of the opponents into the 41% flare blade
then you lock down the other opponent in a series of tilts, up and neutral airs, essentially wombo comboing them to death before their partner respawns
then you repeat

 

[Sethlon]

so guys.... how about some double roy strategy?

For 2v1 stuff...

One of us downtilting on either side of the person over and over works pretty well, lol.

At a low percent grab, just fsmashing would be better than charging flare blade. It takes a while for it to charge up to decent damage. Flare blade charge would be great as a finisher tho.

Tip downtilt doesn't pop people out of your partner's grab. I don't think its fast enough/enough stun to infinite, but it along with the other roy's pummeling racks up damage decently fast. And then you get the dtilt set up after they break out. If we want to be super homo, we could do Roy grab -> other roy dtilt once or twice -> ground breakout of grab -> other roy grab -> repeat.

It is possible to reverse upB kill a jiggs out of another chars grasp, but the spacing for it is a pain since you have to jump up to hit her with it. It would be easier to just reverse upB the jiggs after she breaks out onto the ground, but I'm not sure if the ground release is guaranteed.

For 2v2...
Whenever we get a grab and the other roy is behind us, we should be dthrowing to them. Sets up nicely for the other roy's fsmash (or maybe even regrab lol), and then the roy who grabbed can focus on keeping the opposing team's partner from interfering.

We should be looking for grabs -> partner smashes for kills soon as we can.

We should probly try to stick relatively close to each other. We'll probly be getting gimped/overmatched alot so we'll need to watch eachother's backs.


...thats all I can think of. I'm excited, double roy is gonna be fun

 

[Jihnsius]

I wish I could be there. Sethlon, you'd easily be the most interesting of people to meet and play with. <3


EDIT: Do you think there's any more viability in using Roy's counter in a team match since one can protect the other if it doesn't connect?

 

[Sukai]

Probably. But if you do it once, it better count.

I might be going to Genesis, if so, I'd like a few friendlies with you Seth.

 

[Ripple]

if we can counter one anothers attacks to hit an opponent.....*drools*

 

[Sethlon]

I might be going to Genesis, if so, I'd like a few friendlies with you Seth.

Sure thing, just hit me up whenever they've got friendlies going.

if we can counter one anothers attacks to hit an opponent.....*drools*

The hard part about that would be making sure we didn't kill each other with the counter, haha

 

[Jihnsius]

How about double counters against an attack? Heh.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you can get Fox into a thunders: DED forward, up, up. The first DED will force a getup, second one misses, third will relaunch during his standing animation, no chance to avoid it. If there's no tech it can be repeated, and can be done for a techchase if he manages to tech. This could probably be put to a little use against a human for a couple repetitions if they miss a tech or you can catch them out of an l-cancel. At the end of the string you can chase for a forward smash or fourth hit of DED if they don't DI away.

I think this only works on Fox, too, otherwise the first hit of DED will bounce them instead of forcing a getup.

Yea fthrow is a good set up for DED because 1. Fthrow allows you to chase while the opponent is still falling. 2. Because you can DED out of the dash. 3. Many characters can't jump out of the fthrow and must tech. If they miss the tech, some sexy stuff happens, most of which you covered.

When Fox techs, you can usually tech chase. It can be hard when he techs away, especially when he DI'ed the throw away as well. But if you react quickly, usually you can get another grab out of his tech.

Other characters like Ganon who can't jump out of the fthrow will get popped into the air from the first hit of the DED. You can extend this nicely with >>^. The third hit will hit him straight down, so that he lies on the ground again. If he doesn't react quickly, you can thunders combo him with jab. Or, if he rolls you can just follow him and grab again.

 

[Sukai]

Seriously, Roy's down air *****.

It ***** so good, people wish it wouldn't **** so good.
It combos so well into a forward smash or up smash and sets up for a down smash on fast fallers. Just beware of sex kicks.
I love down air.