Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Exdeath]

I've beaten every Rosalina that that I've ever played with Diddy and no one who is in my vicinity is willing to learn her in order for me to learn it with a different character. I'll theorycraft it and work on it in the future, but in the meantime I believe that it's inherently more valuable to stick to what you know gets it done.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Alright so quick question:

Does anyone else listen to music when they play in tournament? If so, what do you listen to. I guess I'm just curious. I tend to listen to hip-hop instrumentals and jungle/drum and bass. Lately I've been banging this album/group out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSHTEH1kT1A

I just like seeing what works for others.

 

[Dooms]

quote

I'm seriously willing to work through this with you on wifi anytime. I know I'm not the best custom Villager, but I really want to help with this before evo so you can get a stronger grip on the matchup as a whole. Same goes for Fye (even though I don't think you're going to evo and I don't think you have a custom Villager player in your area?) and any other MK that feels like they have issues with this MU. We can play test and try to help you find a secondary that works if you want.

I wish MK had a solution against this, but the more I play against Katakiri, the more I start to think that you just have to be a severely stronger player than the Villager to do work. Katakiri is in general a stronger player than I am (same with Fye when I played him), but the fact that trip sapling and exploding balloons take away so many options from MK just makes it way too difficult.

 

[Qazoo306]

Alright so quick question:

Does anyone else listen to music when they play in tournament? If so, what do you listen to. I guess I'm just curious. I tend to listen to hip-hop instrumentals and jungle/drum and bass. Lately I've been banging this album/group out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSHTEH1kT1A

I just like seeing what works for others.

I listened to music once. I like listening to rhythmic electronic music. I don't think the music should be too fast though, because the game is generally slower paced. Just my .02$

 

[warionumbah2]

That's why customs gotta go after EVO, there's way more chars getting invalidated than default. +1 to default meta, praying EVO goes badly.. nah it'll go badly either way.

@ ZTD | TECHnology downloading that ty. I listen to SF3 music(Jazzy NYC 3rd strike,3rd strike arranged version, 2nd impact and Latin mix) when i wanna focus, anything fast kills my flow cuz this games slow af. ugh

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah I have to agree that slower pace, calm beats really do it for me. Nujabes is another artist I rely on for tournament soundtrack.

 

[warionumbah2]

Nujabes is another one i listen to daily. World without words and Transcendence puts me into a focus state. I love it!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

My dude, I am right there with you haha

 

[W.A.C.]

Maybe diddy kong is still good and people are just being overly sensitive?

ZeRo ended up using Shiek for the entirety of top 8. MVD's Diddy Kong achieved impressive results though.

If people nerfed my favorite character I would be sensitive. Bowsercide had a good run. **** Magicant.

Man, bowsercides were the most fun aspect to that character in the original 3DS version. Really sucks that got nerfed. ****ing whiny casuals.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ ItoI6 Do people ever cheer for you anymore? Everyone treats you like Leffen lol. xD

 

[ItoI6]

people never really cheered for me. a part of it is my personality irl, a part of it is people want to see upsets.

there was a couple of people in the crowd that screamed every time trevonte who was camping using CUSTOM SHEIK with piercing needles did something basic like fthrow bouncing fish...people were yelling obscenities at me the whole time. my nerves were totally shot during and after wf, i had been awake since 4am that day, and i had drank like 3 cans of coke right before we started. i felt so tired after i won i had to immediately leave or im not sure i couldve made the 45 minute drive back.

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=61160e7c4260e5647bac25ad1c768474&oe=5624E2B8

heres the new pr for norcal

 

[Ghidorah14]

ZeRo ended up using Shiek for the entirety of top 8.

This is something I dont get.

Who cares if zero didnt use diddy? Who cares if zero drops diddy? It doesnt mean the character isnt good anymore, it just means that when there's money on the line, zero would prefer to use another character if he feels they have a better chance of winning.

I sure wish I could have the luxury of saying ANY of my mains were lower-high tier.

 

[Amadeus9]

Don't let it get you down, we're all cheering for you here

I like listening to Odesza and similar when I play. Mostly Odesza tho. Listening to them gets me in the zone.

 

[Katakiri]

I'm seriously willing to work through this with you on wifi anytime. I know I'm not the best custom Villager, but I really want to help with this before evo so you can get a stronger grip on the matchup as a whole. Same goes for Fye (even though I don't think you're going to evo and I don't think you have a custom Villager player in your area?) and any other MK that feels like they have issues with this MU. We can play test and try to help you find a secondary that works if you want.

I wish MK had a solution against this, but the more I play against Katakiri, the more I start to think that you just have to be a severely stronger player than the Villager to do work. Katakiri is in general a stronger player than I am (same with Fye when I played him), but the fact that trip sapling and exploding balloons take away so many options from MK just makes it way too difficult.

I'll take you up on that offer sometime this week.
I have a lot of pocket characters so we'll find something I can at least go even with.

 

[warionumbah2]

Not gonna lie i would've choked, never had a crowd act like that before. Custom Sheik is so polarizing, i play campy default sheiks pretty regularly and i can handle it but the shield pressure electro needles do is. Unfair.

I have a strong will(in default) but the customs were dumb, the crowd was just- no comment and overall seeing Sheik WALK away is really demoralizing cuz you know you can't do anything about it. Its like "ok i can't beat you legit,peace out".

Honestly its cringy af to watch, i knew you won before watching but Jesus christ i hate that meta. Hammer spin dash aids Sonic in his camp game and Sheiks new needles and new grenade is impossible.

Next time bring headphones and plug it into the gamepad, block them out like Ama said MK boards are cheering for you(as well as the group cheering for you lol).


Ayyy Katakiri rocking that Gakacta knight avy, he looks like a sissy there tho...

 

[hydrobatmann]

ode:
Name: Eltiti
Location: Mexico
Talentslay videogames
Likes: Smash, food, sports, videogames
Dislikes:
Goals: Become an expert player on Sm4sh
Other facts: I like to play Retro gams and I like to collect videogames

 

[Ras99]

Not gonna lie i would've choked, never had a crowd act like that before. Custom Sheik is so polarizing, i play campy default sheiks pretty regularly and i can handle it but the shield pressure electro needles do is. Unfair.

I have a strong will(in default) but the customs were dumb, the crowd was just- no comment and overall seeing Sheik WALK away is really demoralizing cuz you know you can't do anything about it. Its like "ok i can't beat you legit,peace out".

Honestly its cringy af to watch, i knew you won before watching but Jesus christ i hate that meta. Hammer spin dash aids Sonic in his camp game and Sheiks new needles and new grenade is impossible.

Next time bring headphones and plug it into the gamepad, block them out like Ama said MK boards are cheering for you(as well as the group cheering for you lol).


Ayyy Katakiri rocking that Gakacta knight avy, he looks like a sissy there tho...

And that's why i hate customs bro xD

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

people never really cheered for me. a part of it is my personality irl, a part of it is people want to see upsets.

there was a couple of people in the crowd that screamed every time trevonte who was camping using CUSTOM SHEIK with piercing needles did something basic like fthrow bouncing fish...people were yelling obscenities at me the whole time. my nerves were totally shot during and after wf, i had been awake since 4am that day, and i had drank like 3 cans of coke right before we started. i felt so tired after i won i had to immediately leave or im not sure i couldve made the 45 minute drive back.

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=61160e7c4260e5647bac25ad1c768474&oe=5624E2B8

heres the new pr for norcal

Congrats on 1st!

And yeah the crowds here in MI are worse than that.... And this is at every event I go to. MFs just get hype for no reason whatsoever. That's why I consider headphones ESSENTIAL to my game play. I definitely would choked in your case if I wasn't wearing my studio headphones lol.

Anyway, you've always got support right here on these forums. I be cheering loud as **** when I see your sets on stream.

 

[warionumbah2]

But tech it wasn't hype tho, its like they tried to put Ito off his game(and it worked a little).

Someone screamed "punch him in the ****" and "time him out". And as Ito said they were getting hype over bread and butter moves, fair strings that MK isn't scared of due to low damage output and Sheik can't convert it to an edgeguard cause we use MK.

Glad Ito won, but he needs headphones now. Like some dr dre headphones or something.

And that's why i hate customs bro xD

lrn 2 4dapt - said custom supporter

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm telling you that crowd pales in comparison to what you deal with in MI rofl. They do the same **** but worse. It's so dumb. But yeah I hear you it wasn't actually hype... Just dumb.

 

[Katakiri]

I'm telling you that crowd pales in comparison to what you deal with in MI rofl. They do the same **** but worse. It's so dumb. But yeah I hear you it wasn't actually hype... Just dumb.

Can confirm. MI crowds are savage.
My MK could zero death someone and get no love, I mean it wouldn't even shut them up. But MI Toon Link lands a single bomb "Good ****! Send 'em home! " they on that **** before Toon Link even realizes he landed the move. Savages.

 

[AmishTechnology]

It's probably the Brawl Meta Knight PTSD shaking them around. Just hearing that rock-and-roll/metal version of Kirby victory theme induces panic attacks inside them.

 

[Ras99]

But tech it wasn't hype tho, its like they tried to put Ito off his game(and it worked a little).

Someone screamed "punch him in the ****" and "time him out". And as Ito said they were getting hype over bread and butter moves, fair strings that MK isn't scared of due to low damage output and Sheik can't convert it to an edgeguard cause we use MK.

Glad Ito won, but he needs headphones now. Like some dr dre headphones or something.



lrn 2 4dapt - said custom supporter

? What does IRN mean? I only know IRL: in real life...
or do You mean "Learn to adapt- custom supporter"?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah he was saying "learn to adapt".

 

[MagiusNecros]

Easy for them to say. As a Bowser main I sympathize with Meta Knight that our customs are garbage meanwhile...

 

[Amadeus9]

?? Bowser custom claw gives him tons of movement shenanigans...

 

[warionumbah2]

Thing with MK in customs is that he's not bad, but characters get waaaaaay better than him. He has no jank. Other high tiers such as Ness and ZSS don't get much out of customs but Ness has a bs back throw as well as PKT 2 and ZSS has a spike that kills early and i mean EARLY, also stairway to heaven combo's.

The only bs thing MK's got is Uair string to death from 20% or lower, master this and you'll be able to fend off bull**** like ito does weekly. But unlike Ness's back throw this is much much harder to pull off consistently.

The amount of MUs he loses in customs is absolutely stunning. He drops a full tier dammit.

 

[MagiusNecros]

?? Bowser custom claw gives him tons of movement shenanigans...

Right. Outside of that the rest is garbage or has a small niche and a lack of utility.

Likewise characters that benefit little from customs or have none at all are automatically outclassed.

Meaning if you are at a disadvantage you will have to work to pull your weight in a fight.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

When I went to Smash N Splash (25 out of 182 person customs tournament), I fought half a dozen customs Ganon, a custom Palutena, Luigi, Rosa, Sheik with shock needles, Mii Brawler, Hyper Monado Shulk and more. And I did straight vanilla bat ball the entire time.

We're still solid in customs. But its WAYYYYYY harder than vanilla. Having to rely on fundamentals and BnB while every else is relying on jank options and setups is really mentally draining. Knowing I could "probably" die at like 60 to something dumb but not knowing exactly how it could happen is scary. I have like no desire to ever do that again despite holding my own. Custom Palutena was the most annoying. It was like trying to swat a fly.

 

[Amadeus9]

Custom Palutena probably has the largest matchup shift for us. I used to main her, and I swear the extra options she gets changes the matchup from something like 70:30 to 35:65 at best. I'd love to see Ito vs Aerolink someday. That match would be intense.

 

[warionumbah2]

Fye already beat him lol(this was PRE PATCH btw)., Custom Palutina clearly isn't bad for us.

In customs based off theorycraft(or from what i've seen)

Sheik 30:70 maybe even worse after seeing Ito struggle to beat this bullcrap
Sonic 30:70 another campy top tier, Ito's scene has basically given up on fighting him head on after getting bodied every week. The MUs really show when they do this.
Kirby 40:60
Villager 10:90 apparently
Marth 30:70 Grab release Lucina beats us too
Fox 30:70 Fraudulent Up B
Pika 30:70
R.O.B 30:70
Mario 40:60 Katakiri had to play so patient against this ******
DK 40:60
WFT 40:60

Probably more characters beat us because of customs smh, my blood is boiling.

 

[Fye]

Back when I was in STL, there used to be a default Palutena main [yes you read that right]. Back when customs were just starting to gain traction, he used to use custom Palutena against me a lot, so I'm versed in both sides of the matchup. The gist of the matchup itself doesn't change from default to customs; it's just that we have to work harder for it.

This matchup is not fun for either side. You both have to play campy af. Jab shuts down much of our ground game; you can try to roll or Dimensional Cape through it if they feel safe. Palutena still has a bad approach game; she's just faster while doing it. The best thing she gains is super-speed into grab, so be ready to roll into her or Dair.

Grab will be the main thing she's looking for as all of Palutena's scary combos start from it. Our whole plan is to punish unsuccessful approaches and avoid getting overeager. Palutena cannot recover above you as both upsmash and shuttle loop hit her out of super speed, leaving her to recover from below, giving you the chance to bully her off-stage. Both of her projectile options (auto-reticle and explosive flame) are useless against a mobile character like MK and punishable if it goes an unfavorable direction.

 

[Amadeus9]

I think it's something that should be researched, it's weird kind of like the Olimar deal, where so few people main either character. I'm certainly no expert on either character, but I really feel it shifts the matchup quite significantly.

 

[Ulevo]

I have been researching Meta Knight recently and have a few tips of information.

1: Shuttle Loop 1 and Shuttle Launch 1 have two distinct hit boxes; the sweet spot and the sour spot. I had suspected this up until recently but never confirmed precisely how they worked. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is right in front of Meta Knight as he leaves the ground. Shuttle Loop 1's sweet spot is the visual blade arc that is shown as he ascends, directly in front of Meta Knight, as well as in front and above. There is a star flash that happens when using Shuttle Loop 1. The sweet spot seems to end vertically just before that star flash. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is a lot less defined and is much closer to Meta Knight's launch start position near the ground.

The sweet spot for both has high base knock back, and low knock back growth. To give you an idea of the kind of base knock back it has, if you take Sheik and bring her to Duck Hunt, bring her to the far left of the stage and then roll her to the right once, if you Shuttle Launch to the left and arc it forward so the 2nd hit misses, she will be launched high enough to land on the second tallest branch. If you repeat this at 150%, she will only go marginally higher, enough to reach the tallest branch. Shuttle Loop behaves in a very similar fashion. The base knock back and knock back growth as such that even as high as 200% or more, we will never miss the 2nd hit when sweet spotting as long as we arc correctly.

The sour spot has low base knock back, low knock back growth. However, the knock back growth on this is very important.

Essentially there are two reasons we as players miss our Shuttle Loops. We hit the sweet spot and arc Shuttle Loop incorrectly in tandem with our opponents DI, or we hit the sour spot near the end of the hit box and they are past a certain %.

To illustrate what I mean by the latter, take Sheik to Duck Hunt, put her on the fourth highest branch (left one), and roll Meta Knight towards the ledge. Do a short hop up air and buffer a Shuttle Loop. If done correctly, Meta Knight will be as low as possible to the ground while still doing a Shuttle Loop, not Shuttle Launch. This distance between Meta Knight and Sheik is approximately as far away as the opponent can be before Shuttle Loop 1 will begin missing. Up until 129, Shuttle Loop 2 will connect. After 130, Shuttle Loop 2 misses. Essentially this is the % where a Meta Knight would need to adjust the timing of the move so that he goes for more than just the tip of Shuttle Loop 1 in order to secure a kill.

2: I did not know this previously, but I found out while playing around with the "edge slip" technique shown on the Tourney Locator videos. If you want to grab the ledge as Meta Knight while being on lip of the edge, all you need to do is Shield while holding forward, then let go. Meta Knight will walk off and auto snap. This is how Ito has been doing it in his videos when he ledge trumps while shielding.

3: I found an interesting way to buffer a neutral air off the ledge, but it has to be done from a run. Say you are running right. Run until you are in the running animation. Before you reach the ledge, let go of the stick then hit right again immediately. This will put Meta Knight in to a skid animation. As you skid and are holding forward, spam A. You will fall off the ledge but because it is buffered you will do a neutral air instead of a forward air. This is likely the fastest way of doing this off the ledge, and is ideal if you are in a position far enough away from the ledge to do it.

4: Meta Knight's up air has three hit boxes, none of which send up. The first one is from roughly 0º to 90º of the sword arc in front of Meta Knight. This sends the opponent roughly 50-60º. The second one is past the 90º point of the arc, behind Meta Knight. This sends the opponent about 50-60º behind him. The last hit box is about 20-40º on the down swing of the sword arc, and it sends them at around a 35º degree angle. This is important to note because when you are doing up air strings, you want to be positioned so you are in front of the opponent but not directly below them. If you are directly below them, there is a chance you could hit them on the other side of the apex of the sword and send them in the opposite direction. Also, if they get to the point where they hit the 3rd hit box that sends them at around 35º then you are not going to be able to continue the string regardless of how well you juggle.

tl;dr: just the tip.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Back when I was in STL, there used to be a default Palutena main [yes you read that right]. Back when customs were just starting to gain traction, he used to use custom Palutena against me a lot, so I'm versed in both sides of the matchup. The gist of the matchup itself doesn't change from default to customs; it's just that we have to work harder for it.

This matchup is not fun for either side. You both have to play campy af. Jab shuts down much of our ground game; you can try to roll or Dimensional Cape through it if they feel safe. Palutena still has a bad approach game; she's just faster while doing it. The best thing she gains is super-speed into grab, so be ready to roll into her or Dair.

Grab will be the main thing she's looking for as all of Palutena's scary combos start from it. Our whole plan is to punish unsuccessful approaches and avoid getting overeager. Palutena cannot recover above you as both upsmash and shuttle loop hit her out of super speed, leaving her to recover from below, giving you the chance to bully her off-stage. Both of her projectile options (auto-reticle and explosive flame) are useless against a mobile character like MK and punishable if it goes an unfavorable direction.

Fuujin?

Also yeah, I agree with you on this. I don't think it's necessarily a bad MU, just a very annoying one. I basically just had to camp and get a lead. Fortunately both games against this Palutena I got like Up Air strings into death at like 60 on the first stock and then I just ran like a ***** the whole match. I was not about to go chasing that thing.

I think it's something that should be researched, it's weird kind of like the Olimar deal, where so few people main either character. I'm certainly no expert on either character, but I really feel it shifts the matchup quite significantly.

It takes it from a MU we definitely win and turns it into something akin to even-ish in my opinion. If you get a lead against Palutena ever she struggles.If we do lose its definitely not that bad. I mean I could definitely play the MU more but my first impressions tell me it's nothing too crazy.

I have been researching Meta Knight recently and have a few tips of information.

1: Shuttle Loop 1 and Shuttle Launch 1 have two distinct hit boxes; the sweet spot and the sour spot. I had suspected this up until recently but never confirmed precisely how they worked. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is right in front of Meta Knight as he leaves the ground. Shuttle Loop 1's sweet spot is the visual blade arc that is shown as he ascends, directly in front of Meta Knight, as well as in front and above. There is a star flash that happens when using Shuttle Loop 1. The sweet spot seems to end vertically just before that star flash. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is a lot less defined and is much closer to Meta Knight's launch start position near the ground.

The sweet spot for both has high base knock back, and low knock back growth. To give you an idea of the kind of base knock back it has, if you take Sheik and bring her to Duck Hunt, bring her to the far left of the stage and then roll her to the right once, if you Shuttle Launch to the left and arc it forward so the 2nd hit misses, she will be launched high enough to land on the second tallest branch. If you repeat this at 150%, she will only go marginally higher, enough to reach the tallest branch. Shuttle Loop behaves in a very similar fashion. The base knock back and knock back growth as such that even as high as 200% or more, we will never miss the 2nd hit when sweet spotting as long as we arc correctly.

The sour spot has low base knock back, low knock back growth. However, the knock back growth on this is very important.

Essentially there are two reasons we as players miss our Shuttle Loops. We hit the sweet spot and arc Shuttle Loop incorrectly in tandem with our opponents DI, or we hit the sour spot near the end of the hit box and they are past a certain %.

To illustrate what I mean by the latter, take Sheik to Duck Hunt, put her on the fourth highest branch (left one), and roll Meta Knight towards the ledge. Do a short hop up air and buffer a Shuttle Loop. If done correctly, Meta Knight will be as low as possible to the ground while still doing a Shuttle Loop, not Shuttle Launch. This distance between Meta Knight and Sheik is approximately as far away as the opponent can be before Shuttle Loop 1 will begin missing. Up until 129, Shuttle Loop 2 will connect. After 130, Shuttle Loop 2 misses. Essentially this is the % where a Meta Knight would need to adjust the timing of the move so that he goes for more than just the tip of Shuttle Loop 1 in order to secure a kill.

2: I did not know this previously, but I found out while playing around with the "edge slip" technique shown on the Tourney Locator videos. If you want to grab the ledge as Meta Knight while being on lip of the edge, all you need to do is Shield while holding forward, then let go. Meta Knight will walk off and auto snap. This is how Ito has been doing it in his videos when he ledge trumps while shielding.

3: I found an interesting way to buffer a neutral air off the ledge, but it has to be done from a run. Say you are running right. Run until you are in the running animation. Before you reach the ledge, let go of the stick then hit right again immediately. This will put Meta Knight in to a skid animation. As you skid and are holding forward, spam A. You will fall off the ledge but because it is buffered you will do a neutral air instead of a forward air. This is likely the fastest way of doing this off the ledge, and is ideal if you are in a position far enough away from the ledge to do it.

4: Meta Knight's up air has three hit boxes, none of which send up. The first one is from roughly 0º to 90º of the sword arc in front of Meta Knight. This sends the opponent roughly 50-60º. The second one is past the 90º point of the arc, behind Meta Knight. This sends the opponent about 50-60º behind him. The last hit box is about 20-40º on the down swing of the sword arc, and it sends them at around a 35º degree angle. This is important to note because when you are doing up air strings, you want to be positioned so you are in front of the opponent but not directly below them. If you are directly below them, there is a chance you could hit them on the other side of the apex of the sword and send them in the opposite direction. Also, if they get to the point where they hit the 3rd hit box that sends them at around 35º then you are not going to be able to continue the string regardless of how well you juggle.

tl;dr: just the tip.

I knew about 1 but it helps to get some clarification on this. The rest of these are news to me though. Thanks!

 

[Fye]

I'd say the matchup is close to even. We punish harder, but they have a bit better control of the neutral with super speed/lightweight. Yeah, it was Fujin. I take it he was the Palutena you faced?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'd say the matchup is close to even. We punish harder, but they have a bit better control of the neutral with super speed/lightweight. Yeah, it was Fujin. I take it he was the Palutena you faced?

Nah it wasn't him. I know him and figured he was probably the one you played because Missouri and stuff. I see him on Facebook posting such catch phrases as "Come catch these wings" lol

 

[Superbat]

@ Ulevo great find man. Always frustrating to lose kills because of that bull****

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight needs a DLC skin where he is given a frying pan instead of his sword. Every sword swing has the appropriate 'TWANG' SFX. When he Shuttle Loops, he drops an omelette and then swoops down to grab it again. When he does Tornado, fried food flies everywhere. His taunts would be "Yum!", "Tasty is my destiny.", and "You have much yet to cook." His final smash would be "Know my flavour!"

Your welcome.

 

[Superbat]

http://www.mypokecard.com/en/Gallery/my/galery/thumbs/yxVS8nXYvegi.jpg (Best I could do because I'm on mobile lol)