Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

No.

lol you must be a trump supporter

 

[The Goldenbrawler]

MK gets 1 combo removed and people think that makes him unviable?

 

[Ghidorah14]

lol you must be a trump supporter

How to tell when someone is losing an argument.

 

[Jamurai]

Being the best at playing this game doesn't mean you know a lot about every character. Every character is more complicated than people think they are, and usually only their mains actually know what buffs and nerfs truly mean for them.

https://twitter.com/Warchamp7/status/709049331874144256

Also, people are free to give up on MK cause he was nerfed of course, however, insulting people for being optimistic and sticking with him makes you a nobhead. No one knows how he'll end up in this patch, a LOT changed aside from MK's changes and it's only been a single week. No one is right or wrong, so stop speaking like you are; one can only be optimistic or pessimistic instead.

 

[Xandercosm]

You literally have no idea what tf you're talking about.

Nice dude. Thanks. @Katakiri, can you maybe acknowledge this BS? Just pointing it out. This type of stuff nets you a warning when you post it anywhere other than a character board.

 

[Magnemite]

of course a video that only acknowledges the bad things that came from the patch (yes he talked about the fair buff but didn't talk about nearly everything it provides) is not going to be accurate. It's really hard to say how viable post patch mk is right now, but tyrant beating two of the best west coast sheiks with only a week of labbing the new mk makes it really hard to argue that mk is significantly worse off now.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Just wanted to say something regarding using Zero as a source. He is the best Smash 4 player around at the moment but he is not exactly the most well versed at giving educated opinions or knowledge about the meta. There are sources I trust more such as My Smash Corner, Beefy Doods, DungeonMaster, Izaw, etc. Nothing against Zero, I just can't bring myself to watch his videos since it seems that he records while speaking at the top of his head. It's just not the ideal way to convey information imo.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo,Tyrant(maybe) and Ito(maybe) will not solo MK they have secondaries such as Diddy,Fox and Cloud. They want to win after all.

Just according to Keikaku.

he should honestly solo main diddy

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

*My comment that I posted on ZeRo's Meta Knight 1.1.5 analysis video*

"You guys are overreacting way too much about the nerf and the MK players that say they main MK and say that he didn't need a nerf are lying to themselves. As an MK main since 3DS, I highly agree with this nerf that needed to be made. If a character can cheese the entire cast at anything below 30% with a dash attack to Uair string, that's a problem. If a character can ZTD the entire cast with not that much effort because I could do it with relative ease consistently, that's a problem. If a character forces you to position yourself at a disadvantaged state by always having to stay near the ledge so that you don't die to Uair UpB, that's a major problem. But, I do not agree with people that say he isn't top tier anymore. People that say that his death combo is the only thing that he had going for him is failing to notice the other amazing things about him. Also, just as a note, the death combo is still completely possible on the cast but it just requires more skill from the MK to execute."

I would've wrote more of my thoughts and reasonings but I reached my word limit on the post lol. I'll probably go back and add more to it later at some point.

 

[Zult]

1. Here's my formed opinion - before zero put out his video.

2. Zero is the best smash 4 player in the world, I'm going to trust his opinion, granted I don't agree with everything he says but he knows what tf he's talking about.

He said Bayonetta was barely top 20 when she came out lol. Why was he wrong? Because he formed an opinion too early with little information. He's doing the same thing with MK right now. Not saying he's wrong about MK, but wouldn't be surprised if he was.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

You literally have no idea what tf you're talking about.

I literally can't stop laughing at how dumb this response is.

 

[BunbUn129]

I literally can't stop laughing at how dumb this response is.

"You're so dumb, guys, Meta Knight is ****."

*Links us a video of ZeRo's impressions.

There are so many things wrong with this.

 

[Xandercosm]

He proceeded to send me a hate PM after making that comment too. I don't get what his deal is.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

I'd be willing to bet money that every single player in the top 20 PR list would say MK is below top 20 now.

in fact if anyone wants to prove that and call this point out, I'll put money up.

Hmu for a MM too while you're at it if you want

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I can play run-of-the-mill $5.99 users in my own state.

Your money doesn't really mean anything here. I honestly don't care what the "top 20 PR" players think if like only one of them actually mains the character. What do you don't seem to get is while, top level players have great knowledge of the game in general, they do not have great knowledge of every character. I am far more inclined to believe a top or high level player who mains this character and understands the nuances and intricacies of the character. Sure, I've played a million Sheiks of all skill levels. Does it mean I'm a Sheik expert? Nope.

Like this is all incredibly fundamental knowledge. I'm honestly in awe that I have to even explain this to people. But then again the 'Boards aren't the best place for meaningful discussion these days.

Go back to Midgar, please. This is boring.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'd be willing to bet money that every single player in the top 20 PR list would say MK is below top 20 now.

in fact if anyone wants to prove that and call this point out, I'll put money up.

Hmu for a MM too while you're at it if you want

Someone so ignorant and so reliant on others' opinions is not worth Arab money.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'd be willing to bet money that every single player in the top 20 PR list would say MK is below top 20 now.

in fact if anyone wants to prove that and call this point out, I'll put money up.

Hmu for a MM too while you're at it if you want

So hows that fsmash nerf treating you? Hopefully better than the complete neutering of finishing touch.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

So hows that fsmash nerf treating you? Hopefully better than the complete neutering of finishing touch.

lol

 

[BunbUn129]

It's so sad that a ton of people are going overboard with the nerfs. MK lost the early jank KO's, sure.

But whatever happened to the neutral game?

"Meta Knight has a lackluster neutral game," many people, including MK players, have said and continue to say. Don't forget he has one of the fastest dash attacks in the game, a frame 3 down tilt that is solid poke, combo starter, and tech-chase opener, a frame 6 forward tilt that works as a spacing tool against opponents who are afraid to shield and ones who love to approach from the air, one of the best dash grabs, a safe spacing and baiting move in his forward smash, a frame 4 down aerial, and a long-ranged forward aerial that is safe on shield. And all these options are boosted by a 4-frame jumpsquat, a fast 1.9 dashing speed, a decent 1.18 walking speed, the 3rd longest perfect pivot, and multiple jumps with borderline average air speed, along with a mobility option in Dimensional Cape.

And what about edge-guarding?

"Meta Knight's edge-guarding really isn't very special," I saw one say. Never mind that he has frame 7 back aerial that KO's at 90% offstage, a frame 6 neutral aerial that KO's at 100% offstage along with a lingering hitbox, a frame 9 forward aerial that has good range and KO's at 120% offstage, and a frame 4 semi-spike in his down aerial. And that is all complemented by a fantastic recovery, courtesy of 5 midair jumps and 3 reliable recovery specials.

And for those of you who say his combo game is far worse, remember:

You have here a character whose dash attack leads into all of his aerials, up smash, up tilt, Tornado, and his main KO move, Shuttle Loop, and 3 of his throws have similar combo potential. Racking up 20-30% has always been easy for Meta Knight. The Rufio combo is not what it once was, making MK's damage racking less consistent starting at roughly 50%. But dash attack -> uair -> Shuttle Loop gives a relatively easy 22%, and then down throw -> Shuttle Loop puts on 13%/19%, and while those do indeed stale his main finisher, MK was and is never forced to rely on Shuttle Loop to KO. Landing a grab is not very hard, and back throw does a nice 10% and sets up edge-guards, and the fact that he has a stock-cap in up throw means staling back throw isn't detrimental.

And ladder or no ladder, MK maintains one of the best KOing abilities:

Dash attack / forward throw -> Shuttle Loop is a good KO confirm, and down tilt opens up tech chases into Shuttle Loop and the Cape. Up aerial leads into Shuttle Loop at a large percent range. Forward smash is strong and safe, up smash is an effective anti-air at frame 8, and back and up throws work as stock-caps. And raw Shuttle Loop is a good KO move, let's not forget. And this is all coupled with his aforementioned edge-guarding prowess.

Finally, his disadvantage state:

With 5 midair jumps, a disjointed frame 4 down aerial, and the Cape as a mobility option, Meta Knight is a difficult character to juggle. And he is virtually untouchable offstage with one of the most flexible, most versatile recoveries.

....

Is Meta Knight worse than he was pre-patch? Yes, and without a doubt.

But is he no longer top 20? Is he no longer solo viable? Is he no longer viable, period? Has he lost all possibility of getting into top 8's? Did the up aerial nerf hit him as hard or even harder than Luigi and his down throw nerf?

No.

Anyone who says Meta Knight is "no longer top 20," "unviable," or "no longer capable of top 8" never knew how to play the character properly. These are the players who picked him up for the easy way out, to hide behind a ladder combo and excuse themselves from learning the other elements of gameplay, like neutral and edge-guarding.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's so sad that a ton of people are going overboard with the nerfs. MK lost the early jank KO's, sure.

But whatever happened to the neutral game?

"Meta Knight has a lackluster neutral game," many people, including MK players, have said and continue to say. Don't forget he has one of the fastest dash attacks in the game, a frame 3 down tilt that is solid poke, combo starter, and tech-chase opener, a frame 6 forward tilt that works as a spacing tool against opponents who are afraid to shield and ones who love to approach from the air, one of the best dash grabs, a safe spacing and baiting move in his forward smash, a frame 4 down aerial, and a long-ranged forward aerial that is safe on shield. And all these options are boosted by a 4-frame jumpsquat, a fast 1.9 dashing speed, a decent 1.18 walking speed, the 3rd longest perfect pivot, and multiple jumps with borderline average air speed, along with a mobility option in Dimensional Cape.

And what about edge-guarding?

"Meta Knight's edge-guarding really isn't very special," I saw one say. Never mind that he has frame 7 back aerial that KO's at 90% offstage, a frame 6 neutral aerial that KO's at 100% offstage along with a lingering hitbox, a frame 9 forward aerial that has good range and KO's at 120% offstage, and a frame 4 semi-spike in his down aerial. And that is all complemented by a fantastic recovery, courtesy of 5 midair jumps and 3 reliable recovery specials.

And for those of you who say his combo game is far worse, remember:

You have here a character whose dash attack leads into all of his aerials, up smash, up tilt, Tornado, and his main KO move, Shuttle Loop, and 3 of his throws have similar combo potential. Racking up 20-30% has always been easy for Meta Knight. The Rufio combo is not what it once was, making MK's damage racking less consistent starting at roughly 50%. But dash attack -> uair -> Shuttle Loop gives a relatively easy 22%, and then down throw -> Shuttle Loop puts on 13%/19%, and while those does indeed stale his main finisher, MK was and is never forced to rely on Shuttle Loop to KO. Landing a grab is not very hard, and back throw does a nice 10% and sets up edge-guards, and the fact that he has a stock-cap in up throw means staling back throw isn't detrimental.

And ladder or no ladder, MK maintains one of the best KOing abilities:

Dash attack / forward throw -> Shuttle Loop is a good KO confirm, and down tilt opens up tech chases into Shuttle Loop and the Cape. Up aerial leads into Shuttle Loop at a large percent range. Forward smash is strong and safe, up smash is an effective anti-air at frame 8, and back and up throws work as stock-caps. And raw Shuttle Loop is a good KO move, let's not forget. And this is all coupled with his aforementioned edge-guarding prowess.

Finally, his disadvantage state:

With 5 midair jumps, a disjointed frame 4 down aerial, and the Cape as a mobility option, Meta Knight is a difficult character to juggle. And he is virtually untouchable offstage with one of the most flexible, most versatile recoveries.

....

Is Meta Knight worse than he was pre-patch? Yes, and without a doubt.

But is he no longer top 20? Is he no longer solo viable? Is he no longer viable, period? Has he lost all possibility of getting into top 8's? Did the up aerial nerf hit him as hard or even harder than Luigi and his down throw nerf?

No.

Anyone who says Meta Knight is "no longer top 20," "unviable," or "no longer capable of top 8" never knew how to play the character properly. These are the players who picked him up for the easy way out, to hide behind a ladder combo and excuse themselves from learning the other elements of gameplay, like neutral and edge-guarding.

This pretty much sums up the situation perfectly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Can I have permission to copy and paste this for people who need proof that MK is still viable? With credit of course.

 

[BunbUn129]

This pretty much sums up the situation perfectly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Can I have permission to copy and paste this for people who need proof that MK is still viable? With credit of course.

I should've put that in the end. Yeah, if anyone says something plain dumb and exaggerates the nerfs, do me a favor and copy paste and whatever.

Don't forget to fix any spelling or whatever when you do.

 

[Vhaltz]

Honestly the nerf has probably just made my Meta Knight more patient and all around better.

One thing I'd add to the above is that he's a legitimately scary character when you get a lead and begin to play with the intent to timeout, since his 5 jumps and DC allow for lots of mixups with DC crossups, fastfall landings to reset jumps, retreating to ledge, general DC mixups, etc. When the timeout pressure is on his bait and punish game becomes so much stronger, and punishing whiffed chasing aerial attempts with fastfall dair, nair or even tornado/DC just tacks on that much more %.

I found this strategy to be particularly effective against Yoshi and Corrin players.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly the nerf has probably just made my Meta Knight more patient and all around better.

One thing I'd add to the above is that he's a legitimately scary character when you get a lead and begin to play with the intent to timeout, since his 5 jumps and DC allow for lots of mixups with DC crossups, fastfall landings to reset jumps, retreating to ledge, general DC mixups, etc. When the timeout pressure is on his bait and punish game becomes so much stronger, and punishing whiffed chasing aerial attempts with fastfall dair, nair or even tornado/DC just tacks on that much more %.

I found this strategy to be particularly effective against Yoshi and Corrin players.

That is just how the match ups with those two work. Yoshi has poor approach tools and so does Corrin, on top of being slow.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

If he was say... Jiggs, who is terrible in pretty much every way

This one sentence really irks me. Please explain yourself in more detail and why you think this way.

 

[C0rvus]

She's the worst character in the game. There is little else to say, really.

 

[Amadeus9]

This one sentence really irks me. Please explain yourself in more detail and why you think this way.

Forget moves being unsafe on shield, jiggs moves are literally unsafe on HIT

 

[BunbUn129]

This one sentence really irks me. Please explain yourself in more detail and why you think this way.

Any negative trait you could give to a character, Jiggs has it.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

She's the worst character in the game. There is little else to say, really.

Debatable She does fairly well against the top tiers (except for metaknight he...cuts) something that cannot be said about characters such as Zelda or Ganon

Any negative trait you could give to a character, Jiggs has it.

A strong finisher. high priority long lasting aerials. Fast aerial speed and acceleration. multiple jumps. fast disjointed jab. combos into a finisher. top tier taunts etc.
I just want people to give credit where credit is due.

 

[C0rvus]

That's... not really true at all. I don't dislike Jigglypuff or have any bias against her, in fact I mained her in tournament for about a month. Once you learn the matchup, she has very few options and in many cases doesn't have a realistic chance of winning a high level match against a knowledgeable player.

The best part about Jiggs is her hat game, which is incredibly potent. Unrivaled, even.

 

[Amadeus9]

jiggs is trash, leave scrub

 

[BunbUn129]

Debatable She does fairly well against the top tiers (except for metaknight he...cuts) something that cannot be said about characters such as Zelda or Ganon

A strong finisher. high priority long lasting aerials. Fast aerial speed and acceleration. multiple jumps. fast disjointed jab. combos into a finisher. top tier taunts etc.
I just want people to give credit where credit is due.

Yes, Jiggs has some good tools--but like , having a strong finisher (two counting both Rest and bair) and a good jab doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if a character gets outneutraled by the whole cast.

And even then, Jiggs' "good" tools are hampered by significant issues: Rest is ultra-committal due to ending lag, bair is frame 12 and has only 2 active frames, and her poor grounded mobility forces her to be airborne (and being in the air means always committing in some way).

Furthermore, her aerial mobility is offset by her fastest aerial being only frame 6; compare that to (frame 2 lol) and (frame 3) and (frame 4) and (frame 5). And then Jiggs has slightly above average landing lag (15,15,18,15,30), impairing her aerial approach, though this is partially compensated by favorable auto-cancel windows.

Jiggs' air game is not bad; it's very good, but it falls short considering she's supposedly designed to be Queen of the Air. She has all the traits of a terrible character: generally slow frame data, ground speed and poor reach, all of which combine for a non-existent neutral game, moves that are unsafe on hit, which hurts her combo game, and lackluster KOing ability, all compounded by the worst endurance in the game.

And her few strengths are hindered by their own flaws: aerial mobility due to the aforementioned points, and her recovery, while very good, is exploitable considering she lacks an up special recovery, and this strength is negated by her frailty.

Basically, Jigglypuff is plagued by a heap of issues, flawed advantages, and the lack of a "complete" strength.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

jiggs is trash, leave scrub

Don't you mean Jiggs is Tr4sh? (insurance: this is in reference to the fact that you are talking about Jigglypuff being and I quote"Trash", but exclusively the version found in Sm4sh and I am in no way suggesting that my use of this term Tr4sh is for offensive behaviour towards the game or associated community in question)
I won't leave, MK is too neat

Yes, Jiggs has some good tools--but like , having a strong finisher (two counting both Rest and bair) and a good jab doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things if a character gets outneutraled by the whole cast.

And even then, Jiggs' "good" tools are hampered by significant issues: Rest is ultra-committal due to ending lag, bair is frame 12 and has only 2 active frames, and her poor grounded mobility forces her to be airborne (and being in the air means always committing in some way).

Furthermore, her aerial mobility is offset by her fastest aerial being only frame 6; compare that to (frame 2 lol) and (frame 3) and (frame 4) and (frame 5). And then Jiggs has slightly above average landing lag (15,15,18,15,30), impairing her aerial approach, though this is partially compensated by favorable auto-cancel windows.

Jiggs' air game is not bad; it's very good, but it falls short considering she's supposedly designed to be Queen of the Air. She has all the traits of a terrible character: generally slow frame data, ground speed and poor reach, all of which combine for a non-existent neutral game, moves that are unsafe on hit, which hurts her combo game, and lackluster KOing ability, all compounded by the worst endurance in the game.

And her few strengths are hindered by their own flaws: aerial mobility due to the aforementioned points, and her recovery, while very good, is exploitable considering she lacks an up special recovery, and this strength is negated by her frailty.

Basically, Jigglypuff is plagued by a heap of issues, flawed advantages, and the lack of a "complete" strength.

I also forgot to mention her dash attack/saving grace. It is fast, kills, has a long lasting hitbox and has trample property, but regarding the problem with having our quickest aerial come out in 6 frames (which is n-air) it is pretty well known that Puffs generally use this move in neutral due to how long it lasts and from how potent it is overall. And moves are generally only unsafe on hit if you have no idea how to properly space the attacks...or if it is side tilt at low %
Thank you for the lengthy and generally correct response.

 

[Magnemite]

but jigglypuff has good edgeguarding!!! clearly the worst character can't have any positive traits, right?

seriously why did they think it was a good idea to make the lightest character so horrible at killing, especially when rage is a thing?

 

[iVoltage]

Forget moves being unsafe on shield, jiggs moves are literally unsafe on HIT

This gave me a chuckle, I'm stealing that.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

On another note do you guys think that there will be any more nerfs/buffs for Metaknight or are they pretty much done tweaking him?

 

[iVoltage]

On another note do you guys think that there will be any more nerfs/buffs for Metaknight or are they pretty much done tweaking him?

We might get a tiny bit of a compensation buff like they gave Luigi (idr what the exact buffs were probably Smash attacks) which would be nice. Something like a dsmash buff to make it worth using.

 

[BunbUn129]

On another note do you guys think that there will be any more nerfs/buffs for Metaknight or are they pretty much done tweaking him?

Considering they buffed after nerfing him, there's a good chance will get buffs in 1.1.6 IF patches aren't over, especially when the devs actually buffed his fair in the same patch they nerfed him (which shows they aren't mindlessly nerfing characters).

It largely depends on how MK performs in the coming months.

Edit: just FYI, my buff wish list:

dair: lag 22->18, 6% -> 8%, range increased
fair: lag 16->14
dsmash: range increased, 7%/10%->8%/11%
usmash: 9%->10%, range increased to hit grounded opponents
d tilt: hitbox fixed

 

[Jamurai]

Puff is quite clearly a joke character by design and has been since the dawn of Smash. Indicators being most of her specials, her custom moves, weight, and interesting shield break mechanic. I'm not surprised by the fact that they aren't actively making her more competitively viable, she is not intended to be.

 

[Xandercosm]

Considering they buffed after nerfing him, there's a good chance will get buffs in 1.1.6 IF patches aren't over, especially when the devs actually buffed his fair in the same patch they nerfed him (which shows they aren't mindlessly nerfing characters).

It largely depends on how MK performs in the coming months.

Edit: just FYI, my buff wish list:

dair: lag 22->18, 6% -> 8%, range increased
fair: lag 16->14
dsmash: range increased, 7%/10%->8%/11%
usmash: 9%->10%, range increased to hit grounded opponents
d tilt: hitbox fixed

I would be absolutely ecstatic if we got those buffs. That right there could entirely make up for what MK lost. Hopefully they wise up and give him at least a few of those. Especially fixing the hitboxes on D-tilt and U-smash. That would be awesome!

 

[Amadeus9]

MK likely isnt going to be getting anything because mk mains keep winning ****.

(if id ask of anything tho, it would be for uair's hitbox to cover the whole sword, so that it could be used as a landing aerial, and maybe a slightly longer dtilt)

(oh and i would like to be rid of mks disgusting 1.5 sdi multiplier)