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Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
Location
Maine
NNID
Amadeuswololo
Sakurai knows about balance. He just doesn't think the competitive scene is his primary concern. He'd rather pander to casuals.
 

Qazoo306

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
51
I just finished my tournament. I got dead last. My first game was recorded, so I'll probably put it into the video thread. I'm shocked and proud to say I won a single game. I really like dreamland for MK. The platforms let you dance and dodge around, and the low ceiling is a great attribute. In my second set, I got totally destroyed. I got 2 stocked (the games were 3 stocks) for both matches by a Luigi. My opponent was very defensive and good with spot dodges. I couldn't get in at all and he would just use fire balls to keep me out, and he got a grab when I got close. I know we can camp Luigi if we get the lead, but getting a lead is very hard. Any advice for that match up?
 

Superbat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
375
Location
California
NNID
Superbat3
When he tries to dash grab you, spam the jab button. Let him approach you and then punish from there. If he's off stage and trying to recover, use dair because of disjoint (or bair if your confident you won't miss). When u you get the lead, platform camp him. (Check last week's come and ban videos for Itol. He camped Zex's Luigi. He also showed how to correctly play the MU. Vid- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONvjdFvryYQ
 
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warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
@Bonk! Apparently Tyrant is facing against Mr R(lol gg).

not hating but sheik vs mk without camping is even, the best player will win(Mr R). If Mr R wants to win(aka camp) all of a sudden what can Tyrant do? I don't think his MK is top 5 in US or the world.

Personal MK list
1.Ito
-Big gap-
2.Katakiri
3.S2H(haven't seen or heard of him in ages)
4.Fye
-Big gap AND I MEAN BIG-
5.Oki,Tyrant or that Japanese MK...basicaly idc about 5th
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Man, I feel like he definitely had that second game. What an unfortunate way to go out lol.

Edit: He now has to play Fatality in losers, the best Captain Falcon main in the world. You had a good run Tyrant, GG.
 
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Fye

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
95
Location
Midwest
NNID
FE-Judge
I feel Tyrant's really getting there. He's missing a couple of key combos and was a little DA happy, but that wasn't a terrible set against Mr. R. He didn't switch to Diddy, so he may start to be dedicated to the bat.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
He missed ALOT of key combos, Down throw into g shuttle loop is FREE AF at low percents. But he goes for sh uair or fair.

Game 2 was not close, all R had to do is hold shield to win. IMO it was one sided.

That's what happens when you go back to a character you ditched for Diddy. @Ito6 why didn't you go? No customs and alot these players are free af.
 
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Fye

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 26, 2014
Messages
95
Location
Midwest
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FE-Judge
There was a couple of times where he went for d-throw to SL, but he always jumped before it. That's why it seemed he switched to Fair. If he just did an angled-grounded SL, he would've consistently hit him. He did try up-air at questionable %, but that comes with experience. It's still good progress from where he once was.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
You should not be giving Tyrant a hard time. His character choices are his to make. I understand we rag on the false reputation he has with top players and commentators, but he is a player like the rest of us. Hopefully we see him improve his play.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I believe Seagull is still in as well. 6WX got eliminated in losers by Fatality, unfortunately.

Edit: lol I was very wrong and underestimated Tyrant, looks like he beat Fatality and is now fighting Vinnie.
 
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Fye

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 26, 2014
Messages
95
Location
Midwest
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FE-Judge
I didnt even know that was a thing. I'm usually too wary of staling UpB to use it that early.
This is probably why some new MK's hesitate to use this as well [I used to think that, too]. The combo is incredibly valuable to MK. It lets him rack up % far quicker and safer. SL still kills very reliably staled, so don't hesitate to use it to rack up damage.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
The amount of extra % you may need to secure with a Shuttle Loop that has staled will be made up for in spades by the additional damage you will gain by using it in combos.
 

LostinpinK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
110
Location
France
NNID
Ailkah
This is not brawl btw, stalling doesn't really matter.

Today I'm moving to the center of Paris, so I'll get seriously into competition :D. No one in France plays MK even remotely correctly, I'm motivated to show them what he can do! Expect videos soon.
 

MagiusNecros

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
3,176
Meta Knight's Jab can catch Mewtwo out of teleport to ledge. Done it quite a few times.

It really is disgusting. I like it.
 

W.A.C.

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
738
I'm shocked no-one who primarily mains Shiek made it into top 8 yesterday for CEO, yet we have two Diddy Kongs. lol Also congratulations to Ito once again for his victory.
 

Katakiri

LV 20
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
967
NNID
Katakiri
3DS FC
2492-5180-2983
I'm pretty happy with how I played yesterday at DtJ Presents: "It's Fine"! It was regional customs event and I placed 4th out of 100, only losing to Ally and an unwinnable MU. I didn't take a game off Ally but I did take his main Mario to last stock so small victories there. I did take out Xeroxen's custom Mario, one of the best Marios in the Midwest. That match is here: http://www.twitch.tv/pushblockgaming/v/6668949?t=4h45m31s The stream starts lagging bad during game one but clears up after after a bit. I also took out Taka, the 6th-ranked player on Anther's Ladder, Falcon main. I played really well at this tournament overall but customs of course had my run on a timer that stopped at 4th place.
As for that timer/unwinnable MU: Custom:4villager: 1122 (Tripping Sapling & Extreme Balloon Trip)

This was a known problem going into this tournament and I was dreading when KP|Joey and I would meet in bracket. I tried some new tricks, they didn't work so there wasn't anything I could do. Joey is a strong player in the Midwest but he's overall one of the best customs player in the Midwest.

Gonna tag @ ItoI6 ItoI6 right now because we're both going to EVO so we'll both have to deal with this and I don't know how much experience you have with this MU but this was my 3rd time meeting Joey in bracket at an event and I still don't see a way to win that isn't completely stage-dependent and I experiment with his Villager every time we play but it seems fruitless.

The obvious thing is get the lead and run away for a time out. Seems really nice on paper but in practice...where do we go? It's not even realistic to run from a character that has that much stage control with a multiple half-screen projectiles. Even worse, how we even get the lead? We need a stock lead to even think about timing Villager out and Villager needs only a 1% lead to start ledge camping and chipping us out. With tripping sapling in the way, MK has no way to get in on Villager. Our ground game is completely shut down by sapling and the air is covered in projectiles. At best I weave through and FF N-Air or Tomohawk to get some kind of momentum but if Villager sees you coming, he'll wall you out with turnip or jab or n-air or whatever he wants really because he has control of where we land by dictating where he doesn't currently have a hitbox at.

So when we lose the lead and Villager is on ledge with a a sapling near the ledge, what do we do? Waiting out the sapling is ideal but a good Villager will cover every approach we have and plant saplings using the timer much like Warios use the timer for Waft. Approaching when sapling is out is out of the question. Good Villager's place their sapling a foxtrot distance from the ledge. This makes it appear like there's a safe zone in-between the ledge and the sapling but that's where he wants you the most. If you hide in shield and wait for an opportunity, he'll use his explosive balloons (which do explode on command by using Up-B again), Lloid Rocket, Up-Air from under the stage, and F-Air to shield-push you into the sapling forcing a trip and punish. He has Balloons covering him at almost any point so our aerials will backfire on us by hitting a balloon which deals 9% a pop. Trying to Up-Air him from underneath (the only side of him not covered by balloons) will eventually lead into a Turnip spike. Ledge trumping Villager is not only difficult but not worth it since we don't get a punish due to how high and far is ledge trump animation is and he'll immediately try to pelt us with projectiles or fast fall into another Up-B. And finally punishing his non-invincible ledge snap doesn't work because we will not only pop his balloons but if he sees us charge or predicts an F-Smash, he can manually pop his balloons to hit us before he ledge snaps. He also pops up into the air when he pops his own balloons so he still recovers from doing that. F-Smash is the only option worth using for that purpose anyway as D-Smash pops his balloons too but only does 7% while we take 9% from the explosion.

I overcame Mii Brawler by sheer "git gud" but I don't see any way to win this MU. We have none of tools required to do anything in this MU. We don't have the range to hit him from the ledge when he jumps back to fire slingshots and Lloid. Our off-stage tools are no use when he can throw out an Up-B whenever he feels like and out-damage anything we can do off-stage with a 9% popped balloon. And sapling shuts down our grounded approach game entirely. This is such a prime example of a 10:90 MU. We have no tools for this. We lack spikes, projectiles, reflectors, attack reach, the ability to trade damage, we have nothing that matters when dealing with this character.

Oh and the Villager Up-B nerf from the latest patch doesn't affect custom Up-B at all.

Without customs, Villager is no issue. In customs, he's easily our hardest MU if not entirely unwinnable. If we don't find the golden path around this MU, those of us going to EVO or other customs tournaments NEED a secondary for this. Theory-crafting I don't think is going to help, we need to actually have live experience with this MU to figure it out because it's a lot worse playing against it than it is on paper. Here's my latest attempt at the MU + a VERY embarrassing Mega Man attempt: http://www.twitch.tv/pushblockgaming/v/6668949?t=5h26m18s I play decently at first but after the first stock, I got totally flustered and Joey took advantage of that because he knows me. I've got a ways to go as a player in that regard. Villager isn't the kind of character I use Mega Man for so I was a fish out of water in that regard but also I just played sooo poorly with Mega Man and I'm sure a lot of it is rust from not using Mega in a while but...man I'm so embarrassed by that game.

Next week, if we meet again in bracket, I'll either pull out Fireball Cannon + Dragon Rush:4charizard: (Fireball Cannon=Aimable Falco Laser) or potentially :4pikachu:. I'm playing in by ear tbh. I just gotta have something figured out by EVO.
 

Qazoo306

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
51
Does the tripping sapling beat tornado / drill rush? I know they're a bad option, but maybe the HSD custom could be our only way to get in against a villager. For the MU, is say try to never give him space to set up. I've never fought one myself, but that seems like the only thing you could do.
 

ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
Location
Oakland, Cali
ive never really played a good custom villager but what i would do is repeatedly jump above the ledge and wait for him to mess up. if youre high up he cant fair you and youre still in range to fastfall down on him and punish. also if you cross up under him you can probably upair from beneath and not touch the balloons, though it only does 5% and gives him stage control.
 
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Ghidorah14

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
758
This is why I dont like customs. Sure, they can spice things up, or even help characters overcome weaknesses, but it's incredibly problematic in a MU like this where things swing so drastically in one character's favor when it would otherwise be a decent MU.
 

Fye

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
95
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Midwest
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FE-Judge
When I was in Ohio, Joey knocked me out right before top 8. That whole tournament just left a bad taste in my mouth when it came to customs, but Villager earned a special place in my heart. I've never been as salty as 3rd game against Joey's Villager. I didn't even beat his Villager, I beat his Mii Brawler 2nd game.

Do you think Duck Hunt would help if you camped by the tree? That way you could come from above using Dair like Ito said.
 

Katakiri

LV 20
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Dec 20, 2007
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Katakiri
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Does the tripping sapling beat tornado / drill rush? I know they're a bad option, but maybe the HSD custom could be our only way to get in against a villager. For the MU, is say try to never give him space to set up. I've never fought one myself, but that seems like the only thing you could do.
Sapling is never placed in a space that HSD would be useful for passing. It's always near the ledge because a mid-stage sapling is useless to a Villager that needs to eventually ledge camp since he would have to wait for it to despawn before he can put another one near the ledge. HSD is decent for movement and passing through projectiles on-stage but doesn't have much use outside of that.

ive never really played a good custom villager but what i would do is repeatedly jump above the ledge and wait for him to mess up. if youre high up he cant fair you and youre still in range to fastfall down on him and punish. also if you cross up under him you can probably upair from beneath and not touch the balloons, though it only does 5% and gives him stage control.
That would be ideal and I do utilize those exact options in that video but, like you said, Up-Air is okay damage but not worth the risk of getting spiked. We throw some Up-Airs here & some N-Airs or D-Air there but we still have much lesser damage output and we're never gimping this character. Even attempting off-stage play is honestly not worth it due to just how much better Villager is at it. Villager is also throwing mix-ups out there too so trying to punish a pattern of Lloid Rocket or something could get up Up-Aired, Ballooned, or god forbid comboed into the blastzone by multiple B-Airs from ledge jump.

And yet the custom lovers will still defend this.

Anyway @ Katakiri Katakiri did you go yolo HSD? If so was it helpful?

It beats all of Lyod variants and goes over sampling.
I used HSD all tourney on a per-stage basis more than per-character. It's an okay mix-up against projectile characters (nowhere near safe tho) but I use it as a movement option instead of an attack. It helps me reach the SV & T&C platforms and avoid being trapped near walk-offs but on static stages like BF, FD, & Lylat, I'd rather have Drill Rush as a stage poke and use Cape to land on platforms instead.
 

MagiusNecros

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
3,176
This is why I dont like customs. Sure, they can spice things up, or even help characters overcome weaknesses, but it's incredibly problematic in a MU like this where things swing so drastically in one character's favor when it would otherwise be a decent MU.
Another part of it is all our customs suck.
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Then he's susceptible to grab releases(Rosalina,Marth and Lucina), how can anyone call this meta 'good' or 'healthy'.

I honestly don't know why Kata and Ito are going EVO other than a free ride, i don't have high expectations cause MK just doesn't handle jank at all. Due to once again getting abused by dumb releases and has no customs to defend himself.

Yes Ito wins his tourneys full of customs but non of them use jank, they all use top tiers with customs nothing special. There's no Villager,no Marth,no Mario,no DK,no Pikachu,no R.O.B and i can go on.

I watched Katakiri's stream and he's got it BAD, like they don't hold back in playing like ******s. Its disgusting.
 

PUK

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
777
Location
Paris, not texas
NNID
Simlock92
3DS FC
4141-4118-5477
Yeah counter tree and EBT are the only thing where, while counter strategies exist, i feel disapointed by custom.
I don't see MK doing really well. He has disjoint so he can't clank whith his own body, but these disjoints are not big enough to outrange villager.
Idk if MK has the lead in stock the match is virtually over but if he's losing in percent damn.
things: the second of down smash packs some power, dtilt, fsmash, downB, jab, all of these have hitbox which could hit villager
idk villager animation while grabbing the ledge could be even vulnerable to grounded UpB
 

LostinpinK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
110
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France
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Ailkah
See how fun CEO is? I have a strong feeling that EVO will be boring to watch if there are too many villagers or DK. I see the start of the decline of customs in the US if EVO's viewer count is too low. Because, seriously, who likes to watch jank?

So yeah, please camp and be boring as **** against these strategies <3
 
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MagiusNecros

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
3,176
Customs will likely die out eventually. Simple matter of DLC characters not having any.

Though that just leaves the stick in the mud tier characters well in the mud.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
After my final today I can go back on the grind and back into the lab. I can't wait. I've got a weekly event and I'm going to Canada this weekend. So excited!
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
My C.E.O. performance was satisfying, although I used Luigi and Diddy to cover certain MUs that I didn't feel like playing with MK (e.g. Sonic and Rosalina, respectively). In money matches on Sunday, though, I went mostly MK and made enough that I profited that I profited from the event and had some close games with Zero and Larry.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
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Ferndale, MI
My C.E.O. performance was satisfying, although I used Luigi and Diddy to cover certain MUs that I didn't feel like playing with MK (e.g. Sonic and Rosalina, respectively). In money matches on Sunday, though, I went mostly MK and made enough that I profited that I profited from the event and had some close games with Zero and Larry.
Did you beat any notable people in tournament/MMs?
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
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Ferndale, MI
JJ is pretty respectable in my region so that's a good win. Plus Diddy is just annoying to deal with in general haha.

EDIT: Oh yeah btw you should learn how to deal with Rosalina with Meta Knight. It's worth it. She doesn't get to have a Luma ever if you're doing it right.
 
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