Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Katakiri]

I'm curious @ Katakiri what tourney are you going to? Is it the "Class is Back I?" I'm heading up to Ohio this weekend for this tournament.

Yep, that's the one. If you see a black dude with a white jacket and "hair like a samurai", that's me. You can probably hear me from across the venue too spouting about how dumb custom moves are.

I also don't want MK to be braindead easy, im against sh aerials those who want it are basically asking for easy short cuts. Giving him sh aerials will lower the skill floor to stupid levels, i love playing dittos with MK because i'm able to tell if you're good or not.

I get MK dittos on FG and trust Kata they're awful, the beauty of MK is that it takes actual skill to combo. They go for poor follow ups and don't know how to use MK in neutral. If i beat a MK with my default Kirby they're doing something horribly wrong.

When the patch comes imma check everything MK has besides frame data, Mii Brawler has poor kill options he relies heavily on that spinning kick which is only threatening near the ledge. People pick the really small and light Mii so he's easy to kill, his mobility is dumb but his range is pathetic and he has a poor mans Mario bros nair.

If members start maining MK after he becomes braindead then i won't respect them it'll be clear that they're bandwagoners, but im positive he won't get buffed that much im leaning towards MK staying the same.

Mii Brawler is a threat tho. This character seems so far and beyond anyone else when it's the smallest size with customs. I feel like Hoo-Haa is the only thing that keeps it in check. It's like if Jigglypuff's air-game got strapped onto Fox.

I just played an MK on For Glory and I realize just how dumb it is to DI MK. So after a throw, if you DI away from MK and you're not at a high enough percent, you get hit by both hits of Aerial Shuttle Loop. If you DI into MK, he hits you at higher percents with Shuttle Loop than he should but only the 1st hit. So ideal DI against MK is away from the throw/dash attack and then react fast enough to DI toward MK and up to avoid the 2nd hit of Shuttle Loop.
When I figured that out, I was like "is this what I've been doing to people? This is dumb. " but then I started Up-Air chaining and I didn't care anymore. I love this character.

But I'll be right with ya when that patch drops unless I'm at work or it's Tuesday night (I've got a local tourney every other Tuesday from 5PM EST to midnight. Anyone's welcome to come btw http://smashboards.com/threads/apr-14-2015-smash-packrats-bi-weeklies-hilliard-oh.388994/). I've got an eye for frame data so I can tell if something's off right away.

 

[Trunks159]

Lets just cross our fingers that Diddy Kong and Sheik get nerfed.

 

[ItoI6]

My laptop just broke so I can't watch the twitch vids but good stuff being in the finals again fye. I'd be happy with just auto cancel sh fair but any kind of boost is welcome tbh

 

[warionumbah2]

@ ZTD | TECHnology take back what i said man, is a good teammate for in doubles. FLUDD is a literal Godsend.

Edit: Try to up throw someone and get your friend to use FLUDD just when MK is coming down, he'll forcefully suicide with his victim.

NOW IMAGINE CUSTOM FLUDD.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Haha yeah its a janky/fun team. We're still working out and brainstorming new ideas but you can expect new footage of us in the near future. And I've been putting in serious lab work with him. I intend to be one of the best MKs someday.

Also thanks we'll try that!

 

[Deleted member]

I just realized that the only person in the Meta Knight fam that I have added is Ito, lol. Would any of you guys that play online want to play me sometime? We can learn off of each other.

I also wanted to ask how you guys felt about Lylat Cruise for MK? It doesn't seem like a bad stage for him because of his amazing recovery.

 

[Superbat]

@ Katakiri I think Sakurai and the smash team will make sure to not to buff MK too kindly.. The buffs he got before were already way too kind as is. They ****ED up in brawl so I'm 99% sure they won't make the same mistakes again. @x Snoopy School before smash so I won't be on regularly until summer. Stay in school kids lol. Itol@ Zero bodying you with captain falcon's knee is the smash play of the week on EMG lol

 

[Fye]

I just realized that the only person in the Meta Knight fam that I have added is Ito, lol. Would any of you guys that play online want to play me sometime? We can learn off of each other.

I also wanted to ask how you guys felt about Lylat Cruise for MK? It doesn't seem like a bad stage for him because of his amazing recovery.

I would, but I don't have the lan adapter. And I'm not the biggest fan of Lylat. The edges aren't bad for MK, but it messes with my grabs and positioning at times because of the stage tilts. Figured this out mid-match against Diddy, but didn't harm me too much in the end. It's definitely an option but not my first.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So I recorded more of my friendlies with my training partner. Holy ****, my game has improved a lot since I starting applying the advice @ warionumbah2 gave me. I punish better now, finish strings and play my game better. I'll post em soon.

 

[W.A.C.]

If all they changed was just to make all of Meta Knight's free fall states allow him to regrab the edge, that would be great. Better hitboxes and auto cancel sh fair would be cool too, though.

 

[Jeronado]

I wouldn't mind keeping the same hitboxes as along as they cleaned up a couple of the animations a bit. Don't like having the game lie about how far MK's moves reach.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

If Fair had less ending lag and Nair were a better OoS option, I would honestly be content. Especially Fair. It's not super laggy but I think a character with 6 jumps deserves a more reliable aerial spacing tool for the neutral. Having to rely on your opponent being twitchy in response to you, or just being overzealous is lame.

 

[(Buddha)]

Hello!
-Name: Buddha (Not my real name of course!)
-Location: America, Modesto
-Talents: Drawing...Kind of..., Playing MK.
-Likes: Socializing, Meta Knight,
-Dislikes: MICROSOFT
-Goals: Becoming a smash professional, meet Mew2King.
-Other facts: I like Conker the squirrel, my favorite color is green, i love anime and i want to see a Hatsune Miku concert.

 

[Ulevo]

I feel like the only change Meta Knight will receive will be the removal of his Dimensional Cape lag retention. The only change he needs outside of that is an auto cancelled or reduced landing lag forward air, but I doubt he'll receive that.

 

[(Buddha)]

I hope ML gets buffs with Mewtwo, MK is good if you can play him. I think he is fast enough to be good. People need to try the characters, Like DK has been rising in the tier list recently because people have been playing him. Later in the games life i am sure MK will be in a higher tier.

 

[Ulevo]

@ ItoI6 , I watched your set against Zero. I play against a Captain Falcon all the time, and there was some things in that set that seemed wonky. You got a number of Shuttle Loop combos off on him, and whenever I play against Falcon they seem impossible to grab just because of his weight class. They always air dodge in time. Was this just Zero DIing poorly, or is it at specific % ranges? Also you got hit by down throw to neutral air a lot. Is that guaranteed? Or will they miss if you DI away the down throw.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

I definitely think mk is underrated because i just reallized dair, dash attack, and his godlike grab game actually give him some of the best sheild pressure in the game.(Tornado to an extent to in certain situations)Also i haven't managed to get the chance to try it in a match but would sheilded fsmash hit>tornado be a legit thing that could possibly sheild break? i mean, the low endlag on fsmash seems to make it theoretically possible albeit unlikely..

 

[AmishTechnology]

Nah, fsmash is actually punishable on shield if you do it too close because the shield stun -> shield drop lag is low enough compared to your fsmash endlag (yes I know it's short) for something like the enemy's jab or tilt. No way you're going to Tornado off that.

Yeah, dair, dash grab, dash attack are all good against shields. The problem arises for dairs when they can still outzone your dairs (e.g. Marth) and when they stop shielding and start using other wall off options (e.g. Falcon jabs, Falcon bair, Sheik fair). That's when MK has to take riskier options in the neutral like... ugh... his other aerials or running U-Smash to catch shuffls lol. Sometimes, just being patient doesn't work (such as if they're better than you, or they have the lead and they know it and they are playing with the timer, god damn Sonic). How to handle the neutral and come out on top or at least convert it into a combo is the biggest question for MK. Once we actually optimize this character, 30%+ combos are a given off any early % dash attack/grab and the rest of his traits except weight are pretty good.

 

[warionumbah2]

Later in the games life i am sure MK will be in a higher tier.

He's already high tier.

In customs DK himself isn't a threat its his move, its silly that it goes from fighting the character to fighting one move but that seems to be the powerful exploit meta in a nutshell. Once you realize how the cancel works you'll begin playing much safer, i prefer timing DK out because he relies on nothing but jank.

Also Sheik cannot safely wall us out, walking Ftilt swats Sheik away. Ftilt 2 and 3 outranging her fair especially 3 which goes in an upwards arc to cover aerial approaches.

 

[Katakiri]

You guys might get a chuckle out of these. Katakiri using customs. World gone mad.

Depending on how 1.0.6 goes, I may be using Kirby at EVO. I already consider Kirby my customs main but unless something changes, the number of MUs I like custom MK for over custom Kirby is quickly diminishing.

 

[Oblivion129]

Customs = throw out some gimicky moves lol might as well add smashballs Kappa

Seriously, though, customs are fun and I think you'd do a great job with Kirby.

 

[warionumbah2]

Use kirby against jank, but other than that I do believe your default MK would beat that DK. All your doing is fighting against his janky ass recovery not the character, the way you use MK makes HSD dangerous. Kirby makes the match shorter thats for sure because with MK you'll be playing so campy against DK due to his auto lag cancel up b.

Customs = powerful exploits

Its a good thing MK is above average.

Edit: You gotta research HARD when it comes to the jank customs provide, I'm planning on entering a powerful exploit tournament next month going only MK. Kirby doesn't do well against in the powerful exploit meta IMO, Kirby seems like the easy mode alternative but effective, he still struggles to get in CQC thus MUs that he struggles with in default will remain difficult in customs so I'll go with MK since not only is he my best character but i think his MUs are better so long as you know how to handle the jank.

Its a shame so many MKs are negative about the powerful exploit meta, mainly because MK doesn't have jank to hold his hand. I was hype about powerful exploit meta but now i'm not looking forward to it.

I would consider Meta Knight to be one of the characters that gets screwed over the most from custom moves. .

 

[W.A.C.]

Katakiri, what do you think of that custom down special and custom side special? I personally hate those custom moves, so I'm curious what you think of them. If it weren't for HSD being a decent alternative to his standard side special, I would consider Meta Knight to be one of the characters that gets screwed over the most from custom moves. Sucks too because I love custom moves, but Meta Knight's customs (outside of HSD) suck.

 

[Superbat]

Mk playing on Smash 4 Ever. http://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash He's getting beat pretty badly because the other player is more skilled than him and the Mk was pretty bad. ( vs Keitaro's falco) Lol I don't know if I should of posted this because the match is already over and the MK got bodied. At least clutchmaster Nairo is in it.

 

[Ulevo]

So I've been playing around on Duck Hunt recently, and it's basically a permanently banned stage against me in friendlies now. Essentially what I wind up doing is playing very conservative and looking for openings in neutral like usual, but fishing for Tornado opportunities and using the trees as a way to mix up the recovery. If I have the % lead, I lead the fight to the left side of the stage and I basically stay on the top trees. It's very hard to try and fight Meta Knight there because of down air camping and Tornado. In the event I get a grab, I can get a kill on the very top tree at around 80% from up throw. Even if I don't get a kill from it or I land on one of the lower trees, it sets up Shuttle Loop so that all I have to do is read the air dodge and I get a kill since they're already at the top of the screen.

I think one of the things that artificially makes Meta Knight a better character in this game than he probably should be is he has a lot of stages he does very well on. I'm finding that Duck Hunt, Halberd, and Delfino Plaza are very unforgiving if a Meta Knight takes you there.

 

[W.A.C.]

I chose Halberd and Delfino Plaza as Meta Knight a lot, but Duck Hunt? I haven't largely be cause of the higher blast zone. Maybe I should reconsider. lol The stage certain screws over projectile users a lot.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Duck Hunt seems decent in certain matchups. I would never take a Sonic or Captain Falcon user there but I would consider it in other matchups. I feel like Metaknight benefits from larger stages against characters who have weaker approach options. (and don't have blazing ground speed) Honestly, Metaknight doesn't really do bad on any of the typical legal stages. Delfino, Halberd and Battlefield seem like the "Go-To" stages. But even Final Destination has merit against opponents we can keep out better.

 

[Ulevo]

Funny enough the player I would take to Duck Hunt that bans it against me is a Captain Falcon main. I find spacing against characters that can zone break sometimes requires more stage room to adequately space against if they don't provide platforms, so I don't mind Duck Hunt in this match up. I wouldn't call it the best choice, but he still bans it because he's been cheesed too many times.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

I still find it incredibly awesome that his home stage, Halberd also benefits him a lot due to the low cieling combined with shuttle loop.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I've been struggling a lot with using MK on For Glory. The flat stages are just killing me. I try to use dash attack and dash grabs, but I just can't seem to rack up damage the way my opponents can. Is this a very common issue? Any advice?

Edit: I apologize if this was covered earlier in the thread. I don't have time to read all the way through it right now.

 

[warionumbah2]

First of all don't play FG, input delay(yes even the smallest of delay) will make MK stupidly hard to control. Characters that he usually beats will instead beat you because of this, FD is also MKs worst stage.

Its not a common issue here since its mostly mid/high level MKs on this board, don't think we struggle with damage racking.

Can you record some footage for us to see?

Lag makes it hard to use MK effectively in footsie's, it also makes Uair strings hard to do when its braindead easy to do without lag. In lag MK cannot bait as hard and his follow ups are unrewarding.

I can rip D3 to shreds offline but online with input lag on FD, you're legit screwed.

just go for nair which would deal 17%.

This is what lag does to MK, usually you can grab, pummel once, down throw into grounded shuttle loop to get 25%.

 

[W.A.C.]

FG mode + MK

Yeah, he's an nightmare to use with lag. A lot of other characters fare much better with it compared to him. Though if you manage to fight someone with little to no lag, it helps a lot. I also don't mind using Meta Knight on Final Destination, but he definitely does better with platforms.

 

[Trunks159]

I've been struggling a lot with using MK on For Glory. The flat stages are just killing me. I try to use dash attack and dash grabs, but I just can't seem to rack up damage the way my opponents can. Is this a very common issue? Any advice?

Edit: I apologize if this was covered earlier in the thread. I don't have time to read all the way through it right now.

FG mode + MK

Yeah, he's an nightmare to use with lag. A lot of other characters fare much better with it compared to him. Though if you manage to fight someone with little to no lag, it helps a lot. I also don't mind using Meta Knight on Final Destination, but he definitely does better with platforms.

Even with lag, it still shouldn't be to hard. The players simply aren't very good. Dash attack and dash grab should lead to up airs or if you're not ambitious enough, just go for nair which would deal 17%.
What is your problem? Lag? Shield grabs?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

I probably should have clarified: I'm struggling, but not losing. I don't exactly know what my win record is, but I'm guessing it's about 80%. Not great, but good, I think. The problem is that I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle a lot of the time against people who I should be beating easily.

Anyway, the lag somehow didn't occur to me. For some reason, I figured it would be equally annoying for both players. Only just realized that it's a lot more difficult to play with a laggy MK than most other characters. I keep screwing up combos that would otherwise be pretty easy. I'm just gonna stick to other characters on FG. Thanks, guys.

 

[Ras99]

This patch has me worried. Part of me thinks this patch is just going to fix jab "infinites" and nothing else. Another part thinks MK's going to get a buff he really doesn't need that could make him the new brain-dead easy character.

The only buff MK should get is less cooldown on his F-Tilt just to give him a better neutral game. Not even more range, just less cooldown. If he gets anything else too buffed, I really think MK might become the new Sheik or Diddy. He's already pretty darn close as is with his approach/combo/gimping-game. I say MK has a high learning curve but that's only at high-level play, for low- or mid-level/For Glory, MK's an easy to pick-up flowchart character. Sheik's the exact same way.

Actually, I take part of that back; he needs one more buff: Shield-Breaker Drill needs to actually break shields. It has one job. Like are you kidding me, Sakurai?

On a side note, I'm starting to really like SH F-Air. It's not nearly as punishable as I've been thinking. Very low damage tho with no follow-ups but it's decent in neutral.
Another side note, I gotta spend this week learning how works. Customs are legal at the tourney I'll be at Saturday so I don't want to get blindsided by this janky character. I'm already prepared to deal with the Wind God.

I agree: people are stupid, and they will always complain of a character (maybe only because they fail to defeat him on for glory): when Smash 4 came out, Little Mac was OP for scrubs, after they accused Rosalina, and now they are complaining Diddy. I'm not saying these characters are weak (except LM), but that people will always complain, and if the next victim will be Meta Knight...
However, I think (or hope...) he won't get buffed that much. They'll probably remove the DCape Landing lag bug, but they won't give him a fair with little lag.

Excuse me for grammatical errors

 

[Katakiri]

I doubt Cape's landing lag install will be fixed. It affects more characters than just MK. The Pits for example can cancel their Side-B landing lag with an aerial, another Side-B, arrow, or jump but they have to suffer the landing lag at some point. I think MK has the lag due to the same mechanic; we unwillingly cancel our aerial cape into the grounded version when we touch the ground before we go into end lag, yet the landing lag is still stored for the aerial version. The only way to fix that, as far as I know, is to make the aerial version lagless which isn't going to happen. Or they could make aerial cape never transition into the ground version which would be a HUGE nerf to MK if he had to go through Cape end land AND landing lag every time he used Cape in the air.

Honestly, Metaknight doesn't really do bad on any of the typical legal stages. Delfino, Halberd and Battlefield seem like the "Go-To" stages. But even Final Destination has merit against opponents we can keep out better.

Avoid Delfino like the plague. I put in my two cents in on MK's stages while helping the Falco board with the MK MU:

Due to MK's mobility and solid ground- and air-game, it's typically best for a character to go to their best stage rather than attempt to counter-pick MK. He loves platforms and semi-solid floors like Kongo Jungle's, he KOs mostly off the top with Up-B or Up-Smash so low ceilings help him, and he isn't hindered by bad ledges like Lylat's.

As for potential bans & striking,

• Smashville is actually MK's best stage in almost any MU. MK can camp the platform very well with his fantastic roll and frame 4 D-Air OoS. If Falco has momentum, MK steals it back just by landing on the platform and camping until he has an opportunity to strike.
• Battlefield is almost always great from MK since landing on a platform against MK puts any character in a very bad spot.
  
• Town & City isn't bad for MK either since he mostly KOs off the top so the lower ceiling is nice and he can still abuse the platforms just like Smashville, but Smashville's platform is more ideal.
• MK doesn't mind Lylat since it still gives him platforms to work with but the stage tilt can mess up his combos occasionally.
  
• FD/Omega is by far MK's worst stage on the entire stage roster since MK works with platforms so well that taking that option away hinders him greatly. However, I don't think there's a stage Falco's great enough on to warrant MK using his strikes/ban on anything other than FD/Omega so it's very unlikely you'll be able to go there.

Counterpick stages are where it gets hard to ban against MK since he likes a lot of stages.

• Kongo Jungle 64 is my personal favorite stage. I believe the only person that's beat me there was Boss and it was still very close at that. MK has very strong Smash Attacks so he can KO quickly even with the distant blast-zones and he has great mobility so the stage is a playground for MK. The dip in the stage invalidates most projectiles as well. Up-Air sharking and Dimensional Caping through the stage give MK some nasty ledge options as well. MK's best stage imo.
• Halberd is a mixed bag against certain characters that can KO off the top better than MK, but Falco isn't one of them. MKs will probably want to take you here for the platform sharking and low ceiling.
  
• Duck Hunt is pretty good for MK even with the high ceiling. The close blast-zones make MK's B-Air gimping and Smash Attacks even more deadly and the tree coupled with MK's frame 4 D-Air OoS gives MK a solid camping game. Landing in the tree when MK is underneath you is kind of a death sentence as well.
• Delfino is a "meh" stage for MK. The transition platform is very good for MK for the same reasons Kongo Jungle is but pretty much every other location is awful for MK. The islands, pier, umbrellas, stairs, and plaza are all just as bad as FD and the shine gate, rooftop, & pillars ruin MK's combo game. He can still play there just fine since the transitions interrupt the other characters too but I wouldn't bother banning this stage because only MK players fresh off of Brawl are going to think this stage is good for him. This is MK's worst stage next to FD only because half the time it's like Kongo Jungle, the other half is bad for MK.
• While not a bad as Delfino, Castle Siege won't be a common choice for MK. Each transformation has its upsides and downsides for MK. The rooftop is a lot like Lylat Cruise so not too in the way, the interior is great for camping platforms but MK can't gimp since there is no off-stage, and the underground is just Omega Lylat Cruise which is MK's worst stage anyway.
• Skyloft on the other hand is decent for MK. Unlike Delfino, most transformations have platforms and he can even shark underneath a few.

So against MK, it would be wise to strike Battlefield and Smashville. Your bans would be Kongo Jungle and Halberd.

Maybe I should stage a stage discussion thread. I don't think we have one yet.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

These are good things to keep in mind. I need to experiment with these more. Definitely agree about Kongo though. Thanks @ Katakiri .

Also yes you should start a stage discussion thread.

 

[LostinpinK]

I'd love a stage discussion thread!

 

[Ulevo]

Two stages I avoid like the plague are Lylat Cruise and Kongo Jungle if its legal, though I don't think Kong Jungle is that bad based on experience. On paper it just seems to be less than ideal.

 

[Pazx]

I feel like we get screwed over by Kongo a lot less than most characters, but you have to be willing to play a very lame game.