The Ness Support Thread

[error_alt_delete]

Do you flame so much you can no longer tell when you are doing it?, and your sentence about supporting Ness is contradicting.. If you know hes out.. why do you support him for brawl? Unlike us who don't think hes out...

Using smilies as part of my post is not spam... just because you and the other trolls/flamers don't like it doesn't mean its against the rules.. (Although by the logic I see that comes from most of the flamers.. anything that they don't like must be wrong, sadly.)

and please If you are going to support Ness, then welcome.. join our support.. but if you are going to tell us we are (Insert insult here) because Sakurai said (Insert reason here) then please find another thread.

for brawl!

so...you cant support ness unless you think he is in? that is just wrong! people support that which wont happen often, its their choice.

and I will say that if you are going to use smileys, then at the very least change them up, you are abuseing "cool" or the used to be "cool" smiley.

and we havnt been saying "insert insult here"(at least I havnt) we have been saying "insert reasoning ness is out here" and "insert scentance saying ness is out here".

 

[vesperview]

You fail at logic.

Pichu hasn't been mentioned in any update whatsoever, while Ness' name has been thrown around a few times. Wether that mention is good or bad news for Ness is to be seen, but the mentions alone make the situations that much more different.

You're a failure at understanding insinuations from the Color Changes update, which some people even took as a deconfirmation, so please, don't even tell me that Pichu isn't on the same situation as Ness because that would take the denial on this thread to a whole new level, the only thing separating them at the moment is popularity and even Pichu has a following, doubtful that he's returning just to please that following and Ness isn't exactly the most popular character in Smash either, if there is a disposable character from the first game it is Ness.

And what is your few times? 2? Gimme a break!

 

[vesperview]

Sorry, double post.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

You're a failure at understanding insinuations from the Color Changes update, which some people even took as a deconfirmation, so please, don't even tell me that Pichu isn't on the same situation as Ness because that would take the denial on this thread to a whole new level, the only thing separating them at the moment is popularity and even Pichu has a following, doubtful that he's returning just to please that following and Ness isn't exactly the most popular character in Smash either, if there is a disposable character from the first game it is Ness.

And what is your few times? 2? Gimme a break!

Way to go, you completely evaded my point.

Seriously, why would Sakurai be throwing around Ness' name?

Normally when a character gets cut, the game developers make sure to not even mention them, cause they are afraid they create hype around the character, and then the fans will expect that character to return. Dr Mario, Pichu, Young Link anyone? Not a single mention anywhere. Meanwhile both Ness and Captain Falcon have been mentioned. Is it a coincidence that they are veterans?

You see this a lot in the business.Throw around the name a few times and people get attached to it. That's why when characters get cut, they always make sure to not make a big deal out of it. Don't give any signs of hope. That way people tend to accept it.

That's exactly how it's NOT going with Ness. 2 out of 3 updates that Lucas has gotten, he was compared to Ness. Why compare him with Ness if he's not in the game? Why use Ness' name at all? Why create the hype around Ness?

They could've just said "This is Lucas, he is from the Mother series, blah blah blah", no instead they say "This is Lucas, he is like Ness". Why is he rubbing it in?

I've never seen a game developer create hype around a character when he knows that character isn't going to make it. It's just entirely against common sense. Does he intentionally want to hurt the Ness players?

Why remove a veteran that people have attached to?

Considering all this, I'd find it very unlikely for Ness to be removed.

But of course there is always the possibility that he does get cut, and in that case I'd find it very unprofessional of how Sakurai went about it.

Now then, one last thing... If you take a look around these boards you'd see that even if Ness was replaced by Lucas. Then Ness would still be a very popular choice for a new character. Moreso than most ridiculous suggestions on these boards.

Putting all this together, it can only mean two things to me.
1. Ness will return.
2. Sakurai is letting his fans down.

I'm sure a bunch of people will flame me for that last statement, but when comparing these decisions with other game developers' decisions... it's the only conclusion I can take.

( Example: If someone knows a thing or two about Starcraft, read the "story so far". And what do you know? a key character doesn't even get a single mention? How come? cause they're not to create any possible sign of hope of that character returning. )

PS. I'm currently studying Game Design, and I'm not gonna deny the possibility of being wrong, but I think I have a bit more insight into this matter.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Sakurai mentions several things from Melee. It doesn't mean that he's bringing them back.

He's just comparing Lucas to Ness. At what point do you say that Sakurai wouldn't mention Ness?

Your entire post ignored the fact that Lucas HAS Ness' moveset (and don't say he doesn't - movesets change, case-in-point: FLUDD, Gale Boomerang, Egg Throw, etc.). Watch this -

B: PK Freeze
Smash B: PSI Brainshock
Up B: PK Thunder
Down B: PK Earth
Final Smash: PK Starstorm

B: PK Flash
Smash B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Teleport
Down B: PSI Shield
Final Smash: PK Rockin'

See how easy it is to simply make a new moveset for Lucas and retain one for Ness? The only logical reason to give Lucas Ness' moveset is so that when they replace him, the moveset is not lost. As it stands, Ness is the only non-clone character that, if left behind, could have an unused moveset if it weren't for Lucas.

And studying game development does not make you wiser in the grand scheme of things, even game development. It just teaches you how to take pixels or polygons and link them to a controller.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

He's just comparing Lucas to Ness. At what point do you say that Sakurai wouldn't mention Ness?

Why mention him when he's removed? They didn't mention Dr Mario, Pichu and Young Link for example. Ness and Captain Falcon's names have been used in updates, because *gasp* there is a decent chance that they'll return. They just don't have an official update yet because they're gonna be secret characters, along with Luigi (who was leaked) and Jigglypuff.

Your entire post ignored the fact that Lucas HAS Ness' moveset (and don't say he doesn't - movesets change, case-in-point: FLUDD, Gale Boomerang, Egg Throw, etc.).

Although it has similarities, it's not the same moveset. All A attacks have been changed, and also half of the B attacks. Less than half of the moveset has been transfered over. I can hardly call that "having the same moveset".

Watch this -

B: PK Freeze
Smash B: PSI Brainshock
Up B: PK Thunder
Down B: PK Earth
Final Smash: PK Starstorm

B: PK Flash
Smash B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Teleport
Down B: PSI Shield
Final Smash: PK Rockin'

See how easy it is to simply make a new moveset for Lucas and retain one for Ness? The only logical reason to give Lucas Ness' moveset is so that when they replace him, the moveset is not lost. As it stands, Ness is the only non-clone character that, if left behind, could have an unused moveset if it weren't for Lucas.

You're forgetting that Ness has been using moves that weren't his own all along. PK Fire and PK Thunder were never used by Ness in Earthbound. It's a very good possibility that Ness and Lucas are both in the game and that their movesets are split like your example above.
Still, some abilities may be similar, like PSI Shield. Just like how Luigi can have the same Up B as Mario. (and note: not even PSI Shield and PSI Magnet are the same, since they have different mechanics)

I would say it's a very good possibility that they get different movesets, with perhaps a few similarities. To change your suggested movesets around a bit:

Lucas:
B: PK Freeze
Smash B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Thunder
Down B: PSI Magnet
Final Smash: PK Starstorm

Ness
B: PK Flash
Smash B: PK Paralysis
Up B: PK Teleport
Down B: PSI Shield
Final Smash: PK Rockin'

And studying game development does not make you wiser in the grand scheme of things, even game development. It just teaches you how to take pixels or polygons and link them to a controller.

Heh, and now you're telling me what I'm doing in school. I think have a better picture of that myself, thank you. There's quite a bit of theory involved in the business, but I guess you already knew that... because well... you know it all better than me.

Edit: Mistaken PSI Magnet and PK Barrage.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

So if they don't mention them, then they're out. I guess Marth hasn't been mentioned so that they don't build up hype for him?

And they have not been changed! Will you get out of denial and accept that fact of life?! They modified PK Flash to have a freezing effect and look different! It controls exactly the same - not one difference! And PK Fire? It's the same attack with a different effect!! So half of the moves are exactly the same, while one move is the same name and concept but with a slightly different concept, and another move is just a visual change to a move, as well as a freeze effect added. Like I said, that is no different from Young Link's Fire Arrows. And A moves? They had to change them. Lucas doesn't use Yo-Yos or Bats, he uses a plank, and his A moves also borrow from other characters like Duster.

Dude, there's only one move left for Ness that does damage and that's PK Rockin' in EB. They could hypothetically scrape the bottom of the barrel for any move from EB and make Brainshock and PK Teleport do damage, but why? Why not give him the moves from the first game and give Lucas PK Thunder? If they were going to give one of them a new moveset, why give Ness the new moveset?

Dude? Taking game development classes doesn't put you in a place to say what Sakurai would do. You know why he mentioned Ness? Because Lucas has Ness' moveset. You make it sound like Sakurai is trying to keep everything in the past that's not coming back. He mentioned Ness because Ness is being replaced by Lucas. Fun fact: What situation calls for mentioning Young Link, Pichu, or Dr. Mario?

 

[OysterMeister]

Sakurai mentions several things from Melee. It doesn't mean that he's bringing them back.

He's just comparing Lucas to Ness. At what point do you say that Sakurai wouldn't mention Ness?

Your entire post ignored the fact that Lucas HAS Ness' moveset (and don't say he doesn't - movesets change, case-in-point: FLUDD, Gale Boomerang, Egg Throw, etc.). Watch this -

B: PK Freeze
Smash B: PSI Brainshock
Up B: PK Thunder
Down B: PK Earth
Final Smash: PK Starstorm

B: PK Flash
Smash B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Teleport
Down B: PSI Shield
Final Smash: PK Rockin'

See how easy it is to simply make a new moveset for Lucas and retain one for Ness? The only logical reason to give Lucas Ness' moveset is so that when they replace him, the moveset is not lost. As it stands, Ness is the only non-clone character that, if left behind, could have an unused moveset if it weren't for Lucas.

Okay, this is getting to be ridiculous. Lucas and Ness aren't clones. Please, can we at least agree on this?

Here, I'll spell it out for you:
Sakurai said, and I quote:
But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.
So according to Sakurai, Lucas and Ness have completely different standard moves. This mean that Lucas and Ness CAN'T be clones.
Why? Well, because to be a clone a character must share a moveset, and if Lucas and Ness differ on each and every one of their 21 standard moves, then you can't say they're a clone just because of similarities in their specials.

Okay? Are we all on the same page here? Ness and Lucas? Not clones.

...Oh, and I agree with The Kirby Kong on his last post back there.

...And for the record, you can't compare Pichu to Ness because Pichu is a clone, whereas Ness is not.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Sakurai mentions several things from Melee. It doesn't mean that he's bringing them back.

He's just comparing Lucas to Ness. At what point do you say that Sakurai wouldn't mention Ness?

Your entire post ignored the fact that Lucas HAS Ness' moveset (and don't say he doesn't - movesets change, case-in-point: FLUDD, Gale Boomerang, Egg Throw, etc.). Watch this -

B: PK Freeze
Smash B: PSI Brainshock
Up B: PK Thunder
Down B: PK Earth
Final Smash: PK Starstorm

B: PK Flash
Smash B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Teleport
Down B: PSI Shield
Final Smash: PK Rockin'

See how easy it is to simply make a new moveset for Lucas and retain one for Ness? The only logical reason to give Lucas Ness' moveset is so that when they replace him, the moveset is not lost. As it stands, Ness is the only non-clone character that, if left behind, could have an unused moveset if it weren't for Lucas.

And studying game development does not make you wiser in the grand scheme of things, even game development. It just teaches you how to take pixels or polygons and link them to a controller.

Sakurai said himself that Lucas and Ness have different movesets, and only 1-2 moves out of an entire moveset is similar, or exactly the same(Pk Thunder,PK magnet)

Please stop trying to use movesets as deconfirming Ness, as it contridicts what Sakurai has clearly stated on the dojo.

Either way Sakurai also stated they are from the same family of PK users... so actually it makes more sense for them to be similar, rather than being completely different.

for brawl!

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Um, hi? You agree with The Kirby Kong even though HE brought up Pichu and made a comparison?

Fun fact: There has never been a reasoning for Sakurai to give Lucas Ness' moveset over giving him some of the several new M3 PSI moves. Never. If Ness would be coming back, logic states that he would come back with his moves, especially since Lucas has more options for moves than Ness.

And like I said, Lucas can't have the same A moves! He has different moves - no Yo-Yo, no Bat.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

*slams head on desk*

Wow, so apparently, they have to be 100% the same?

Young Link, Pichu, Ganondorf, Falco, Dr. Mario, and Roy all have slightly different moves from their respective cloned characters. But now because PK Freeze is considered more than "a slightly modified PK Flash" and PK Fire gets to be considered a different move just because it always goes straight and explodes upon impact? It's still the same move and the same concept. Do you think they'll give Ness PK Fire?

It's a modified version of Ness' moveset. Stop denying it.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Um, hi? You agree with The Kirby Kong even though HE brought up Pichu and made a comparison?

Fun fact: There has never been a reasoning for Sakurai to give Lucas Ness' moveset over giving him some of the several new M3 PSI moves. Never. If Ness would be coming back, logic states that he would come back with his moves, especially since Lucas has more options for moves than Ness.

And like I said, Lucas can't have the same A moves! He has different moves - no Yo-Yo, no Bat.

On the dojo it clearly says Ness and Lucas have differences in their moveset, neither has the others moveset.

You are jumping to conclusions and actually going against the facts that are on the dojo website.

Ness' moveset is still owned by Ness' and if implemented in brawl he would still not be a clone, nor would lucas.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

So if they don't mention them, then they're out. I guess Marth hasn't been mentioned so that they don't build up hype for him?

I wouldn't say it worked like that exclusively. Marth, Jigglypuff and Mewtwo have good chances even though they aren't mentioned.

And they have not been changed! Will you get out of denial and accept that fact of life?! They modified PK Flash to have a freezing effect and look different! It controls exactly the same - not one difference! And PK Fire? It's the same attack with a different effect!! So half of the moves are exactly the same, while one move is the same name and concept but with a slightly different concept, and another move is just a visual change to a move, as well as a freeze effect added. Like I said, that is no different from Young Link's Fire Arrows. And A moves? They had to change them. Lucas doesn't use Yo-Yos or Bats, he uses a plank, and his A moves also borrow from other characters like Duster.

You're actually confirming what I've been saying. That the moveset is not the same.

Dude, there's only one move left for Ness that does damage and that's PK Rockin' in EB. They could hypothetically scrape the bottom of the barrel for any move from EB and make Brainshock and PK Teleport do damage, but why? Why not give him the moves from the first game and give Lucas PK Thunder? If they were going to give one of them a new moveset, why give Ness the new moveset?

You just said that Lucas is borrowing moves from other characters, then I'm inclined to ask... why can't Ness do the same? And as if that isn't enough, it's always possible to come up with new stuff... *cough* PK Barrage.

Dude? Taking game development classes doesn't put you in a place to say what Sakurai would do. You know why he mentioned Ness? Because Lucas has Ness' moveset. You make it sound like Sakurai is trying to keep everything in the past that's not coming back. He mentioned Lucas because Ness is being replaced by him. Fun fact: What situation calls for mentioning Young Link, Pichu, or Dr. Mario?

I'm not comparing myself with Sakurai, but I am comparing myself with you. And clearly you have less experience than me.

As for the situation to mention those characters. I dunno, they don't need to be mentioned because they're cut?

But clearly this is not the case with Ness, Captain Falcon, Luigi and possibily Jigglypuff. The 4 original secret characters, of which 3 have been mentioned or leaked.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

*slam slam slam*

He would have two moves with NO differences.

And the other two moves would act extremely similarly.

There is no difference in the way you control either of their B moves

And the only difference between Ness and Lucas is that Ness' PK Fire can go in multiple directions and doesn't explode, but Lucas' goes in one direction and does explode.

Are you saying that that's a significant difference between them?

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Wow. Your game development skills do a great job with your debate skills.

Name the differences between their B moves.

And the A moves are different because they HAVE to be.

And PK Barrage? WTF? They have enough moves to give Ness and Lucas two different movesets. However, those extra moves are from Mother 3. Ness can't use them. It's not even a case of Ness using Paula's moves, it's a case of him taking moves from a different game in a different time period. If Sakurai was going to put both in, why would he give Lucas Ness' moves instead of any one of the new Mother 3 moves?

And on top of that, what makes you think that Sakurai wants both Ness and Lucas, even though he planned on replacing him in Melee?

 

[The Kirby Kong]

There is no difference in the way you control either of their B moves

And the only difference between Ness and Lucas is that Ness' PK Fire can go in multiple directions and doesn't explode, but Lucas' goes in one direction and does explode.

Are you saying that that's a significant difference between them?

We haven't seen Ness' moveset yet, so we can't say they control exactly the same?

The same way we also haven't seen Luigi yet, we can't really compare him to Mario without real information. But it's pretty obvious that they are similar in some ways.

Why can't the same be true for Ness and Lucas, do they have to be 100% different in order to make a chance of being in the game?

Heck, if you're so focused on similarities... you could also say that Zelda's "Din's Fire" and Lucas' "PK Fire" are too similar, cause they work almost exactly the same way. Or Bowsers' Firebreath, or Mario's Fireball... and *gasp*... even Luigi's Fireball.

You're really clutching at straws now.

 

[OysterMeister]

*slams head on desk*

Wow, so apparently, they have to be 100% the same?

Young Link, Pichu, Ganondorf, Falco, Dr. Mario, and Roy all have slightly different moves from their respective cloned characters. But now because PK Freeze is considered more than "a slightly modified PK Flash" and PK Fire gets to be considered a different move just because it always goes straight and explodes upon impact? It's still the same move and the same concept. Do you think they'll give Ness PK Fire?

It's a modified version of Ness' moveset. Stop denying it.

Well, Sakurai says in the update that Lucas' PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." So evidently HE thinks that flying straight and having a different explosion makes it a different move. And, you know what, I'd just bet that Sakurai would be willing to consider all of those tiny differences sufficient to separate Lucas' special moves from Ness'.

But you're missing the point. It doesn't matter how similar their specials are (although they're different enough), because Lucas has all different standard moves, which means that over 80% (trust me on this, I did the math) of his moveset is unique, and therefor he can't be a clone.

 

[DeuceBlade]

*slam slam slam*

He would have two movesets with NO differences.

And the other two moves would act extremely similarly.

There is no difference in the way you control either of their B moves

And the only difference between Ness and Lucas is that Ness' PK Fire can go in multiple directions and doesn't explode, but Lucas' goes in one direction and does explode.

Are you saying that that's a significant difference between them?

Ness and Lucas.. share no A moves. which is over 50% of a moveset.

Ness and lucas.. Have similar Special moves... ( and Sakurai has already stated why this is.. "They come from the same family of PK users" so clearly they must share some similarities.)

PK Fire.. works differently from Ness' which means both of them can use their PK Fire for different combos, and purposes.

PK Thunder works basically the same.. but once again this may just be part of the similarities Sakurai wanted in between the two, no one is certain for sure.

Pk Magnet... also works differently' while Lucas' PK magnet seems to be able to only guard infront of him... Ness' surrounds him protecting him from all sides, building to more a difference.. someone who plays more one on ones might choose Lucas, while people who play with larger crowds might choose Ness.

PK Freeze/PK Flash... now to say these things work exactly the same.. is jumping to conclusions since none of us have used Lucas at all.. so while they obviously do appear to function similar they are very different... one freezes, and one blows you far away

Also Lucas has a tether recovery, and Ness does not which means one could have better jumping priority, not to say Lucas will be a bad aerialist.

So although I know many will try to find flaw in this rather than logic.. I do know these can be used as good points in my opinion, and thats all that really matters to me.

 

[The Kirby Kong]

Name the differences between their B moves.

We don't know Ness' moveset, so I can't really compare them, can I?
But apparently (looking at the pictures and reading Sakurai's comments), PK Fire has a different trajectory, PK Freeze has a different effect and PSI Magnet has a different placement.

And PK Barrage? WTF? They have enough moves to give Ness and Lucas two different movesets. However, those extra moves are from Mother 3. Ness can't use them. It's not even a case of Ness using Paula's moves, it's a case of him taking moves from a different game in a different time period. If Sakurai was going to put both in, why would he give Lucas Ness' moves instead of any one of the new Mother 3 moves?

I might be wrong here, but when I looked up some info on Mother 3 I didn't come across anything named "PK Barrage", "PSI Barrage"... or anything "Barrage". I came to the conclusion that it's a new move that was created specifically for Brawl.

I never said Ness should get PK Barrage, I just said that they could do the same for Ness. Come up with some new moves just for Brawl. They did it for Lucas apparently, so what's stopping them?

And on top of that, what makes you think that Sakurai wants both Ness and Lucas, even though he planned on replacing him in Melee?

He might have changed his mind. And looking around these boards, I see that Ness is more popular than many other suggested characters that *could* be included.

He has popularity, an established fanbase, and he's a veteran. Why remove him?
It doesn't make any sense, and that's why I believe he'll be back.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

In Melee, you hold down B and guide PK Flash.

In Brawl, you hold down B and guide PK Freeze.

Maybe THAT'S how I know they control the same? It's a modification of Ness' PK Flash!

Um, dude? They're same move! Firebreath, Fireball. Din's Fire, PK Fire. PK Fire, PK Fire. Shoots out a little lightning bolt thing, causing a fire pillar to appear? Wow, so unique! They're the same move and concept. At no point did I say that having fire in their attack mattered, however, they are the same move with a slightly different effect! You honestly think that they are as different as Firebreath and Fireball?

And, okay, am I to understand that you, who actually says that Ness' B moves are unique enough, is accusing me of clutching at straws?

My straws are called fact and logic, thank you. Yours are strawmen arguments that say "you can't know that!" We've seen Ness' moveset in Melee. Is there a reason why you absolutely refuse to explain why Sakurai would give Lucas a modified version of Ness' moveset instead of *gasp* giving him a moveset consisting of new moves from Mother 3? Your only argument is the A moves, which consist of moves from Mother 3. Lucas barely ever uses bats, and I don't recall him ever using yo-yos. If they included Ness' A moves, they wouldn't be similar to what he is actually able to DO.

And they're still the same moves. So if SSBB is fanservice, where's the service in having two instances of PK Fire for literally no reason? And I repeat (for the millionth time) that Lucas has tons of moves that he could have used instead, while Ness now has few. So basically, Ness can only be in if he's redundant to Lucas.

THEY HAD TO GIVE HIM DIFFERENT A MOVES. They didn't HAVE to give him the same B moves. Why do you fight against me when I ask you to explain why Sakurai would reuse Ness' B moves for Lucas' moveset?

I have never once seen anyone explain why they would waste Lucas' moveset solely to make him a copy of Ness, if they're going to include Ness.

And the only reason Lucas didn't replace Ness in Melee was because M3 was cancelled. And now it's uncancelled. Why would Sakurai up and change his mind all of a sudden?

And:

They made Lucas similar to Ness so that he would be replaced, so that he would be more recognizable to newer gamers, and so that the moveset wouldn't be thrown in the trash. And your comparison screams "clone". Young Link's arrows have a fire attack, Young Link can aim his boomerang, Young Link can combo enemies with his sword spin.

 

[DeuceBlade]

In Melee, you hold down B and guide PK Flash.

In Brawl, you hold down B and guide PK Freeze.

Maybe THAT'S how I know they control the same? It's a modification of Ness' PK Flash!

Um, dude? They're same move! Firebreath, Fireball. Din's Fire, PK Fire. PK Fire, PK Fire. Shoots out a little lightning bolt thing, causing a fire pillar to appear? Wow, so unique! They're the same move and concept. At no point did I say that having fire in their attack mattered, however, they are the same move with a slightly different effect! You honestly think that they are as different as Firebreath and Fireball?

And, okay, am I to understand that you, who actually says that Ness' B moves are unique enough, is accusing me of clutching at straws?

My straws are called fact and logic, thank you. Yours are strawmen arguments that say "you can't know that!" We've seen Ness' moveset in Melee. Is there a reason why you absolutely refuse to explain why Sakurai would give Lucas a modified version of Ness' moveset instead of *gasp* giving him a moveset consisting of new moves from Mother 3? Your only argument is the A moves, which consist of moves from Mother 3. Lucas barely ever uses bats, and I don't recall him ever using yo-yos. If they included Ness' A moves, they wouldn't be similar to what he is actually able to DO.

And they're still the same moves. So if SSBB is fanservice, where's the service in having two instances of PK Fire for literally no reason? And I repeat (for the millionth time) that Lucas has tons of moves that he could have used instead, while Ness now has few. So basically, Ness can only be in if he's redundant to Lucas.

THEY HAD TO GIVE HIM DIFFERENT A MOVES. They didn't HAVE to give him the same B moves. Why do you fight against me when I ask you to explain why Sakurai would reuse Ness' B moves for Lucas' moveset?

I have never once seen anyone explain why they would waste Lucas' moveset solely to make him a copy of Ness, if they're going to include Ness.

And the only reason Lucas didn't replace Ness in Melee was because M3 was cancelled. And now it's uncancelled. Why would Sakurai up and change his mind all of a sudden?

And:

They made Lucas similar to Ness so that he would be replaced, so that he would be more recognizable to newer gamers, and so that the moveset wouldn't be thrown in the trash. And your comparison screams "clone". Young Link's arrows have a fire attack, Young Link can aim his boomerang, Young Link can combo enemies with his sword spin.

Lucas' A moves are more than 50% of his moveset... thats a massive chunk of difference.

and stop comparing Y. Link/ Link to Ness/Lucas... Ness/Lucas have way more differences then them.

 

[OysterMeister]

PK Fire, PK Fire. Shoots out a little lightning bolt thing, causing a fire pillar to appear? Wow, so unique! They're the same move and concept. At no point did I say that having fire in their attack mattered, however, they are the same move with a slightly different effect! You honestly think that they are as different as Firebreath and Fireball?

Sakurai sys that Lucas' PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." This is SAKURAI saying this. And if he says that the two PK Fires are "quite different" Then I'm going to believe him.

Is there a reason why you absolutely refuse to explain why Sakurai would give Lucas a modified version of Ness' moveset instead of *gasp* giving him a moveset consisting of new moves from Mother 3? Your only argument is the A moves, which consist of moves from Mother 3. Lucas barely ever uses bats, and I don't recall him ever using yo-yos. If they included Ness' A moves, they wouldn't be similar to what he is actually able to DO.

Why get hung up over standard moves being out of place when his special moves are already moves he couldn't do?
Not that it matters. The argument that Lucas can't have Ness' standard moves is bogus. Lucas uses bats. He uses sticks more, but come on. Besides, the Genuine Bat looks to be his best weapon.
And Mother 3 has Yo-yos in it, and Lucas can use them, so I see no reason why Lucas couldn't have the Bats and Yo-Yos that come with Ness' standard moves.

THEY HAD TO GIVE HIM DIFFERENT A MOVES. They didn't HAVE to give him the same B moves. Why do you fight against me when I ask you to explain why Sakurai would reuse Ness' B moves for Lucas' moveset?

Sakurai already gave the reason for this on the Lucas special moves update. He said that Lucas and Ness: "are from the same family of PK users."
Evidently, Sakurai feels that Lucas and Ness are similar enough as characters have similar specials.

I have never once seen anyone explain why they would waste Lucas' moveset solely to make him a copy of Ness, if they're going to include Ness.

I won't explain why Sakurai would make Lucas a copy of Ness because I don't think Sakurai made Lucas a copy of Ness.

And the only reason Lucas didn't replace Ness in Melee was because M3 was cancelled. And now it's uncancelled. Why would Sakurai up and change his mind all of a sudden?

All of a sudden? As in over the course of several years? Hazarding a guess, I'd say that maybe it's because things are different now?

They made Lucas similar to Ness so that he would be replaced, so that he would be more recognizable to newer gamers, and so that the moveset wouldn't be thrown in the trash. And your comparison screams "clone". Young Link's arrows have a fire attack, Young Link can aim his boomerang, Young Link can combo enemies with his sword spin.

It's not the fact that Yound Link's moves differed only slightly that made him a clone, it's the fact that his animations were identical (because that proved that he was a modified version of Link). If you check the pictures, you'll see that Lucas' specials all have different animations from Ness'. Or, at least, from what Ness' animation were in Melee.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I just find it odd that someone who wants or even thinks rocket slime could get in brawl has the right to criticize and argue that Ness could not be in brawl.

for brawl!

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

1. Things are different? Ness is even older and less relevant now, Lucas is newer and relevant. The situation has changed and made it HARDER for Ness to get in.

2. I find it odd that you're capable of forming words, what with the fact that you're incredibly stupid.

You say: Slime can't be in Brawl because I don't like him.

I say: Ness can't be in Brawl because he's too similar to Lucas.

Wow, that's a very similar argument. Bias versus logic.

Can you throw your computer into a river so the human race can finally stop having to read your incompetent drivel?

 

[DeuceBlade]

I just find it odd that someone who wants or even thinks rocket slime could get in brawl has the right to criticize and argue that Ness could not be in brawl.

for brawl!

1. Things are different? Ness is even older and less relevant now, Lucas is newer and relevant. The situation has changed and made it HARDER for Ness to get in.

2. I find it odd that you're capable of forming words, what with the fact that you're incredibly stupid.

You say: Slime can't be in Brawl because I don't like him.

I say: Ness can't be in Brawl because he's too similar to Lucas.

Wow, that's a very similar argument. Bias versus logic.

Can you throw your computer into a river so the human race can finally stop having to read your incompetent drivel?

I never said I didn't like slime... do you want facts?... Slime is third party... Slime is out prioritized by other third party characters.. like Megaman. Slime is only hugely popular in Japan.

and for your opinion... Ness and Lucas come from the same family of PK users (As stated by Sakurai), it would make sense for them to be too different, and they are not even exactly the same since they have different A moves, and only similar special moves.

I also saw you made a thread for Tingle (), I won't flame you for this even though others might... but you can't seriously say one character is out and you have all the logic when people could easily make logical assumptions about the characters you support.

for brawl!

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Um, okay? Your logic against Slime was that he couldn't work or that he shouldn't work.

I never argued Slime could get in, never, because better character choices existed. The whole thread was Slime vs. other SE characters.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Um, okay? Your logic against Slime was that he couldn't work or that he shouldn't work.

I never argued Slime could get in, never, because better character choices existed. The whole thread was Slime vs. other SE characters.

This isn't the slime thread, this is the ness support thread... atleast try to stay on topic.

Ness has a chance at being in brawl, if you do not see that or want to see that.. then there are other threads that may entertain you.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Please recall who attempted to troll by bringing up Slime in the first place.

 

[DekuBoy]

DeuceBlade your argument about the movesets was spot on. When playing as Ness I mainly use smash-attacks. Those are really the best attacks for Ness.
Also Sakurai must be proud of Ness' moveset for it to be re-used on a seperate character. I hope Sakurai knows where his loyalties stand...
Also DeuceBlade don't bring up Rocket Slime. Part of being a supporter is being open-minded to other characters.
Oh and LinkToTheSnitch, STOP DOUBLE POSTING! I know they were probably errors but use the edit-button please.

 

[DeuceBlade]

DeuceBlade your argument about the movesets was spot on. When playing as Ness I mainly use smash-attacks. Those are really the best attacks for Ness.
Also Sakurai must be proud of Ness' moveset for it to be re-used on a seperate character. I hope Sakurai knows where his loyalties stand...
Also DeuceBlade don't bring up Rocket Slime. Part of being a supporter is being open-minded to other characters.
Oh and LinkToTheSnitch, STOP DOUBLE POSTING! I know they were probably errors but use the edit-button please.

You are right, I will stay open minded to other characters, and not be biased. and he actually does double post often.. purposely.

for brawl!

 

[Agosta44]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this discussion, but why would Sakurai replace a character that was part of SSB from the beginning with a "clone"?

(yes, I know Lucas isn't a clone, but people use the special moves as an arguement)

 

[DekuBoy]

Now kiss and make up! lol
Also we should be open to the possibility of a Ness alt for Lucas. As a last resort. But I'm hoping for a seperate character.
And welcome to the boards Agosta44!

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this discussion, but why would Sakurai replace a character that was part of SSB from the beginning with a "clone"?

(yes, I know Lucas isn't a clone, but people use the special moves as an arguement)

Because he was going to in Melee

 

[DekuBoy]

And it's six years since Melee. Your point?

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

You are right, I will stay open minded to other characters, and not be biased. and he actually does double post often.. purposely.

for brawl!

Well, this is the fourth time you've brought up Slime for no reason besides to troll me, so I don't think you can go pointing fingers at anyone about anything.

And, DekuBoy, having six years pass without anything to cause Ness' position to improve is actually detrimental to Ness' chances.

I wish Ness were in, but as a unique character. I wanted him to have his moves, and Lucas to have his own unique moves to keep them unique to each other.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

And it's six years since Melee. Your point?

He could have done what he wanted in Melee, in Brawl

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

He could have done what he wanted in Melee, in Brawl

And on top of that, the reason why he was going to put Lucas in place of Ness was M3, but when it was cancelled, he kept Ness. This is a repeat situation - M3 came out, so he put Lucas in.

 

[DekuBoy]

To be honest there were probably more reasons. Sakurai wouldn't tell us everything would he?

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

That was definitely the most significant though.

 

[Agosta44]

We'll just have to wait till Friday, or until a CoroCoro leak to find out if the little man gets back in or not. Hopefully he will, he was a fun punching bag.

Also, he made the black hole possible. Good times, good times....