Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yeah you better check yo self. You ain't from these streets.

 

[warionumbah2]

Im not a girl man, im Jay-Z.

The truth is back.

Its the roc, the roc is in the houuuuse!!

HOVI BAAAABBYYYY!!

We the roc as a group tho.

 

[PUK]

Fye already beat him lol(this was PRE PATCH btw)., Custom Palutina clearly isn't bad for us.

In customs based off theorycraft(or from what i've seen)

Sheik 30:70 maybe even worse after seeing Ito struggle to beat this bullcrap
Sonic 30:70 another campy top tier, Ito's scene has basically given up on fighting him head on after getting bodied every week. The MUs really show when they do this.
Kirby 40:60
Villager 10:90 apparently
Marth 30:70 Grab release Lucina beats us too
Fox 30:70 Fraudulent Up B
Pika 30:70
R.O.B 30:70
Mario 40:60 Katakiri had to play so patient against this ******
DK 40:60
WFT 40:60

Probably more characters beat us because of customs smh, my blood is boiling.

Is this what you call the +10 characters who beat us in custom.
Sheik is 40:60 at worst, maybe slightly harder than default. Campy sheik is what she's top tier, piercing needle are at best a sidegrade from default in this regard. You shouldn't be hit by gravity grenade. DI the explosion to avoid the Usmash.
Sonic being 30:70 after the nerf/buff? I don't buy it. The way hammer spin dash works makes this custom a bad choice against MK: It's slower, weaker and has a blind spot just in front of sonic while not being sheild cancelable on a useful way. The range of the hop (only the fall bury) is a tight window. Everything will be unchanged.
Kirby: No, MK win this MU, do you even know what kirby custom are? Outside of jumping inhale nothing will save him, and kirby can't gimp MK with inhale. Upper cutter is a good OOS option, but i don't see what it could punish in this MU. Also missed upper cutter= free combo
Villager: obnoxious to fight for everyone, but he's doomed if he loses the lead. The new fuel mecanic combined with the slower upB allows some strategy. Granted is a really hard MU. But 10:90 is a fantasy
Marth grab release bs kills around 85% at the very edge of FD (no vectoring) and way later the further from it you are. Lucina will kill even later. Both recovery and OOS/combo breaker option become crap. It's even, maybe slightly Marcina's favor custom off. It's the same custom on.
Fox: fraudulent upB is full of holes. Slow start up, slow as **** during it, 25% shorter are the downside, no hitbox at the beginning. The last hit is DIable to survive longer. From the ground center FD, with the good DI you survive up to around 105% (against 80%). SL does the same thing, farore wind kill sooner. Both are faster. Seriously it's bad.
Pika: imo Pika used to lose the MU. Not sure HSB changes the thing anyway. The pika i fought rarely used HSB, and it missed everytime. Thunder wave means he loses the thing which allows him to keep us at bay in default to be able to infinite.
ROB: you obviously don't ROB custom. The MU doesn't change so lose to even
Mario: don't really know the MU, and i fail to see what custom make it harder. Fast fireball i guess
DK: airdodge to avoid the suction effect, then punish the landing. Also DK is combo food and wind punch will kill at 140% with the windbox. Even, 45:55 at worst.
WFT: beware the weighted header when recovering. WFT will run everything else on default. If she uses jumbo hoop (really stupid) learn to walk/run away. She can't do anything but go high and MK being rather short means that he can be hit only by the first two hitboxes. Heavy end lag, can be punish on hit around 70%. Crappy recovery, snatch her jump and watch her falling miserably. Even because i don't believe she really loses the MU on default.

 

[warionumbah2]

You overrate MK waaaaaaay too much, i thought i was bad but jesus christ.

Edit: I'll give a somewhat serious reply later.

 

[Katakiri]

I like how Jab actually matters now. 3 weeks ago, if someone came in here claiming Jab was frame 10, who would even care to argue?

 

[PUK]

You overrate MK waaaaaaay too much, i thought i was bad but jesus christ.

Edit: I'll give a somewhat serious reply later.

Maybe, but i think you're overrating the utility of one changed move. This utility really depends of the MU. ROB vs Zelda was kinda even custom off mostly because ROB's ability to limit approach was balanced by the fact that zelda murdered him offstage. Now custom on ROB can recover but zelda is still ****ed onstage and it's 65:35 to simplify.
Kirby can recover against MK because he can recover from far and airdodge on the way. We can gimp him granted, but it's not easy money. Now jumping inhale and upper cutter make his recovery ungimpable. So what, MK can kill kirby at fraudulent percent, has a better mobility and this defines way more the MU.

 

[busken]

ugh i haven't played mk in like awhile i definitely need to get my knowledge and tech skill up. I personally would like to thank everybody for the contrubutions in this community lol, no seriously everybody Itol, warionumbah2, ulevo, katakiri, ztd, superbat, snoopy, bonk, etc like it really matters. I remember like post new year, we where very small b/c everybody slept on MK, and some still do but i think you guys got him out their a bit. I personally haven't been playing mk in months so i have sh** ton of catching up to do but yeah. I've been working on getting into the competitive scene so i might show up a little bit. I can't make it to mvg heatwave but i'm working on it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Spoiler

Is this what you call the +10 characters who beat us in custom.
Sheik is 40:60 at worst, maybe slightly harder than default. Campy sheik is what she's top tier, piercing needle are at best a sidegrade from default in this regard. You shouldn't be hit by gravity grenade. DI the explosion to avoid the Usmash.

Right off the bat i get this, no the MU is much worse than in default since sh gains a kill setup and yes you cn get hit during the spur of the moment. You can't count out a kill setup like that, the piercing needles as seen in the Ito vs Trevonte vid made the games way too close. You got the best MK player struggling to beat a Sheik user who isn't even the best, yes he has exp against the best MK but still. 30:70 is the right ratio we cannot rely on shield as much and the Sheik player will capitalize off that. This side grade practically ****s on MK, i got all the proof i need like 4 videos worth of evidence on how dumb she is.

Sonic being 30:70 after the nerf/buff? I don't buy it. The way hammer spin dash works makes this custom a bad choice against MK: It's slower, weaker and has a blind spot just in front of sonic while not being sheild cancelable on a useful way. The range of the hop (only the fall bury) is a tight window. Everything will be unchanged.

And yet Ito(oh look more video evidence) got camped out on SV and he was playing cat and mouse. The MU in default was already in his favor, its even worse here with his Spin dash that blitz MK. Maybe not 30:70 but still a bad MU where you'll most likely lose if the Sonic lames you out. You probably think we go even with him so whatevs.

Kirby: No, MK win this MU, do you even know what kirby custom are? Outside of jumping inhale nothing will save him, and kirby can't gimp MK with inhale. Upper cutter is a good OOS option, but i don't see what it could punish in this MU. Also missed upper cutter= free combo

Ight first of all don't ask me dumb questions, i know what his customs are. jumping inhale gives kirby tornado for free most of the time, thus adding a move to his combo's that deal greater damage than ours. Upper cutter invalidates our campy play straight up, we lose one of our tactics that ****s on Kirby. We cannot edgeguard him, upper cutter beats or outranges all our aerials and stage spikes. Its also a solid edgeguard tool if we use anything other than cape. What made this MU so laughable was how we could run circles around him and fight when we wanted, now we can't and his ability to box us out with his normals and get solid strings on us due to our fall speed just makes this more stressful. He gains a kill setup or crying out loud, utilt into Upper cutter. Same can be said for us when we miss shuttle loop smh, we can't even drift away that well but Kirby has surprising good mobility during his free fall.

Villager: obnoxious to fight for everyone, but he's doomed if he loses the lead. The new fuel mecanic combined with the slower upB allows some strategy. Granted is a really hard MU. But 10:90 is a fantasy

I'll take what high level MKs say, he's obnoxious for everyone. So? He ****s on MK that's what matters.

Marth grab release bs kills around 85% at the very edge of FD (no vectoring) and way later the further from it you are. Lucina will kill even later. Both recovery and OOS/combo breaker option become crap. It's even, maybe slightly Marcina's favor custom off. It's the same custom on.

Lucina also has a tipper on her crescent slash, who needs their default up b oos when you can grab pummel 3 times into a tippered up b? You reasoning is hella poor, they gain stronger tools ontop of their new jab which confirms into F-smash. Prime example of a MU once even going to **** with a few dumb ****.

Fox: fraudulent upB is full of holes. Slow start up, slow as **** during it, 25% shorter are the downside, no hitbox at the beginning. The last hit is DIable to survive longer. From the ground center FD, with the good DI you survive up to around 105% (against 80%). SL does the same thing, farore wind kill sooner. Both are faster. Seriously it's bad.

If your getting these numbers from training mode then its all fallacy, rage and freshness will make this move even more dumb. And FD isn't a stage you should take Fox, the up b is good at punishing tech chases after he uses his ftilt. Its fradulent cuz it ends stocks earler than Up smash especially in rage. Also MK struggles to edgeguard a Fox that goes low, until i see MK edgeguard him reliably with my own eyes that is.

Pika: imo Pika used to lose the MU. Not sure HSB changes the thing anyway. The pika i fought rarely used HSB, and it missed everytime. Thunder wave means he loses the thing which allows him to keep us at bay in default to be able to infinite.

I'm even gonna reply to this.

ROB: you obviously don't ROB custom. The MU doesn't change so lose to even

AhahahaAHAHAHA you're the only MK atm that thinks ROB is even, his custom Up B is bonkers. His recovery is impossible to get and his ability to beep boop or straight up boop is insane. Pretty sure he gets a tripping gyro too, all in all ROB gains useful tools to aid his kill power and ignore our edgeguards. 'Even' my back foot.

Mario: don't really know the MU, and i fail to see what custom make it harder. Fast fireball i guess

Scalding flood,fireballs. Just watch Katakiri play the MU on one of the streams he linked.

DK: airdodge to avoid the suction effect, then punish the landing. Also DK is combo food and wind punch will kill at 140% with the windbox. Even, 45:55 at worst.

Another one i just don't want to responde to, im honestly baffled. I guess MK will place high at EVO going with how easy he handles custom characters.

WFT: beware the weighted header when recovering. WFT will run everything else on default. If she uses jumbo hoop (really stupid) learn to walk/run away. She can't do anything but go high and MK being rather short means that he can be hit only by the first two hitboxes. Heavy end lag, can be punish on hit around 70%. Crappy recovery, snatch her jump and watch her falling miserably. Even because i don't believe she really loses the MU on default.

Don't care about WFT bland character no one remotely cares about, i have no idea why i put her there. My b.Also there's more characters that potentially beat us but i don't want to read posts similar to the Pika and DK ones.

ugh i haven't played mk in like awhile i definitely need to get my knowledge and tech skill up. I personally would like to thank everybody for the contrubutions in this community lol, no seriously everybody Itol, warionumbah2, ulevo, katakiri, ztd, superbat, snoopy, bonk, etc like it really matters. I remember like post new year, we where very small b/c everybody slept on MK, and some still do but i think you guys got him out their a bit. I personally haven't been playing mk in months so i have sh** ton of catching up to do but yeah. I've been working on getting into the competitive scene so i might show up a little bit. I can't make it to mvg heatwave but i'm working on it.

Nothings changed from early 2015, he gets no respect. That reddit list proves it as well as other things. Ito hasn't changed peoples minds THAT much. IMO

MKs outside Smashboards are way behind the meta(and tend to play poorly) so its ok being behind lol, welcome back(temporarily since you might dip again).

So what, MK can kill kirby at fraudulent percent, has a better mobility and this defines way more the MU.

Same reason why we **** on Luigi right? How well do you think MK will do at EVO? Still haven't answered me that.

Imma say it now, i don't think he'll place high and i 100% know Ito and Katakiri won't solo MK and get far doing that. This meta isn't for him, you're like currently the only one who's this optimistic about MK in customs.

Also @everybody Ito vids just got uploaded on youtubs. Check it out, also that 50% combo on Fox is sexy.

 

[busken]

even though ike is easy too edge guard this is a good way to beat it, dunno if u saw this already
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fw96Fim3o4

its easy the minute ike sword goes above the stage and is about to come down, press a lol

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't think Tech_Chase recognises me since my username change :o

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I know exactly who you are. You're from Australia so that alone makes it easy to guess, Aerodrome

 

[W.A.C.]

Sheik 30:70 maybe even worse after seeing Ito struggle to beat this bullcrap

Shiek is more of a ***** with customs enabled, but I don't feel it changes the matchup that much. Still a very doable, but a difficult matchup regardless. Every character in the game (except maybe custom Pikachu) is at a disadvantage against her.

Sonic 30:70 another campy top tier, Ito's scene has basically given up on fighting him head on after getting bodied every week. The MUs really show when they do this.

Sonic is way worse for MK with customs enabled, but still doable.

Kirby 40:60

wtf? How?

Villager 10:90 apparently

10:90 is way too extreme of an estimate when both Ito and some Japanese MK player was able to fight custom Villager, but out of all the matchups, Villager becomes considerably worse to fight against with customs enabled.

Marth 30:70 Grab release Lucina beats us too

30:70? wtf? Marth and Lucina (pre-1.0.8 patch) were some of the worst characters in the game when customs are disabled, but they're actually viable when customs are enabled. They benefit a lot from customs, but Meta Knight still beats them (pre-1.0.8) regardless if customs are enabled or not. I can't talk specifically about the match-up post patch because Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight all got buffed in the latest patch, and I haven't played the matchup since then.

Fox 30:70 Fraudulent Up B

That custom move definitely makes the matchup harder, but at worst, maybe it goes from 60:40 to 65:35 or form 55:45 to 60:40.

Pika 30:70

Pikachu arguably becomes the most broken character in the game when customs are enabled, so it's hard to say what's the matchup like when the only exceptional Pikachu player out there is ESAM.

R.O.B 30:70

60:40 at absolute worst. Difficult matchup, but I don't think it changes much with customs except ROB has more mobility in the air with customs. However, he also has less gas and that can be exploited through ledge denials.

Mario 40:60 Katakiri had to play so patient against this ******

The match is worse with customs, but not horrible.

DK 40:60
WFT 40:60

I don't feel either of these characters beat MK regardless if customs are enabled or disabled.

----------

Overall, MK doesn't do as well with customs enabled because he lacks strong customs, but he's still viable. Ito's weekly performances at The Foundary is proof of that. After the recent buffs, I feel he's high mid tier at absolute worst in the custom metagame, but definitely high tier in vanilla.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't think Tech_Chase recognises me since my username change :o

You must be here because you finished Meta Knights fraMe data!

...right?

RIGHT?!

* Waits Patiently *

 

[warionumbah2]

@ W.A.C. im not replying to multiple posts man **** that.

Ito's weekly is filled with people flocking to top tiers with customs slapped on them.

They are fishing for MKs bad MUs to crush Ito, you start seeing ZSS more i dunno if they lurk but its not a coincidence. Luckily Ito trains with a ZSS so they need to be hella good to beat Ito.

Basically Ito doesn't fight the true terror of customs, he fought a Villager but i don't think that Villager player truly abused his kit. He's viable in customs yea, but just barely. You must be a high level MK to really get something out of him in customs, default you can be mid level and somewhat compete decently(Selana and Tyrant).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You must be here because you finished Meta Knights fraMe data!

...right?

RIGHT?!

* Waits Patiently *

I posted it but warionumbah2 told me to remove it because jab is frame 7

 

[warionumbah2]

I posted it but warionumbah2 told me to remove it because jab is frame 7

BRUH ITS FRAME 6 CHANGE IT!!

 

[Ulevo]

I posted it but warionumbah2 told me to remove it because jab is frame 7

On your website?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

On your website?

Yes, I'll have to reuploaded it later.

Check the last page for my post.

 

[busken]

i wonder how long it'll take for me to git gud. it'll probably happen when @ warionumbah2 doesn't change his avatar every week.

 

[warionumbah2]

You'll drop him. Like last time.

And you'll come back playing catch up with *insert MKs that are behind the meta*

 

[busken]

AAUHBSODBHIJLNDKLD

you're lucky i have a warning....

atleastididnthoponRyuhypetrain.

 

[Amadeus9]

So, we down three spots on the reddit tier list boys. Looks like the reddit community is still the paramount example of metagame understanding. We should all take a lesson from them, and drop MK for Roy.

 

[busken]

So, we down three spots on the reddit tier list boys. Looks like the reddit community is still the paramount example metagame understanding. We should all take a lesson from them, and drop MK for Roy.

Studies show that even going on reddit drops iq points.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Keep that trend guys, I can almost smell an Uair and Fair buff

 

[warionumbah2]

People trying to say he's high tier, bunch of douche bags I tell ya.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

If you guys want to get buffed, something you could do is purposely lose on FG with him and win matches with other good characters that he loses to like , and . Sakurai's team sometimes looks at FG results to see if a character needs to get buffed or nerfed, so having a high loss ratio with would indicate that he needs a buff, while having a high win ratio with the aforementioned characters would indicate that they need nerfs.

 

[Zonez]

If you guys want to get buffed, something you could do is purposely lose on FG with him and win matches with other good characters that he loses to like , and . Sakurai's team sometimes looks at FG results to see if a character needs to get buffed or nerfed, so having a high loss ratio with would indicate that he needs a buff, while having a high win ratio with the aforementioned characters would indicate that they need nerfs.

That sounds stupid enough to work...

You sure they look at FG stats? I don't think anyone is that dumb.

 

[W.A.C.]

Little Mac had the absolute worst win: lose ratio in For Glory mode, yet his viability got trashed in the first balance patch. The power of whining has a far bigger impact on balance patches than For Glory records (examples: Little Mac and Diddy Kong)

 

[Meatbag]

I hope sakurai brings back the fair autolink.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

Copypasta from the WFT Social OP

Hello Meta Knight Board Visitors!

And welcome to the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion Thread!​

This Thread Rules [WIP]
1. Every single Global Rule still applies here.
2. Deposit in this thread your random ideas, one-liner thoughts, what happened to you during the day, what is really grinding your gears, etc.
3. Because of that, there is no topic, so you do not need to be on-topic the whole time (ignoring others is rude though).
4. If you can avoid it, DO NOT MAKE A NEW THREAD. If the thought is short or you think it will not have much discussion, post it here.
4.1. Moderators may close threads and move discussions here.
5. If you do something that pleases the gods mods, You'll earn a golden star!. :D
6. Try to get along, we can remove the stars, too. >:C

THE MK COMMUNITY​

-Name: kyokoro_pamuyo - Mod
-Location: Somewhere in Mexico.
-Talents: Baking pastries, Drawing I guess, Being a bad gamer.
-Likes: All kinds of food. ALL.KINDS.OF.FOOD.
-Dislikes: Internet arguments.
-Goals: To one day be good at Smash.
-Other facts: Is bad at making personal profiles.

Name: Wariofan1
Location: Denmark
Talents: Drawing, animating, playing guitar, okay-ish at Smash.
Likes: Blue puffballs with masks, purple space dragons and vegetable dinosaurs.
Dislikes: The mailman for being late with my game.
Goals: To master the art of playing Meta Knight on a handheld console and an HD console.
Other facts: I've been playing Smash since 2002 when Melee released in Europe, so I guess there's that.

Name: Gijs (yeah you get my real name)
Location: Proud to say that I'm from the Netherlands
Talents: would be things like gaming and things I am currently studying for
Likes: People and hanging aroung with them and pretty women as well, Anime, ofcourse video games, House and hiphop music
Dislikes: pointless arguments
Goals: to be able to say "I have had a good life when I'm old"
Other facts: Just ask stuff if you want to know.

Name: warionumbah2
Location: England
Talents: Athletics(100m and relay), drawing , playing Smash
Likes: Reading,Girls,Video games,Meta Knight,Manga,Anime,Working out,Movies,Hanging out with friends,Girls,Winning,Girls....
Dislikes: People acting tough online, People who are disrespectful IRL and on forums, Long arguments over pointless topics, Racism, Children of this generation swearing like sailors.
Goals: Get a good career,Have a beautiful wife and kids,Make my mother proud,Wreck people on smash(lol)
Other: Never touched Smash 64.

-Name: Jungle
-Location: Chicago
-Talents: I dunno being a cat
-Likes: Food, weeb stuff, broken characters
-Dislikes: not broken characters
-Goals: To learn how to do the 1 man tango
-Other facts: I do lawyer things

Name: Curlz
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Talents: Problem solving. Music.
Likes: Multiplayer games, New Orleans Saints, music.
Dislikes: Negativity.
Goals: To prove I don't play Meta Knight just because he's "the best". Lol.
Other facts: I will be at Apex 2015.[/quote]

Name: Hawk (or Rumi)
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Talents: Affinity for incessant debate
Likes: Video games, sleeping, philosophy
Dislikes: Appointments, alarm clocks
Goals: To obtain enough technical proficiency with fighting games/smash to foster an enjoyment of competing, and a better environment for more communication between minds in a match (and not just focusing on spacing...or combos...or punishes...or generally not messing up execution)
Other facts: I tend to speak a lot without saying much.

Name: Solkev
Location: Massachusetts
Talents: Being the best smasher in Revere and basic game design (if RPG Maker counts)
Likes: Games, anime, fun communities
Dislikes: Bad communities, fan fiction, and people that look down on others
Goals: To show why the dark knight is still a force to be reckoned with.
Other facts: Along with Meta Knight, I will also be using Ike and possibly Robin.

Name: Ndayday
Location: Michigan
Talents: nothing much!
Likes: games, video games, cool people
Dislikes: mean people, bad video games, taking things seriously
Goals: one; in 4th grade soccer
Other facts: I like the idea of getting involved in certain communities but also kind of stand on sidelines.

Want to be part of the community? Just post your profile by filling the next fields:​

[b]Name: Mr.T[/b] (if you want a color, just state it in the application!)
[b]Location: San Marcos, TX
Talents: Scrubbing
Likes: Not dieing
Dislikes: dieing
Goals: 
Other facts:[/b]

With that said, let's get the party started![/quote]

 

[rubberband]

Any tips for landing MK's down b? Right now the only things I'm killing with are up b and bair, so it would be a nice mix up.

 

[Deleted member]

Meta Knight has a plethora of better moves to kill with, but if you insist on using his dimensional cape to kill, then I guess you can use it to punish your opponent if they mess up by throwing out an unsafe/laggy attack or something.

Happy birthday by the way.

 

[rubberband]

Thanks, but better moves like what? Up B, fsmash, and bair are the only reliable ones I know of. Dimensional Cape is a solid kill move based on some guides I've read, I just can't figure out how to use it. I mean this in a literal sense, I don't know how to hit people with it. So far it's just been a recovery tool.

 

[LostinpinK]

I get most of my kills with combo into up B. Then Bair or reverse Nair near the edge / offstage. Then a read with Fsmash at lower % or a Uthrow / Bthrow at higher %. From time to time though, I use dimensional cape. The key is to mix things up. If you use DC autocancel to land from time to time, either behind your opponent or away from them, they'll be slightly less vigilent when they see the starting animation (because otherwise it's too easy to shield on reaction...). Then you can try to surprise them. Probably won't work against better players though. The other situation where you can use it is when they charge a smash at you. It can be for good reason (waiting for you to grab the edge for the 2nd time), or just for baiting (with smashes similar to our fsmash / ganon's Usmash). If they to that you can 100% go in with your DC and punish them. Last use is reading a tech I guess, but the timing is tough and it's risky.

 

[Linkmario00]

Generally I get my dimensional Cape conditioning the opponent using DC autocancel for escaping juggles or for land after some Dair camp, so that they don't try to punish and stay in place, then baiting them using DC's attack on them at kill percent

 

[Altair357]

I think he means that he literally doesn't know how to attack with Dimensional Cape. The answer to this is that you use the attack by keeping the B button held while you reappear.

 

[Ulevo]

You need to avoid using Dimensional Cape unless you feel you can get a hard read. It can be used to dodge attacks and hit them, much like a counter, but this again is usually done on a read. I find it best to do on opponents who are on platforms so that when I use it I do not land on the platform with them. It can also be used on opponents who are falling and are about to hit the ground. If they air dodge, they incur the landing lag and will get hit.

Treat it as Melee Marth's counter and use it situationally.

 

[warionumbah2]

Why the **** are you guys using DC(another batman reference) as a kill move?

Basically use it how Ulevo said or don't use it all.

 

[PUK]

Sometimes if they fail the tech after a dtilt at high percent i DC. It's ballsy but i think it's our only punish on a failed tech at these percent since we can't jab lock and Usmash does't work on laying characters.

 

[Meatbag]

Or you could use shuttle launch after dtilt. It comes out a lot faster and kills more reliably