The Metronome Handoff Thread: Now with MAGUS collab + charts (aka it is now perfect)

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Jun 25, 2008
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#1
AN IDEA: METRONOME LOOPS / SONGS WITH CERTAIN RHYTHMS CAN HELP US HAND OFF

Problem: Handing off certain characters is hard. Especially the Dthrow>regrab part.

SOLUTION IN SHORT:

In order to make regrabbing from dthrow easier (basically perfect) in a handoff situation, let Magus and I do a ton of work, calculations, and action replay stuff and give you the perfect BPM to practice and excecute the dthrow regrab part of the handoff. All you have to do is match the opponent's character with the track in your ipod with the same name (correct BPM) and after a bit of getting used to, you will have a steady reference to make every handoff perfect.
Just dthrow one one beat
grab on the next.
????
profit.


Reading this tiny sh*t below is bad for your eyes. It was the original post, and it doesn't matter anymore because Magus and I did all the work and calculations you lazy eskimo bums.
Judging by the interest you took in the OP, I am probably just documenting my own work for myself, but perhaps someone will find it more interesting now that it is not mere theory.


me from a long time ago said:
Facts: Alrighttt, so the dthrow part is hard for 2 reasons. First is that the window is tiny for some characters. Secondly, every character is thrown at different speeds. This leads to several problems, including problems adjusting to different speeds one match after the next, and it just being HARD.
me from a long time ago said:


Solution: Laugh at me if you must, but this is the idea. I will first calculate the frame difference between the time I have to press down, and the time I have to press grab. The first thing we have to do is calculate throw time between start and release. This can be done at your local Magus. Here is an example:


Icees Dthrow is 36 frames normal. Marth multiplier is .87, making it 31.32 frames, round up to the next whole frame, walla 32 frames from start to release. Because we have nana ready to grab at any time, lag after the throw doesn't matter and doesn't have to be calculated.


This gives us the baseline for the entire project. However, my project's true perfection is temporarily stalled. I need one more data imput that I just can't get! I need to know how many frames before release I need to press the grab button. I don't know how I could find this out, but someone should find it out and make my dream come true. Someone said that you must grab 4 frames before Marth hits the ground. Let's assume that Marth is on the ground for 6 frames. Then, let's say it takes 2 frames for Marth to "bounce" high enough to get into grab range. This sums up to 12 frames.


I am calling the time between dthrow and grab one "GAP". 32-12 = 20. Marth's GAP is 20 frames. Good. 20 frames is .3333 of a second because the game is played at 60 frames per second. 1 / .33333 is 3.0, this is GAPs per second. Multiply this by 60 and WOOOHOOO 180 GAPs/minute.


Now, all you do is go
here and test your rhythm! (GAPs/minute =Beats/minute) After very extensive testing with eyes closed and TV muted, 185BPM results in the highest regrab rate (95%). I am willing to bet the window for Marth is larger than one frame, which explains my result. 20 a 20 frame GAP would be 180BPM, and a 19 frame GAP is 190BPM. The middle ground of these two seemed to be perfect. Calculation+Testing makes the perfect number pretty easy to find.

As I stated earlier, before testing I regrabbed Marth only 32 out of 100 times, with a few seconds of running around between each grab attempt. After these calculations, and playing the metronome at 185BPM from my computer, conducting the test in the exact same manner I regrabbed 93 out of 100 attempts, including a monster string of 47 in a row.


This can be further applied in-match by simply having on your ipod/mp3/cd player 10 minute strings of beats, each one of a certain speed that represents the perfect BPM of a certain character. They choose their character, you switch to that "song" and put one earbud in your ear. You hardly notice it's there when playing, but when you get that handoff situation, you just press down on one beat and grab on the next.
me from a long time ago said:
Tested BPMs:

Jiggz: 222fcukinfast. (>220. I need to find a faster metro. I regrab successfully by just regrabbing as fast as I can cleanly. More on Jiggs later.)

Fox:
220BPM (Not easy. I might need a faster metro for him.)

Pikachu: 211BPM (Easyyy)

Falco: 211BPM (Adjustment from 207 to 211 made this alot easier.)

Marth: 185BPM (Not the easiest. Looks like it is harder the faster it is.)

Ness:175BPM (Doesn't make sense according to the weight chart but it works.)

Peach: 174BPM (Sooooo easssyyyy.)

Shiek: 174BPM (Regrabbing sheik is sooo easy with the metronome. I made 97 of 100 grabs. Her range of grabbable BPM is so wide that I can only hope I got the GAP right.)

Mario: 160BPM (Probably the hardest so far.)

Luigi: 158BPM (Not easy.)

Dr. Mario: 158BPM (Not hard really. Still over 85% regrab rate after 30 min of practice on him)

Link: 153BPM

Captain Falcon: 142BPM

Yoshi:
141BPM

Samus: 132BPM

Ganon: 130BPM

Bowser: 115BPM


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------


So after I stewed in my own misery for a few weeks after making this post and noticing how so few ppl were interested, I asked Magus to help me by giving me exact frame "GAPs" in which every character can be regrabbed. He delivered in full. Here are the actual frame windows, along with some extra info about the green flash that I requested.

actually messaged by Magus420 said:
1) The green flash lasts 9 frames and is a generic graphical effect used when someone hits the stage without teching.

2) I tested the d-throw at 100%, without moving Nana forward, and optimum DI with that character to try and avoid Nana's grab range. At lower percents the 2nd number may be 1 or 2 higher, but basing it on 100% when it can be more difficult should give you a more helpful average to use overall.

The 2 frame hit duration on the grab gives a 2 frame execution window for the 1st air frame that you can regrab, and each regrabbable frame after that adds 1 to the window. A window of 22-23 for example means you can only get them on the exact frame they are released, so you can catch them with the 2nd hit frame of the grab by inputting it 22 frames after the d-throw, or with the 1st hit frame by inputting it 23 frames after which gives you the 2 frame execution window. If it were 22-24 you can get them on the 1st air frame or the 2nd, 22-25 on 1st-3rd, etc.


Window .Wgt - Character
-----------------------------
29-33 . 117 - Bowser
28-31 . 114 - Donkey Kong
26-28 . 110 - Samus
26-27 . 109 - Ganondorf
25-28 . 108 - Yoshi
24-26 . 104 - Captain Falcon
24-26 . 104 - Link
22-23 . 100 - Dr Mario
22-23 . 100 - Luigi
22-23 . 100 - Mario
20-21 .. 94 - Ness
19-22 .. 90 - Peach
19-21 .. 90 - Sheik
19-22 .. 90 - Zelda
18-19 .. 88 - Ice Climbers
18-19 .. 87 - Marth
17-22 .. 85 - Mewtwo
17-18 .. 85 - Roy
17-19 .. 85 - Young Link
15-16 .. 80 - Falco
15-20 .. 80 - Pikachu
13-15 .. 75 - Fox
12-15 .. 70 - Kirby
.8-11 .. 60 - Jigglypuff
.8-10 .. 60 - Mr Game & Watch
.N/A ... 55 - Pichu


Sexy right? Now I need to calculate the BPM that represents each frame gap listed above (8 to 33).
I dun that right here.

Frames: #Beats Per Minute
-----------------------------
8: 450 BPM
9: 400
10: 360
11: 327
12: 300
13: 277
14: 257
15: 240
16: 225
17: 212
18: 200
19: 189.5
20: 180
21: 171.4
22: 163.6
23: 156.5
24: 150
25: 144
26: 138.5
27: 133.3
28: 128.6
29: 124.1
30: 120
31: 116
32: 112.5
33: 109.1
----------------------

Finding an estimate BPM (aka BPM Average) for a given character:


1: Start by using Magus's table to find the exact frame window for a given character.
(lets say 22-23 for the Mario characters)

2:Then I match that with my BPM table
(22=163.6 and 23=156.5)

3: Then find the average of these two
(160.05)

4: Round to the nearest whole
(160BPM)


This is close to the correct BPM. Very close, within something like...a couple BPM depending in the character. However, it is not close enough. In the spirit of the mathematical moment, displaying this BPM error will require a chart.

This chart in particular that I made, relating Frames and BPM:



You see how the relationship is a curve? The equation is non-linear. This means that simply taking the average will not get us the best possible BPM, especially in multi-frame windows because we want an equal number of FRAMES on each side, not an equal number of BPMs which is what a simple average of those 2 BPMs gives us. The "BPM average" will ALWAYS be slightly "biased" towards the earlier frame(s). This will not leave us the maximum possible margin of error on both sides, and that is unacceptable.

What we actually have to find is the perfect "fraction of a frame" that we need to aim for. In this case, we must calculate for frame 22.5. By finding the BPM that would correlate with 22.5, we will have the largest and most equal (between pressing early and pressing late) margin of error for ourselves. This calculation is done like so:

22.5/60= .375

1/.375= 2.666667

2.666667 x 60= 160.00002 aka 160. Okay it equaled the same number in this case, but it was like 8 off for Fox, so it is worth it haha.

You've been reading through this for awhile. I've got you hard, now it's time to finish you off without any more foreplay. Here are the final optimal BPMs for every character in the mu ***** game, from fastest to slowest. (Check the tiny-print OP to see how close my tested estimates were!)



Optimal BPMs:

Mr. Game and Watch:400BPM =P, Frame window: 8-10

Jiggz: 379BPM, Frame window: 8-11 (Metro is less worthwhile for G&W/Jiggs)

Kirby:
267BPM, Frame window: 12-15

Fox: 257BPM, Frame window: 13-15

Falco: 232BPM, Frame window 15-16

Pikachu: 206BPM, Frame window: 15-20 (6 frame window makes Pika the easiest)

Roy: 206BPM, Frame window: 17-18

Young Link: 200BPM, Frame window: 17-19

Marth: 195BPM, Frame window: 18-19

Nana and Popo: 195BPM, Frame window: 18-19 (The thought of handing off another popo makes me sadface.)

Mewtwo: 185BPM, Frame window: 17-22 (Tied for easiest)

Shiek: 180BPM, Frame window: 19-21

Ness:176BPM, Frame window: 20-21

Peach: 176BPM, Frame window: 19-22

Zelda: 176BPM, Frame window: 19-22

Mario: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

Luigi: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

Dr. Mario: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

Link: 144BPM, Frame window: 24-26

Captain Falcon: 144BPM, Frame window: 24-26

Yoshi:
136BPM, Frame window: 25-28

Ganon: 136BPM, Frame window: 26-27

Samus: 133BPM, Frame window: 26-28

Donkey Kong: 122BPM, Frame window: 28-31

Bowser: 116BPM, Frame window: 29-33


And there you have it. I hate math. This was the biggest project I've ever taken on. Hopefully you find this of value.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
#2
I am adding to this constantly throughout the day. I'm also adjusting it as I get better at following the metro.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP (and you really should because this makes every Handoff automatic)

Mute your TV, get the grab, close your eyes, and without thinking about anything else, just press down directly on one beat, and grab on the next, starting with the BPM I provided above. Open your eyes. If nana grabbed, good. Now get the grab with popo, and do it again. I am serious when I say to close your eyes and mute the TV. Looking and hearing will totally screw up your timing if you are not used to doing this. All my throws were 25BPM off when watching lol.

Thanks!
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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#5
You should do this with wobbleing.

LOL I could listen to this on my ipod, heck maybe we could have fun with it and have 2 sounds for it like

sound A=throw
sound B=dair

we could all be masters of the timing of chain throws that we do depending on the match-up.

Maybe even with techs that take really good timing like SWD perfect up-B with pichu and other stuff
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#6
Haha in theory ICG. The problem is the only throws this are applicable for are Handoffs and wobbling. Handoffs are by far the best candidate because one sound repeated in the backround is all you need. It also helps tremendously. Wobbling beats would probably work too, but only when wobbling is allowed, and wobbling isn't hard.

This list is constantly changing. I need some people to help verify these numbers.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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#7
I support this. I don't know frame data well, but I bet somebody with an AR could get any miscellaneous data that you can't find elsewhere.

I actually use visual cues more than anything else to do the handoff, but it's probably better to not have to rely on those.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#8
Thanks Fly.

I'm starting to think the frame data is only needed for *true* perfection of the BPM. (Using it we could find the exact frame window and make our GAP directly in the middle of that window to allow for maximum leeway.) However, we can reach what amounts to perfection through agreement on a perfect BPM for a certain character. I already will never go back.

The characters I am having the hardest time pinning down are Fox, Falco and Marth. I don't mess up Sheik but I have no idea which BPM is perfect. Doc, who is apparently one of the hardest to do, is really not hard at all with this technique.

So, if anyone is just like "meh I'll try it for a few min" try the spacies and Marth so we can start pinning that number down.
 

ShootingStars

Smash Apprentice
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#9
hey rich this looks nice! is it for forward grab regrab or dthrow? lol
and i dont get you... you know when nana regrabs? sometimes she jabs once twice, oreven thrice then throws the character, and this throws me off

am i doing something wrong
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#10
Its dthrow. Fthrow is a matter of grabbing when the hammer hits and its the same for every character. Read the opening paragraphs.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#12
I don't know 2 sounds would be cool and I was thinking maybe it could help with your d-throw dair problems
I've said this 100 times, the only problem is that I can't shorthop the dair. The timing window on dthrow dair is easy. if you want to "do 2 sounds" do it somewhere else, but in this thread let's try to keep focused.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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#14
think PEEF if you can't sh dair you can full hop dair c-stick at the right time. That's what i do and I can do sh dair with grab in 2x.

Really KK who esle needs this kind of info? If so why don't you do it and we both know if it is pichu/down-smash related I'll help with data.

But yeah I think I alreally talked myself into helping with what you want so yeah what is it?
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#15
think PEEF if you can't sh dair you can full hop dair c-stick at the right time. That's what i do and I can do sh dair with grab in 2x.

Really KK who esle needs this kind of info? If so why don't you do it and we both know if it is pichu/down-smash related I'll help with data.

But yeah I think I alreally talked myself into helping with what you want so yeah what is it?
I thought I said this so many times it was annoying. Read the first post after the op.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#16
Perhaps this will make the list more accessable. These are songs that perfectly match the exact bpm for certain characters.

Peach/Sheik: I'll Still Kill - 50 Cent

Ganon: Shook Me All Night Long - ACDC

Falco: Someday - The Strokes

C. Falcon: Shattered - The Rolling Stones

Marth: Jump, Jive an' Wail - Brian Setzer or Whipping Post by Allman Brothers (TOO GOOD)

Dr. Mario: Lil Wayne & Gucci Mane - Steady Mobbin'

=) more to come even if I'm just posting to myself haha
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#21
But I can verify that visuals are far less reliable than a true, steady, literally infallible rhythm, especially in important tournament situations. Switching handoff timing between characters is admittedly a rough problem even for wobbles, the only ice climber that can really claim true proficciency with this technique.

I am certain that I will soon be the most proficient player with the handoff as soon as I perfect my bpm accuracy if nobody else picks this up. It will be especially evident because i will have absolutely no problems changing between characters. I will be the best at this not because I am a better player or even a good player, but because the technique works so well, and I'd be the only person using it.

It's like trying to tell the time by looking at the suns position in the sky (changing every day based on time of year, etc.) vs someone looking at their cell phone clock.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#26
Dude, PEEF, this is freaking amazing. If I make it up to POE you have to show me some of this in action.
Hey, no problem. I showed St. Louis crew this in action this weekend. I was very competitive with Darkatma's Falcon and Falco, probably winning 1/3 and taking 1-2 stocks per match with low% to death handoffs.

Now I just need to learn how to do this thing people call "spacing".
 

darkatma

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#27
looks like this stuff works really well, because I couldn't break out at all.

I tried reading through it though and found it too inaccessible to me.
that may be because I don't even know the basics of ICs chaingrabs and desynchs though.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Jun 25, 2008
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5,201
#28
looks like this stuff works really well, because I couldn't break out at all.

I tried reading through it though and found it too inaccessible to me.
that may be because I don't even know the basics of ICs chaingrabs and desynchs though.
Yeah there is no breaking out.

Just don't read the tiny print and i think it is a fun read.

Don't tell anyone about how your peach 4 stocked my icees harddd =[
 
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#36
You can JC grab her fthrow on reaction if she doesn't do it immediately. Also, at low percents, she has to fthrow instantly, so you can bank on that and just walk forward to grab. The hardest part of the handoff is having Nana grab from the dthrow. Grabbing out of the fthrow is easy.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#37
nana doesnt always fthrow quickly. i had nana jab someone 3 times after grabbing at 5%. Im pretty sure. Ill take note of that theory next time i sit down for multiple hours and practice this.

btw, jc grabbing is easier, but shortens your max handoffs to 3, maybe 4. i can fit in 6 or 7 vs most chars by walking and waiting.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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#39
Usually 3-4 regrabs is all you need to finish the stock anyway.
Yep, on most chars. Ganon needs 5 sometimes.

Did lots of handing off yesterday. Nana doesn't care what the % is, she headbutts as much as she wants. I had her do it 3 times at 4% last night. You can't count on the quick throw, you just have to be ready for anything.
 
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#40
True. But it's sooo hard to grab the insa-throw on reaction, at least with a JC grab. I guess you have to walk forward and pay attention to Nana's animation in order to cover multiple options. I can JC grab on reaction if she does any headbutts, but it's so critical to get the regrab after the insta-throw, since that happens more often.
 
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