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Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

Drippy

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
753
You're wrong, it does change his core viability - simply because that single BnB combo WAS his core viability.

We will never see a Metaknight beat the likes of Mr.R or Nairo again. Ever.

This is the reality of the situation, get used to it.
What made MK so scary was because he never was out of the game, he had that comeback factor when behind and was always a frightening presence. Even if you had a 100% lead on him, that just made it easier for him to pull off the combo at earlier %s and kill you and people had to play really safe. This definitely will hurt him a lot but I strongly believe MK can still be a threat, maybe not top 8 at nationals (but who knows, to early to say) but we'll see.


My thoughts on the MK changes

I am happy that MK was nerfed. To be honest, being able to 0-death somebody without any reads was so rewarding it kinda felt unrewarding, especially when I would end up losing that match, which would show how good I really was as a player. The combo was also the reason why many of you flocked to this board like sheep looking for a brain dead combo to get you to victory, so hopefully, that will stop.

Just to clear things up, you are only an idiot if you think post patch MK is better than pre-patch MK. 4 frames of landing lag reduced on like a frame 13 doesn't make up for the fact that you could kill mario at 14% from dash attack to u-airs with no rage. I really hate ******* statements, so hopefully I won't see any of that anymore.

MK is definitely not as good as he used to be, but that doesn't mean he is no longer viable. He is still a good character imo, and can still place as high as he used to, just with more skill required.

I am working on seeing how far his punish game can be pushed now, and will continue optimizing as I have always been doing.
Pretty much summarizes my opinion. I don't think MK is garbage and still definitely a contender as a top 15 character even without the Uair -> Up B combo. Still working on implementing Fair into my gameplay but felt like it was way too overhyped as if the Fair change could make him for the loss of his death combo and personally it feels hard to land for me in the neutral. On the other hand I've been experimenting a lot more with SH Uairs and I wished I abused them more prepatch but with this patch now I'm forced too and after practicing them for hours in training mode I'm mad consistent with them, now it's just about pulling off the combos.

I'm certainly enjoying MK a lot as much as I did before. The death of his Uair -> Up B combo definitely hurt but now I'm focusing a lot more on other aspects of my gameplay moreso than just the combo now. Definitely going to continue solo maining the character and hopefully push him further.
 
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Ghidorah14

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
758
You're wrong, it does change his core viability - simply because that single BnB combo WAS his core viability.
I disagree completely. I think is the absolute wrong mentality to have with any character.

Wasnt the whole initial push behind early meta knight being that he's still viable despite his fall grace in the brawl days? Remember how much everyone pushed this character before the upair combo became a thing?

So he lost an early % death combo. SO WHAT? Those shouldnt be in fighting games anyway. They're cancer in fighting games that dont already revolve around "touch of death" combo mechanics.

Know what I say? Adapt or pick up a new character, goddamn it. Dont let MK become diddy 2.0.
 

(Buddha)

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Xandercosm

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I disagree completely. I think is the absolute wrong mentality to have with any character.

Wasnt the whole initial push behind early meta knight being that he's still viable despite his fall grace in the brawl days? Remember how much everyone pushed this character before the upair combo became a thing?

So he lost an early % death combo. SO WHAT? Those shouldnt be in fighting games anyway. They're cancer in fighting games that dont already revolve around "touch of death" combo mechanics.

Know what I say? Adapt or pick up a new character, goddamn it. Dont let MK become diddy 2.0.
What do you mean by "Diddy 2.0"?

I pretty much agree with what you said. Although, I don't think he deserved the nerf, he isn't completely ruined because of it. It is odd, though, how you're saying "there should be no 0-death combos in a fighting game" when you main Bayonetta.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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MK was perhaps top 5 before December.
His results and success from his mains had started to hit a very upward trend.
Then Cloud happened, the thunder was stolen, "wow this character is stupid"; and albeit it not instantly, within a month this character was already bringing in more than twice the results of any other high/top tier bar Mario/Sheik.
Then Bayo happened. A similar scenario but an even faster punch to MK's spleen.

He was strong as an anti-meta character but the game released 2, maybe even three, counters who were also undeniably top tier. Then they've bashed him up a bit.

He may still roughly be where he was before, but 'before' is some sort of unknown reality where at least 3 common top tiers gave him a lot of trouble and was likely going to push him towards or out of top 10.
 
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Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
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MK was perhaps top 5 before December.
His results and success from his mains had started to hit a very upward trend.
Then Cloud happened, the thunder was stolen, "wow this character is stupid"; and albeit it not instantly, within a month this character was already bringing in more than twice the results of any other high/top tier bar Mario/Sheik.
Then Bayo happened. A similar scenario but an even faster punch to MK's spleen.

He was strong as an anti-meta character but the game released 2, maybe even three, counters who were also undeniably top tier. Then they've bashed him up a bit.

He may still roughly be where he was before, but 'before' is some sort of unknown reality where at least 3 common top tiers gave him a lot of trouble and was likely going to push him towards or out of top 10.
I do not believe Cloud or Bayonetta were counters to Meta Knight. In fact I feel the match ups were reletively even. Several Meta Knights were knocked out in bracket by Bayo's but I think that is just part of the adjustment period. It is just both of those characters have attributes, particularly Cloud, that give a greater return on investment for the amount of work required. Meta Knight has always been a difficult character to optimize properly, and even now Meta Knight mains are complaining about possibly having to main a secondary just because it is difficult to play properly without solo maining the character.

I really do not think those characters gave him trouble, just that they were really good in their own right with relatively less effort.
 
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Ghidorah14

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
758
What do you mean by "Diddy 2.0"?
I mean, dont let him become the character who was known for "that one thing" and is referred to as being part of "the dark times," where that negative stigma follows him around for the rest of the game's lifespan. MK already went through that in brawl, but in brawl, EVERYTHING about him was stupid. I dont want to see MK become known as the one trick pony who can no longer do that one trick.

I pretty much agree with what you said. Although, I don't think he deserved the nerf, he isn't completely ruined because of it. It is odd, though, how you're saying "there should be no 0-death combos in a fighting game" when you main Bayonetta.
Bayo was actually designed around lengthy combos, and most are DI-able. Removing those lengthy combos would destroy the point of the character, especially considering her lack on kill options outside of that. Its not like Mk was, were as soon as you landed a dash attack, you just flatout took a stock.
 

Yσנιмιтѕυ

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User was warned for this post
I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
 

pancakemix31

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I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
Saying that meta knight dropped below top 20 is incredibly naive thinking.
First off, the patch hasn't even been out a week yet. He lost an amazing setup on SOME characters when they have OPTIMAL DI(and even with optimal di rosa and other floaties will still die from the combo because up air won't put them into tumble meaning they cannot di as effectively) and that's about it.
Secondly, from a buff/change point of view we got a usable option in the neutral now with the lowered landing lag on forward air and the new up air has already proven to lead to some rediculous strings at low %s(dash attack into short hop up air x2 into back air reset, down tilts, yada yada) while still maintaining its use at mid-high percents of setting up kills into shuttle loop off of air dodge reads. The move is still amazing and one of if not his best combo tool.
TL;DR: Meta-Knight got hit with a nerf to up airs that coincidentally opened his punish game up to 30-50% combos from a dash attack at 0%. That alone stops him from being dropped below top 10.
 
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Xandercosm

Smash Lord
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I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
That's pretty much discounting the plethora of amazing traits MK had/has outside of his old death combo. You're buying right in to the issue. MK was never all about his death combos. How many times did a player use them in one match? Maybe once to take one stock. In fact, most of the times U-air wasn't used for the death combo but to lead into early kills with 1 U-air to and Up-Special when the opponent got in the right position above MK. You can still do that.

Not THAT much has even been taken away from MK. He still has one of the best recoveries in the game, solid frame data, great Smashes, speed, an amazing combo game. Your argument holds pretty much no water.

MK was perhaps top 5 before December.
His results and success from his mains had started to hit a very upward trend.
Then Cloud happened, the thunder was stolen, "wow this character is stupid"; and albeit it not instantly, within a month this character was already bringing in more than twice the results of any other high/top tier bar Mario/Sheik.
Then Bayo happened. A similar scenario but an even faster punch to MK's spleen.

He was strong as an anti-meta character but the game released 2, maybe even three, counters who were also undeniably top tier. Then they've bashed him up a bit.

He may still roughly be where he was before, but 'before' is some sort of unknown reality where at least 3 common top tiers gave him a lot of trouble and was likely going to push him towards or out of top 10.
As was said before, I don't think Cloud and Bayo were bad MUs for MK. They really just stole the thunder.

I mean, dont let him become the character who was known for "that one thing" and is referred to as being part of "the dark times," where that negative stigma follows him around for the rest of the game's lifespan. MK already went through that in brawl, but in brawl, EVERYTHING about him was stupid. I dont want to see MK become known as the one trick pony who can no longer do that one trick.



Bayo was actually designed around lengthy combos, and most are DI-able. Removing those lengthy combos would destroy the point of the character, especially considering her lack on kill options outside of that. Its not like Mk was, were as soon as you landed a dash attack, you just flatout took a stock.
MK could get the kill off of a single dash attack. Bayo gets one off of a single D-tilt or Down-Special. Don't say BS like that just because you main Bayonetta. 0-deaths should be in fighting games. But they should actually take skill unlike Bayo's.
 

busken

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
677
yh, mk has so many punish options. Picking the right one can be hard at times.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
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Messages
15,817
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Ferndale, MI
I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
Who are you and why are you rambling off nonsense?

This is why we moved to Discord.
 

Ghidorah14

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
758
MK could get the kill off of a single dash attack. Bayo gets one off of a single D-tilt or Down-Special. Don't say BS like that just because you main Bayonetta. 0-deaths should be in fighting games. But they should actually take skill unlike Bayo's.
I actually dont main bayo. I main bowser/mewtwo. I'm still learning bayo.
 

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Who are you and why are you rambling off nonsense?

This is why we moved to Discord.
I rarely come over here because of this. People are like it's the end of the world because MK can't do the ladder (even though Ito and Leo have done it, and Tyrant confirmed it's possible). The people at the MK Discord got over the nerf a long time ago, yet some people here continue to blow it way out of proportions.

This thread has been akin to a graveyard ever since the nerf, and no offense, but I'm not happy that this whining and moping is visible to non-MK visitors.

To put it bluntly: grow up and put up with the nerfs.
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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As an update:

My first tournament as patched Knight went well. 3rd out of 41, beating several top Ontario players. All :4metaknight:.

We livin'.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
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I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
Someone's overreaction hasn't died down.

It's always amusing to watch the drama queen parade that comes by after a patch drops. It hasn't even been a week yet but why don't we just all give up and go into fetal position?
As humans we are an adaptable species, but if it proves too daunting for you there is always the way out.
 
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BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
The problem with half the posters on this thread is that they take MK's pre-patch success and top-tier position completely for granted. Do you remember the days before Leo wrecked Mr. R, when people said MK was mid-tier? One 14 year old kid stood up and made a change, and with his effort this character was able to get to where he was before the patch. And Leo, Tyrant, and Ito have not shown signs of giving up, while Abadango and Jband are still clinging on in uncertainty.

By complaining and moping and over-exaggerating the effects of the nerfs (one move does not make a character top-tier), we are doing a disservice to the progress made, and this immature behavior is both toxic to this character's meta game and the competitive scene as a whole. This character will not die or fade into borderline viability due to nerfs; if this character dies, it will only be because a disturbing amount of MK players are unwilling to look at the character as a whole, and tunneled down on one punish.
 

W.A.C.

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
738
One aspect about Meta Knight's meta development is people became consistent with their setups by grinding training mode and 99 stock CPU matches constantly. Kill confirm training mode combos with up air aren't true with perfect DI anymore. Basically a huge part of how people trained to get good with the character is no longer a good option. That is devastating to the character's meta development and will result in a lot more inconsistency.
 
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Xandercosm

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One aspect about Meta Knight's meta development is people became consistent with their setups by grinding training mode and 99 stock CPU matches constantly. Kill confirm training mode combos with up air aren't true with perfect DI anymore. Basically a huge part of how people trained to get good with the character is no longer a good option. That is devastating to the character's meta development and will result in a lot more inconsistency.
Ugh. It's you again. The guy who made that ultra whiny thread in General about how you hate MK because he has one laggy move and how you can't find a main. What you're saying pretty much holds no merit. No character can be carried by one move. He's got so many other things that make him good. If he was say... Jiggs, who is terrible in pretty much every way, but he still had his U-air death combo, he would suck. Because a single combo can't carry an entire character.

He has so much outside of that combo. Good frame data, speed, power, an amazing un-edgeguardable recovery, devestating combo game, and more. I really shouldn't even be wasting my time responding to your comment, though. I usually ignore the whiny types.

Your signature pretty much sums up the type of person you are.
 
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W.A.C.

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
738
Ugh. It's you again. The guy who made that ultra whiny thread in General about how you hate MK because he has one laggy move and how you can't find a main. What you're saying pretty much holds no merit. No character can be carried by one move. He's got so many other things that make him good. If he was say... Jiggs, who is terrible in pretty much every way, but he still had his U-air death combo, he would suck. Because a single combo can't carry an entire character.

He has so much outside of that combo. Good frame data, speed, power, an amazing un-edgeguardable recovery, devestating combo game, and more. I really shouldn't even be wasting my time responding to your comment, though. I usually ignore the whiny types.

Your signature pretty much sums up the type of person you are.
You're twisting my words around. I don't hate MK. In fact, he was one of my favorite characters to play as of 1.14, but I got sick of his limited neutral because it was just dash attack and dash grab thanks to his lackluster aerial frame data. After they changed shield stun, his lackluster aerial neutral became way too annoying to deal with.
 

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
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Oct 20, 2015
Messages
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One aspect about Meta Knight's meta development is people became consistent with their setups by grinding training mode and 99 stock CPU matches constantly. Kill confirm training mode combos with up air aren't true with perfect DI anymore. Basically a huge part of how people trained to get good with the character is no longer a good option. That is devastating to the character's meta development and will result in a lot more inconsistency.
The uair combos were never true with optimal DI. Pre-patch, DI'ing in, down, or down and away on the dash attack would often make it impossible to land the first uair, and Shuttle Loop could be avoided by DI'ing in on the last uair, as that would leave you above MK in SL's blindspot.

Post-patch, because the combo starts later, DI'ing in on the dash attack will actually make it easier to land the first uair (opponents fly slightly farther now because of the higher %). Because of the higher SDI multiplier, players should now SDI to go behind MK and get launched by the rear hitbox of the uair--the problem here is that it results in no DI if they still get launched by the front hit (assuming their using the c stick for SDI and the normal stick for DI). Proper SDI has the danger of poor/lack of combo DI in this situation. The opponent can DI any other way, but whether they DI down, away, or up, the uair still has enough hitstun to follow-up. What the nerfs have done is no more than to tighten MK's reaction window to the opponent's DI; previously, the reaction window was very lenient.

It was very simple to avoid death from the old uair combo (ESAM demonstrates this in his set vs Tyrant, pre-patch). But the thing is, people never care to learn the nuances of DI'ing commonly used set-ups.

For example, Ness's dthrow -> fair string. The fairs can be easily avoided by most characters by DI'ing the down throw up, forcing Ness to go for a uair. Another example: Fox's dair -> usmash. The usmash can be avoided by DI'ing down and teching (this doesn't work for floaties). However, in such situations, most players DI away or up and away out of instinct. These combos have been here since version 1.0 and people are still getting caught in them.

So what makes you think that after 1 week, people will suddenly know how to optimally DI out of the new uair combo, when they never learnt how to DI out of the old ladder over the course of more than a year?

And about the combo being more "inconsistent"--was it ever consistent to begin with? If you watch, Leo, Tyrant and even Abadango, the majority of the stocks they took weren't due to uair combos.
 
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Jamurai

Victory is my destiny
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Did well at my first tourney, 13th out of ~30 with good players attending. Took out one of the best regulars in pools to knock him out and proceed to 16-man bracket, where I had to fight Khanage (best Peach UK, #14 overall) and then a good Robin in losers. In my set against Khanage I got a FF Bair to Dtilt lock but missed the followup, and also dropped a Uair combo so it could have been a lot closer but oh well. Got a stock off him at least. Gotta practise execution for next time.

People kept coming up to me and telling me that MK is scary, and I don't even know matchups or optimal combos, I was even playing on a 3DS controller. Didn't feel like the character was holding me back at all, rather the opposite. I think MK is still very good, just much more honest.
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
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Nov 11, 2014
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1,554
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East Coast
Where should I start if I want to start seriously playing this character? I realize he just got nerfed but Tyrant's play last night was incredibly fun to watch, and I like what he has going on. I tinkered with him before but never got serious. Where to start (other than just playing him of course) anything to lab out?
 

Xandercosm

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Where should I start if I want to start seriously playing this character? I realize he just got nerfed but Tyrant's play last night was incredibly fun to watch, and I like what he has going on. I tinkered with him before but never got serious. Where to start (other than just playing him of course) anything to lab out?
Lab D-throw and running F-throw combos. Lab his new U-air strings. Practice getting F-smash reads and spacing it out in neutral. Also throw in a little practice with his new F-air and edge-guarding with his N-air and you've got yourself a solid MK. Easier said than done, though.

Some throw followups to lab: D-throw -> F-air, this one is F-airly easy. You can also go for D-throw -> U-air -> F-air (I believe it can be a true combo). You can also do D-throw -> turnaround (or perfect pivot if you wanna roll that way) B-air. Then there is D-throw -> U-smash which is pretty reliable at early to mid percents for racking damage. As for running F-throw, you can followup with a SL (Shuttle Loop) at higher percents for the kill. You can also use it to lead into a lot of the same followups I mentioned for D-throw. It's a good way to mix up his grab/throw game.

Hope this helps!
 
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C0rvus

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It does, thanks. I really enjoy aggressively edgeguarding, and watching Tyrant put so much pressure on VoiD's Sheik offtstage was crazy. Makes me want to put on the mask tbh.
 

BunbUn129

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It does, thanks. I really enjoy aggressively edgeguarding, and watching Tyrant put so much pressure on VoiD's Sheik offtstage was crazy. Makes me want to put on the mask tbh.
After getting used to my reborn main, I have realized just how much Meta Knight's edge-guarding ability is so heavily underdeveloped and underutilized. It's funny because MK was clearly never intended to be a character who killed you off the top at ludicrously low damages; he is obviously designed to be a character who racks up damage at low %'s, before forcing you offstage and harassing you until you can no longer return, or die outright. So many elements of his design support this:

-one of the best recoveries, with 5 jumps and 3 safe recovery specials. Unlike all other multi-jumpers sans:4jigglypuff:, Meta Knight's jumping ability is not offset by poor air speed and acceleration. His air speed is 0.99 (35th) at borderline average, while his acceleration is middle-of-the-road at 0.065. As such, unlike say :4kirby::4dedede:, MK's edge-guarding is not significantly hindered by limited maneuverability.

-fast, disjointed aerial attacks; dair is frame 4, tied with :4lucario:'s for the fastest in start-up, and semi-spikes. Nair is frame 6 with a lingering hitbox. Fair is frame 9 with long range, and most infamously, at frame 7, bair has good range and duration and absurd power.

-aerials that are surprisingly strong for their speed. In order of KO percents offstage on :4mario::
*bair(90%)
*strong nair(100%)
*fair(120%)
*dair(140%)

-furthermore, the majority of the buffs Meta Knight received over updates, in one way or another, boosted his edge-guarding game:
*nair (7%/5%->10%/7.5%)
*bair (KBG 180->212 (lol))
*dair range increased
*f tilt (7%->8%, sends at a horizontal angle)
*jab (range increased, making it good for covering ledge options)
*reduced lag on nair and fair makes them safer to use for forcing opponents offstage

-----On a side note, Meta Knight was so drastically nerfed coming over from Brawl, and it always escaped any reason as to why such an overpowering option like the Rufio combo was left intact. This further goes to show it was never a part of his intended character design-----

Characters like :4jigglypuff::4ganondorf::4kirby::4dedede: have strong edge-guarding games, but this strength is buried under a heap of flaws elsewhere in their design: most notably their lackluster neutral games. Being able to threaten someone offstage, in reality, does not matter when you cannot get them there in the first place, which is why :4metaknight: stands out from them: he has the tools and safety in his neutral game, along with the combo potential to rack up damage, both of which in turn make his edge-guarding ability a realistic threat to even those whose recoveries rival his own. Complementing this, Meta Knight has scary KO potential onstage, meaning he is essentially a "pick your poison" character.

As an MK player, I have a frame 8 up smash, a powerful and safe fsmash, an up special that hits on frame 7/8 and can easily be comboed into, and two throws that KO at reasonable percents. That, or I can opt to put opponents into a recovery situation, from where I can edge-guard and gimp with aerials, or hit ledge options with jab, usmash, fsmash, SL and Tornado.

I imagine that MK's new meta will still be terrifying for this reason: rather than doing everything in your power to avoid the ladder, you now have to consider and figure out what option MK will go for to KO. By staying at center stage, you risk dash attack -> SL, or down tilt tech chases. By staying at the ledge, you risk being put into an edge-guard situation.

Tl;DR Meta Knight, IMO, is still among the best characters in the KO department, due to varied KOing options that can be mixed up to keep opponents guessing.
 
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Xandercosm

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After getting used to my reborn main, I have realized just how much Meta Knight's edge-guarding ability is so heavily underdeveloped and underutilized. It's funny because MK was clearly never intended to be a character who killed you off the top at ludicrously low damages; he is obviously designed to be a character who racks up damage at low %'s, before forcing you offstage and harassing you until you can no longer return, or die outright. So many elements of his design support this:

-one of the best recoveries, with 5 jumps and 3 safe recovery specials. Unlike all other multi-jumpers sans:4jigglypuff:, Meta Knight's jumping ability is not offset by poor air speed and acceleration. His air speed is 0.99 (35th) at borderline average, while his acceleration is middle-of-the-road at 0.065. As such, unlike say :4kirby::4dedede:, MK's edge-guarding is not significantly hindered by limited maneuverability.

-fast, disjointed aerial attacks; dair is frame 4, tied with :4lucario:'s for the fastest in start-up, and semi-spikes. Nair is frame 6 with a lingering hitbox. Fair is frame 9 with long range, and most infamously, at frame 7, bair has good range and duration and absurd power.

-aerials that are surprisingly strong for their speed. In order of KO percents offstage on :4mario::
*bair(90%)
*strong nair(100%)
*fair(120%)
*dair(140%)

-furthermore, the majority of the buffs Meta Knight received over updates, in one way or another, boosted his edge-guarding game:
*nair (7%/5%->10%/7.5%)
*bair (KBG 180->212 (lol))
*dair range increased
*f tilt (7%->8%, sends at a horizontal angle)
*jab (range increased, making it good for covering ledge options)
*reduced lag on nair and fair makes them safer to use for forcing opponents offstage

-----On a side note, Meta Knight was so drastically nerfed coming over from Brawl, and it always escaped any reason as to why such an overpowering option like the Rufio combo was left intact. This further goes to show it was never a part of his intended character design-----

Characters like :4jigglypuff::4ganondorf::4kirby::4dedede: have strong edge-guarding games, but this strength is buried under a heap of flaws elsewhere in their design: most notably their lackluster neutral games. Being able to threaten someone offstage, in reality, does not matter when you cannot get them there in the first place, which is why :4metaknight: stands out from them: he has the tools and safety in his neutral game, along with the combo potential to rack up damage, both of which in turn make his edge-guarding ability a realistic threat to even those whose recoveries rival his own. Complementing this, Meta Knight has scary KO potential onstage, meaning he is essentially a "pick your poison" character.

As an MK player, I have a frame 8 up smash, a powerful and safe fsmash, an up special that hits on frame 7/8 and can easily be comboed into, and two throws that KO at reasonable percents. That, or I can opt to put opponents into a recovery situation, from where I can edge-guard and gimp with aerials, or hit ledge options with jab, usmash, fsmash, SL and Tornado.

I imagine that MK's new meta will still be terrifying for this reason: rather than doing everything in your power to avoid the ladder, you now have to consider and figure out what option MK will go for to KO. By staying at center stage, you risk dash attack -> SL, or down tilt tech chases. By staying at the ledge, you risk being put into an edge-guard situation.

Tl;DR Meta Knight, IMO, is still among the best characters in the KO department, due to varied KOing options that can be mixed up to keep opponents guessing.
As long as his dedicated players keep playing him, he'll be fine. His meta is different now but not plainly worse. He still revolves around baiting his super scary kill options and destroying the opponent if they step offstage for even a moment. The recent Tyrant vs. Void set was a perfect example of how MK hasn't really lost too much at all. He still is a force to be reckoned with. He'll always be dominant in the meta as long as we don't all drop him just because one move got nerfed.
 

Shadow Keebey

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I've not really commented here before, but Meta Knight has been in existence for 23 years starting today.
This is the day Kirby's Adventure was released in Japan. So, I would say that makes him 23.
 

Yσנιмιтѕυ

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That's pretty much discounting the plethora of amazing traits MK had/has outside of his old death combo. You're buying right in to the issue. MK was never all about his death combos. How many times did a player use them in one match? Maybe once to take one stock. In fact, most of the times U-air wasn't used for the death combo but to lead into early kills with 1 U-air to and Up-Special when the opponent got in the right position above MK. You can still do that.

Not THAT much has even been taken away from MK. He still has one of the best recoveries in the game, solid frame data, great Smashes, speed, an amazing combo game. Your argument holds pretty much no water.



As was said before, I don't think Cloud and Bayo were bad MUs for MK. They really just stole the thunder.



MK could get the kill off of a single dash attack. Bayo gets one off of a single D-tilt or Down-Special. Don't say BS like that just because you main Bayonetta. 0-deaths should be in fighting games. But they should actually take skill unlike Bayo's.
As long as his dedicated players keep playing him, he'll be fine. His meta is different now but not plainly worse. He still revolves around baiting his super scary kill options and destroying the opponent if they step offstage for even a moment. The recent Tyrant vs. Void set was a perfect example of how MK hasn't really lost too much at all. He still is a force to be reckoned with. He'll always be dominant in the meta as long as we don't all drop him just because one move got nerfed.

You literally have no idea what tf you're talking about.
 

BunbUn129

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You literally have no idea what tf you're talking about.
1) form your own opinions and observations; just spitting out what a top player (who doesn't main MK) says does not really back up your point. If anything it only discredits your point by making it clear you do not know what you are talking about.
2) ZeRo has had a lot of misguided impressions; do you remember when he said Roy was high tier and the best sword character?
 
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Ghidorah14

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Apparently ZeRo, someone who does not play MK at all, is the end-all be-all authority on MK and we should just accept his opinions as fact.
 

Yσנιмιтѕυ

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yojimitsu
I feel like this whole thread has become one big exercise in futility. Be optimistic all you want! shoot, play MK all you want - but just to let y'all know - he's not top tier anymore, not even top 20 anymore. If we're talking about if he's a good character or not, sure I agree he's still playable, but so is Samus. Here's a fact: he got nerfed. The reality is that now he's pretty much just another mid-tier character along with 80% of the rest of the cast - get used to it! I can already hear y'all getting pissy that abadango/ito/leo dropped him, or that you don't see any MKs winning against any nationally known players (zero, nairo, dabuz). Those days are as gone as the shuttle loop combo.

I'm just going to keep going on this rant train because why not. So here goes:

Stop trying to call out people out who "bandwagoned" metaknight. Literally, no one cares if you played MK "before it was cool". This is what happened: someone figured out that he had a ridiculously effective mechanic and also figured out how to abuse it. This same person used it against a really really good player (mr.r) and demonstrated the effectiveness of the character. A lot of people saw that, and saw how effective it was, and decided to pick up the character. It's a good thing! Stop trying to shame me for playing a character that's effective! Let's not forget... how do you think people figured out that marth or fox was a good character in melee? Hmmm... maybe it was because Ken figured out that marths tools could be abused in a really really ridiculously effective way to win tournaments?

Not that I even care lol this is a goddamn video game, literally who tf cares what character you play and why - it's almost completely about if you can win or not, and also how and why you can beat your opponent.
1. Here's my formed opinion - before zero put out his video.

2. Zero is the best smash 4 player in the world, I'm going to trust his opinion, granted I don't agree with everything he says but he knows what tf he's talking about.
 

Shadow Keebey

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Uhh... I really want to make a dumb comment about how Zero is not the best player of Smash 4 in the world, but is rather the final boss of a Kirby game. ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player in the world.

Oh, I just did.
 
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