Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[warionumbah2]

A 1 or 2% damage buff across the board would make me a little happy. A little.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

- Remove some the atrocious end lag on his aerials.

- Move the RCO lag from Dimensional Cape.

- A small damage increase across the board (minus like Mach Tornado).

If any ONE of this changes happened, I would be happy. And surprised. Nobody is really paying attention to us now though. I think its more likely we'll be left alone completely.

 

[FabianM]

Name: FabianM, I really need a tag, though.
Location: Switzerland actually
Talents: I love myself some drawing and playing video games. I also got into game design and I am creating my first game as my matriculation project right now :D
Likes: Well, playing video games I suppose. I never saw that as being something bad or some kind of escapism. I have always liked the art of the medium, and especially the community. I am also interested in art in general.
Dislikes: I really wish that there would be at least somewhat of a competitive scene in Switzerland. Neither do I have anyone to play with to the degree I want to, nor is there any tournament avaible... One day, I am going to open an arcade-like lounge and develop our community. The general perception is very bad around here, and I feel like only AAA titles sell.
Goals: Just live a good and healthy life. Maybe I'll start Game Design as a hobby, or make some Webcomics. I dunno c:
Other facts: I am pretty new to this. I thought I'd make an account here and improve myself from there on. This is th first post I have made :D

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Name: FabianM, I really need a tag, though.
Location: Switzerland actually
Talents: I love myself some drawing and playing video games. I also got into game design and I am creating my first game as my matriculation project right now :D
Likes: Well, playing video games I suppose. I never saw that as being something bad or some kind of escapism. I have always liked the art of the medium, and especially the community. I am also interested in art in general.
Dislikes: I really wish that there would be at least somewhat of a competitive scene in Switzerland. Neither do I have anyone to play with to the degree I want to, nor is there any tournament avaible... One day, I am going to open an arcade-like lounge and develop our community. The general perception is very bad around here, and I feel like only AAA titles sell.
Goals: Just live a good and healthy life. Maybe I'll start Game Design as a hobby, or make some Webcomics. I dunno c:
Other facts: I am pretty new to this. I thought I'd make an account here and improve myself from there on. This is th first post I have made :D

Welcome to the family.

 

[FabianM]

Welcome to the family.

I appreciate that :D

 

[Ulevo]

I realize our individual hits don't do a lot, but do we really need a damager % increase? I mean, we kill basically at 80-110%, and most of our combos do over 20%. Shuttle Loop by itself does what, 15%? Mach Tornado does 18-21% usually? I don't think its necessary.

 

[warionumbah2]

When you fight a good Falcon/Peach you'll realize how hard it is for MK to keep up percent wise, he has to rely on tornado alot. Its not a big thing though.

I can't think of any other buffs, the rest is basically 'fixing' such as his hitboxes on Ftilt,Dtilt and D-Smash, him not ledge snapping after tornado since the spinning fall animation prevents him from grabbing it(although the spinning animation allows MK to slide off platforms to avoid a potential punish).

 

[Ulevo]

When you fight a good Falcon/Peach you'll realize how hard it is for MK to keep up percent wise, he has to rely on tornado alot. Its not a big thing though.

I can't think of any other buffs, the rest is basically 'fixing' such as his hitboxes on Ftilt,Dtilt and D-Smash, him not ledge snapping after tornado since the spinning fall animation prevents him from grabbing it(although the spinning animation allows MK to slide off platforms to avoid a potential punish).

That animation is consistent with Drill Rush and Dimensional Cape also, which leads me to believe it was intentional design to balance his recovery.

 

[W.A.C.]

It was definitely intentional design, just really bad intentional design because it makes it stupidly easy to accidentally suicide with Meta Knight. It's really odd how they made the specials for such an aerial based character so dangerous to use off stage. If they made all of his free fall states allow him to regrab the edge, it would give Meta Knight so many more options in what he could do and make a lot of his specials way less risky. I can't tell you how many times I begin drilling someone and somehow they fall out, so I end up dying because I can't regrab the ledge. It's the worst with HSD because you can't even angle it if something goes wrong (which it has many times). If they make that change, it's not like he would suddenly become broken. Dimensional Cape would become a hell of a lot more useful if you could use the attack form of that move near an edge and be able to regrab it like in Brawl. If they made that change to all of his specials, I probably would use Meta Knight a lot more than I currently do and he's already my second most used character. I'd easily take that change over better range...though his hit boxes should be improved regardless.

 

[Ulevo]

I don't know. I think you guys are underselling the good portions of Meta Knight's kit. Saying you'd rather have a less punishing free fall state from his specials as opposed to range is kind of absurd. The only thing holding Meta Knight back from being super great is the really silly stuff a couple top tiers have and his poor neutral game. If you start donating random things to him it just turns him into a character who's overloaded, which is exactly how Brawl Meta Knight was.

 

[W.A.C.]

Meta Knight is the only character in the game with free fall states that can't regrab ledges and 3/4 of his specials have states like that. That's kind of ridiculous and changing that won't make him overpowered or overloaded. I'd also much rather see top tiers left alone (except maybe a nerf to the ridiculous knockback from Diddy's up air) and see most of the cast buffed up to Diddy's and Shiek's level. That would just make much of the cast feel more solid and more fun. I used to love Project M 3.0 because almost all the characters in that game seemed awesome. Then 3.5 came out and suddenly the game was nowhere near as fun because the characters were nowhere near as good. Really miss Project M 3.0 Diddy Kong and Meta Knight in that game. Diddy Kong deserved some nerfs from 3.0 because he was ridiculously overpowered, but Meta Knight was fine in that game and now he's nowhere near as good as he used to be in Project M despite not even being viewed as a top ten character. I never expect Smash 4 to go anywhere near that extreme (except for poor Greeninja and Little Mac who were over nerfed last patch), but it's be nice if this game tried to improve balance through buffs instead of nerfs.

TL;DR: I don't want balance achieved through nerfing the best characters in the game. Not against seeing some custom moves nerfed though.

 

[LostinpinK]

^if I want any changes on MK, these are the ones. Lag install removed on down B could make it a potent movement option, and other "quality of life" changes would be appreciated like hitboxes matching perfectly the animations (or vice-versa).

I don't want balancing made around Diddy Kong lol, because it would mean giving everyone janky **** like his Uair / dtilt / fait / dthrow / uthrow and the game would be kind of ridiculous. Balancing around MK's or Pit's or even Mario's level would be alright though.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm at work but I will be lurking, checking out any other updates on the patch. I got to play around with MK this morning though. <3 no more RCO lag.

 

[Sol0ke]

So Sonic is more manageable now?

Thank goodness

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sonic got a lot of damage nerfs as well as lost potency on his kill throw (easily one of the scariest things about facing him). So he now has to work significantly harder.

 

[W.A.C.]

Is Sonic likely even top tier anymore? I considered him the third best character in the game, but those nerfs sound really uncalled for. I hate this balance patch. Most of the character changes were nerfs instead of buffs.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sonic is still really good but I think he lost some steam because of this patch. Sonic mains are upset but I knew Sonic was among one of the characters that was going to be nerfed. If he isn't top tier he's still a competitive character. But I think he's going to be much more manageable now. This patch overall (at first glance) has helped us both directly and indirectly (the nerfing of some of our bigger threats).

 

[Ulevo]

I think after this patch, Diddy is going to remain as the sole top tier, but not in his own class, while there will be a lot of people fighting for spots in the high tier positions. I'd assume top three to be Diddy, Sheik and Luigi. I think Meta Knight got a lot better with the relative nerfs to these characters, and with Sheik and Sonic moving down a peg, the A/A+ tier is suddenly pretty crowded.

Good stuff overall. Happy about these changes. Now if they could fix the damn C Stick.

 

[Superbat]

Name: FabianM, I really need a tag, though.
Location: Switzerland actually
Talents: I love myself some drawing and playing video games. I also got into game design and I am creating my first game as my matriculation project right now :D
Likes: Well, playing video games I suppose. I never saw that as being something bad or some kind of escapism. I have always liked the art of the medium, and especially the community. I am also interested in art in general.
Dislikes: I really wish that there would be at least somewhat of a competitive scene in Switzerland. Neither do I have anyone to play with to the degree I want to, nor is there any tournament avaible... One day, I am going to open an arcade-like lounge and develop our community. The general perception is very bad around here, and I feel like only AAA titles sell.
Goals: Just live a good and healthy life. Maybe I'll start Game Design as a hobby, or make some Webcomics. I dunno c:
Other facts: I am pretty new to this. I thought I'd make an account here and improve myself from there on. This is th first post I have made :D

Welcome to the bat cave. I play sonic as well and I can definitely say he's still top 10. He'll still probably body us MK's as well. He's far from being nonviable.

 

[warionumbah2]

Sonic can't BS his way against MK anymore, his back throw was dumb. Diddy still has a strong neutral but he no longer kills us early nor does he get as much reward as before, Sheik struggles even more to kill.

Then apparently Rosalina will be safe thanks to those nerfs but MK has the advantage against her lol so if she becomes common so be it, truly a comfortable time against top tiers

Edit: Customs is still dumb but hey.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I have to admit, I'm rather excited. I came into the Bat Brigade at an interesting time. Eager to start doing well with him. I've seen serious improvement in the last week. And I have two tournaments this weekend, that I will be going as much MK as I can. Excited for what the weekend holds for me.

 

[LostinpinK]

Mewtwo is our easiest matchup, and it's close to unlosable.

It might be a bold claim considering the limited experimentation we've had with Mewtwo, but this matchup is like Rosalina's without her spacing and stage control. He has... nothing really, we can DA him into nado until 40%, and Uair -> up B kills have never been easier since he is LIGHTER than G&W.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sounds incredibly free.

 

[Superbat]

Been labbing with Little Mac and it seems like he would be a solid secondary for MK. He already beats sonic pretty cleanly before the patch but post patch Sonic's back throw can no longer gimp him as badly at high percents. For the Zss match-up (which is another hard one for this) i'm not too sure on this one but I think he has a easier time with ZSS than MK. For the customs meta Lil Mac actually becomes viable because he gains an actual recovery now. opinions? There's no lil mac player with the skill level of 6xw.

@ warionumbah2 Dam Customs Mega it is then.

 

[warionumbah2]

For the customs meta

Nah man, customs = windboxes. Mac is trash in customs tbh. If you want a secondary i recommend

Edit: He sucks in default too.

 

[W.A.C.]

"He already beats sonic pretty cleanly before the patch"

What? How? How was that matchup in Little Mac's favor? A player like 6WX would destroy any Little Mac main.

 

[Superbat]

Lil Mac's frame 1 jab beats sonic's spin dash. Little mac's ground game beats sonic. Sonic may have back airs to edgeguard and springs but lil mac beats him by raw damage and power. post patch especially with spin dash nerf. A good lil will just slowly walk up to him and just do ftilts, dtilt and jabs since sonic cant do **** (beats his dash attack, spin dash, his own ftilt, dash grab lol,) I actually play sonic and know a little about lil mac as well so yes, I know the matchup. 6:4 in lil mac's favor.

I'm a fraud. forget what I just said

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

My results today:

5th out of 28 teams.

13th out of 77 entrants.

Pretty much all MK. It's so hard. But I gotta keep at it. I'm seeing gains and proud of my going the distance with MK. Even when I knew I would've won using another character. My will is strong.

 

[Ulevo]

My results today:

5th out of 28 teams.

13th out of 77 entrants.

Pretty much all MK. It's so hard. But I gotta keep at it. I'm seeing gains and proud of my going the distance with MK. Even when I knew I would've won using another character. My will is strong.

There are a lot of hidden tricks you can use to help yourself improve.

For instance, I found out a while ago in the Captain Falcon match up that dash attack beats his standing jab, but only if you use the dash attack close to Falcon. This is because the foot hitbox comes out in such a way that it sneaks underneath the jab, but when it is left out as a meaty hitbox it gets larger and clanks with the jab even if its higher up.

Question, does Sheik have any kind of invincibility on her up smash? I often find this move beating me out when I'm above Sheik and use spaced down air and Tornado.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

It's basically because I'm new to MK. Going on 3 weeks now. I'm just a relatively skilled player so I can still perform decently. But its a matter of gaining familiarity that can only be acquired through experience. I'll get there.


Edit: Today I got 1st out of 13 teams and 7th out 34 in singles. Super proud of how I played in dubs today. I see myself growing!

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.twitch.tv/nmesmash

Tyrant is using Meta Knight on there if anyone feels like watching.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We need to start doing stuff on these forums again and get some real information exchange going.

 

[warionumbah2]

Yeah i think we should cover more high tier MUs, but i don't know who to start with.

Hopefully get more input now that there's more MKs.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

On a side note, I was knocked out of a tournament this weekend by one of our high level Sonic players. This player is a bit better than me but I enjoyed a relatively close set. Sonic isn't so bad anymore. I think it's probably between 45-55 and 60-40 still but it's not that bad.

I also went through the Luigi gauntlet. That matchup is difficult. I question how it's listed as even....45-55 Luigi seems more accurate to me. I'm still on the fence though.

 

[warionumbah2]

Katakiri is the only MK that has that MU on lock, to my knowledge anyway.

I myself don't find this MU bad same goes for his brother(doc gets blown away lol).

 

[Katakiri]

Luigi only wins solidly against MK when customs are involved (namely the Ice Ball Neutral-B) and even that's stage-dependent. And I only know the MU as well as I do because I grinded it out for 2 weeks after Boss beat me. Never again.

Mario's harder for me than Luigi. In customs, I don't think we can win against a competent Mario solely because of Scalding FLUDD. What a broken custom ("broken custom" is redundant, I know).

Mewtwo is potentially a threat. Mewtwo's biggest flaw is his lack of options to deal with character jumping in on him. He can keep MK out fairly well with D-Tilt, Confusion, Disable, and Up-Tilt and KOs us early with rage Up-Throw or Shadow Ball. His Up-Smash makes D-Air way too risky to rely on since that KOs us at like 90%. If we can't get momentum, I think we lose but if we do, it's the hard for Mewtwo to take it away so we'd win. It's interesting.

I went Mewtwo in Grand Finals last weekend and took a game off Mister Eric before I was forced back to MK (and still lost). Ban customs.

 

[W.A.C.]

Man, you really hate custom moves. Why do you hate them so much? I mean, they screw over Meta Knight badly because his customs are lousy (except HSD which I hate), but they bring so much more variety and choice into matches. Some characters have really crappy moves and that specific move can go from useless to useful just thanks to custom moves. I wouldn't even be using King Dedede much at all if it weren't for his awesome set of customs. (<3 Bouncing Gordos) They also make way more characters viable and create far more diversity at tournaments. M2W and AeroLink would probably only use Diddy Kong at tournaments if it weren't for customs.

 

[Trunks159]

I didnt think dair camping is really bad agaibst Mewtwo. Instead of dairing, just jump in the air, making him respect the dair, if he up smashes, just drop down and grab him. Luigi, and Marios up smashes are more deadly to me.

 

[Ulevo]

You probably just need to treat it the same way you do with Sheik. Sheik's forward air has a vertical hitbox to it and comes out fast, but she also has tippered up smash that kills Meta Knight really early. I wouldn't say this is a reason to not dair camp, but you need to respect the options and space properly to avoid taking free damage or dying. Mewtwo is likely similar just with a lot more openings.

 

[Katakiri]

Man, you really hate custom moves. Why do you hate them so much? I mean, they screw over Meta Knight badly because his customs are lousy (except HSD which I hate), but they bring so much more variety and choice into matches. Some characters have really crappy moves and that specific move can go from useless to useful just thanks to custom moves. I wouldn't even be using King Dedede much at all if it weren't for his awesome set of customs. (<3 Bouncing Gordos) They also make way more characters viable and create far more diversity at tournaments. M2W and AeroLink would probably only use Diddy Kong at tournaments if it weren't for customs.

Alright, here we go.

So my region (OH/KY/IN) has been testing customs and hosting custom tournaments almost bi-weekly since the 3DS game came out. So naturally, we're a lot better at customs than most other regions and much better than anyone that just plays online. So that said, you probably haven't seen the **** we've seen. And it's not just "oh I ran into this once or twice" EVERY TOURNEY we have to deal with this garbage and we're constantly getting better at abusing it for our own gain.

Recently a sizable portion of our scene (central OH, southern OH and parts of KY) have REALLY turned against custom moves. The last tourney we had, the VAST MAJORITY of players there did not had fun playing the game, and yes we asked around the whole venue. It was a very well-ran tourney but playing the game was the worst part of it. Even the TO said next tourney probably won't have customs because of this one. The best doubles team in our region (players Sai & Today, placed very high in dubs at APEX) lost doubles to a Wind God DK and Banana > Custom Up-B (KOs at 50%) Diddy Kong. They didn't get out-played and their teamwork was far above the DK Duo's, they just got out-janked. There were a number of players there that won their matches but didn't feel like they deserved the win because they got it through one of a laundry list of customs that KO at like 40% with no risk. Even winning, no one was happy. I got 2nd at that jam so it's no bias of mine, I made money despite the jank.

Pro-Customs-players will always say "well you don't like customs because your character gets worse" and I'll tell them: "Understand something: no character gets worse with custom moves. It's not like your opponent removes the B button from your controller, your character stays the same or even gets better in customs! Nah it's just that every other character gets that much better. MK and Ness go from high-tier to low mid-tier at best in customs; again not because they got worse, they still have all the moves and tools they have without customs, but everyone else got that much better! It's functionally Brawl-, "if everyone's broken, it's balanced! =D" which is real cute because customs are even worse than that. Nah, what customs slogan should be is "Hate playing actually the game? Wish the neutral game didn't matter? Let's just give everyone absurd movement options, completely risk-free moves and set-ups, and/or just a move that KOs at 50% regardless of DI! Did I mention that KO move has no landing lag! =D" Yo, let's just turn items on while we're at it, Final Smashes are TAME compared to some of these custom moves." And that's what I tell people.

I ***** about customs because I've done the research, I've done the homework, I put it into practice at tourneys, I use these customs, I play against these customs, I know how to abuse them, I know how to counter them (jank vs jank), and I showcase them to anyone that's willing to watch me play or play with me.

I'll just rattle off a few moves and you tell me if any of these are sound remotely fun to fight:
Wind God. Enough said.
His custom Up-B lets him convert a punished airdodge or a simple banana trip into a guarenteed KO starting at around 50%
"Oh that combo into Up-B didn't KO you at 30%? It's safe to spam so let's try 40%!...AHA! GOT 'EM! AHA! GO~T 'E~M!"
Has an Up-B that is a little slow-moving but traps you if you get touched (even by the start-up) and KOs MK at about 40%. It has no landing lag whatsoever.
Ice Ball essentially allows Luigi to get in for free by running past his low-lag, slow-moving projectiles (of which he can have multiple on screen), and if you get hit by the Ice ball, you get frozen and knocked away and lose stage control.
Scalding FLUDD. Mario has a frame advantage on this wide-range move. Get hit and you take damage, shield and you get grabbed no question. Completely safe to abuse.
Every small character is Brawl Wario. If your feet don't touch the ground when he grabs you, you get air-released and Marth gets a custom Up-B tipper guaranteed that KOs said small characters at 70~ish% Even sooner if he grabs you near the ledge.
Thunder Wave can chain across stage into a guaranteed Smash Attack and sets up for an infinite with other custom moves.
"****, you thought you could attack me? Nah, Plant Barrier, kid. Hope you have a sword. No? Well...RIP you." I personally abuse this one in tournaments to cheese sets off MK's bad MUs so KNOW it's a jank move.
Mega Gunman. You're gonna get shot 5 seconds after he puts it down. It basically makes it so DH can't be grabbed while it's out and he gets extra safety if he whiffs something because you get shot before you can punish
IT'S MAHVEL SPHERE BAYBEE!
Literally broken. Not balance wise (okay, yeah she's real dumb tho), but does not work as intended (works better).
I'm mad already.
Gravity Grenade. Why not? I mean they gave Diddy a free KO setup so it's only fair.
Nah, Rosalina needs a full-stage projectile tho. She's not good enough.
He's not even good. I just don't want to fight him with customs.


"Buh-Buh-...But my low-tiers get so much better with customs!" True but none of them stand a chance against any of the above (minus Toon Link) because they all get THAT MUCH BETTER THAN YOUR LOW TIER. Customs does not balance the game AT ALL, it just removes several layers of skill and divides players even further. How is anyone supposed to come to their 1st or 2nd Smash event and want to come to another one after losing to something so mindless or how can anyone expect a new player to research all these custom moves? They'd have a easier time learning every character in DOTA 2. Simplicity is not a bad thing!

And what's worse, Sakurai's team is actively attempting to balance the game for us. Not the customs metagame but the actual game and with customs remaining almost untouched patch-wise. By playing customs, we're crapping all over that good will toward the competitive scene by saying: "Nah, it ain't balanced enough. I've done almost no research on customs and I'm a completely nameless scrub at this game but I KNOW WHAT'S BEST SOMEHOW AND CUSTOMS ARE THE WAY TO GO so I'm gonna vote for customs at EVO even though I'm not going to EVO nor do I go to tournaments at all. Have fun at EVO, Katakiri! =D"
No seriously, I actively hate anyone that did that...

Nah, but you people just keep saying I'm just biased because MK doesn't have decent customs if it helps you sleep at night.
Ban customs.
[/mad]