The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Convert to +/-? ;;>_>

[Sangoku]

When pika has the right percentage to get spiked he can get back on stage (assuming by spike you meant uair -> second jump -> dair). And I don't think you can be upbing at a dying percentage either.

Did I say Hyrule was better? You give it a 65-35 and I'm fine with it. I just don't think the difference with DL is that big. So why not 60-40?

I just don't find falcon does well against pika at all. Even if he gets some little help in DL he still sucks against pika.

You only play DL and I mostly play Hyrule, so next time we play pick falcon and I'll pick pika so you can prove me I'm wrong .

edit: and even if falcon does quite well in absolute (which I don't even think), I don't think he does better than kirby or mario.

 

[King Funk]

Sorry but I'm still not convinced. All you're saying is "the stage helps falcon with the platforms". While it might be true to some extent I don't find them particularly helpfull against pika as the uairs combo doesn't get really longer anyway. And as I said since you can hardly finished them with upb they're not so usefull as death combos. I play a lot falcon myself but I wouldn't feel safer facing pika on dl than on hyrule. So I'm still in favor of 60-40.

I think you're wrong in believing that platforms only helps Falcon for the combos. You can't think a matchup purely on combos and edgeguarding. The reason Falcon is so amazing on Dreamland and clearly has a 50-50 matchup with Pikachu there is because of the insane amount of pressure he can cause using the platforms. With his fast uair and his usmash that pokes characters on platforms, Falcon neutralizes completely Pikachu's air/above platform game. Once Pikachu is there, he will have huge difficulty landing back onstage. And something I should remind you of is that, unlike Melee and Brawl, there's no way to drop through the platforms from the air (you HAVE to land on them and perform the action of dropping through). And what can Pikachu truly threaten Falcon with if Falcon happens to be the one on/above the platforms? Uair? Bair?

Hyrule sucks for Falcon in this matchup because he can't cause the same type of pressure and Pikachu has far more options and space to get away from pressure underneath.

And I don't know why you think Falcon combos should end with up-b to be efficient. Spiking Pikachu is far better, and even at low-mid%, if you spike that rat and grab the edge, you are almost guaranteed to spike him again and get the kill.

I'd gladly discuss this with you on msn and show applications of what I just wrote here if you want.

 

[Sangoku]

Now here's an argument thanks. Lol I didn't say I was right, but I only heard "DL is too good for falcon" so that wasn't really convincing.

How should end a uair chain (that's what I was talking about, not any combo) then if not an upb? Concerning the spike thing I will have to verify it. Another point I thought I would hear was grab -> pivot -> uair which is efficient too.

50-50 seems still a bit exaggerating but I'd be glad if you could show me one or two tricks on msn next time I play =).

Now how about fox? He's fast and has a lot of moves that pokes characters on platforms (uair, dtilt, utilt), but would you consider he's neutralizing pikachu's aerial game?

 

[King Funk]

Now how about fox? He's fast and has a lot of moves that pokes characters on platforms (uair, dtilt, utilt), but would you consider he's neutralizing pikachu's aerial game?

Nope, because his options not nearly as broken. The hitboxes are not nearly as big and dangerous as uair, he doesn't really have the horizontal and vertical speed to be as threatening, and he can't do as much even if he succeeds in hitting with one of those moves.

And I wasn't only talking about platform poking.

When I say "vertical speed", I mean that Falcon's amazingly fast jumps combined with his uair allows him to reach Pikachu really fast. Hell, he can even punish a single whiffed aerial with double jump uair on REACTION.

Falcon neutralizes almost every single character in the game's aerial game on Dreamland. Of course, it doesn't mean he's the best character on that stage at all. Kirby and Mario give him a hard time there (however Pikachu beats those characters). And btw, Kirby's dropthrough dair can prove to be quite safe sometimes should Kirby be above Falcon.

 

[clubbadubba]

Moving on to fox on dl, I've always felt that kirby has an advantage over fox everywhere, especially on dl. you can't really laser kirby unless he stupidly jumps up into the laser because he's so short, and approaching kirby with anything else runs the risk of getting utilted, which is death for fox. Maybe its just me, but i honestly put it at 60-40 for kirby

 

[Olikus]

Now here's an argument thanks. Lol I didn't say I was right, but I only heard "DL is too good for falcon" so that wasn't really convincing.

Uhm its okay that you disagree with me, but dont say I only said DL is too good for falcon. I made several posts with several arguments. If someone made statements like he is good, it was the others. I at least tried to explain.

So yeah before going on to fox, icy change pika vs falcon back to 55-45.

 

[King Funk]

Uhm its okay that you disagree with me, but dont say I only said DL is too good for falcon. I made several posts with several arguments. If someone made statements like he is good, it was the others. I at least tried to explain.

So yeah before going on to fox, icy change pika vs falcon back to 55-45.

I'd say go for 50-50 even. If you want more in-depth arguments add me on MSN or AIM, Icy.

 

[Sangoku]

Olikus: K, sorry I didn't seem to have read all the posts ^^.

I still don't think this new matchup chart will be that accurate if we don't have more participation from others =/.

 

[Battlecow]

Dreamland IS doug's playground; everyone but ballin' knows it. He gets gimped hardcore, but it's really not hard to 0-death Pika, and Doug's edgeguard game against the rat is actually not terrible; if he's far enough away you can almost always spike him out of the up-B or make him lagland so that you can dash up and get the Bthrow again.

Again, none of that stuff individually proves it; anyone can say "Doug can do this" or "pika can do this" until their face turns blue but actual matchesz are the only proof.

King Funky said good and true stuff, but I still wouldn't give doug the 50-50. throw->gimp is too good for that.

 

[ballin4life]

Dreamland IS doug's playground; everyone but ballin' knows it.

Heh. Well, the main reasoning I've heard for DL being good for Falcon was combos, but I feel like he can combo really well on Hyrule too. If it really makes that big of a difference for approach then I could be wrong.

 

[Battlecow]

"The New Match-Up Chart v2 - Fox on Dreamland"

>.<

We are NOT done with Pika.

 

[SilentSlayers]

Heh. Well, the main reasoning I've heard for DL being good for Falcon was combos, but I feel like he can combo really well on Hyrule too. If it really makes that big of a difference for approach then I could be wrong.

You're right, but remember the fact that combos in Dreamland are not only a lot easier, but a lot more of them lead directly into deaths which can not be prevented (easily). Pretty much a grab anywhere most of time can lead into a dair combo (spike). This is not always true on Hyrule, and even if arguably it is, let's at least agree it's a lot harder, which does matter.

Also since you can't be as campy on DL, it makes it easier for CF to get a gay grab in.

Feels like combos in Hyrule are way more likely to end in a low-% up + b which you can do a decent edgeguard with, but not like they barely make it. And yes, I know a lot of combos in Hyrule can lead to deaths, just not always. It depends a lot more on %'s and locations etc. DI has more effect on Hyrule, except for of course DI'ing in DL to tech on a platform.

 

[Sangoku]

Are there vids for that matchup? I haven't found any.

 

[Olikus]

Are there vids for that matchup? I haven't found any.

OCC tourney jam vs funk. Two matches on DL(they win one each).

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrKingFunk?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/12/ZKX85z9YMC8

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah I meant except that one ^^.

It could be usefull to analyse the matchup.

 

[King Funk]

Yeah I meant except that one ^^.

It could be usefull to analyse the matchup.

I was pretty sloppy in that set tbh. I could have done a lot better to show how even that matchup is. So many screw-ups first round. >_>

 

[t3h Icy]

Guess we have to start over

 

[HellxBound]

So infinite upairs chains don't work so well on pika since he's so light (and has a lolol upb) and if falcon can't upb at the end of it, pika won't die by uairs.

Why pika has to leave platforms? If the falcon is dumb enough to run to upsmash, pika can just run off and bair falcon or whatever.

Platform tech-chase: is falcon really often sending people to the ground anyway? Except from dair which can easily be countered I don't see many moves.

It's seriously really, really easy for a decent falcon to z2d pika on DL with spike OR up-b as the finisher. This is for high level play, so the falcon won't be "dumb enough" to throw out random usmashes.

Platform tech chases are super important, play this MU and I bet the pika will tech on a platform several times. Falcon's uair/usmash owns this: huge hitboxes, easy to techchase if pika rolls to either side, easy to time, if you mistime you'll most likely hit pika's shield and uair gives significant shieldstun to do more uairs.

Now how about fox? He's fast and has a lot of moves that pokes characters on platforms (uair, dtilt, utilt), but would you consider he's neutralizing pikachu's aerial game?

Falcon puts pika under a lot more pressure when he's below pika than fox does. A hell of a lot more shieldstun than Fox's aerials, easier to 'poke' with usmash, if you land a uair you're much more likely to combo pika to oblivion.

I think it's 55:45 pika:falcon and 70:30 pika:fox.

EDIT:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how the rating system works, but a glance at the chart seems to indicate that pika doesn't own any of the cast on DL at all. Eg. 70 vs samus, pika would demolish samus 90%+ of the time, why this weird rating system.

 

[x After Dawn x]

pikachu is 90-10 with samus on dream land? really?

 

[asianaussie]

no, not really

although i daresay pika probably would win that proportion of matches, the match is not as bad as something like marth kirby in melee

 

[ballin4life]

Yay another vote for making the rating system less confusing!

 

[Battlecow]

I suppose I was wrong...

In assuming that everyone had the requisite INTELLECT for understanding this system.

 

[Olikus]

Even if pika most likely will win 90 % of the matches vs samus its not 90-10. Beacuase its not a win ratio system. Its number to use how much advantage a caracther has over another, and how even the MU is.

So 50-50 is even, and 45-55 they both would often come down to the last stock, and both win several matches, but one of them has the little advantage. And the gap gets bigger and bigger each time. I really dont see how this is more vague than stuff like >, >> or +1 or more advante, less advantage and stuff like that. If you put some goodwill into it, and try to understand it shouldnt be hard.

ANd yeah pika.falcon DL is still 55-45. Update it!

 

[ballin4life]

Even if pika most likely will win 90 % of the matches vs samus its not 90-10. Beacuase its not a win ratio system. Its number to use how much advantage a caracther has over another, and how even the MU is.

So 50-50 is even, and 45-55 they both would often come down to the last stock, and both win several matches, but one of them has the little advantage. And the gap gets bigger and bigger each time. I really dont see how this is more vague than stuff like >, >> or +1 or more advante, less advantage and stuff like that. If you put some goodwill into it, and try to understand it shouldnt be hard.

ANd yeah pika.falcon DL is still 55-45. Update it!

My complaint is that it's confusing, not that it's vague.

 

[Battlecow]

It's confusing to people with more GYM-AND-VITAMIN-GROWN muscles than brains

Olikus mains Polygon DK and understands Dylan lyrics; nothing is difficult for him.

 

[Olikus]

My complaint is that it's confusing, not that it's vague.

I can understand that its easy to look at it as a win ratio. I think I thought that first as well. But if you look at it as numbers to describe how even a Mu is, I realy dont see how >, >> and the others is easier. At least for me its less confusing since when you see one has 70 you use easy math to understand that the other has 30. But with stuff like >^5 it looks more confusing imo.

It's confusing to people with more GYM-AND-VITAMIN-GROWN muscles than brains

Olikus mains Polygon DK and understands Dylan lyrics; nothing is difficult for him.

Speaking of the greatest man with the better lyric. Have you seen the documentary "No Direction Home" about his early career? I need to see that asap.

 

[HellxBound]

I get what you're saying, 60:40 in pika's favour (for example) doesn't mean there's a 60% chance he'll win. It should though, because this way says very little about how tipped the MU is. Everyone is going to think of 60:40 differently. It's just like the +- system, sure one + means the character is 'a little bit' better, but that's arbitrary as all hell. It's even worse than the +- system because it's centered around 50 and uses increments of 5, making it easy to misinterpret.

 

[Olikus]

I agree that its basicly the same as the +- system. But it looks much more eyefriendly if you catch my drift. The brawl MU chart uses the same system but a little different.

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Its easy to transfer that over to the numbers. -1 to+1 is 45-55. And it goes up to 4/-4 which is 70-30. And beyond that like fox vs samus hyrule, and pika vs link DL is just ****.

its not to vague to have small advantage, medium advantage etc. Its a matchup its not like it have the exact same outcome every single time its played. Having a more specific method will make it unrealistic as a meassure.

I doubt people have that different views on what is a close match and a **** match. Think of it as stocks. If its 45-55 the matches will most likely end up at the last stock, and both has a fair change of winning.

 

[ballin4life]

We had a newcomer in this very thread get confused thinking they were win ratios. What's wrong with +1/+2/etc?

 

[Olikus]

We had a newcomer in this very thread get confused thinking they were win ratios. What's wrong with +1/+2/etc?

Nothing wrong with +1. I just thinks the system that we have now works/looks better. But Im open for both.

 

[clubbadubba]

It seems like the intuition of anyone seeing the current rating system for the first time assumes that the numbers represent match-up win percentage, not the slight advantage to large advantage type thing it is actually supposed to represent, so it would probably make more sense to use a -5 to +5 rating system. We can convert directly since all the current ratings are 75 or below, and if after we're done we decide we want to show everything in the current form, it wouldn't be hard to convert it back. For the sake of not having to clarify what the numbers mean the whole time this is being done though, we should probably switch to a -5 to + 5 system.

 

[Olikus]

Since its pretty much the same system, Im not gonna use energy on it. If people wanna change it, fine by me.

T3h icy, update pika falcon to 55-45 so we can move on to fox.

 

[t3h Icy]

kkkkkkkkkk

 

[Battlecow]

Speaking of the greatest man with the better lyric. Have you seen the documentary "No Direction Home" about his early career? I need to see that asap.

No Direction Home is fantastic. Don't Look Back is even better IMO, see that if you have a chance. I'm Not There is terrible though

 

[Olikus]

No Direction Home is fantastic. Don't Look Back is even better IMO, see that if you have a chance. I'm Not There is terrible though

Looks like I have some great viewing ahead of me =).

Ontopic. Its no secret fox is better on hyrule than DL. Thats allso why I think many of the cast can go closer with him on DL. Like Kirby, falcon, yoshi and DK does better vs him on DL than hyrule. I would actually put kirby-fox as much as 60-40 because of the high gimp danger.

 

[Battlecow]

I feel like foxonjiggs/samus is worse than foxonweegee

 

[Olikus]

I feel like foxonjiggs/samus is worse than foxonweegee

On Hyrule fox vs samus/jiggs are worse than fox vs luigi. On DL yeah probably, but not by that much.

 

[The Star King]

Ha, even Olikus has conceded to giving up the silly number system. Take that, Battlecow! PWNED

I'm getting the sense that t3h Icy himself supports the number system, though.

I feel like foxonjiggs/samus is worse than foxonweegee

Samus: yes. Puff: no.

 

[clubbadubba]

Ontopic. Its no secret fox is better on hyrule than DL. Thats allso why I think many of the cast can go closer with him on DL. Like Kirby, falcon, yoshi and DK does better vs him on DL than hyrule. I would actually put kirby-fox as much as 60-40 because of the high gimp danger.

Definitely support 60-40 (+2, whatever) in favor of kirby for this match-up. I would give fox the slight advantage over falcon 55-45. Fox's speed neutralizes falcon's speed, which might be falcons biggest positive overall. Both can combo each other well, but Fox's attack speed gives him the slight edge, imo.

Also, I get the feeling that Star King has got jigglypuff's back for this chart.

 

[HellxBound]

I don't think fox has an advantage vs falcon on DL. Grab is too good for falcon, results in a death for fox very often. Also, falcon's deadly combos are far easier. I'd say it's 45:55 against fox, for DL obviously.