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The Metronome Handoff Thread: Now with MAGUS collab + charts (aka it is now perfect)

Discussion in 'Ice Climbers' started by PEEF!, Mar 17, 2010.

  1. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    AN IDEA: METRONOME LOOPS / SONGS WITH CERTAIN RHYTHMS CAN HELP US HAND OFF

    Problem: Handing off certain characters is hard. Especially the Dthrow>regrab part.

    SOLUTION IN SHORT:

    In order to make regrabbing from dthrow easier (basically perfect) in a handoff situation, let Magus and I do a ton of work, calculations, and action replay stuff and give you the perfect BPM to practice and excecute the dthrow regrab part of the handoff. All you have to do is match the opponent's character with the track in your ipod with the same name (correct BPM) and after a bit of getting used to, you will have a steady reference to make every handoff perfect.
    Just dthrow one one beat
    grab on the next.
    ????
    profit.


    Reading this tiny sh*t below is bad for your eyes. It was the original post, and it doesn't matter anymore because Magus and I did all the work and calculations you lazy eskimo bums.
    Judging by the interest you took in the OP, I am probably just documenting my own work for myself, but perhaps someone will find it more interesting now that it is not mere theory.




    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------


    So after I stewed in my own misery for a few weeks after making this post and noticing how so few ppl were interested, I asked Magus to help me by giving me exact frame "GAPs" in which every character can be regrabbed. He delivered in full. Here are the actual frame windows, along with some extra info about the green flash that I requested.



    Sexy right? Now I need to calculate the BPM that represents each frame gap listed above (8 to 33).
    I dun that right here.

    Frames: #Beats Per Minute
    -----------------------------
    8: 450 BPM
    9: 400
    10: 360
    11: 327
    12: 300
    13: 277
    14: 257
    15: 240
    16: 225
    17: 212
    18: 200
    19: 189.5
    20: 180
    21: 171.4
    22: 163.6
    23: 156.5
    24: 150
    25: 144
    26: 138.5
    27: 133.3
    28: 128.6
    29: 124.1
    30: 120
    31: 116
    32: 112.5
    33: 109.1
    ----------------------

    Finding an estimate BPM (aka BPM Average) for a given character:


    1: Start by using Magus's table to find the exact frame window for a given character.
    (lets say 22-23 for the Mario characters)

    2:Then I match that with my BPM table
    (22=163.6 and 23=156.5)

    3: Then find the average of these two
    (160.05)

    4: Round to the nearest whole
    (160BPM)


    This is close to the correct BPM. Very close, within something like...a couple BPM depending in the character. However, it is not close enough. In the spirit of the mathematical moment, displaying this BPM error will require a chart.

    This chart in particular that I made, relating Frames and BPM:

    [​IMG]

    You see how the relationship is a curve? The equation is non-linear. This means that simply taking the average will not get us the best possible BPM, especially in multi-frame windows because we want an equal number of FRAMES on each side, not an equal number of BPMs which is what a simple average of those 2 BPMs gives us. The "BPM average" will ALWAYS be slightly "biased" towards the earlier frame(s). This will not leave us the maximum possible margin of error on both sides, and that is unacceptable.

    What we actually have to find is the perfect "fraction of a frame" that we need to aim for. In this case, we must calculate for frame 22.5. By finding the BPM that would correlate with 22.5, we will have the largest and most equal (between pressing early and pressing late) margin of error for ourselves. This calculation is done like so:

    22.5/60= .375

    1/.375= 2.666667

    2.666667 x 60= 160.00002 aka 160. Okay it equaled the same number in this case, but it was like 8 off for Fox, so it is worth it haha.

    You've been reading through this for awhile. I've got you hard, now it's time to finish you off without any more foreplay. Here are the final optimal BPMs for every character in the mu ***** game, from fastest to slowest. (Check the tiny-print OP to see how close my tested estimates were!)



    Optimal BPMs:

    Mr. Game and Watch:400BPM =P, Frame window: 8-10

    Jiggz: 379BPM, Frame window: 8-11 (Metro is less worthwhile for G&W/Jiggs)

    Kirby:
    267BPM, Frame window: 12-15

    Fox: 257BPM, Frame window: 13-15

    Falco: 232BPM, Frame window 15-16

    Pikachu: 206BPM, Frame window: 15-20 (6 frame window makes Pika the easiest)

    Roy: 206BPM, Frame window: 17-18

    Young Link: 200BPM, Frame window: 17-19

    Marth: 195BPM, Frame window: 18-19

    Nana and Popo: 195BPM, Frame window: 18-19 (The thought of handing off another popo makes me sadface.)

    Mewtwo: 185BPM, Frame window: 17-22 (Tied for easiest)

    Shiek: 180BPM, Frame window: 19-21

    Ness:176BPM, Frame window: 20-21

    Peach: 176BPM, Frame window: 19-22

    Zelda: 176BPM, Frame window: 19-22

    Mario: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

    Luigi: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

    Dr. Mario: 160BPM, Frame window: 22-23

    Link: 144BPM, Frame window: 24-26

    Captain Falcon: 144BPM, Frame window: 24-26

    Yoshi:
    136BPM, Frame window: 25-28

    Ganon: 136BPM, Frame window: 26-27

    Samus: 133BPM, Frame window: 26-28

    Donkey Kong: 122BPM, Frame window: 28-31

    Bowser: 116BPM, Frame window: 29-33


    And there you have it. I hate math. This was the biggest project I've ever taken on. Hopefully you find this of value.
     
    BESTFOXMAIN likes this.
  2. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    I am adding to this constantly throughout the day. I'm also adjusting it as I get better at following the metro.

    IF YOU WANT TO HELP (and you really should because this makes every Handoff automatic)

    Mute your TV, get the grab, close your eyes, and without thinking about anything else, just press down directly on one beat, and grab on the next, starting with the BPM I provided above. Open your eyes. If nana grabbed, good. Now get the grab with popo, and do it again. I am serious when I say to close your eyes and mute the TV. Looking and hearing will totally screw up your timing if you are not used to doing this. All my throws were 25BPM off when watching lol.

    Thanks!
     
    BESTFOXMAIN likes this.
  3. Vanitas

    Vanitas
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    Interesting read, i ll give it a shot later :)
    thanks for the research lol

    all in all metronomes can help us with this the same way with wobbling?
     
  4. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Certainly!

    There may be even more applications.
     
  5. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    You should do this with wobbleing.

    LOL I could listen to this on my ipod, heck maybe we could have fun with it and have 2 sounds for it like

    sound A=throw
    sound B=dair

    we could all be masters of the timing of chain throws that we do depending on the match-up.

    Maybe even with techs that take really good timing like SWD perfect up-B with pichu and other stuff
     
  6. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Haha in theory ICG. The problem is the only throws this are applicable for are Handoffs and wobbling. Handoffs are by far the best candidate because one sound repeated in the backround is all you need. It also helps tremendously. Wobbling beats would probably work too, but only when wobbling is allowed, and wobbling isn't hard.

    This list is constantly changing. I need some people to help verify these numbers.
     
  7. Fly_Amanita

    Fly_Amanita
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    Master of Caribou

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    I support this. I don't know frame data well, but I bet somebody with an AR could get any miscellaneous data that you can't find elsewhere.

    I actually use visual cues more than anything else to do the handoff, but it's probably better to not have to rely on those.
     
    BESTFOXMAIN likes this.
  8. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Thanks Fly.

    I'm starting to think the frame data is only needed for *true* perfection of the BPM. (Using it we could find the exact frame window and make our GAP directly in the middle of that window to allow for maximum leeway.) However, we can reach what amounts to perfection through agreement on a perfect BPM for a certain character. I already will never go back.

    The characters I am having the hardest time pinning down are Fox, Falco and Marth. I don't mess up Sheik but I have no idea which BPM is perfect. Doc, who is apparently one of the hardest to do, is really not hard at all with this technique.

    So, if anyone is just like "meh I'll try it for a few min" try the spacies and Marth so we can start pinning that number down.
     
    BESTFOXMAIN likes this.
  9. ShootingStars

    ShootingStars
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    Smash Apprentice

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    hey rich this looks nice! is it for forward grab regrab or dthrow? lol
    and i dont get you... you know when nana regrabs? sometimes she jabs once twice, oreven thrice then throws the character, and this throws me off

    am i doing something wrong
     
  10. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Its dthrow. Fthrow is a matter of grabbing when the hammer hits and its the same for every character. Read the opening paragraphs.
     
  11. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    I don't know 2 sounds would be cool and I was thinking maybe it could help with your d-throw dair problems
     
  12. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    I've said this 100 times, the only problem is that I can't shorthop the dair. The timing window on dthrow dair is easy. if you want to "do 2 sounds" do it somewhere else, but in this thread let's try to keep focused.
     
  13. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    I'm jealous of how much information Ice Climber players have readily available to them.

    You guys are very fortunate to have this kind of stuff, IMO.
     
  14. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    think PEEF if you can't sh dair you can full hop dair c-stick at the right time. That's what i do and I can do sh dair with grab in 2x.

    Really KK who esle needs this kind of info? If so why don't you do it and we both know if it is pichu/down-smash related I'll help with data.

    But yeah I think I alreally talked myself into helping with what you want so yeah what is it?
     
  15. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    I thought I said this so many times it was annoying. Read the first post after the op.
     
  16. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Perhaps this will make the list more accessable. These are songs that perfectly match the exact bpm for certain characters.

    Peach/Sheik: I'll Still Kill - 50 Cent

    Ganon: Shook Me All Night Long - ACDC

    Falco: Someday - The Strokes

    C. Falcon: Shattered - The Rolling Stones

    Marth: Jump, Jive an' Wail - Brian Setzer or Whipping Post by Allman Brothers (TOO GOOD)

    Dr. Mario: Lil Wayne & Gucci Mane - Steady Mobbin'

    =) more to come even if I'm just posting to myself haha
     
  17. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY
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    LOL falcon the rolling stones
     
  18. SoiGreg

    SoiGreg
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    Smash Journeyman

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    Can someone please expain to me why wobbling is ban?
     
  19. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Because it's not as good as what is in this thread.
     
  20. Throwdown8bit

    Throwdown8bit
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    i think visuals are better :/, espically if your playing a game that matters lol
     
  21. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    But I can verify that visuals are far less reliable than a true, steady, literally infallible rhythm, especially in important tournament situations. Switching handoff timing between characters is admittedly a rough problem even for wobbles, the only ice climber that can really claim true proficciency with this technique.

    I am certain that I will soon be the most proficient player with the handoff as soon as I perfect my bpm accuracy if nobody else picks this up. It will be especially evident because i will have absolutely no problems changing between characters. I will be the best at this not because I am a better player or even a good player, but because the technique works so well, and I'd be the only person using it.

    It's like trying to tell the time by looking at the suns position in the sky (changing every day based on time of year, etc.) vs someone looking at their cell phone clock.
     
  22. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Bump because this thread is now complete.
     
  23. ChivalRuse

    ChivalRuse
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    Ah! That frame window data is really useful.
     
  24. Vts

    Vts
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    Sticky for being pro.
     
  25. BunBun

    BunBun
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    Dude, PEEF, this is freaking amazing. If I make it up to POE you have to show me some of this in action.
     
  26. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Hey, no problem. I showed St. Louis crew this in action this weekend. I was very competitive with Darkatma's Falcon and Falco, probably winning 1/3 and taking 1-2 stocks per match with low% to death handoffs.

    Now I just need to learn how to do this thing people call "spacing".
     
  27. darkatma

    darkatma
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    Smash Hero

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    looks like this stuff works really well, because I couldn't break out at all.

    I tried reading through it though and found it too inaccessible to me.
    that may be because I don't even know the basics of ICs chaingrabs and desynchs though.
     
  28. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Yeah there is no breaking out.

    Just don't read the tiny print and i think it is a fun read.

    Don't tell anyone about how your peach 4 stocked my icees harddd =[
     
  29. BunBun

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    Oh man Peef, if you hate Peach, you're going to hate me.
     
  30. ChivalRuse

    ChivalRuse
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    Peach is pretty dumb. It's my goal right now to learn that match-up.
     
  31. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    There's a Fox for that.
     
  32. Ripple

    Ripple
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    ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····

    • Premium
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    does that fox happen to be able to take out Roy?

    idts
     
  33. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    idtse. Rippleroy 2good against fastfallers.
     
  34. BunBun

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    Peeeeeef, no *****ing out of it this time. $5 MM Peach v Fox at POE 3 =3
     
  35. GofG

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    I'm confused. Doesn't this get ****ed up by nana jabbing a random number of times?
     
  36. ChivalRuse

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    Smash Hero

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    You can JC grab her fthrow on reaction if she doesn't do it immediately. Also, at low percents, she has to fthrow instantly, so you can bank on that and just walk forward to grab. The hardest part of the handoff is having Nana grab from the dthrow. Grabbing out of the fthrow is easy.
     
  37. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    nana doesnt always fthrow quickly. i had nana jab someone 3 times after grabbing at 5%. Im pretty sure. Ill take note of that theory next time i sit down for multiple hours and practice this.

    btw, jc grabbing is easier, but shortens your max handoffs to 3, maybe 4. i can fit in 6 or 7 vs most chars by walking and waiting.
     
  38. ChivalRuse

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    Smash Hero

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    Usually 3-4 regrabs is all you need to finish the stock anyway.
     
  39. PEEF!

    PEEF!
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    Smash Hero

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    Yep, on most chars. Ganon needs 5 sometimes.

    Did lots of handing off yesterday. Nana doesn't care what the % is, she headbutts as much as she wants. I had her do it 3 times at 4% last night. You can't count on the quick throw, you just have to be ready for anything.
     
  40. ChivalRuse

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    Smash Hero

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    True. But it's sooo hard to grab the insa-throw on reaction, at least with a JC grab. I guess you have to walk forward and pay attention to Nana's animation in order to cover multiple options. I can JC grab on reaction if she does any headbutts, but it's so critical to get the regrab after the insta-throw, since that happens more often.
     

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