The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

[Blue Yoshi]

Keep in mind, just because a combo is harder doesn't mean that it is less viable. I mean, obviously, frame perfect combos are not viable, but a fox 0-death combo that is hard to do but still very manageable should be weighted the same as a simpler Falcon 0-death combo that has similar parameters (e.g. situationality, where it can be performed, etc.). Remember, at high level play, that hard Fox combo soon becomes a standard combo. Obviously really hard combos (even at high level play) can be weighted less than easy combos, but if at high level play, the combo is simple, then it should be weighted the same.

A good example is Yoshi's double jump nair combo. Lots of people can't do it, but at high level play, it's standard. So... yeah.

I think I made too big a post for a simple statement lol.

I should probably also pay attention, as I could add stuff as well. Only problem is I don't play on dreamland often (online I almost always play against people who want Hyrule, and offline, although we always go on dreamland, it's not good matchup experience due to the vast skill gap).

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I don't think fox has an advantage vs falcon on DL. Grab is too good for falcon, results in a death for fox very often. Also, falcon's deadly combos are far easier. I'd say it's 45:55 against fox, for DL obviously.

agree on 45:55 for fox, you also are taking out the factor that he can't laser pressure as easily, and he doesn't have the rapetent which is most of foxes combos on hyrule.

however, he has those platforms so continuing aerial combos and/or using them for aerial combos is alot easier.

same goes for falcon too, which help him even more.

also because of being a mario main, when i'm playing a fox on hyrule, i really don't feel i have an advantage much, but i feel i do not have a disadvantage.

I can easily get the standard combos i get on hyrule (minus the rapetent) and i feel it's somewhat easier to gimp for mario on dreamland, and then you have to add what fox DOESN'T have on DL compared to dreamland.

however, i gotta add that teir factor, and whatnot, so i would say...almost the same as fox as falcon, only given a lesser disadvantage.

so i would say like..45:50.

 

[The Star King]

Also, I get the feeling that Star King has got jigglypuff's back for this chart.

Eh, not really. I'm not even that avid of a Puff player or anything lol, and my opinion of her in the tier list is probably LOWER than average (I think she's worse than Ness). It's just that I think she's underrated in a few match-ups, namely Luigi and Fox. I actually think she's OVERRATED in some match-ups; glancing at the chart, a glaring one to me is Falcon, who has the advantage without a doubt IMO.

Spoiler

Probably gonna be hating on Mario, if you want to know my future posts are going to be like.

Keep in mind, just because a combo is harder doesn't mean that it is less viable. I mean, obviously, frame perfect combos are not viable, but a fox 0-death combo that is hard to do but still very manageable should be weighted the same as a simpler Falcon 0-death combo that has similar parameters (e.g. situationality, where it can be performed, etc.). Remember, at high level play, that hard Fox combo soon becomes a standard combo. Obviously really hard combos (even at high level play) can be weighted less than easy combos, but if at high level play, the combo is simple, then it should be weighted the same.

A good example is Yoshi's double jump nair combo. Lots of people can't do it, but at high level play, it's standard. So... yeah.

I think I made too big a post for a simple statement lol.

I see what you're saying, but everybody makes mistakes. High level players may make less, but they're there, and the simpler combos are going to be messed up less. I agree that difficulty of a combo becomes LESS of a factor as you get higher in level of play, but I think that factor still matters a bit.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Spoiler

that's cool star, it's just a character.

besides i might have a biased view of mario so looking forward to it imo.

 

[Battlecow]

Kirby-Fox isn't 60-40 surely? IDK I don't really play kirby or fox

 

[The Star King]

For DL? I would say that's about right.

 

[x After Dawn x]

why do kirby's moves come out so fast =(

 

[The Star King]

Why does his utilt exist =(

 

[SilentSlayers]

Most of his moves are just ridiculous. If only he had faster movements, like air speed, he'd be REALLY REALLY ridiculous.

 

[asianaussie]

Kirby is just really good on Dreamland, people are like 'Dreamland? That's good for Pika/Falcon and awful for Ness/Link'...and they forget Dreamland is Kirby's stomping ground.

 

[The Star King]

Dreamland isn't awful for Ness nub.

I summon Peek!

 

[SilentSlayers]

Dreamland isn't awful for Ness nub.

I summon Peek!

I summon Sima!

 

[asianaussie]

I don't think it is either.

I just feel that's the general vibe from the last matchup thread and stuff

those platforms are amazing for him

 

[x After Dawn x]

kirby with pika's air movement, floatiness and up b = best character in the game?

 

[clubbadubba]

kirby with pika's air movement, floatiness and up b = best character in the game?

kirby with pika's up-b and floatiness, but jiggs air speed and double jump cancel option on every single jump

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't even want to think about that.

...although I do wonder if it would be possible through some massive gameshark code...

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Don't forget Jigglypuff's down-B.

Anyways, we're getting off-topic. Unless we are adding this custom character as the 13th character on the chart, lets get back to the matchup discussion.

 

[t3h Icy]

Kirby 60 Fox
Falcon 55 Fox

Other Fox match-ups?

 

[Peek~]

My general hatred of this matchup says 85-15 vs Ness

For this thread though its 70, it might be 65 since both have grab + edgeguard but in every other area Fox just beats Ness

 

[Olikus]

Luigi can combo very good on the plattforms, has a solid recovery, good grab and can edguard fox easy with his downsmash. I'd say 60-40/65-35 in foxs favor.

Link and samus pretty much gets ***** by fox. 70-30 for fox vs both of them.

mario, yoshi and DK are all pretty even with fox on DL. Would guess something like 50/50 or 55-45 in foxs favor.

 

[DMoogle]

My general hatred of this matchup says 85-15 vs Ness

For this thread though its 70, it might be 65 since both have grab + edgeguard but in every other area Fox just beats Ness

Hmmm, I think I would go 65:35 at maximum, maybe even 60:40. Fox destroys Ness' approach on level playing grounds (I would expect Final Destination to be a nightmare, although I don't recall having tried it yet in this matchup), but the platforms on DL give Ness many viable approach options. I would say DL is a way better place for Ness in this matchup than Hyrule.

As far as edgeguarding goes, they're pretty equal on this stage. If either gets the other off the stage, then they should be dead.

 

[ballin4life]

Luigi can combo very good on the plattforms, has a solid recovery, good grab and can edguard fox easy with his downsmash. I'd say 60-40/65-35 in foxs favor.

Link and samus pretty much gets ***** by fox. 70-30 for fox vs both of them.

mario, yoshi and DK are all pretty even with fox on DL. Would guess something like 50/50 or 55-45 in foxs favor.

DK advantage
Mario double advantage
Yoshi probably slight disadvantage

Samus also isn't as bad vs Fox on DL

 

[Olikus]

You think mario is dobbel advantage? hmmm, I dont play that MU much, but I allways felt foxs moves works so great vs mario. Fox can still pressure mario good on DL. So the biggest boost I see for mario on that stage is his great recovery. Not sure if its enough for dobbel though.

 

[ballin4life]

I feel like Mario is worse for Fox than Pika on DL. Pika is way easier to combo/kill than Mario, and both gimp Fox ridiculously well. Maybe I just suck vs Mario though.

 

[The Star King]

Fox vs. Mario: Even
Fox vs. Donkey Kong: +1
Fox vs. Yoshi: Even (possibly -1? I have a lot of experience in this match-up, but my opinion on it changes a lot)

I think people like to underrate Fox on DL in general.

Yay for lazy posts.

 

[blaze3927]

mario can abuse fox's recovery.
but mario is combo'd like a ..olike a... cant think of anything, too tired.
i reckon fox mario is like mario falcon except fox is shorter and can shine fireballs.
maybe 55-45?

mmaybe we need a scoring grid before we get over technical and try and draw up comparisons again without real control?
i.e. does mario being able to abuse a fox's recovery mean that fox's small hurtbox is worth null?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Luigi can combo very good on the plattforms, has a solid recovery, good grab and can edguard fox easy with his downsmash. I'd say 60-40/65-35 in foxs favor.

Link and samus pretty much gets ***** by fox. 70-30 for fox vs both of them.

mario, yoshi and DK are all pretty even with fox on DL. Would guess something like 50/50 or 55-45 in foxs favor.

I wouldn't say Luigi has a good recovery for this matchup due to it's low-ish priority. It is long but abusable due to fox's b-air and f-air. Luigi isn't bad at edgeguarding fox at all. I don't see how Luigi can get around Fox's priority personally.

its probably 60-40 overall, 65-35 on Hyrule possibly as Fox can run around and laser forever and just wait.

The Samus matchup is worse than the Link one. It is absolutely terrible. I find it to be possibly even the worst matchup in the game along with Pikachu-Samus. I wouldn't call it in the same class as the Link-Fox matchup so I would put the Fox-Link at 65-35 and the Fox-Samus matchup at 70-30.

 

[ballin4life]

Fox can't combo mario for **** ...

 

[Sangoku]

He can combo non-DIing mario with dair =P. But it is irrelevant here as we're talking about high level play.

How about some utilts to fairs? I know you don't like utilt but I'm wondering...

 

[t3h Icy]

Kirby 60 Fox
Falcon 55 Fox
Fox 50 Mario
Fox 55 Yoshi
Fox 65 Ness
Fox 60 Luigi
Fox 70 Samus (75?)

Any thoughts on vs Puff?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

How the hell do you edgeguard Luigi Koro? You should be using downtilt unless he downbs close to the edge.

 

[Battlecow]

I'd stick with a 70 vs da puff

 

[ballin4life]

He can combo non-DIing mario with dair =P. But it is irrelevant here as we're talking about high level play.

How about some utilts to fairs? I know you don't like utilt but I'm wondering...

It works at certain percentages but Mario can get out pretty easily due to being floaty as heck

edit: apparently I got a "spam" warning for the post before this one ... mod misclick?

 

[clubbadubba]

So I was thinking about it, and I started wondering why exactly is the fox v puff matchup considered so much worse than the fox v luigi matchup? I may be wrong (and probably am), but here's the way I see it:

Both luigi and puff have bad approaches vs fox, though I'd give the edge to puff because of her airspeed. Puff combos fox much better than luigi, its basically kill off of a low percentage puff grab. Luigi has a slightly better edgeguard game i suppose, but edgeguarding fox can be done pretty easily by both. As far as recovery goes, I don't see a huge difference. The one thing that's really against puff is how early she dies from usmash or uair.

In short, it seems like puff gets punished more easily by fox, but also punishes fox more easily, so I don't understand why such a large difference between the two matchups would exist. Could someone shine some light on this for me?

 

[t3h Icy]

Could someone shine some light on this for me?

I don't actually know though, lol.

 

[asianaussie]

Shine + edgehog kills Jiggs at ground level after she has used one jump.

U-Smash and U-Air kill Jiggs real early and ignore her good horizontal recovery.

Luigi can combo Fox just as well as Jiggs does when he gets in, and has arguably better edgeguarding.

Fox beats both pretty thoroughly, even without camping.

 

[ciaza]

I agree with all your points except Luigi being able to combo fox as well as jiggs. Fox's small frame can make it incredibly hard for Luigi to get the combo going. Jiggs can hit the grab at 0% however allowing her to hit the combo much much easier.

But then again my Fox is appalling, as is my theory on him so I'm probably wrong.

 

[The Star King]

Luigi can combo Fox just as well as Jiggs does when he gets in, and has arguably better edgeguarding.

No @ both edgeguarding and comboing. In terms of comboing, they both can combo Fox pretty well at medium percentages; the difference is at low percents, at which Luigi's combo game is pretty ****ing limited. Edgeguarding: if Fox is recovering low, both characters should be pretty much able to kill him. Puff is better at edgeguarding when Fox is recovering high because she can float out and hit his start-up animation, while Luigi's terrible aerial mobility doesn't allow him to do the same. If you are in a situation where you can't, Puff is still better at covering options thanks to Luigi's bad speed.

As for my opinion on Fox-Puff compared to Fox-Luigi on DL? IDK, I think they're maybe about the same.

 

[ballin4life]

Puff's approach is about a million times better than Luigi's and Puff combos MUCH better than Luigi off her approaches, especially at low percents when Luigi can't combo Fox at all.

Also shine against Jiggs is mad risky since you have to be ridic close to use it, i.e. within Jiggs's grab range

 

[asianaussie]

My Fox is awful anyway.