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Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

Steelballray

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Uh, no. Sorry.
I could go on and elaborate, but last time it ended up as a fest of "BUT TOP PLAYERS SAID SO" when any of us can make a list of the BS top players have said before. Dabuz said Rosa loses to Fox when he lost to Larry at Pound, you gonna take that ****?

But to counter argue myself, none other than me play such an option select-heavy Rosalina ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-E0IesLSU ), so the regular MU you all are accustomed with is probably VERY different from the one I play.
 
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iVoltage

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I could go on and elaborate, but last time it ended up as a fest of "BUT TOP PLAYERS SAID SO" when any of us can make a list of the BS top players have said before. Dabuz said Rosa loses to Fox when he lost to Larry at Pound, you gonna take that ****?

But to counter argue myself, none other than me play such an option select-heavy Rosalina, so the regular MU you all are accustomed with is probably VERY different from the one I play.
What are you even talking about
 

Amadeus9

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I could go on and elaborate, but last time it ended up as a fest of "BUT TOP PLAYERS SAID SO" when any of us can make a list of the BS top players have said before. Dabuz said Rosa loses to Fox when he lost to Larry at Pound, you gonna take that ****?

But to counter argue myself, none other than me play such an option select-heavy Rosalina ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-E0IesLSU ), so the regular MU you all are accustomed with is probably VERY different from the one I play.
Wtf? We said mk won this mu back when rosa's thought they won 70-30. Don't pull that lmao.

And I'm very happy for you, that you have such a unique experience with Rosa. I'm sure that is very beneficial.
 

Twiranitar

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Meta Knight's advantage on the matchup does not come only in the form of the stairway (god bless) but more so in how easily we can kill Luma at very low percents. DA, F-tilt, F-air (buffed, now it's safer) and some more moves are excellent options to get rid of Luma, gain control of the match and then engage onto Rosalina with our excellent punish game on her.
Sure, sure.
You are getting heated up about this. How about we let this cool down and get back at it later?
 

Steelballray

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"Don't listen to top players, form your own opinion!"

"Wtf, why are you forming your own opinion? Idiot!"

Please just leave.
Well, if anyone has been getting offended and acted disrespectful over others having different experiences and forming different opinions it's definitely you.
 

Xandercosm

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Well, if anyone has been getting offended and acted disrespectful over others having different experiences and forming different opinions it's definitely you.
He does this all the time. I think he's like some entitled kid who gets his kicks from harassing people on the internet or something. Don't worry.

He's on literally all day doing this stuff to people all over Smashboards. Just ignore him.
 
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Ghostbone

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If you want to actually explain how Rosa beats MK you're gonna have to say more than "Trust me guys option selects are OP Dabuz is just a pleb who doesn't use them"
 

C0rvus

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Damn, what's with all the anger and butthurt from people in here? Did something get in peoples' cereal this morning? Mommy didn't hug you enough when you were a kid? People disagree with your opinions and it turns immediately into flinging insults. Get that **** out of here.

"y-you must be mad! Haha g-got you, didn't I?" It's sad.

Meta Knight has a very strong claim to beating Rosalina by a non-trivial amount. Results reflect this at nearly all levels of play. Theory backs this up soundly (did you know you can still destroy Rosa with up air combos? Even post nerf it works pretty consistently.) Do down smash options selects or whatever prevent half of MK or Cloud's moves from neutralizing Luma? Does fancy tech get Rosalina back to the ground from getting dash attacked? Come on.

We could've had a decent discussion perhaps, about this unique Rosalina style and how it might affect the MU. But that's out the window lol. Everyone's gotta be a smarmy jackass as soon as they get disagreed with.
 
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Steelballray

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If you want to actually explain how Rosa beats MK you're gonna have to say more than "Trust me guys option selects are OP Dabuz is just a pleb who doesn't use them"
Well, first of all we get zoned out really hard. Rosalina herself even without Luma has insane priority on everything. Even Drill Rush, a move intended to beat stuff, can be beaten with bair. Luma autocancels leave you no opening (trying to DA will cause MK to be in that weird attack clanking animation just long enough to get grabbed) lest you're going to OS f-tilt (and in which case Luma dies, hooray!) Trading in the air is also super difficult. Nair has an obnoxious hitbox and is very safe. Spammed bair (aka what dabuz did at G3 GF) cover a huge space and beating it like I mentioned is a dream. Kill power is only a strong point for MK in very little %s and if the stairway chance is missed Luma will kill way better than we do (dair and usmash) MK is bad at getting out of juggles due to low horizontal airspeed and we can't counter attack and juggle back if we get out due to her dair reaching a mile after where MK's uair reach. Even edgeguarding, something MK does well with bair and nair to score early kills, Rosa can be just as deadly with it, as dair flat out beat Shuttle Loop (very rarely they trade) and Luma's dair can score kills as early as 60% if it hits. (I know recoveries can be mixed, but sometimes you NEED to SL)


Notes: stairway at times can be extremely dangerous. Dying at 0% is very possible if Luma gets the one frame window it needs to attack.

MK can be edgeguarded the same way as Fox and Falco, rapid jab Luma cannot be beaten with anything short of SideB, so if you have to recover upward, and they have the time to setup, prepare to cry, and no, you cannot DC to get around that.

I generally think a character has to have a good chance at trading with Rosalina to be able to beat her. Mewtwo, from my short time playing him the past few weeks, does certain things better, d-tilt knockback Luma at 0 health and its actually a safe move unlike MKs f-tilt and dash attack , fair KILL Luma straightup and is also safe. and his uair can trade with Rosa's dair even. He has an amazing airdodge (frame two) but his DJ being trash means he won't be counter juggling anything lol.

Cloud would have a chance at beating Rosa but literally a random Nair is all she need to edgeguard him. (This is not Rosa spesfic, but people really cry too much about "having to approach" Cloud)
 

Jamurai

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"Priority" doesn't really exist in this game, what you mean is Rosa has good disjoints which beat our moves when spaced correctly. Which is definitely something which can be worked around, ie. why are you trying to air-to-air against her. MK's burst mobility seems more than good enough to whiff punish a Rosalina Bair. If they're spamming it you should be able to perfect shield it and then punish easily.

Luma is strong of course (although not quite as terrifying as you imply imo) but we have a ridiculously good kit for getting rid of her, which is the most major reason why we win this matchup. She should be out of the game for more time than she's in it. DA (cross that **** up so it's safe!!!), Fair, strong Nair, Ftilt, and even god damn Drill Rush are all really effective and send Luma flying. Going for Luma a lot can be predictable of course but this contributes to mind games, bait Rosa to attempt a punish on your Luma attack and go for her instead, etc. Ito does this quite well in the MU iirc.

MK is reeeeeeeaaaally not bad at getting out of juggles; six jumps, a teleport, a fast fall speed and three decent landing aerials give you more than enough mixups to land safely. If you're getting juggled all day you're being predictable frankly. Very few characters, if any, can cover all of MK's options at once. Same situation with recovering tbh. Also Luma doesn't exceed our kill power with two moves, especially considering how big and light Rosa is. Shuttle Loop, DCape, and Usmash all wreck her for starters. Her recovery is pretty free for edgeguarding purposes and the Uair combo lives on in this MU. If you're proficient at landing these things, any Rosa player should be scared of you.

Ito and Aba play this MU well, watch their sets vs Falln and Kirihara respectively.

(Couple of notes: Luma's Uair comes out in three frames. Also MK's airdodge is frame 2 as well and has six frames of recovery which is only one more than M2's. The latter's just looks more impressive because he disappears and he has better air speed.)
 

Krysco

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Huh, I ditch the character and only miss out on 5-6 pages, including the lovely post-patch flip outs. Suppose it remains true that Skype and more likely Discord nowadays kills these kinda threads.

Anyways, just figured I'd drop back in to see what was being discussed here since I used to main the character. Dropped him once I saw how prominent the ladder combo was. Didn't wanna bother learning that crap and didn't wanna half-ass a character I'm maining either. Recently got back into using him a bit but not maining him. Still indecisive but I've been focusing on :4robinf::4mewtwo::4rob: and a bit of:4cloud: although the latter's easy play, easy win playstyle is a turn off for me.

I guess to be a bit on topic, doesn't priority exist? People tend to mistake what it means but it technically does exist through damage. Like, MK ftilt doesn't do enough damage to stop a Ganon fsmash from hitting him, assuming the two moves collide at the same time. Something like an 8 or 9% threshold. Then you've got stuff like Falco lasers that are often deemed to have transcendent priority. The term is thrown around a lot and in the sense I'm thinking of, it does exist, for grounded moves anyways. Aerial moves never clank or get outbeat so yeah, Rosa has good aerial 'priority' because she has a long body and creates mini galaxies and saturn rings that make touching her difficult.
 

BunbUn129

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Huh, I ditch the character and only miss out on 5-6 pages, including the lovely post-patch flip outs. Suppose it remains true that Skype and more likely Discord nowadays kills these kinda threads.

Anyways, just figured I'd drop back in to see what was being discussed here since I used to main the character. Dropped him once I saw how prominent the ladder combo was. Didn't wanna bother learning that crap and didn't wanna half-*** a character I'm maining either. Recently got back into using him a bit but not maining him. Still indecisive but I've been focusing on :4robinf::4mewtwo::4rob: and a bit of:4cloud: although the latter's easy play, easy win playstyle is a turn off for me.

I guess to be a bit on topic, doesn't priority exist? People tend to mistake what it means but it technically does exist through damage. Like, MK ftilt doesn't do enough damage to stop a Ganon fsmash from hitting him, assuming the two moves collide at the same time. Something like an 8 or 9% threshold. Then you've got stuff like Falco lasers that are often deemed to have transcendent priority. The term is thrown around a lot and in the sense I'm thinking of, it does exist, for grounded moves anyways. Aerial moves never clank or get outbeat so yeah, Rosa has good aerial 'priority' because she has a long body and creates mini galaxies and saturn rings that make touching her difficult.
The thing is with priority, we often talk about it as though it's a specific characteristic of a move, when it's something that pertains to the way moves interact. Taking this into account, people naturally assign "low" or "high" priority to a move based on how often it beats out other hitboxes, and here the problems and misconceptions arise and spread when an uninformed player reads such discussions and is led to believe priority is a built-in property of every move.

Transcendent priority, on the other hand, is a property actually encoded into a move. Such hitboxes will never clank (which is a double-edge sword).

So, yes, priority exists, but a lot of people have understood it the wrong way.
 

Krysco

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The thing is with priority, we often talk about it as though it's a specific characteristic of a move, when it's something that pertains to the way moves interact. Taking this into account, people naturally assign "low" or "high" priority to a move based on how often it beats out other hitboxes, and here the problems and misconceptions arise and spread when an uninformed player reads such discussions and is led to believe priority is a built-in property of every move.

Transcendent priority, on the other hand, is a property actually encoded into a move. Such hitboxes will never clank (which is a double-edge sword).

So, yes, priority exists, but a lot of people have understood it the wrong way.
Yeah, I've noticed that. It's one of many terms that just mucks up things for uninformed players. Like, I lurked this site back in the Brawl days and I saw the term IASA thrown around a lot and I quickly understood what it meant. Come Sm4sh and no one says IASA but instead faf and I had no idea what the term meant at first when it means the same thing as IASA.

I just wanted to clarify since the term is thrown around for a reason and Jamurai's post made it sound like it doesn't truly exist, though I do understand what he meant.
 

Jamurai

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Ya so this board is pretty much dead. But anyways, biiiig UK national happening this weekend in London called Albion, @Schilt and I are gonna be repping the MK. Jband is going too, but he's been chattin bout maining Diddy recently so don't expect too much borb action from him.

I believe the stream is twitch.tv/datteamsmash if you wanna cheer us on.
 

ItoI6

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hey can anyone test at what percents upair true combos into footstool? just have the other character mash nair to see if it does
 

Ulevo

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hey can anyone test at what percents upair true combos into footstool? just have the other character mash nair to see if it does
Assuming it is not at 0 due to jumps coming out on F1, it will vary depending on character. For instance the % up air combos into fast fall back air for Mario is 18%, while for Marth it is 16%. I know this does not answer your question directly but given this information and that back air is 6 frames slower than a double jump, I would assume it likely works at any % range.
 
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Ultinarok

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Meta wins the Rosa match-up. Abadango humiliating the likes of Dabuz is pretty solid proof. MK is just too aggressive for Rosa to keep out, and her light weight and large size make her hopelessly vulnerable to MK's best tools. He's probably her worst match-up, and even if some Rosa tech is found to bypass some of her vulnerabilities, she still dies at 60% off the top from a uair -> Shuttle combo.

No one needs to belittle one another. Both of these fighters are viable. MK just wins the match-up.
 

Jamurai

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For those who still lurk this board and are not aware, MK Leo is finally heading to a stacked foreign tourney this weekend, it being Get On My Level in Canada. It's going to be very interesting to see how he does, let's cheer him on and hope he doesn't get Nairo in bracket like the seeding prediction says he should.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Hey guys.

Just letting you know that I am still around. I have been taking a bit of a hiatus from Smash to take care of some real life stuff. I have entered almost no events this season. I did however enter Get On My Level this weekend. I did "eh" in singles (65th I think out of like 500), but did great in doubles (7th out of 109). Seriously, why I am so much better in doubles lmao.

Anyway, I will be returning to tournaments and the scene full time sometime in late June/early July. During this break, I will be labbing the **** out of the character again. I learned a lot from watching Leo and spending some time with Ulevo as well. I have a LOT of ideas and concepts, I'm ready to implement. Some of you know that I'm still alive because of the Discord but I figured I would post here. I'm still here and I will always be playing :4metaknight:. Super excited for the future. <3
 
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IcantWin

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Name: Baroness (Domenic)
Location: Connecticut
Talents: Illustration, writing, interior design.
Likes: Metroid series, sweet potato roll sushi, music, science fiction.
Dislikes: Conservative train of thought, racism, ignorance, frame 3 nairs.
Goals: Finish college (again). Become a better known player. Grow my local smash 4 scene.
Other facts: Juvenile (Type 1) Diabetic since age of 5. I hope to publish a book and get married at some point in life. Notable Placings: 33rd @ New Fish (oo115) My John? Awake for 31 hours straight, we'll do better next time boys. 6th and 9th on CT PR, slowly declining, our scene getting mad good.

Howdy, long time lurker out of his cave to finally introduce myself. Playing since 64, got serious with melee after consulting this forum back in it's baby days (just look at how old this account is, and there are others much older :O). Played a lot of Falcon and MK at the start of Smash 4 but didn't buy a wii u until 5 months after the games release since I was doing well at locals having only a little 3DS practice.

CT has long been considered "Free" for the powerhouses like Tri-state and northern/eastern New England (Marss and Pugwest being from there), but our community has flourished in time. Have been assisting as a fill in TO but a newer venue has opened and our monthlies have brought in wonderful players like Dabuz, Vinnie, Marss, Mr. E, and Raptor. A lot of our top player base is starting to place top 12 at regionals and nationals we only hope to get better from there.

As for me? I'll be aiming to prove myself among the ranks of top Meta Knight players as time goes on, we're already halfway there. Super open minded, always down to talk or give advice where it's wanted.

~~~ Baroness
 
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Phreshoatmeal

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Another long time lurker, Oatmeal here, best mk in ny (and maybe NE but dont travel much atm). I'd like to share with you guys a new tech i've discovered. If you can dthrow at the ledge on smashville when they're at 70 or so, and they land on the platform off stage, you can get a down b confirm for the kill. I havent labbed it extensively but i think it should also work if they tech in place or away. I also dont know the threshhold for when they can just jump out. This might seem situational but trust me, this happens a lot more often than youd think and its easy to engineer. Thoughts? The kill confirm is at the end of the video. This was a real match of course.
 

ぱみゅ

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It isn't really a confirm, but it's nice to learn more options on missed techs.
:196:
 

Amadeus9

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I felt this deserved its own post, but I'm posting it here so frequenters will get pinged for it.
 

nicktiger217

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Dislikes: Disrespectful People, Feeling Lonely
Goals: To become a better player and a valid opponent.
Other facts: No Practice Partner, Also Main Marth, Can't Change Username.
 

BunbUn129

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So I've been thinking about fair and it's more intricate uses in damage racking. Sadly I don't have a test partner so I'd really like it if someone else can test these set-ups.

Up air -> fair isn't a true combo until mid-percents. However, at lower percents when it can be air dodged out of, it seems to create a nice trap situation. These set-ups use FF fair: fair's auto-link was removed in 1.0.4 so if you FF the opponent should always fall out before the 3rd hit, but because of the more recent fair buff you may be able to take advantage of that.

Dash attack -> up air -> FF fair (I'll explain these assuming they're reliable):
-if the opponent air dodges after up air, MK can punish the ending and/or landing lag of the air dodge with d tilt, f tilt, grab, up tilt, etc.
-if the opponent jumps, they get hit by fair; because MK FF'ed fair they only get hit by fair 1 and 2. The first two hits of fair have a tendency to put them right behind MK. In this case MK gets turnaround f tilt, up tilt, etc.

Problems I can see with these potentially useful set-ups is because fair is frame 9 characters should be able to mash an aerial to break it, and you may be able to jump in the second scenario after fair 1 and 2 to avoid any follow-ups, so they may only work as mix-ups. Of course, the effectiveness of these traps will vary according to the opponent's attributes, most importantly their fall speed: I imagine that if they are reliable they would only be reliable on fast-fallers.

Up air -> nair is a true combo and can also lead into a dash attack or SL at lower percents (not true combos of course), so you might wonder why use fair when it's slower and deals less damage?

Again, assuming these traps are reliable at least as a mix-up, you could possibly get DA -> up air -> FF fair (opponent air dodges) -> d throw -> DA (DI away on d throw) -> grounded up b, for ~33%, which deals 5% more than Tornado combos and 20% more than common up smash follow-ups.

I've seen Leo and Ito do up air -> FF fair. Leo did it on False's Sheik at GOML and iirc he get a grab after the FF fair. Ito got nothing after Xzex's Bayo Bat Within'ed out.

Some proper labbing from someone with a partner would be appreciated.
 
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busken

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Nov 28, 2014
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its been awhile
anyway, im having alot of trouble with the robin mu, and I guess just dealing with non-grabbable projectiles as well. feel like robin stuffs all of my approachs and forces me to defensive options way to much, which gets really annoying b/c getting grabbed at 90 means death most likely, and then nosfaratu takes away progress. Any insight?
 

Sol0ke

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Respect his projectiles. Despite his frame data, if you don't be careful around his tome magic, you'll have a rough time. But once you do that, it shouldn't be too difficult to fight him/her otherwise. Also, remember that they can throw the tome book/Levin sword when they're out of uses.

My two cents, haven't really fought too many Robins, but this is what I have in mind when I face a Robin.
 

C0rvus

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Idk how you're getting Nosferatu'd, but remember to mash to get out of that faster.

Try your best to not get hit by Arcthunder, or you're pretty much getting grabbed and eating ****. Arcfire can be escaped with SDI and is laggy so if your opponent likes to use it in neutral, roll behind them and do whatever you want. Robin is honestly a pretty linear character so there's not much else I can think to say. Obviously, try your best to trash him offstage, too.

That's all I got. It can be hard because he can kill quite early and consistently if he's getting grabs.
 

BunbUn129

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So I went back and watched the Leo vs False set at GOML, to see Leo's usage of FF fair. When Sheik was at 20%, Leo did d tilt, which tripped, into DA, up air, FF fair 1 and 2. He then shielded False's falling aerial and grabbed, continuing the string with a d throw into an up air chain, finishing with an offstage nair that almost KO'ed. In total that was 45%.

FF fair is a scary mix-up, and is potentially as devastating as FF bair locks. Up air -> FF bair into d tilt locks is not true and purely a mix-up, and long ago it became common-place for MK's to incorporate it into their punish game, especially back when it led into early KO's. I think the next step in improving his punish game--or rather revitalizing it--is through exploring what can be done with forward air.

On light fast-fallers at 0%, you can d throw, if they DI away -> tipper DA -> FH up air -> FF fair 1 and 2 -> read their option and grab into d throw -> up air -> up b, for a total of 43%, for example. While Tornado combos are simpler for a high 29%, someone who knows the MU will DI away/down-away to avoid the Tornado, while in those cases DA will cover that DI angle, and for possibly ~10% more damage.

The opponent can air dodge up air -> fair at that percent, but you can still FF and continue the string, though it's dependent on whether or not they suffer air dodge landing lag. You may want to shield after the fair landing lag in case they opt to land with an aerial, and then grab. MK can d throw -> FF fair 1 and 2 as a true set-up, but he cannot land 1 and 2 without getting the last hit if they DI away on d throw.

Such set-ups def aren't reliable but they are useful to keep in mind as mix-ups, especially with how they're still relatively new and underutilized.
 
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BunbUn129

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So I played friendlies today against a Kirby main and Dr. Mario main.

SH up air and FF fair mix-ups are def quite legit. I pulled these traps off at ~5 different instances during the session and I got at least 25% each time. These traps work well if they DI d throw properly expecting a Tornado, meaning MK can rack up huge damage against all DI angles from d throw.
 

metanight1311

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I just made a thread focused on the step dash. So if you want to discuss more Twiranitar then head there.
 
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