Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[warionumbah2]

Most of them MK can handle its just that its not fun to face them. At all.

Played custom charizard the other day and the neutral was basically him spamming flamethrower and dragon rush. Two moves centralized his game plan.

Thankfully my TO is not doing customs since the patch made everything more smoother. Was gonna pick up MM but customs isn't gonna **** me over so imma stick with MK in default.

There's many other players that don't like customs, at least we tried before hating it. Not wasting my time on it.

Mewtwo can keep MK out but he gets wrecked hard bro, 80% and hes dead. We got a braindead 30% combo that works until 40%, thats mainly due to his poor design.

Anyway MU?

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's a lot of salt coming from you guys.


Customs meta is different. You must play different. You can't face Mario with the same mindset, as you need to be aware of his new tools and how they'll affect HIS game plan. Sure, Donkey Kong WANTS to abuse the Cyclone, but when he gets predictable, there are thousands of ways to avoid and even punish that. What I'm going for is that, there ARE counterplays to pretty much anything.
It's only jank when you don't know how it works.

Though I'll admit Helicopter Kick is a bit too much imo, and I never really had Doubles in mind when thinking of Customs.

But overall there is NOTHING inherently wrong with customs, impressions aside at least, opinions and subjectivity hold no water.

 

[Katakiri]

The same can be said for Items. The entire argument for customs is opinion-based. Some people think it balances the roster, others don't. Some like the way you're forced to play in customs, some like how the regular game plays. I have faith the customs debate will be resolved after EVO so I'm not too worried either way. That last post was just my overall thoughts on customs as a whole and exactly why "I" think that way.

Mewtwo can keep MK out but he gets wrecked hard bro, 80% and hes dead. We got a braindead 30% combo that works until 40%, thats mainly due to his poor design.

Anyway MU?

It's far too early to say. At first glance, most people thought Bowser was OP when the game first came out. We'll let Mewtwo pan-out more before we bother dissecting him MU-wise.

Also, as far as MU Discussions are concerned, I'd like for us to focus on reevaluating previous MUs with the new changes in mind. Some are hard to pin like Diddy but others, like Sonic, are pretty easy to call considering one of the primary reasons we lost the MU got nerfed. I'll probably touch on Diddy myself.

But next week I'll start up MU Discussion threads again with a different kind than the usual.

 

[W.A.C.]

The reason a lot of people feel it makes the roster more balanced is because it makes way more characters viable and better. Without customs, DK is probably one of the worst characters in the game. With customs, he's actually viable but not over powered because he retains a lot of his previous weaknesses. About the only character I can think of that has an insanely over powered custom move is probably the custom up special Mii Brawler has, but some top players like Dabuz and Jtails find Mii Brawler overrated as a character.

If Ness is considered low tier with customs, then low tier with customs is nowhere near as bad as low tier without custom. ZeRo considers Ness one of the top six best characters in the game and Ness players have been obliterating Diddy Kongs in NorCal with customs enabled ever since the patch came out. Also, that custom up special for Diddy Kong screws up his recovery badly, which is why a lot of top Diddy Kong players don't even bother with it. I only find it worth using in doubles. lol >_> Shiek's custom bomb also has considerably less range than her standard bomb, so she's less likely to hit with it.

Regarding the comparison to items, items are completely random and affect matches in ways that negates skill. None of the customs have proven to hurt the competitive aspect of this game anywhere near as bad as items. Though custom Villager is a nightmare for certain matchups, not gonna lie. Though Meta knight fares better against that matchup than most characters, so I could always pull him out instead of Diddy Kong who fares badly in that matchup pre-patch.

 

[warionumbah2]

Low tier is low tier, can't sugar coat it by saying "it isn't that bad" lol. Basically customs is good for people who main **** characters in default and want them to not suck, there's other reasons too but that's one of them.

I'm glad defaults will continue to be a thing since its a hell lot more convenient.

 

[Pazx]

why are we implying mii fighters have custom specials

mii fighters are custom characters

I look forward to covering the Mii Brawler matchup because that's almost certainly in our favour, it's simply not that good a character and the less people that are salty about it the better.

 

[Katakiri]

I look forward to covering the Mii Brawler matchup because that's almost certainly in our favour, it's simply not that good a character and the less people that are salty about it the better.

"This is foolishness..."

We'll get to it soon. Week after next.

 

[Katakiri]

Yo I'll be playing doubles winners finals live in a few minutes at www.twitch.tv/solecalibur

 

[warionumbah2]

Mods aren't allowed to double post.

Edit: he's literally playing now guys

 

[W.A.C.]

Low tier is low tier, can't sugar coat it by saying "it isn't that bad" lol. Basically customs is good for people who main **** characters in default and want them to not suck, there's other reasons too but that's one of them.

I'm glad defaults will continue to be a thing since its a hell lot more convenient.

Prior to the recent balance patch, Dabuz made a tier list for customs and non-customs.

The customs list had one more character under S tier, 3 more under A+ tier, one more under B tier, one less character under C tier, and D tier went away with those four characters in different spots. I don't agree with everything on that list, but a lot of people feel custom moves make more characters viable in general. My definition of high, mid, and low tier depends largely where a character places on a whole roster, not their overall viability. Because Smash 4's balance is decent, I feel most of the characters in the game are viable, including many characters I would deem low tier. In a game like Melee, I wouldn't even consider mid tiers viable because that game has such garbage balance. Personally, I consider Meta Knight solid mid tier with customs disabled but probably low mid tier with customs enabled because he only has one custom that isn't bad. Some characters have customs that screw over Meta Knight badly that otherwise wouldn't be much of a threat. DK without customs? A terrible matchup for DK. Custom DK vs. Meta Knight? Donkey Kong has a much better tornado than Meta Knight and his wind punch can make all of Meta Knight's special moves dangerous to use. I lost a stock to a custom DK last night thanks to his wind punch. lol

 

[warionumbah2]

Can't even look at that image with a straight face.

I wanna skip this custom discussion because outside of friendlies I'll never play this mode. I don't think MK is anywhere close to mid in defaults, but that's like your opinion man.

 

[W.A.C.]

Are there any tier lists out there that list Meta Knight above mid tier? I haven't seen any. A lot of players do underrated him (Jtails considers Meta Knight horrible), but I don't think he's anywhere near top ten. Regardless, I consider him viable and he's my second favorite character in the game, so I'll continue to main him. Actually, if a lot of us want to try to influence Meta Knight's public perception, maybe some of the best players here should try to fight notable players on streams? I know Jtails does streaming every Thursday night and frequently does online battles against his viewers. Maybe someone (or multiple players) here could influence his perception of that character? I'm not good with any character and my internet is super inconsistent, so I wouldn't be able to do MK justice. Maybe @ Katakiri and @ ItoI6 could join one of his streams at some point? If someone wants to fight his Diddy Kong, he'll use that character if his opponent requests it.

On a different note, I'm having a lot of issues racking up good damage with tornado. My fingers have always sucked at mashing buttons fast and there's times I don't even get 10% with tornado because of it. -_- I dunno what to do. Any specific strategies or advice of getting the most damage with tornado? Also, sometimes I'm able to kill with tornado at certain percentages and sometimes I'm not able to do it with the similar percentages and rage and whatnot. Is there a sort of sweet spot to achieving that? How can I get kills with tornado more consistently?

 

[warionumbah2]

I don't think he's top ten simply high tier, out of all of those tier lists you've seen how many play MK at a decent level? How many played a good MK? Honestly alot of players forget he's on the roster so they put him on mid because they fail to research his results and such.

Lets be honest Jtails thinks MK is bad according to you because his MK isn't all that good, he doesn't main or secondary him so its no biggie.

Only top player i can think of that doesn't think MK is bad is ZeRo, mainly because he doesn't suck when using him,played good MKs and sees his potential. But not everyone is ZeRo. Smash community tend to bandwagon top players opinions, so everyone will be influenced by the 'MK isn't viable' or 'MK is bad' players. Sad but true.

That's another problem, a character needs to go on big time streams to get recognition despite getting results else where. Not every tournament gets put on twitch or youtube.

There's no sweetspot. When tornado activates start mashing slowly then pick up the pace. Gotta hit the lab for that one, getting lower than 10% is worrying considering the max damage is 23%. It kills reliably at around 130%(weight dependant) but with rage light weights die at 120% but you MUST mash tornado really well so they get sent closer to the upper blastzone and more damage before the final hit.

Edit: if we make a skype group the MK boards will die, also I hate skype its laggy as hell. But I dont mind since MK boards arent that active and if we get a new discovery or something no one outisde the skype group will know lol. If everyone jumps on skype I will do the same.

 

[Deleted member]

Was that Skype group ever created? lol

 

[ItoI6]

i won a local going all mk yesterday and i beat phoenix (socal ranked #10) whos a sonic main in finals. no stream. felt pretty good living sonic backthrows at 120 near the ledge lol. i have a lot of trouble getting rides from san diego up to LA so i havent played at a big tourney with all of socal since before the patch but i think next week itll happen. i dont play on wifi because my dorms wifi sucks but when i go home for the summer i think ill be playing a lot more. i think mk is just inside the top 20.

 

[Trunks159]

i won a local going all mk yesterday and i beat phoenix (socal ranked #10) whos a sonic main in finals. no stream. felt pretty good living sonic backthrows at 120 near the ledge lol. i have a lot of trouble getting rides from san diego up to LA so i havent played at a big tourney with all of socal since before the patch but i think next week itll happen. i dont play on wifi because my dorms wifi sucks but when i go home for the summer i think ill be playing a lot more. i think mk is just inside the top 20.

Great to see this. Well..while most arent glad about MK's spot in people's minds, i kinda like being underestimated.
If you go Diddy or Shiek in a tourney, you'll definitely face those inevitable dittos and unless you're simply better, you'll loose. Someone like MK or the lower high tiers like Yoshi is harder to prepare against.

 

[Ulevo]

I think Meta Knight as a character is fine. I think even Meta Knight mains are potentially underestimating him even though they're aware of some of his strengths.

Is WiFi worth using? Up to this point I've neglected to use it to avoid being "trained" in laggy environments.

 

[ItoI6]

it depends on how much you play vs other people irl, but really if you only rarely against other actual people than playing wifi will help you more than whatever bad habits it gives you. i played wifi in brawl and never played offline until smash 4 and i turned out ok. wifi and offline are definitely different though, you cant get away with the same stuff.

 

[Ulevo]

So something I found interesting that wasn't worth making a thread over. Meta Knight's throws, when dealing damage to an opponent who is not grabbed, will do 3% max with down throw, 6% with forward throw, 7% with up throw, and 7% with back throw. Food for thought. The pummel stays constant at 3%. Useful to know for things like Doubles, Olimar and Rosalina.

Something also interesting I noticed is that Dimensional Cape carries momentum. For example, if you use Dimensional Cape at spot X, hold right, and wind up at spot Y, if you were to first be running when you hit spot X, you would go past spot Y. It opens up some neat options. For instance, you can run, and Dimensional Cape to grab the ledge from the exact middle of Battlefield. If you try to do this stationary you fall short.

 

[W.A.C.]

There's no sweetspot. When tornado activates start mashing slowly then pick up the pace. Gotta hit the lab for that one, getting lower than 10% is worrying considering the max damage is 23%. It kills reliably at around 130%(weight dependant) but with rage light weights die at 120% but you MUST mash tornado really well so they get sent closer to the upper blastzone and more damage before the final hit.

Yeah, the problem is that my finger joints suck hardcore so I'm the type of player who constantly screws up what I want to do because my fingers fail to execute what I want. This type of stuff happens to me pretty much every single match I do with anyone regardless of which character I use and it's infuriating, especially because I typically find fast characters the most fun. -_- Like I was just practicing reverse aerial rush with Diddy Kong for about 5-10 minutes and my fingers hurt like crazy afterwards. Then tried to practice Meta Knight's tornado and was insanely inconsistent because my thumb felt so tired and were in pain. Mashing buttons super fast have always hurt my hands, which constantly screws me up much of the time I use tornado. I dunno why they couldn't have made it where holding the button down did the equivalent of mashing it super fast.

 

[ぱみゅ]

When I have to mash buttons I don't do it with the finger alone, I basically shake my whole wrist.

 

[W.A.C.]

I do that too.

 

[FabianM]

I do that too.

Since you can't do much else in the Mach Tornado, you could also switch to your index finger. If you also do it with your wrist, I find it to be a much more controlled option and it feels a little bit more natural than flailing around with your hand (The other four fingers are in a straight angle. That automatically makes it more of a pecking movement)

 

[W.A.C.]

For whatever reason, I'm able to achieve better percentages not by trying to go as far as possible, but by trying to hit special as consistently as possible where in in training mode, most of the time I can get at least 18% unless I'm too slow. Looks like I can hit special up to ten times, then tornado stops. Hit ten times too early and tornado leaves too early. Fail to hit ten times in a certain time span and don't get enough percentage. Hmm... Well, I'm less discouraged now. lol

 

[warionumbah2]

Sakurai deliberately put the tempo needed to get max damage to prevent injuries when mashing, tbh you don't have to mash that fast. Hopefully you figure it out soon without hurting yourself, I remember going to a tournement in feb and by the time I won my first set against a ZSS player my right hand was in pain so I had to use kirby which won me the match.

When I got to the finals my hands were ****ed and I went against sonic too so I had no chance on winning. It sucked that I hurt myself over one move.

That was back when I mashed it like crazy without knowing the tempo.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

i won a local going all mk yesterday and i beat phoenix (socal ranked #10) whos a sonic main in finals. no stream. felt pretty good living sonic backthrows at 120 near the ledge lol. i have a lot of trouble getting rides from san diego up to LA so i havent played at a big tourney with all of socal since before the patch but i think next week itll happen. i dont play on wifi because my dorms wifi sucks but when i go home for the summer i think ill be playing a lot more. i think mk is just inside the top 20.

Good stuff!


Also, I went to some small tournament here in MI and got 2nd in singles with 1st in doubles. Beat a PR-level player twice. I've been getting soooo much Luigi exp recently. The tournament doesn't count for PR since it was smaller but still had a lot of fun. Both of us were just goofing off a bit haha. Nice be in a low pressure situation sometimes though. Loving all the new ideas I come with as MK each tournament.

 

[Ulevo]

Good stuff!


Also, I went to some small tournament here in MI and got 2nd in singles with 1st in doubles. Beat a PR-level player twice. I've been getting soooo much Luigi exp recently. The tournament doesn't count for PR since it was smaller but still had a lot of fun. Both of us were just goofing off a bit haha. Nice be in a low pressure situation sometimes though. Loving all the new ideas I come with as MK each tournament.

What would you and @ Katakiri rate the Luigi match up. I'd like to get some feedback on the current high/top tiers and how we stack up.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I originally felt like it was 45:55 because of how annoying it is to get inside a camping Luigi's range. But after finding the right balance and figuring out what not to do, I'm more inclined to believe it's even. It's just one of those matchups, where if you go half-assed on your approaches you're gonna get pooped on. MK does so many silly things to Luigi when he gets off stage and we can put him in terrible situations when he's above us even though he has moves like Nair.

Also I will post what "ratios" a bit later because I want to see where other MKs are on this topic as well.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think we lose to

pre patch sonic and diddy were 60:40 or worse right now i have yet to play a good sanic or diddy. Problem with the luigi MU is the fact that alot of MKs approach the MU wrong and get manhandled, i remember Katakiri being the only MK who said the MU was even.

same goes for mario who has lower damage per hit and worse mid range game but instead has better mobility, these two have stupid frame data so i wont hold back in playing like a *****.

sadly alot of members dont play against MKs so MUs tend to be dead in terms of other character board activity, the ZSS discussion was the best one we had. I lurk other boards and no one says a word some tend to pull something out their ass due to the lack of discussion. The batman is strong in MK, always in the shadows.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I feel like Sonic is somewhere between 40-60 and 45-55 in Sonic's favor. Diddy seems considerably more manageable than before. I wrestle with a ratio but it feels around 40-60-45-55 as well. Diddy pooped on us pre patch. Sonic was also pretty bad but not as bad imo. I don't know much about ZSS or Peach (we have like none in Michigan) but I could agree that Yoshi is really irritating.

 

[warionumbah2]

I've played alot of matches against a float cancelling Peach player online, i had the most wins but even then i feel Peach has a slight advantage.

Hopefully he's still on my friends list, would like to face him again. Yoshi is just stupid, he can press buttons and get hits so easily.

Hol up you use Wario now? Noice.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I've had a Wario since the release ( I played in Brawl) but decided to bring him back out this weekend. I don't remember why I stopped playing him. Wario is sooooo up my alley. He put in work this weekend right there with my MK. MK/Wario is a fun, unique character comp as well.

 

[Fye]

As someone with a solid Yoshi main in my region, I can confirm that the matchup is in their favor. This is a matchup that definitely needs experience to play well in because it's very position based. MK needs to weave around eggs and not fall for any baits or spikes.

Unlike many other characters, you can't bully Yoshi off-stage. You need to respect Fair and egg throws, but be ready to take advantage of his recovery if he uses his second jump.

While Yoshi has amazing shield pressure, shield is still a great option because of his lack of kill throws. Dair and Down B are the main shield breakers/pokers, so rolling/spot dodging are good options. The best answer Yoshi has to this is his neutral B. It can snub our shield and approach options but can be punished if we dodge on reaction. If you do get caught in the egg at high percent, it gets tricky. Some Yoshis will wait for an air dodge while others will go straight for Down B. Your best answers are Nair or air dodge out of egg.

MK needs to take advantage of every Shuttle Loop and Tornado and close out stocks quickly to prevent rage buildup. This is where d-throw to up-air 4x to shuttle loop works wonders. While Yoshi is fat, he gets KO-ed by it like everyone else. Taking them to T&C or Halberd are great choices to end their lives early. Don't get overeager with Shuttle Loop though as they can kill you with up-air if you miss.

 

[W.A.C.]

Also worth noting that perfect shielding can prevent your shield from breaking with Yoshi's down special. His down air also had additional landing lag added from the first balance patch, so Yoshi's dair isn't as safe against shield as it was with the original 3DS version. So as long as your shield isn't going to break or get poked through, you can punish Yoshi's dair pretty easily if he lands in front of you. His side special is also one of the worst side specials in the game because it can be grabbed out of shield. That's why most Yoshi players don't use side special much because it's flat out not a good move. When I play as Yoshi, I have no clue why I'm able to get people with side special so often. My guess is a lot of people just don't realize you can grab it. Also worth noting is that his custom move egg launch has left start-up lag than egg lay because egg lay was given more startup lag with the first balance patch and they didn't bring that lag over to his custom neutral special. Though I don't know why a Yoshi player would use Egg Launch over Egg Lay against Meta Knight because of his recovery options.

 

[warionumbah2]

For those who for some reason still play customs.

Spoiler: Poor Quality

That's the distance where HSD is safe on shield AND kills Luma.

 

[ItoI6]

ill post a mu chart on my impressions, also my current tier list lol

no customs

vs sheik 40-60
vs diddy 40-60
vs rosa 60-40
vs fox 40-60
vs zero suit 30-70
vs sonic 35-65
vs pikachu 50-50
vs falcon 30-70
vs luigi 45-55
vs ness 65-35
vs yoshi 35-65
vs mario 50-50
vs villager 60-40
vs megaman 50-50
vs wario 50-50
vs pit 50-50
vs dark pit 50-50
vs olimar 70-30
19) vs mk
vs duck hunt 60-40
vs greninja 40-60
vs shulk 65-35
vs ROB 50-50
vs Pac 60-40
vs Lucario 50-50
vs Peach 50-50
vs Robin 70-30
vs Toon 65-35
vs Ike 65-35
vs Falco 60-40
vs bowser jr 65-35
vs kirby 60-40
vs dr mario 55-45
vs dk 75-25
vs bowser 65-35
vs palutena 60-40
vs mewtwo 70-30
vs marth 65-35
vs lucina 70-30
vs king dedede 65-35
vs charizard 65-35
vs mr gnw 60-40
vs link 70-30
vs wii fit 60-40
vs zelda 75-25
vs samus 70-30
vs mac 80-20
vs jiggly 70-30
vs ganon 75-25

generally he has trouble with characters that juggle really well with fast uairs and fall speeds because his small jumps will still cause him to get frame trapped, characters that have better neutral games, and characters that can mash out of what should be guaranteed combos. otherwise he does pretty good i think. he ****s on a lot of low-mid tiers because they just cannot land at all basically. ive only had 2 jv3 stocks in tournament and they were both against different marth players that did not know how to land lol. i feel a lot more optimistic against sheik and diddy after the patch. i thought diddy still destroys mk but honestly i do think the patch made a big difference, definitely winnable now.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

ill post a mu chart on my impressions, also my current tier list lol

no customs

vs sheik 40-60
vs diddy 40-60
vs rosa 60-40
vs fox 40-60
vs zero suit 30-70
vs sonic 35-65
vs pikachu 50-50
vs falcon 30-70
vs luigi 45-55
vs ness 65-35
vs yoshi 35-65
vs mario 50-50
vs villager 60-40
vs megaman 50-50
vs wario 50-50
vs pit 50-50
vs dark pit 50-50
vs olimar 70-30
19) vs mk
vs duck hunt 60-40
vs greninja 40-60
vs shulk 65-35
vs ROB 50-50
vs Pac 60-40
vs Lucario 50-50
vs Peach 50-50
vs Robin 70-30
vs Toon 65-35
vs Ike 65-35
vs Falco 60-40
vs bowser jr 65-35
vs kirby 60-40
vs dr mario 55-45
vs dk 75-25
vs bowser 65-35
vs palutena 60-40
vs mewtwo 70-30
vs marth 65-35
vs lucina 70-30
vs king dedede 65-35
vs charizard 65-35
vs mr gnw 60-40
vs link 70-30
vs wii fit 60-40
vs zelda 75-25
vs samus 70-30
vs mac 80-20
vs jiggly 70-30
vs ganon 75-25

generally he has trouble with characters that juggle really well with fast uairs and fall speeds because his small jumps will still cause him to get frame trapped, characters that have better neutral games, and characters that can mash out of what should be guaranteed combos. otherwise he does pretty good i think. he ****s on a lot of low-mid tiers because they just cannot land at all basically. ive only had 2 jv3 stocks in tournament and they were both against different marth players that did not know how to land lol. i feel a lot more optimistic against sheik and diddy after the patch. i thought diddy still destroys mk but honestly i do think the patch made a big difference, definitely winnable now.

Excellent MU list, although is there any reason as to why the Falcon MU is so bad? Seems to me that this MU is no worse than 60-40 in falcon's favor because while Falcon can easily Frame trap and juggle Meta Knight, he can be edgeguarded due to his poor and linear recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

ill post a mu chart on my impressions, also my current tier list lol

no customs

vs sheik 40-60
vs diddy 40-60
vs rosa 60-40
vs fox 40-60
vs zero suit 30-70
vs sonic 35-65
vs pikachu 50-50
vs falcon 30-70
vs luigi 45-55
vs ness 65-35
vs yoshi 35-65
vs mario 50-50
vs villager 60-40
vs megaman 50-50
vs wario 50-50
vs pit 50-50
vs dark pit 50-50
vs olimar 70-30
19) vs mk
vs duck hunt 60-40
vs greninja 40-60
vs shulk 65-35
vs ROB 50-50
vs Pac 60-40
vs Lucario 50-50
vs Peach 50-50
vs Robin 70-30
vs Toon 65-35
vs Ike 65-35
vs Falco 60-40
vs bowser jr 65-35
vs kirby 60-40
vs dr mario 55-45
vs dk 75-25
vs bowser 65-35
vs palutena 60-40
vs mewtwo 70-30
vs marth 65-35
vs lucina 70-30
vs king dedede 65-35
vs charizard 65-35
vs mr gnw 60-40
vs link 70-30
vs wii fit 60-40
vs zelda 75-25
vs samus 70-30
vs mac 80-20
vs jiggly 70-30
vs ganon 75-25

generally he has trouble with characters that juggle really well with fast uairs and fall speeds because his small jumps will still cause him to get frame trapped, characters that have better neutral games, and characters that can mash out of what should be guaranteed combos. otherwise he does pretty good i think. he ****s on a lot of low-mid tiers because they just cannot land at all basically. ive only had 2 jv3 stocks in tournament and they were both against different marth players that did not know how to land lol. i feel a lot more optimistic against sheik and diddy after the patch. i thought diddy still destroys mk but honestly i do think the patch made a big difference, definitely winnable now.

Even with Pikachu? I thought others said the MU was in Pika's favor.

 

[W.A.C.]

Excellent MU list, although is there any reason as to why the Falcon MU is so bad? Seems to me that this MU is no worse than 60-40 in falcon's favor because while Falcon can easily Frame trap and juggle Meta Knight, he can be edgeguarded due to his poor and linear recovery.

He explained his reasoning in a past thread. [LINK] Personally, I find Captain Falcon to be a pain in the ass to fight against when using Meta Knight. Falcon just beats Meta Knight in many different areas and he's one of the more difficult characters to gimp because Falcon has such good gimping options of his own, plus his up special command grab doesn't help matters. This thread is a good reference on why Falcon is one of the harder characters to gimp compared to most of the cast.

 

[Ulevo]

Excellent MU list, although is there any reason as to why the Falcon MU is so bad? Seems to me that this MU is no worse than 60-40 in falcon's favor because while Falcon can easily Frame trap and juggle Meta Knight, he can be edgeguarded due to his poor and linear recovery.

This is an illusion perpetuated by old Falcon ledge play. Captain Falcon is not easy to edge guard as Meta Knight because Captain Falcon in this game has bull**** hitboxes on a lot of his moves, Falcon Dive included. That being said, I do not believe this match up is 30-70. If it was in Falcon's favor, I wouldn't be shocked, but as long as you know the specifics it's more than feasible to win. Dash attack beats a lot of Falcon's neutral options, including standing Jab. You need to make sure you don't try to punish up smash or down smash, especially on shield, unless they wiff and you're behind Falcon. Down smash covers a lot of Falcon's options at the ledge. You need to be careful with down tilt since jab will trade with it even though it comes out on frame 2 because the hitboxes miss each other. Be mindful of grabs that lead in to back throw at the ledge. Captain Falcon is not particularly known for strong kill throws, but Meta Knight's weight makes it happen. I'd rate this match up closer to even personally but I would need experience against more Captain Falcon players at a higher level.

I could see Yoshi being a problem. Hard to gimp, solid projectile we can't float over, good dash attack like ours, shield makes it impossible to poke through with Mach Tornado, solid frame data on a lot of moves.

@ ItoI6 , what about the ZSS match up do you find so polarizing. A lot of her game revolves around hit confirms with paralyzer and nair in to throw combos, all of which are hard to do against an airborne character. She's obviously fast, but what do you have trouble with.